Miss Manners defends Darkstar

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-07 10:49am

Northern Huntsman wrote:Its a null-point claiming that ISD vs. GCS would never happen without being due to outside influence because ST vs. SW would never happen without being due to outside influence. Why does the ST vs SW have to mean Intergalactic War?

Aren't you the fucking moron? Do you even know what versus means? I'm envisioning you going to a boxing match, looking at the "Tyson vs. Foreman" or whatever sign, and going inside expecting them to recite poetry to each other while throwing flowers all around the ring.

The saying that "the majority of X is Y" is GENERALIZING? do you know what majority means? It's a verifiable figure, not something pulled out of somebody's ass. If I say "all europeans are bigots", THAT is generalizing. Note that he didn't say "ALL trekkies", which is kinda the magic word for generalizing.

Damn you're stoopid.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-07 10:52am

Northern Huntsman wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:1. So what is he somehow supposed to not dislike a person who has decided to take it upon himself to call the man a liar and a pussy, with no thoughts of retaliation?
Really? I called Mr. Wong a liar and a pussy? Care to show me?

Hm, a classic case of transference. That explains a lot. Apparently Mr. Northern Huntsman here thinks himself as some kind of DarkStar avatar, and sees all attacks against DarkStar as directed to himself.

No wonder he gets so offended by anti-DarkStar threads.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-07 04:18pm

Northern Huntsman wrote:I'm not debating Darkstar's behavior, I'm debating the fact that people are kicking a dead horse. He's gone, of no more consequence here, and yet he is mentioned in nearly 50% of posts. There are even "Hate Threads" as I would call this one, which seek to make even more fun of him.

Proof?
Eh, as was recently shown, this notion is bunk.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-07 10:45pm

Master of Ossus wrote: Frankly, if they are terrified of rational debate then they should fear this place. If they understand standard debating tactics, and are logical and scientific in their methods, then they have nothing to fear. Their feelings are irrelevent. If they are unwilling to display their views publicly then we have no use for them here.

Suppose these views could spur even greater ideas or even more intelligent debates? It is indeed a great shame if people simply don't want to partake due to overall attitudes.

It is artificial in the sense that it would likely not happen in the course of the two series, however such is not the purpose of the debate. The situations between 1 GCS and 1 ISD are ludicrous because they rely on situations that would NEVER come about reasonably during a war.

Suppose there is no war to begin with? Why exactly must a debate constitute an intergalactic war?

The wormhole is merely a means to have the two sides meet each other.

Yes, but that does not mean that a full-scale conflict would be the only form of debate.

Isolating individual ships for both sides is stupid because it eliminates some of the massive advantages that the Empire has.

How unfortunate.

And a full-out Galactic war eliminates some of the massive advantages that Star Trek would have. Why exactly does that even matter?

The purpose is to have the two universes at war, and in such a scenario there is frankly no way that an Imperial ship would become so isolated in such a situation. The Empire would attack with massive numerical superiority almost at will, by virtue of both its larger numbers and HUGE advantage in FTL speed.

Once more, how do we know the wormhole doesn't close after the first ship/ships are through? Thats just as reasonable as the wormhole being there in the first place.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-07 10:47pm

I just find it humorous how the thread, intended to relive famous idiocy has instead become the home of the latest flames flying about that idiocy.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-07 10:49pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Aren't you the fucking moron?

No, I'm not. Now debate and don't resort to namecalling.

Do you even know what versus means? I'm envisioning you going to a boxing match, looking at the "Tyson vs. Foreman" or whatever sign, and going inside expecting them to recite poetry to each other while throwing flowers all around the ring.

What you envision and what I type are two completely different things apparently.

The saying that "the majority of X is Y" is GENERALIZING? do you know what majority means? It's a verifiable figure, not something pulled out of somebody's ass. If I say "all europeans are bigots", THAT is generalizing. Note that he didn't say "ALL trekkies", which is kinda the magic word for generalizing.

If I said "The majority of Warsis are are idiots", I doubt there wouldn't be any objections on this board.

Damn you're stoopid.

Exactly the kind of attitude that makes this environment more-than hostile.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-07 11:12pm

Northern Huntsman wrote:It is artificial in the sense that it would likely not happen in the course of the two series, however such is not the purpose of the debate. The situations between 1 GCS and 1 ISD are ludicrous because they rely on situations that would NEVER come about reasonably during a war.

Suppose there is no war to begin with? Why exactly must a debate constitute an intergalactic war?

What do you propose instead?

The wormhole is merely a means to have the two sides meet each other.

Yes, but that does not mean that a full-scale conflict would be the only form of debate.

People have also done the 50 planets 50 ships versus, the Evacuate the planet versus, the diplomacy versus, and a ton of others. Contrary to your claim, full scale war is not the only one.

Isolating individual ships for both sides is stupid because it eliminates some of the massive advantages that the Empire has.

How unfortunate. And a full-out Galactic war eliminates some of the massive advantages that Star Trek would have. Why exactly does that even matter?

Name said advantages. Let me guess: transporters, and warp strafing, right?

The purpose is to have the two universes at war, and in such a scenario there is frankly no way that an Imperial ship would become so isolated in such a situation. The Empire would attack with massive numerical superiority almost at will, by virtue of both its larger numbers and HUGE advantage in FTL speed.

Once more, how do we know the wormhole doesn't close after the first ship/ships are through? Thats just as reasonable as the wormhole being there in the first place.

If you want to debate a different scenario, lay that scenario out instead of complaining about the traditional one.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-07 11:15pm

Northern Huntsman, I have no real desire to continue a debate in this thread as it seems clear that everyone else is already debating you and to continue to attack your points while others do so would be unfair. However, I would like to point out that my rebuttal of Mr. Anderson's website is up. Since you seem to be a fan of Mr. Anderson, I thought it would interest you to check it out. Please enjoy.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-07 11:17pm

Mr. MoO, I've already been looking over the rebuttal, and I do have some problems with a few of the pages, others I agree with (since contrary to belief, I do feel some of his ideas are off the wall).

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-07 11:25pm

Northern Huntsman wrote:Mr. MoO, I've already been looking over the rebuttal, and I do have some problems with a few of the pages, others I agree with (since contrary to belief, I do feel some of his ideas are off the wall).

I look forward to looking at the errors you noticed. I have another thread up, for the purposes of other readers critiquing my critique. Please feel free to post your comments over there, if you would like.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-07 11:43pm

Northern Huntsman wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Northern Huntsman's "you should all be more polite" bullshit thread hijacking attempt has been split to the "Miss Manners Defends Darkstar" thread. Further attempts to hijack the thread will be dealt with severely.
Sooooo... if I started a "Funniest Darth Wong quotes" thread, you would have no objection?

You really are fucking stupid. He said he split all that shit, yet you kept it up in the old thread.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-07 11:46pm

He is deliberately refusing to stop hijacking the thread. Definite troll behaviour. I may have to get harsh with this little shit; I warned him already to stop hijacking the thread, and he looks like he doesn't intend to cease and desist.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2003-01-07 11:54pm

Northern Huntsman

What exactly is your purpose here? Are you a sci-fi fan who comes to debate albeit fantastical and hypothetical arguments. Or are you just here to tweak peoples noses. If so, leave. Your kind is unwelcome. Got an argument about ST or SW, canon or non, or even whether Klingons and Wookies share the same heritage, go right ahead and enjoy an entertaining debate.

But, if you are here to defend an almost indefensible creature then you are wasting time and bandwidth.

Just as an aside, STvSW, particularly Federation v Empire would always resolve itself in warfare. Its core to the nature of the Empire, and the peaceful ways of the federation would do nothing but encourage a swift and devestating invasion.

I believe the reason he is still mentioned is because he continues in his own attacks on people like mOO and Mike.

So why are you so concerned? A relation, a partner?

Contribute something of worth or Go Away

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-08 12:02am

Darth Wong wrote:He is deliberately refusing to stop hijacking the thread. Definite troll behaviour. I may have to get harsh with this little shit; I warned him already to stop hijacking the thread, and he looks like he doesn't intend to cease and desist.

Note the "LOL" smiley, I was simply joking.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-08 12:07am

What do you propose instead?

A 1v1 engagement.

People have also done the 50 planets 50 ships versus, the Evacuate the planet versus, the diplomacy versus, and a ton of others. Contrary to your claim, full scale war is not the only one.

Thats good, but why then have so many individuals completely missed my point and continue to insist that Intergalactic War is the ONLY debate?

Name said advantages. Let me guess: transporters, and warp strafing, right?

Range, maneuveribility, weapons coverage, sensor capabilities, and firepower depending on whose views of canon you use, and which calculations.

If you want to debate a different scenario, lay that scenario out instead of complaining about the traditional one.

Which is exactly what I intend to do shortly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-08 12:12am

Northern Huntsman wrote:Range, maneuveribility, weapons coverage, sensor capabilities, and firepower depending on whose views of canon you use, and which calculations.

<sniff sniff> is that the scent of someone planning to use the "find excuses to dismiss all forms of evidence detrimental to your position" technique?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-08 12:18am

Northern Huntsman wrote: Range, maneuveribility, weapons coverage, sensor capabilities, and firepower depending on whose views of canon you use, and which calculations.

I know Wong already said it...but I have to ask

WHAT THE FUCK?

VIEWS of CANON and which CALCULATIONS?!

Are you saying that for some reason Wong is blantantly lying in the Canon and his calcs are lies?

If so please prove this...because sorry so far everything he has done is shown with proof and done within canon.

This also smacks of DS style of Canon only, fuck official.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 12:18am

Mr. Huntsman, I think you are misrepresenting people's positions. I agree that there should be debates between a set number of starships on both sides, however the importance of strategic advantages are lost in 1 v 1 engagements. I suggest that for a more fair assessment of the military capabilities of each side, you instead limit the debates to star-cluster sized "wars," or larger. That way, both tactics and strategy become factors, but there is also a significant drop in the industrial and numerical advantages of the SW side.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assessments of the advantages of the UFP, however. If you'll read my debate, I clearly talk about how SW actually has an observed advantage in range, maneuverability, and a significant advantage in its ability to concentrate its fire on a single target. Weapons coverage is more or less irrelevent in a battle such as the ones everyone else proposes, however the ability of a starship to concentrate its fire is significant. Weapons coverage only truly matters when being engaged by a host of smaller ships. Moreover, for any of your advantages to seem important, you would need to demonstrate how they would allow the UFP to do significantly better in combat than most posters here agree that they would do.

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-01-08 02:15am

Methinks may have been brainwashed by RSA

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-01-08 02:16am

Damn no edit I mean Northern Huntsman.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-08 02:31am

Northern Huntsman wrote:No, I'm not. Now debate and don't resort to namecalling.

I haven't seen any debating from you, only smug arrogance and condescending remarks, if you expected you could be an ass and not be explicit about it, like DS, then you come to the wrong forum, we HATE that, say it like it is and stop hiding behind a fasade.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-08 03:13am

Gentleman, the troll has cast off his disguise. This guy may even be OLDDDDDDDDDDDDD school trek fodder.

Ubiqtorate · Post by **Ubiqtorate** » 2003-01-08 04:03am

The honourable Member Northern Huntsman:

It is of the utmost importance to note that civility becomes an empty shell when it lacks sincerity. At that point, it becomes deception, which is dishonourable and most reprehensible. In this sense, the inevitable conclusion is that one who speaks plainly but not politely is in fact more civilised and proper in one's behaviour than one who speaks politely but duplicitously.

Whilst the right honourable Administrator Darth Wong can be abrasive and abusive in his manner, it is in fact no stretch of the truth to say that his open and frank manner is more civilised and more becoming a gentleman than one who focusses on form at the expense of content. The same can be said of the other honourable Members of this board. To wit, what one says is properly a greater factor in civility than how one says it.

When one is contemptuous of another, or entertains other uncharitable opinions of another, and nevertheless insists upon the empty forms of civility, it becomes a mask, a veneer of politeness, a deception which is in fact far more insulting and inappropriate than the frank and plain exchange of ideas.

Civility consists of more than the mere expression of whatever ideas in the most agreeable of terms. It consists of genuine and mutual respect; when that respect is clearly lacking, it becames a farce, and the slavish, pharisaical adherence to its forms is effectively a slap in the face. Even the most rigidly polite gentlemen and gentlewomen would never countenance such a thing; it is sufficient cause for one to demand satisfaction.

The Ubiqtorate trusts that he or she has made clear why civility alone, though important, is not and cannot be the first and foremost criterion for reasoned and efficacious debate. It is at best a desireable quality, but can never be an end unto itself.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-01-08 04:59am

Hear, hear!

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-08 05:51am

AWWWWRIIIGHT! THE UBIQTORATE IS IN DA HOUSE!

<or wait, I know.. "the Ubiqtorate doesn't exist."

>

Bout time you got here, dude