Marriage in America

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Marriage in America

Post by Starglider »

Story from The Economist about the link between divorce rates and income inequality and arguing how this leads to a self-perpetuating situation and increasing social stratification. Slightly snipped for length.

-----

The students at West Virginia University don't want you to think they take life too seriously. It is the third-best “party school” in America, according to the Princeton Review's annual ranking of such things. Booze sometimes causes students' clothes to fall off. Those who wake up garmentless after a hook-up endure the “walk of shame”, trudging back to their own dormitories in an obviously borrowed football shirt.

[img=left]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/stargliderx/m1.jpg[/img]And yet, for all their protestations of wildness, the students are a serious-minded bunch. Yes, they have pre-marital sex. “I don't see how it's a bad thing,” says Ashley, an 18-year-old studying criminology. But they are careful not to fall pregnant. It would be “a major disaster,” says Ashley. She has plans. She wants to finish her degree, go to the FBI academy in Virginia and then start a career as a “profiler” helping to catch dangerous criminals. She wants to get married when she is about 24, and have children perhaps at 26. She thinks having children out of wedlock is not wrong, but unwise.

A few blocks away, in a soup kitchen attached to a church, another 18-year-old balances a baby on her knee. Laura has a less planned approach to parenthood. “It just happened,” she says. The father and she were “never really together”, merely “friends with benefits, I guess”. He is now gone. “I didn't want to put up with his stuff,” she says. “Drugs and stuff,” she adds, by way of explanation.

There is a widening gulf between how the best- and least-educated Americans approach marriage and child-rearing. Among the elite (excluding film stars), the nuclear family is holding up quite well. Only 4% of the children of mothers with college degrees are born out of wedlock. And the divorce rate among college-educated women has plummeted. Of those who first tied the knot between 1975 and 1979, 29% were divorced within ten years. Among those who first married between 1990 and 1994, only 16.5% were.

At the bottom of the education scale, the picture is reversed. Among high-school dropouts, the divorce rate rose from 38% for those who first married in 1975-79 to 46% for those who first married in 1990-94. Among those with a high school diploma but no college, it rose from 35% to 38%. And these figures are only part of the story. Many mothers avoid divorce by never marrying in the first place. The out-of-wedlock birth rate among women who drop out of high school is 15%. Among African-Americans, it is a staggering 67%.

Does this matter? Kay Hymowitz of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think-tank, says it does. In her book “Marriage and Caste in America”, she argues that the “marriage gap” is the chief source of the country's notorious and widening inequality. Middle-class kids growing up with two biological parents are “socialised for success”. They do better in school, get better jobs and go on to create intact families of their own. Children of single parents or broken families do worse in school, get worse jobs and go on to have children out of wedlock. This makes it more likely that those born near the top or the bottom will stay where they started. America, argues Ms Hymowitz, is turning into “a nation of separate and unequal families”.

A large majority (92%) of children whose families make more than $75,000 a year live with two parents (including step-parents). At the bottom of the income scale—families earning less than $15,000—only 20% of children live with two parents. One might imagine that this gap arises simply because two breadwinners earn more than one. A single mother would have to be unusually talented and diligent to make as much as $75,000 while also raising children on her own. It is impossible in America for two full-time workers to earn less than $15,000 between them, unless they are (illegally) paid less than the minimum wage.

[img=right]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/stargliderx/m2.gif[/img]But there is more to it than this. Marriage itself is “a wealth-generating institution”, according to Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe, who run the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University. Those who marry “till death do us part” end up, on average, four times richer than those who never marry. This is partly because marriage provides economies of scale and because the kind of people who make more money - those who work hard, plan for the future and have good interpersonal skills - are more likely to marry and stay married. But it is also because marriage affects the way people behave.

American men, once married, tend to take their responsibilities seriously. Avner Ahituv of the University of Haifa and Robert Lerman of the Urban Institute found that “entering marriage raises hours worked quickly and substantially.” Married men drink less, take fewer drugs and work harder, earning between 10% and 40% more than single men with similar schooling and job histories. Marriage encourages both spouses to save and invest more and provides each other with a form of insurance against falling sick or losing a job. Marriage also encourages the division of labour. Ms Dafoe Whitehead and Mr Popenoe put it like this: “Working as a couple, individuals can develop those skills in which they excel, leaving others to their partner.” Mum handles the tax returns while Dad fixes the car. Or vice versa. As Adam Smith observed two centuries ago, when you specialise, you get better at what you do, and you produce more.

Perhaps the most convincing work showing that marriage is more than just a piece of paper was done by Mr Lerman of the Urban Institute. In “Married and Unmarried Parenthood and Economic Wellbeing”, he addressed the “selection effect”—the question of whether married-couple families do better because of the kind of people who marry, or because of something about marriage itself. Using data from a big annual survey, he looked at all the women who had become pregnant outside marriage. He estimated the likelihood that they would marry, using dozens of variables known to predict this, such as race, income and family background. He then found out whether they did in fact marry, and what followed.

His results were striking. Mothers who married ended up much better off than mothers with the same disadvantages who did not. So did their children. Among those in the bottom quartile of “propensity to marry”, those who married before the baby was six months old were only half as likely to be raising their children in poverty five years later as those who did not (33% to 60%).

Changes in family structure thus have a large impact on the economy. One of the most-cited measures of prosperity, household income, is misleading over time because household sizes have changed. In 1947, the average household contained 3.6 people. By 2006, that number had dwindled to 2.6. A study by Adam Thomas and Isabel Sawhill concluded that if the black family had not collapsed between 1960 and 1998, the black child-poverty rate would have been 28.4% rather than 45.6%. And if white families had stayed like they were in 1960, the white child poverty rate would have been 11.4% rather than 15.4%.

College-educated women typically see single motherhood as a distant second-best to marriage. If they have babies out of wedlock, it is usually because they have not yet got round to marrying the man they are living with. Or because, finding themselves single and nearly 40, they decide they cannot wait for Mr Right and so seek a sperm donor. By contrast, many of America's least-educated women live in neighbourhoods where single motherhood is the norm. And when they have babies outside marriage, they are typically younger than their middle-class counterparts, in less stable relationships and less prepared for what will follow.

Consider the home life of Lisa Ballard, a 26-year-old single mother in Morgantown. She strains every nerve to give her children the best upbringing she can, while also looking for a job. Her four-year-old son Alex loves the Dr Seuss book “Green Eggs and Ham”, so she reads it to him, and once put green food colouring in his breakfast eggs, which delighted him. But the sheer complexity of her domestic arrangements makes life “very challenging”, she says. She has four children by three different men. Two were planned, two were not. Two live with her; she has shared custody of one and no custody of another. One of the fathers was “a butthole” who hit her, she says, and is no longer around. The other two are “good fathers”, in that they have steady jobs, pay maintenance, make their children laugh and do not spank them. But none of them still lives with her.

Miss Ballard now thinks that having children before getting married was “not a good idea”. She says she would like to get married some day, though she finds the idea of long-term commitment scary. “You've got to definitely make sure it's the person you want to grow old with. You know, sitting on rocking chairs giggling at the comics. I want to find the right one. I ask God: ‘What does he look like? Can you give me a little hint?’”

If she does find and wed the man of her dreams, Miss Ballard will encounter a problem. She has never seen her own father. Having never observed a stable marriage close-up, she will have to guess how to make one work. By contrast, Ashley, the criminology student at the nearby university, has never seen a divorce in her family. This makes it much more likely that, when the time is right, she will get married and stay that way. And that, in turn, makes it more likely that her children will follow her to college.

[img=right]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/stargliderx/m3.gif[/img]Children from single-parent homes are more than five times as likely to be poor as those who live with two biological parents (26% against 5%). They are also roughly twice as likely to drop out of high school and to have behavioural or psychological problems. Even after controlling for race, family background and IQ, children of single mothers do worse in school than children of married parents.

Research also suggests that middle- and working-class parents approach child-rearing in different ways. Professional parents shuttle their kids from choir practice to baseball camp and check that they are doing their homework. They also talk to them more. One study found that a college professor's kids hear an average of 2,150 words per hour in the first years of life. Working-class children hear 1,250 and those in welfare families only 620.

Even the children of co-habiting couples do worse, on average, by nearly every measure. One reason is that such relationships are less stable than marriages. In America, they last about two years on average. About half end in marriage. But those who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce. Many people will find this surprising. A survey of teenagers by the University of Michigan found that 64% of boys and 57% of girls agreed that “it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along.” Research suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of American children born to co-habiting parents who later marry will see their parents split up by the time they are ten.

Most American politicians say they support marriage, but few do much about it, except perhaps to sound off about the illusory threat to it from gays. The public are divided. Few want to go back to the attitudes or divorce laws of the 1950s. But many at both ends of the political spectrum lament the fragility of American families and would change, at least, the way the tax code penalises many couples who marry. Some politicians want the state to draw attention to benefits of marriage, as it does to the perils of smoking. George Bush is one. Since last year, his administration has been handing out grants to promote healthy marriages. This is a less preachy enterprise than you might expect. Sidonie Squier, the bureaucrat in charge, does not argue that divorce is wrong: “If you're being abused, you should get out.” Nor does she think the government should take a view on whether people should have pre-marital sex.

Her budget for boosting marriage is tiny: $100m a year, or about what the Defence Department spends every two hours. Some of it funds research into what makes a relationship work well and whether outsiders can help. Most of the rest goes to groups that try to help couples get along better, some of which are religiously-inspired. The first 124 grants were disbursed only last September, so it is too early to say whether any of this will work. But certain approaches look hopeful.

One is “marriage education”. This is not the same as marriage therapy or counselling. Rather than waiting till a couple is in trouble and then having them sit down with a specialist to catalogue each other's faults, the administration favours offering relationship tips to large classes. The army already does this. About 35,000 soldiers this year will get a 12-hour course on how to communicate better with their partners, and how to resolve disputes without throwing plates. It costs about $300 per family. Given that it costs $50,000 to recruit and train a rifleman, and that marital problems are a big reason why soldiers quit, you don't have to save many marriages for this to be cost-effective.

Americans expect a lot from marriage. Whereas most Italians say the main purpose of marriage is to have children, 70% of Americans think it is something else. They want their spouse to make them happy. Some go further and assume that if they are not happy, it must be because they picked the wrong person. At the end of the day, the government's influence over the culture of marriage is probably marginal. Messages from movies, peers and parents matter far more. But by not even mentioning marriage, the state is implying that no one expects him to stick around. Is that a helpful message?

----

Bolding mine, couldn't resist. :) Seriously, should the government spend taxpayer money on promoting marriage and/or paying for marriage counselling? How much should the tax system support marriage? Is stable marriage versus single parenting a contributing factor to the widening US wealth divide, and if so is there anything else that can be usefully done?
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Promoting marriage would be attacking the symptom, not the cause. Poor people don't have children out of wedlock because they don't know about the nuclear family; they do it because they don't believe that lifestyle is accessible for them. When you don't believe you can achieve a goal, you don't bother trying for it.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:Poor people don't have children out of wedlock because they don't know about the nuclear family;
That's a strawman of the author's argument, which is that direct experience of a stable working marriage and planned parenting is very helpful in doing these things oneself. This isn't the only way to interpret the statistics but the article makes a pretty good case for it (most of the stuff I snipped was a brief history of social perception of marriage in the US).
they do it because they don't believe that lifestyle is accessible for them.
I'm not clear what you mean. You don't have to be rich to be married; until very recently marriage for life was the default for rich and poor alike. You don't have to be rich to use contraception either. I agree with 'this is a symptom not a cause', but the cause is the fact that modern life requires much more personal long-term planning than the recent past, when careers and marriage were for life, the government, company or kids took care of your pension and when a baby more or less forced a marriage. Many people inherently suck at long-term planning, and most of those who don't need strong examples of how to do it and why it's worthwhile to succeed. There probably is a direct causal link from poverty to family breakdown, but that's more crime (leading to many fathers going to prison), hopelessness (with the associated drug use) and lack of a stake in life.
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Could part of the issue be that someone who goes and finishes college is committed to things; to finishing them and is dependable while someone who drops out of high school is someone who easily gives up, etc?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Starglider wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Poor people don't have children out of wedlock because they don't know about the nuclear family;
That's a strawman of the author's argument, which is that direct experience of a stable working marriage and planned parenting is very helpful in doing these things oneself. This isn't the only way to interpret the statistics but the article makes a pretty good case for it (most of the stuff I snipped was a brief history of social perception of marriage in the US).
Isn't this like the fallacy of assuming that high-school students are education experts because they've been observing teachers in action? I still see no reason to believe it's a matter of skills rather than expectations.
I'm not clear what you mean. You don't have to be rich to be married; until very recently marriage for life was the default for rich and poor alike. You don't have to be rich to use contraception either. I agree with 'this is a symptom not a cause', but the cause is the fact that modern life requires much more personal long-term planning than the recent past, when careers and marriage were for life, the government, company or kids took care of your pension and when a baby more or less forced a marriage. Many people inherently suck at long-term planning, and most of those who don't need strong examples of how to do it and why it's worthwhile to succeed. There probably is a direct causal link from poverty to family breakdown, but that's more crime (leading to many fathers going to prison), hopelessness (with the associated drug use) and lack of a stake in life.
What I'm saying is that people in certain socioeconomic groups simply don't think certain avenues in life are even available to them at all. They don't even consider it. A lot of young girls don't believe they'll ever meet Prince Charming, marry him, and have what they think of as a fairy-tale life. If you don't even have the expectation, you won't make it happen. It's like all of the young black guys in urban schools who don't give a shit about education because they figure they'll be dead by 20 anyway.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Plekhanov
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3991
Joined: 2004-04-01 11:09pm
Location: Mercia

Re: Marriage in America

Post by Plekhanov »

Does this matter? Kay Hymowitz of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think-tank, says it does. In her book “Marriage and Caste in America”, she argues that the “marriage gap” is the chief source of the country's notorious and widening inequality. Middle-class kids growing up with two biological parents are “socialised for success”. They do better in school, get better jobs and go on to create intact families of their own. Children of single parents or broken families do worse in school, get worse jobs and go on to have children out of wedlock. This makes it more likely that those born near the top or the bottom will stay where they started. America, argues Ms Hymowitz, is turning into “a nation of separate and unequal families”.
If she reckons marriage is so great I confused as to why she wants to deny homosexuals and their offspring it's benefits.
metavac
Village Idiot
Posts: 906
Joined: 2007-05-08 12:25pm
Location: metavac@comcast.net

Re: Marriage in America

Post by metavac »

Plekhanov wrote:If she reckons marriage is so great I confused as to why she wants to deny homosexuals and their offspring it's benefits.
Not quite sure myself. This op-ed summarizes what might at face value represent some research into marriage trends and their correlation with inequality. On the other hand, it seems she just magically lumps gay households with other dysfunctional ones without hinting at any research to justify it.
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:A lot of young girls don't believe they'll ever meet Prince Charming, marry him, and have what they think of as a fairy-tale life. If you don't even have the expectation, you won't make it happen.
That makes sense, but I'm pretty sure having parents (and parents of friends, and friends of the parents) with a stable marriage plays a big role in setting expectations. This works for wealth too actually; people tend to assume that they can have what their parents had, which is in most places and times a reasonable assumption.

As far as I can see, trying to salvage broken marriages is still worthwhile (if only for the reduction in crime and maintenance payments admin overhead, from a government point of view), though more decent studies would be nice to back up the case for spending taxpayer money on it. Limited trials with follow up studies seem like a good idea to me - though the studies need to be independent to avoid the usual 'government programs becoming self-justifying' waste.

Government 'promotion of marriage' is a bit more dubious. Financial incentives that apply after the fact won't address expectations of it being possible. The male side is at least as important; men not seeing the worth in marriage as well as women not pushing/waiting for men who will commit (most of these sob stories are essentially 'man fucked woman without protection, woman got pregnant, man walked out over woman's objections', though the woman shouldn't have gone along with that). I don't really know how to tackle that. I suppose you could try putting a few 'life coach' style lectures into teenage education, but that doesn't sound likely to have much impact (OTOH, it'd be an improvement on the worse-than-useless religiously motivated 'abstinence education' that currently blemishes the US education system).
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Marriage in America

Post by Starglider »

Plekhanov wrote:If she reckons marriage is so great I confused as to why she wants to deny homosexuals and their offspring it's benefits.
I just assumed that would be the case for a conservative think tank. At least the author seems to support gay marriage with 'most American politicians say they support marriage, but few do much about it, except perhaps to sound off about the illusory threat to it from gays'. Adoption by gays is a separate issue from gay marriage; the article does note 'Children from single-parent homes are more than five times as likely to be poor as those who live with two biological parents (26% against 5%)' without breaking it down further, but this is irrelevant to the question of where to place adoptees when the biological parents are dead/unavailable/proven unfit.
User avatar
Plekhanov
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3991
Joined: 2004-04-01 11:09pm
Location: Mercia

Post by Plekhanov »

The main problem I see with the articles whole argument is the old one of correlation/causation; for example financial hardship a significant factor in causing relationships to break down and divorce this would obviously affect the poor more than the affluent, the same is true for a great many other problems such as substance abuse problems, mental illness and so forth.

People who’ve experienced any of the above are more likely to never get married in the first place or divorce if they do, being single isn’t the cause of their problems though simply a marker of them. Similarly can we really say that marriage is the cause of success in a couple and their children’s lives or that the fact that they got and stayed married is a marker of their success.
User avatar
Lisa
Jedi Knight
Posts: 790
Joined: 2006-07-14 11:59am
Location: Trenton
Contact:

Post by Lisa »

Teaching birth control would also help with these stats. You're less likely to get pregnant and drop out if you are using birth control.
May you live in interesting times.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Lisa wrote:Teaching birth control would also help with these stats. You're less likely to get pregnant and drop out if you are using birth control.
Believe it or not, many of these girls want to get pregnant. It's what they see as a rite of passage into adulthood.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Erik von Nein
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2005-06-25 04:27am
Location: Boy Hell. Much nicer than Girl Hell.
Contact:

Post by Erik von Nein »

Darth Wong wrote:Believe it or not, many of these girls want to get pregnant. It's what they see as a rite of passage into adulthood.
Are there any statistics on this, or the above about many girls thinking they won't find a "prince charming"? I've seen this stated often, but I haven't seen any statistics backing it up. It'd be nice to have.
"To make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe."
— Carl Sagan

Image
User avatar
Lisa
Jedi Knight
Posts: 790
Joined: 2006-07-14 11:59am
Location: Trenton
Contact:

Post by Lisa »

Darth Wong wrote:
Lisa wrote:Teaching birth control would also help with these stats. You're less likely to get pregnant and drop out if you are using birth control.
Believe it or not, many of these girls want to get pregnant. It's what they see as a rite of passage into adulthood.
Weird. I don't have any stats on this but of my friends in high school that got pregnant only one of them wanted to be that way (she was older and an adult at that point). A few were ignorant on birth control ("their boyfriends knew more then the phys ed teacher") and one of them out right told me "that her boy friend knew when to pull out" before she got pregnant. When I told her otherwise I was labeled a meddling bitch and was told to stay away from her by her boy friend.

quick google search brought me this
Each year, almost 1 million teenage girls become pregnant worldwide. In the U.S., 13% of births are to teenage girls. In ¾ of the cases, the pregnancy was not intended, at least not conscientiously.
linky. In all the original post infers that education is a key and I believe sex ed is a part of that.
May you live in interesting times.
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Post by NeoGoomba »

Darth Wong wrote:Believe it or not, many of these girls want to get pregnant. It's what they see as a rite of passage into adulthood.
I wonder if these are the girls with the overbearing mother sitting in their corner, telling them what will get approval.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
Jadeite
Racist Pig Fucker
Posts: 2999
Joined: 2002-08-04 02:13pm
Location: Cardona, People's Republic of Vernii
Contact:

Post by Jadeite »

NeoGoomba wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Believe it or not, many of these girls want to get pregnant. It's what they see as a rite of passage into adulthood.
I wonder if these are the girls with the overbearing mother sitting in their corner, telling them what will get approval.
Actually, you can usually find an episode of daytime TV shows, like Maury or whatever about girls like that. They usually have parents who weren't able to instill any discipline into them when they hit puberty. They're mostly selfish and spoiled brats with Eric Cartman's "I do what I want!" attitude. Apparently its mostly a belief that having a baby will give them something that will love them unconditionally, and they drastically underestimate the responsibility and work it will take to raise a child.
Image
User avatar
Lisa
Jedi Knight
Posts: 790
Joined: 2006-07-14 11:59am
Location: Trenton
Contact:

Post by Lisa »

Jadeite wrote:Apparently its mostly a belief that having a baby will give them something that will love them unconditionally, and they drastically underestimate the responsibility and work it will take to raise a child.
The logic fails me in this... if they don't respect and love their parents how can they expect their spawnlings to do the same with them?
May you live in interesting times.
User avatar
Raw Shark
Stunt Driver / Babysitter
Posts: 7705
Joined: 2005-11-24 09:35am
Location: One Mile Up

Post by Raw Shark »

Lisa wrote:
Jadeite wrote:Apparently its mostly a belief that having a baby will give them something that will love them unconditionally, and they drastically underestimate the responsibility and work it will take to raise a child.
The logic fails me in this... if they don't respect and love their parents how can they expect their spawnlings to do the same with them?
They probably expect to make up for what their own parents lacked with 100% pure awesome. Babies can smell the awesomeness y'know.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Honestly as with anything else this article seems to more appropriately point to the real problme which is quality education. If you learn and are dedicated to learning and achieving excellence in some way shape or form then you will set goals and plan on getting there. Put a perosn through college and all of a sudden they almost have to have some degree of planning skills (assuming daddy's money didn't put them through despite not working) which translates to a whole host of socio-economic benifits. The article does point out the fiscal benifits of marriage but in order to realize them you have to be able to plan and communicate goals, desires, and skills, something that a solid educaiton SHOULD instill in a person. Again its not that we need to tell people they should get married but rather we need to educate them so they can organize and plan their own lives, marriage and its fiscal benifits will flow naturally from that.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

CmdrWilkens wrote:The article does point out the fiscal benifits of marriage but in order to realize them you have to be able to plan and communicate goals, desires, and skills, something that a solid educaiton SHOULD instill in a person. Again its not that we need to tell people they should get married but rather we need to educate them so they can organize and plan their own lives, marriage and its fiscal benifits will flow naturally from that.
Perhaps, but clearly that's not a solution for a large chunk of the population. On the Coberst dogpile thread various people were pointing out that not everyone is suited for university and the US may already have more people going than the optimum. Then again, there are other options for further education, like trade schools and structured apprenticeships, which are sadly rare in Western countries (and the US in particular) ATM. If you want to do this stuff at high school level that's my half-serious 'get some life coach style lectures into the classroom' suggestion.
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Well well walking through a housing development yesterday, I saw a sign. Quick Divorce, 300 bucks, one of those paper posters with little tearaways with phone numbers. Two out of six of the phone number tearaways were gone and that was the first time I saw the sign.

By the end of the week, that sign will be bare.

Sending a message to marry -- or worse yet, allowing religious motivations to seep in and say save sex until marriage (the most effective means of getting the message across in my opinion, hey if it's immoral to have sex out of wedlock horny guys have to marry to do the wild thing!) then saying keep the marriage together no matter what would just result in a lot of bruised faces, broken bones and abused women keeping it quiet. People divorce for a reason, because they can't live with the guy or girl happily.

Telling a person to live with another person they dislike for the rest of their lives is pretty damn stupid. Can you say torture or living hell. Not to mention it truly is attacking the symptom rather than the cause. Asking a man to marry and stick with a woman forever is nice, but if that man doesn't have the money to take care of his woman because he's got no job prospects, well then no amount of marriage will save them.

And I doubt a man who's well off and divorces and marrys many women, fucks them then divorces them is doing this because of a lack of propaganda about marriage. He's doing it because it's his biological imperative to fuck, and that man is so immature he decides this desire to fuck is more important than leaving many fatherless babies (money is not a father!). Desire to fuck is on the woman's side too. Fighting human nature is futile and would likely make human society unhappy, an unutilitarian end (unless you replace that happiness with something else like religion and there are obvious problems with that.)
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

The fact that divorce rates skyrocketed ever since women stopped taking it up the ass (figuratively, of course :D ) makes me wonder if there is a significant portion of the population that, genetically, was never inclined towards monogamy. Was it not in the cards for us, evolutionarily speaking?
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

Lisa wrote:The logic fails me in this... if they don't respect and love their parents how can they expect their spawnlings to do the same with them?
It's that whole 'cycle of abuse' thing. Bad families make bad parents, but that doesn't stop them wanting to become parents.
Post Reply