Are the Tau a threat to anyone?

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Post by NecronLord »

Connor MacLeod wrote:True, although if that's the case why haven't they tried already? The Tau know what psykers are and use them (They used them to scan the minds of non-tau/human recruits in "kill team") and they would almost certainly have to be aware of how humanity uses Psykers (astrophaths and battle psykers, the latter which IIRC they haven't bothered with either.)
It's unlikely they trust a non-Tau race with their communications, when their courier ships are effective enough to be practical at present.
There's also the little matter of whether they have an analogue to soul binding (which IIRC is a key bit to astropaths and sanctioned psykers and the like) - if they started using them this way I'd have to wonder at the risks of corruption and whatnot.
Soul binding is necessary for run of the mill human psykers. However, the lack of the Nicassar being possessed by chaos already indicates that they're comparatively stable, like the eldar, better human psykers, squat psykers, krork weirdboyz, and so forth.
This also presumes they have any sort of telepathy. from the way the Nicassar are described the TK abilities they have are more a specialized, innate "required" power (its how they move.) If they are telepathic, this does not neccesarily mean they're strong enough to provide the sort of communication astropaths do (IIRC Astropaths are a very particular degree/kind of psyker.)
Not at all. Astropaths are most of the human psykers that don't get eaten by the Emperor. It's fairly basic, even if the training isn't.
Something tells me they either tried and its failed (for now) or they just lack what is required for astrophathic communication (power, training, etc.) Same for any sort of "sanctioned psyker/battle psyker" analogue.
They've not had the time or inclination to develop a system of astropaths. They're likely in for more nasty surprises if they try.
They can also already navigate through the warp via warp gates (Kill Team), so they could arguably enter and navigate the warp in theory, but for some reason they don't seem to use this very often.
Without the navigator gene, it would give them very little advantage. Presumably the Ork trait of getting where they want to go is something gestalt, while it might work for Kroot, it may not be practical for Tau. And without that, there's little advantage in 'full immersion' compared to their existing drives - both peter out after four light years, and the former comes with much greater risks
Well the beacon network is an obvious limitation, since it limits them to established routes and can be something the Imperium or others could easily hamper.

In any case, even if they DID develop a Navigator analogue, they probably wouldn't be able to travel any great distances without an astronomicon equivalent (or by being able to use the Astronomicon itself.) - IIRC not even the Eldar have an easy time navigating the warp for any great distances the way Navigators do (they're limited to fairly short-distance jumps too and have to use the Webway for fast long range travel.)
The eldar are also likely short range because they attract demons like a flourescent bulb attracts moths and flies. Orks, in comparison, do have a navigator analogue, somehow.

In terms of the Nicassar, we don't know if they can function as navigators - they certainly don't navigate on their own (and the Tau haven't bothered or even seem to have tried using them in that way yet.)
Tau drives aren't as bad as people think. While developing a full warp drive would be trivial, as I said, developing a navigator replacement... really wouldn't. There's a mini-story in Xenology about another race attempting to subvert Navigators. The Imperium immediately reacts to anyone it finds doing that... badly.
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Post by Starglider »

Necrons seem to have ridiculously fast FTL without needing to enter the warp. The Tau are the only species that seem to be dedicating a lot of time to applied research and technological advancement (and sustaining that effort, unlike the odd genius Ork mechboy - the Tyranids are probably limited in what they can do due to their organic-only tech base). Do they have a chance of developing whatever the Necrons use, or does that rely on some arcane secret of the universe that can only be learned from the C'tan and similar
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Post by NecronLord »

Starglider wrote:Do they have a chance of developing whatever the Necrons use, or does that rely on some arcane secret of the universe that can only be learned from the C'tan and similar
The Necrontyr civilisation is between several hundred million and nine billion years old. The chances of the Tau ever catching up to their technology are basically nonexistant, let alone in a measurable timeframe.
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Post by Starglider »

NecronLord wrote:The Necrontyr civilisation is between several hundred million and nine billion years old. The chances of the Tau ever catching up to their technology are basically nonexistant, let alone in a measurable timeframe.
Technological progress isn't a simple linear process. AFAIK, the Necrontyr already had their current FTL technology as of the 'war in heaven' that turned them into Necrons. Most of the time since has been spent in stasis. The Necrons used cryogenic sleeper ships at some point not too long before they started worshipping the C'tan, so the time window in which they went from 'rather less advanced than the Tau' to 'way beyond the Tau' can't be that long. Even if you know the size of the critical period, you can't directly compare unless you know that the rate of progress and general methodology matches. Ideally you'd look at the actual discoveries and refinements that need to be made; unfortunately we have nowhere near the detail to do that, but I was wondering if there was a reference somewhere to the C'tan handing out knowledge that would give a definitive 'no, they'll never catch up, at least not unless they start worshipping immortal ethereal star-gods as well'.
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Post by NecronLord »

Starglider wrote:Technological progress isn't a simple linear process.
And it stretches credibility beyond breaking that a multi-billion year civilisation who're described as wholly devoted to science could be outdone in a few millennia by the Tau.
AFAIK, the Necrontyr already had their current FTL technology as of the 'war in heaven' that turned them into Necrons.
Unknown. It can be inferred from the text that it was developed when the C'tan showed up, but there is nothing conclusive.
Most of the time since has been spent in stasis. The Necrons used cryogenic sleeper ships at some point not too long before they started worshipping the C'tan, so the time window in which they went from 'rather less advanced than the Tau' to 'way beyond the Tau' can't be that long.
You're assuming that their sleeper ships weren't a match in any other way. If you don't want to or don't have the ability to use the warp, what else do you have? This is a style over substance fallacy. Just because they used sub-light ships, doesn't mean their understanding of the sciences neccessary to an inertialess drive was anywhere the same as the Tau's.

Sleeper ships were presumably a safe, comparatively proven technology, compared to the Tau's system, which involves skirting the dimension that was at the time pretty much buttoned up by the Necrontyr's enemy.

What's more, the information is so sketchy that precise dating of the invention of inertialess drive is impossible. The Necrontyr used 'slow burning torchships' when they left their homeworld. How long they used them for is not known, merely that by the time of the C'tan's attack on the old ones, they had FTL to cross the galaxy in a blink. Whether this was a sudden development or a slow refinement is speculation.
Even if you know the size of the critical period, you can't directly compare unless you know that the rate of progress and general methodology matches.
There's numerous references to the necrontyr 'putting their faith in science' and a strong inference that only numbers and speed were letting the Old Ones defeat them.
Ideally you'd look at the actual discoveries and refinements that need to be made; unfortunately we have nowhere near the detail to do that, but I was wondering if there was a reference somewhere to the C'tan handing out knowledge that would give a definitive 'no, they'll never catch up, at least not unless they start worshipping immortal ethereal star-gods as well'.
No. And it's also utterly preposterous that the Tau could replicate whatever the Necrontyr did in a few thousand years. Especially given that no other race in the history of the universe has managed it. Let alone the centuries they'd have at best before the tyranids overwhelm them.
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Post by Starglider »

Starglider wrote:And it's also utterly preposterous that the Tau could replicate whatever the Necrontyr did in a few thousand years. Especially given that no other race in the history of the universe has managed it. Let alone the centuries they'd have at best before the tyranids overwhelm them.
Ok, thanks. The WH40K setting sounds like it's improved a lot since I stopped playing the game/buying the books (circa 1995), but it'd be a lot of time and money to get up to date on everything and I have a big stack of unread books as it is. So I'm still fuzzy on some of the details of the new races.
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Re: Are the Tau a threat to anyone?

Post by PainRack »

Stravo wrote:When I think of the various factions of the 40Kverse I always view them as a threat leel vs. Imperium of Man. The Orks are obviously a galaxy spoanning threat, holding worlds deep within the Imperium and challenging the best that the Imperium can offer.
A bit off topic here, but are the Orks a galaxy spanning threat, one that can end the Imperium, or more of a never-ending thorn in the flesh that is festering?

I mean, its not likely that an Ork Waagh will literally end the Imperium. It has been mentions in the fluff that an Ork Waagh has threatened Earth before, but I imagine that's the kind of "I'm going to invade Earth, waaah, I got my fleet smashed by the combined forces of Mankind best and finest!"

It appears that they're more of an galactic irritant, something like psoarsis I guess. A skin disease that cause your entire skin to flake off, isn't lethal in and by itself, but causes massive itchiness and discomfort and can potentially open you up to infection if you scratch it too much.
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Re: Are the Tau a threat to anyone?

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

PainRack wrote:
Stravo wrote:When I think of the various factions of the 40Kverse I always view them as a threat leel vs. Imperium of Man. The Orks are obviously a galaxy spoanning threat, holding worlds deep within the Imperium and challenging the best that the Imperium can offer.
A bit off topic here, but are the Orks a galaxy spanning threat, one that can end the Imperium, or more of a never-ending thorn in the flesh that is festering?

I mean, its not likely that an Ork Waagh will literally end the Imperium. It has been mentions in the fluff that an Ork Waagh has threatened Earth before, but I imagine that's the kind of "I'm going to invade Earth, waaah, I got my fleet smashed by the combined forces of Mankind best and finest!"

It appears that they're more of an galactic irritant, something like psoarsis I guess. A skin disease that cause your entire skin to flake off, isn't lethal in and by itself, but causes massive itchiness and discomfort and can potentially open you up to infection if you scratch it too much.
Partially true, except that the ORks uniting whole scale have been stated to be enough to overwhelm The IoM and Nid fleets in our galaxy through sheer weight of numbers and power. Fortunately they aren't united. (No one mention the name Ghazhkull Uruk Thraka :wink: ).
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Post by NecronLord »

They're a galactic scale threat. They're not liable to end the Imperium any time soon, though.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

NecronLord wrote:They're a galactic scale threat. They're not liable to end the Imperium any time soon, though.
Do you mean the Orks or Tau?
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Post by NecronLord »

DEATH wrote:
NecronLord wrote:They're a galactic scale threat. They're not liable to end the Imperium any time soon, though.
Do you mean the Orks or Tau?
I would have thought it would be obvious. The Orks of course. They're present and engaged in hostile acts on the galactic scale, thus a galactic scale threat.
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Re: Are the Tau a threat to anyone?

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DEATH wrote:Partially true, except that the ORks uniting whole scale have been stated to be enough to overwhelm The IoM and Nid fleets in our galaxy through sheer weight of numbers and power. Fortunately they aren't united. (No one mention the name Ghazhkull Uruk Thraka :wink: ).
The other fun part, is the recent Tyranid Codex, where they steered a Hive Fleet towards a known Ork infested region (aka Imperial ships don't even go there). The result was that the Orks in that area are getting into fights with the Tyranids, and the Tyranids are altering course to deal with the problem.

The Imperial fleet is happy to sit back and watch the two forces smash each other down. Even better, was that the region originally targeted would have been cut off from the Imperium, to be digested at the Tyranids' leisure.

The Inquisition is looking forward a few centuries, and is thinking about the results when one side wins. Either super-sized Orks, fresh from winning a major war againat a major opponent, and eager to find new opponents, or a Tyranid Hive Fleet that has absorbed Ork DNA (which has hard-coded technological information), and the sheer biomass of all those Orks. Either option is considered a Really Bad Thing.
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

What do the Farseers think of it?
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Battlehymn Republic wrote:What do the Farseers think of it?
That imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? :lol:

Some Tyranids have already gotten their claws on orkoid genetic material and the rest were going to get it already, given the way orks are spread out through the galaxy and perhaps beyond that. It's a good move by the Imperium although yes, they are trading two big and nasty problems for a big and really nasty problems.
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Post by Flameblade »

The Inquisition is looking forward a few centuries, and is thinking about the results when one side wins. Either super-sized Orks, fresh from winning a major war againat a major opponent, and eager to find new opponents, or a Tyranid Hive Fleet that has absorbed Ork DNA (which has hard-coded technological information), and the sheer biomass of all those Orks. Either option is considered a Really Bad Thing.
Well it had been stated in the third edition Tyranid Codex that Zoanthropes were engineered based off of Eldar genetic samples, Biovores were based off of Ork genetic samples and that Tyrant Guard were based off of Astartes gene-seed samples. I would think that if Tyranids were ever going to develop orky technology, they would have displayed some of it by now. Even without any orky technologies, the hive fleet that survived that sort of war would be something of nightmares.

I'm a bit more interested in what they would make out of Tau genotypes. The different castes and their respective differences could be quite useful to the hive.

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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Yeah, they do dramatically imply that the whole "Tyranid fighting Ork" thing could be a major danger to the Imperium, but I think its probably over-estmated unless they fail to plan for it. Kryptman's established tactics of "Biomass Denial" against the TYranids woudl work REALLY well when deployed against the Ork/Tyranid threat once a clear victor is assured there. (Hell, according to Tactica Imperialis, one Imperial commander used sucha tactic on the Tyranids after letting the 'nids wipe out a Rebel-infested planet. I don't see why it wouldn't work with the Orks.)
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Post by Miranda Keyes »

The main threat of the Tau is actually threefold, and the second and third paths are the scarier ones.

1. They are rapidly developing technology and are now past the Imperium in terms of nerd-tech. (Excluding mage-tech). They don't have the warp, but railguns kick all kinds of ass.

2. They preach a message that is pretty good once you get past Imperium conditioning. They are the only group likely to gain followers as they go (except Chaos).

-And, for the Imperium, worst of all-

3. They are not dependent on the Warp. The fifth Chaos god (name eludes me) is planning, like the C'Tan, to close the warp, killing all the other Chaos gods in the process. (The C'Tan don't want the interruption, the 5th god is really off the deep end.) Every race in Warhammer 40k except the Tau need the Warp to get around, and the Tau are working on more conventional FTL travel. When the Warp goes down, and it probably will, then the Tau will be the only ones left moving around freely. Imagine the Imperium scattered among its myriad worlds. The Tau could move freely around and pick them off without ever having to worry about such pesky concepts as reinforcements. What you (Tau) see is what they (others) got.

I think they're not a threat until the Void Dragon, the other C'Tan, or the fifth god (could be Moloch) does his part. Then their time will come. Oh well, at least they won't be as scary to live with.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Miranda Keyes wrote:The main threat of the Tau is actually threefold, and the second and third paths are the scarier ones.

1. They are rapidly developing technology and are now past the Imperium in terms of nerd-tech. (Excluding mage-tech). They don't have the warp, but railguns kick all kinds of ass.
I'm sure Necron will be here soon enough, but suffice to say this a commonly held misconception. Imperial technology is still well ahead of Tau technology.

2. They preach a message that is pretty good once you get past Imperium conditioning. They are the only group likely to gain followers as they go (except Chaos).
Except the vast majority of the rest of the universe won't listen because they are brainwashed not to think about such things, or honestly belive their way of life is far superior, or just don't care.

-And, for the Imperium, worst of all-

3. They are not dependent on the Warp.
Which is as much a DISADVANTAGE as an advantage as it grossly limits their strategic scope and mobilityl

The fifth Chaos god (name eludes me) is planning, like the C'Tan, to close the warp, killing all the other Chaos gods in the process.
There is no Fifth Chaos God
/waves hand with GW glove on it like a Jedi

(The C'Tan don't want the interruption, the 5th god is really off the deep end.)
Err the C'Tan are very much interested in closing off the Warp from realspace and are restarting their great project towards those ends...

Every race in Warhammer 40k except the Tau need the Warp to get around, and the Tau are working on more conventional FTL travel.
The Necrons/C'Tan's vastly superior FTL system doesn't

When the Warp goes down, and it probably will, then the Tau will be the only ones left moving around freely.
Wrong. Their FTL drive ALSO relies on the warp, skipping off the barrier between the warp and realspace. Make that inaccessable by cutting the warp off from realspace and the Tau are just as boned as everyone else (bar the necrons anyway).

*snip*
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Post by white_rabbit »

2. They preach a message that is pretty good once you get past Imperium conditioning. They are the only group likely to gain followers as they go (except Chaos).
Pick five worlds from the Imperium. The chances are that their combined population is greater than the entire Tau empire.

As for their "message" " For the Greater Good" isn't exactly too far from "The End justifies the Means".
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Post by Norseman »

By the way... I'm a little confused here about the Taus tactics:

It's said that they often invade and assimilate worlds into the Greater Good. It's also said that they persuaded several planetary governors to join the Empire.

So basically do they try to assimilate a world entirely? Or do they allow the worlds they take internal autonomy provided that they serve the Greater Good? Or something in between? Or are some worlds treated differently from others?

An inquiring mind wants to know!
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Post by NecronLord »

Miranda Keyes wrote:1. They are rapidly developing technology and are now past the Imperium in terms of nerd-tech. (Excluding mage-tech). They don't have the warp, but railguns kick all kinds of ass.
Their technology is better applied, they don't surpass the Imperium as a rule. Imperial ships possess railgun batteries, for example. Another example of this; the Tau completely lack teleporter technology - there's a part in the novel of Fire Warrior where the bridge crew of a Tau ship all stand aroud gawping when Space Marines step onto their bridge from nowhere. It is more accurate to say that the Tau understand and apply their technology well; the Imperium has most-everything they do.
They are the only group likely to gain followers as they go (except Chaos).
Enslaver enslavement, Genestealer cults, C'tan cults, Dark Eldar-cults (See Eisenhorn), Ork slaves and natural reporoduction, Tyranid re-use of absorbed material.

That'll do for a starter list

-And, for the Imperium, worst of all-

3. They are not dependent on the Warp.
Their FTL is warp dependant
The fifth Chaos god (name eludes me) is planning, like the C'Tan, to close the warp, killing all the other Chaos gods in the process. (The C'Tan don't want the interruption, the 5th god is really off the deep end.)
Malal. He is no longer part of the 40K canon in any realistic sense, as Games Workshop no longer have legal permission to use him. The Sons of Malice space marines show up now and then, but that's it. He's nothing compared to the other four, or the C'tan. Also, you just made that up, he too is a warp-god, and while he wants rid of the others, he's not suicidal to our knowledge.
Every race in Warhammer 40k except the Tau need the Warp to get around, and the Tau are working on more conventional FTL travel.
If by 'more conventional' you mean 'more warpdy' yes, that's where their research was taking them at last count. The necrons have non-warp FTL, which is very good. The Tau do not, they have 'quasi-warp' travel.
When the Warp goes down, and it probably will, then the Tau will be the only ones left moving around freely. Imagine the Imperium scattered among its myriad worlds. The Tau could move freely around and pick them off without ever having to worry about such pesky concepts as reinforcements. What you (Tau) see is what they (others) got.
Just plain wrong.
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Post by andrewgpaul »

I don't think Malal wa ever part of 40K canon. The only references to Malal I've ever seen was in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition, which (IIRC) predates even Rogue Trader. WFRP1 Featured the Life, Death and Plague 'elementals', more properly known as Greater Daemons of Khorne, Law* and Nurgle, plus mention of Malal. The 'Death Elemental' was basically a 10' Grim Reaper, and the Plague Elemental looked like a zombie troll. All of this stuff was erased from fantasy canon when the Realms of Chaos books came out. They were never part of 40K canon, since RT only featured generic 'warp demons', with no mention whatsoever of any of the Gods of Chaos. Hell, even the warp overlap of the Eye of Terror was an invention of RoC; in RT, it's simply a lawless area of space usually cut off by warp storms; there's a cool picture of a local criminal being patted down by Space Marines :)
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Post by NecronLord »

Correct. The Sons of Malice space marines have been very heavily inferred as being connected with Malal, even though they can't use the name. The Sons of Malice operate in the same way as Malal's followers, hating practically everyone, and fighting with special zeal against other chaos forces.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Norseman wrote:By the way... I'm a little confused here about the Taus tactics:

It's said that they often invade and assimilate worlds into the Greater Good. It's also said that they persuaded several planetary governors to join the Empire.

So basically do they try to assimilate a world entirely? Or do they allow the worlds they take internal autonomy provided that they serve the Greater Good? Or something in between? Or are some worlds treated differently from others?

An inquiring mind wants to know!
The Tau tend to try the carrot first, offering membership into their empire, the opportunity to work towards the greater good etc. etc.

If you agree and sign up great, you get inducted and your part of the Tau empire, everyone is equal... though some are more equal than others.

If you refuse then they invade and kick seven kinds of hell out of you before forcefully bringing you into the Tau empire, and sometimes doing icky and sinister things to people.
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Post by white_rabbit »

As I recall, the other Malal remnant is the anti-invulnerable save, Axe style Daemon weapon in the Chaos marine wargear section.
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