EPIC Pc vs Mac Battle: FOR ALL TIME

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-25 09:44pm

brianeyci wrote:Well well, the rant was pretty stupid I admit. My misconception about Apple and Macs were based on two things. Thinking that a Mac was out of my price range and only for rich people, and buying into their marketing hype.

I just surfed their education discount store, and it looks like I can get a Macbook for cheaper than I got my laptop a few years ago. I'm not a computer major, so I don't really care about the components inside. All I care about is lightweight and long battery life. It looks like had I checked out macs, I might have gotten a mac instead. In fact it looks like Apple caters exactly to my needs: lightweight, long battery life, easy to use, quiet, reliable. It looks like macs are made for me.

I'm not getting a new computer for a long time, but I'll be thinking about a mac next time. The only sticking point is games and Microsoft Office things, but I'll have a desktop and OpenOffice (or whatever macs have) for that.

I've been thinking about getting a Macbook myself. Mainly because of the fact that I can get Bootcamp and put Windows XP Pro on there as well, so I wouldn't have to worry much about compatibility issues with two mainstream operating systems on it.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 2007-05-25 09:56pm

brianeyci wrote:I'm not getting a new computer for a long time, but I'll be thinking about a mac next time. The only sticking point is games and Microsoft Office things, but I'll have a desktop and OpenOffice (or whatever macs have) for that.

MSOffice for Mac is available for Mac, and thanks to things like BootCamp, Parallels and CrossOver For Mac you can run Windows programs on the Mac.

BootCamp and Parallels require you have a Windows install, one is dual booting the other is a virtual machine.
CrossOver for Mac is an offshoot of the DarWINE project which is an offshoot of the WINE project. It allows you to run certain Windows programs natively on your Mac (Like MSOffice for Windows).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-25 10:00pm

Elaro wrote:The way I see it, the fundamental difference between PCs and Macs is that I can't install OS X on my PC. From what some people say here, it's better than Windows, so I'd like to try it, but I don't want to spend a thousand (or more) dollars to buy a Mac that's >= to my current PC. There's also the upgradability issue.

So yeah, Windows wins by virtue of being cheaper.

You're quite a bit outdated if you think there's a >thousand dollar difference.

Okay. The $1299 MacBook vs the $1199 Dell XPS M1210 (Dell's notebook in a similar size/performance class).

The MacBook is $100 more expensive, though students get it for $1199, so to students they are the same price.

The MacBook is faster (2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo vs 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo).

The RAM is equal.

The MacBook has way more hard drive space (120 GB vs 80 GB).

They have the same graphics card.

The MacBook has a dual-format, dual layer DVD burner. The Dell burns CD's and plays DVDs.

The MacBook's screen is an inch larger.

The MacBook has 802.11n, no indication on the Dell.

The MacBook has a built in camera, the Dell has it as an extra addon.

The Dell's only advantage is that it is 0.7 pounds lighter.

So...how is the Mac over $1000 more? As I see it, it's $100 more and far superior; in fact, even the $1099 MacBook matches or beats the Dell in every respect except for that 0.7 pounds (faster processor, equal RAM and hard drive, bigger screen, built in camera, same disk drive).

As far as the upgradeability issue, I think the only upgradeability issue is the graphics cards. As far as processors, hard drives, and RAM, there is no difference between a Mac and a PC, the only difference being that on the iMac there is no graphics card slot to upgrade.

Macs being way more expensive is a myth. The markup is fairly small, sometimes nonexistant (right now the Mac Mini is a seriously overpriced, for example, since it hasn't been upgraded in over 200 days).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-25 10:04pm

brianeyci wrote:Well well, the rant was pretty stupid I admit. My misconception about Apple and Macs were based on two things. Thinking that a Mac was out of my price range and only for rich people, and buying into their marketing hype.

I just surfed their education discount store, and it looks like I can get a Macbook for cheaper than I got my laptop a few years ago. I'm not a computer major, so I don't really care about the components inside. All I care about is lightweight and long battery life. It looks like had I checked out macs, I might have gotten a mac instead. In fact it looks like Apple caters exactly to my needs: lightweight, long battery life, easy to use, quiet, reliable. It looks like macs are made for me.

I'm not getting a new computer for a long time, but I'll be thinking about a mac next time. The only sticking point is games and Microsoft Office things, but I'll have a desktop and OpenOffice (or whatever macs have) for that.

Glad you finally took a look around the web site.

For the last part; games is the stickler as games are usually ported to the Mac six months to a year late and marked at a higher price, except for games made by Blizzard. I use Boot Camp to dual boot my Mac, so I can fire up Windows to play games; and I don't use Windows for anything other than games.

Microsoft Office for Mac is available. Office 2008 for Mac will be released in a few months. It actually has a few features that Office 2007 for Windows lacks in Word and Excel (but also lacks features; Office for Mac does not have Access, and Entourage is inferior to Outlook). Microsoft has, interestingly, always supported the Mac platform with Office; they signed a ten-year contract with Apple for continued support IIRC. Actually, that'll expire in a few years, I'm curious if they'll continue development; I'd expect so, since the vast majority of Mac users pay for it.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-05-25 10:17pm

Praxis wrote:Glad you finally took a look around the web site.

I had to hold my nose surfing through the nerd ads. Once I got to the education website, the ads were gone.

You know all they need to do to compete directly with Dell is pimp out their black model more and their white plastic look less (I hate that and I bet it turns a lot of people off) and change the ads to something less stupid. There is a middle ground between wanking off to gigahertz and proclaiming yourself nerd free. If mac took the middle ground they'd have a lot more market share.

Post by **Vympel** » 2007-05-25 10:39pm

I've never bothered with Macs, I've no use for them. I'd feel better about them if their patronizing "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads didn't exist. There's something really lame about that wanker from Dodgeball going on and on about how Macs are for fun (the same refrain over and over: blogs and music and pictures and whatever) and PCs are for stuffy nerds. No suprises why he doesn't mention games. I suppose games aren't fun.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-05-25 11:12pm

brianeyci wrote:I'm not getting a new computer for a long time, but I'll be thinking about a mac next time. The only sticking point is games and Microsoft Office things, but I'll have a desktop and OpenOffice (or whatever macs have) for that.

I'm not trying to prosetylize here, but it's honestly worth considering. Virtual PC programs can allow you to run Windows XP in a window (which gives me a dark evil thrill), and it's quite compatible with most open source projects. The "prettiness" of the interface aside, it works concisely, and most importantly doesn't get in my way, which makes me happy.

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2007-05-25 11:25pm

I've had to work with Macs during this last semester with the college newspaper, and I'll second that by and large the only meaningful difference that ~95% of folks are going to be able to appreciate with Macs is software exclusivity - the rest is just a bunch of bullshit advertising and the like to manipulate the masses and some supposed advantages over Windows only a minority will be able to capitalizeon.

Frankly, I can't see any advantage they have over Windows that your typical user with a brain can't take care of.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-25 11:40pm

brianeyci wrote:their white plastic look less (I hate that and I bet it turns a lot of people off)

Actually, I quite like the white one I have. I've got a white Wii, MacBook, iPod, remote, etc...everything matches. I just need a DS Lite now.

I wasn't going for a matching look (except on the iPod, where both colors were the same price), but they ended up being all similar.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-26 12:49am

Brian's just projecting again. I've never met anyone who can look at a square, boxy, ugly PC laptop and say the Apple ones look worse because they're white.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-05-26 12:54am

Praxis wrote:
brianeyci wrote:their white plastic look less (I hate that and I bet it turns a lot of people off)
Actually, I quite like the white one I have. I've got a white Wii, MacBook, iPod, remote, etc...everything matches. I just need a DS Lite now.

I wasn't going for a matching look (except on the iPod, where both colors were the same price), but they ended up being all similar.

It's one of the gripes of a portion of the Non-Mac community though. I dislike the plastic look as well and I don't trust it. I'd like to see some numbers about it's heat efficency, but I've never been a fan of the way it's designed.

Also, the divide between laptop and desktop is important. The G4 and G5 towers I've worked on have been really a pain in the ass, but unless you're getting a high-end thinkpad with a discount, the Macbook is really the best laptop I've ever seen. It's like they took the smart design of an iPod and put it into real computing. I'm all for bashing on Macs on the areas they fail to provide an equal experience, and my personal opinions are well enough known, but the Macbook is really just better. It's not even expensive. You can get a fully functional laptop for bargain basement prices while also having access to high-end support. If you don't like the OS then fine, but you can't claim to be a power user AND a discount user. A Macbook can fill any need besides, I dunno, gaming laptop. But honestly, that's like a racing semi in terms of schitzoid design sense.

Random question, can't I pry the mac guts out of a mac and put it in a normal case? Or are the components built into it? I dislike the case design, but aren't there casemodders out there who have replacement parts for mac boxes?

FedRebel · Post by **FedRebel** » 2007-05-26 01:24am

My two cents on Mac versus PC

The mac offers nothing advantagous, unless multimedia is your sole life

Macs do crash, I've seen it.

A number of programs Mac features, PC features as well

On PC I can play any new game I want. For Mac if the game I want isn't compatable, I'm restricted to wasting my video card by making a movie or playing minesweeper

With a PC I can upgrade every component except the case itself. With a Mac my options are far more limited

With a PC I can install any operating system I want without the requirement of special software. With a Mac I have to either get boot camp or use a virtual machine.

Apple doesn't make OSX available for PC. If Mac OS's are so great why in the Hell aren't they made available for PC? The "evil" internet pirates have proved that it can be done, but that breaks the law because Apple isn't getting money from a market it doesn't want to tap. If Apple really wants Mac to be an alternative to Windows, actually make it an alternative to Windows

As it is Microsoft dominates itself not only on PC but on Mac's as well

Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac Including Windows XP
Microsoft Office for Mac
Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac

...to name a few, and a concession (if there ever was one) of Windows supremacy, Apple presents "Boot Camp"

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-26 02:19am

Yeah, that's real well thought out. I love everyone who says 'people who use Mac's are teh idiots lol they fell for Apple's little trick'.

And I hear because some people use Office on Macs (due to Microsoft's awesome stance on file standards) then Apple should just admit defeat lol! Mac OS obviously doesn't offer anything good or new, because Apple only sells it on their hardware! Boot Camp means OSX sucks, and could never be used for dual booting or to encourage new users!

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-05-26 02:45am

Stark wrote:And I hear because some people use Office on Macs (due to Microsoft's awesome stance on file standards) then Apple should just admit defeat lol! Mac OS obviously doesn't offer anything good or new, because Apple only sells it on their hardware! Boot Camp means OSX sucks, and could never be used for dual booting or to encourage new users!

Even I have to admit that the expose windows manager function is pretty inspired. It's not perfect, but it definately makes up for their taskbar, and more. I really wish my F11 key did, uh, anything.

Oh shits, it puts me into fullscreen mode! That's kinda cool. Anyway, Macs today are an utterly different abomination than they used to be. Now they run a kind of mutant UNIX with an actual GUI, have effortless cross-compatability with general windows software via Bootcamp and emulation, and have a robust variety of actual peripherals. Even the mac mice don't have to ruin your experience anymore, since I can just plug in most USB mice as a replacement.

I hate Macs more than any man ever could, almost as much as I hate Elves. But if you get past all the stuff they actually do kinda wierd, and just treat it as a totally different type of computer, it's much easier to see being used. It's like saying LINUX sucks just because, well, because it's a bitch to get working and has a lot of really painful software options. In some senses it does suck because of that, but from any subjective point of view, there will be some software or hardware that will be lacking or not as good. Macs and PC's are so incredibly similar nowadays that dismissing a Mac as trash out of hand is like saying that All Dells are better than All Gateways, which may be tempting but is intellectually dishonest.

The only real slam against Macs so far is their lack of user customization that I've seen. I'm not big in the Mac underground scene, but it seems difficult to find a support structure for building them from parts. If I could do that, I'd be more interested in them for a future use. I have a pathological aversion to buying a computer as-is from a store.

And, seriously, use Expose for a little bit. Open like a million windows at once and start mashing F11. You'll totally be hooked. Windows has absolutely no excuse for not ripping it off for Vista.

tumbletom · Post by **tumbletom** » 2007-05-26 03:04am

I used to be one of those mac haters until I actually started using one. OSX does crash sometimes, but the thing that makes me love it is that it doesnt do it freakn all the time like my pcs do. Sure the windows os is powerful, but its a bitch and a half to work with. Using my pcs is so much more frustrating than using a mac is because of the crashes and all of the viruses and spyware crap that has to be dealt with.

Macs have most of the stuff a engineering major uses in thier everyday studies--mostly matlab, and whatever doesnt work is pushed over to parallels or something.

Sometimes all you want to do is to do a little without the goddamn computer crashing all the time. That is the appeal of Macs--not that they are made for idiots, but that they are generally less frustrating to use everyday. One doesnt want to slam them into walls or run over them with cars and whatnot like pcs...

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 03:27am

Covenant wrote: Random question, can't I pry the mac guts out of a mac and put it in a normal case? Or are the components built into it? I dislike the case design, but aren't there casemodders out there who have replacement parts for mac boxes?

You can, but the motherboards are customed designed; you won't find any PCI slots in an iMac, for example, since it's designed to fit in a 2-inch enclosure. So really, there's no point in that. Same with the Mac Mini.

The Mac Pro is already in a normal case, and has four PCIe slots and is just as upgradeable as any PC, so you wouldn't need to put it in a normal case.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-05-26 03:34am

FedRebel wrote:Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac Including Windows XP

It was discontinued for the Mac. A long time ago.

Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac

Also discontinued. A very long time ago.

Both of these discontinuations happened in the face of competition. Microsoft literally said, "We can't compete with the offerings from other companies" and exited.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 03:40am

FedRebel wrote:My two cents on Mac versus PC

The mac offers nothing advantagous, unless multimedia is your sole life

Macs do crash, I've seen it.

Nothing is crash proof. It just happens far less often, unless the computer is abused (not properly shut down, etc), is far less frustrating to work with, and app crashes rarely take down the whole OS.

A number of programs Mac features, PC features as well

And vice versa. And both lack apps, too. Get me iLife or Final Cut Studio on a PC please. Or a PC equivilant of Handbrake (I tried the beta PC version of Handbrake on a friend's PC running XP; it actually gave him a bluescreen. So I don't count it)

On PC I can play any new game I want. For Mac if the game I want isn't compatable, I'm restricted to wasting my video card by making a movie or playing minesweeper

Because gaming is the sole purpose of a computer, right? Nobody does work after all.

If gaming is important and there isn't a Mac version of your game, use Boot Camp. It's a piece of cake to set up.

With a PC I can upgrade every component except the case itself. With a Mac my options are far more limited

You know, this isn't as true as it used to be.

Mac laptops are 100% as upgradeable as PC laptops.

Mac consumer-grade desktops' only disadvantage is that you can't upgrade the GPU because of the form factor; RAM, hard drive, processor, etc is just as upgradeable.

The Mac Pro, on the other hand, is just as upgradeable as any PC. Four PCIe slots, and dual Xeon chips (can be dual dual-core or dual quad-core)...standard socket, so you can replace the processor later, and 8 RAM slots on daughtercards, and four SATA drive slots that slide out...

So really...the truth is, "The iMac and Mac Mini have limited GPU upgrade paths." That's it. Other than those two systems not being able to be upgraded in the GPU only, upgradeability is the same.

With a PC I can install any operating system I want without the requirement of special software. With a Mac I have to either get boot camp or use a virtual machine.

Uhm...okay, this is just plain stupid. Boot Camp is a BOOT LOADER THAT LETS YOU INSTALL ANY OPERATING SYSTEM YOU WANT, and a set of Windows drivers for Mac. That's it. Your PC will require Windows drivers for the hardware too, and a boot loader if you're using a non-Windows OS. No difference.

Apple doesn't make OSX available for PC. If Mac OS's are so great why in the Hell aren't they made available for PC? The "evil" internet pirates have proved that it can be done, but that breaks the law because Apple isn't getting money from a market it doesn't want to tap. If Apple really wants Mac to be an alternative to Windows, actually make it an alternative to Windows

Again, pure stupidity. Mac OS must suck because it's not freely available? Apple tightly controls the integration with the hardware. Anyone who has used a pirated version of OS X can tell you it is seriously buggy on non-Apple hardware.

Apple switching to support all the bazillions of hardware configurations out there would require a lot more effort on their part, and the cash made on selling the OS would be far outweighed by the cash LOST by giving up their hardware division.

As it is Microsoft dominates itself not only on PC but on Mac's as well

Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac Including Windows XP
Microsoft Office for Mac
Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac

Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac doesn't work on any machine made since 2005, since it doesn't run on Intel Macs. Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac has been discontinued since version 5.5 and nobody uses it. Microsoft Office is pretty much the business standard.

Again, you're an idiot. Why would this make the platform any less good?

...to name a few, and a concession (if there ever was one) of Windows supremacy, Apple presents "Boot Camp"

Oh, right. Offering options makes them suck.

Wait. Just a few lines up you criticized Apple becaues "you can install any OS on your PC", but when Apple gives you the same option, you state that Apple is conceding inferiority?

STUPID.

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2007-05-26 04:38am

tumbletom wrote:I used to be one of those mac haters until I actually started using one. OSX does crash sometimes, but the thing that makes me love it is that it doesnt do it freakn all the time like my pcs do. Sure the windows os is powerful, but its a bitch and a half to work with. Using my pcs is so much more frustrating than using a mac is because of the crashes and all of the viruses and spyware crap that has to be dealt with.

What on Earth are you doing on your PCs? Everybody is always pissing on Windows for supposedly being a crash-happy malware magnet, but between the three PCs I've gone through/am using (of which the death of one was due to a shoddy independent ISP whom I hope is roasting in the most foul pits of Hell right now) and numerous computers I'm jumping between at university, I've never had any problems on such a level. Program deaths due to mods or random net screw-ups and an occasional black screen requiring a restart, sure, but nothing near that. The only cases I can think of that give justification to the image are those shitty off-the-shelf ones like Emachines, and I'll bet a good chunk of that is likely the gigantic pile of resource-hogging crap they throw in at the last minute, if not also shoddy construction from a more mass-oriented production system.

I'm not claiming to count for everything, but cripes. Do the masses simply not bother with a little precaution and low-level maintainance with their PCs?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-05-26 04:47am

I'm at a loss to understand why the hatred of all things Apple comes from. I've used a Mac - granted, a 2003 one - and it was a perfectly solid computer that could do anything I needed to do. The only feature I missed, either because it wasn't there or I couldn't find it, was exporting documents as PDF's and I'm sure there's a program or plugin that can do that.

Yes, a Mac is not dirt-cheap, but for that you get a full computer package with a uniform interface that requires very little effort to maintain and operate. You get what you pay for. Same thing with other Apple products: I had to spend extra for an iPod, but I can't imagine going back to a Creative now, not when I've seen just how elegant and comfortable an Apple player can be.

If that makes me an Apple whore, so be it.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-05-26 05:39am

Stark wrote:Brian's just projecting again. I've never met anyone who can look at a square, boxy, ugly PC laptop and say the Apple ones look worse because they're white.

Well well Stark, maybe some people don't like smooth things slipping out of their hands, or maybe they don't like their laptops looking like toys. At least one other person than me in this thread doesn't like the white look.

And this might seem foreign to you, but when I criticize things that doesn't mean I'm projecting my own insecurities, or that said insecurities even exist. If I hate something, that doesn't mean I secretly want or love it. The rant was wrong, but at the least you can agree the anti-nerd ads are annoying.

Executor32 · Post by **Executor32** » 2007-05-26 06:33am

I don't much care for the look of most Macs, either, I prefer my black monolith with pretty lights.

I like the Mac Mini, though, because a fully-functional computer the size of the average optical drive is pretty damn neat.

FedRebel wrote:With a PC I can upgrade every component including the case itself. With a Mac my options are far more limited

Fixed. Why do you think they sell computer cases?

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2007-05-26 06:47am

I love subjective opinions. Especially about the frequency of crashes!

My workplace recently threw out all their crash-happy Macs and replaced them with XP machines. Can you say, massive fucking improvement? One week later, nobody wanted their Mac back.

Your new PC crashes less than your old Mac because your old Mac was old.
Your new Mac crashes less than your old PC because your old PC was old.

I've had to use Macs both for graphic design/media and general office work. I still think one-button mice are retarded.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » 2007-05-26 07:43am

still think one-button mice are retarded.

it's not the case anymore since 2004

abouth the crashyness of windows: using your computer smartly: run most of the time in user mode, avoiding shitty freeware and that kind of stuff...

on the hardware, i think that the current apple roster lacks a lot of things: a true successor to the 12'Powerbook and a cheap successor to the cube: an upgradable computer without a screen and without the need to cash 2500€ on a Macpro.
and i loathe their laptop: their are too heavy and the "ultraportable" one had no where the durability of a Thinkpad Xseries or a Panasonic Let's note R/Y

i ordered a second hand G4 mini to replace the computer in the guest room that has died following the install of Xubuntu.

Resinence · Post by **Resinence** » 2007-05-26 09:34am

Argh, just had to comment on this, as someone who uses both Macs and PC's on a regular basis.

Praxis wrote: Nothing is crash proof. It just happens far less often, unless the computer is abused (not properly shut down, etc), is far less frustrating to work with, and app crashes rarely take down the whole OS.

XP/Vista/Linux/Unix/AnyModernOS all have protected memory as well, protected memory really isn't anything new or exciting anymore. If you're talking about bluescreens, in NT that's 99% of the time a driver bringing down the system and really rarely happens on UNIX and it's clones and derivatives including OSX for architectural reasons I don't care to go into in detail. So if you mean macs don't get BSOD's you are correct.

And vice versa. And both lack apps, too. Get me iLife or Final Cut Studio on a PC please. Or a PC equivilant of Handbrake (I tried the beta PC version of Handbrake on a friend's PC running XP; it actually gave him a bluescreen. So I don't count it)

Agreed, I generally find mac software to be much easier to use and better integrated than PC/Linux stuff. Ipods are simply a bitch to get working perfectly in windows, but they are a mac product, use them with a mac

Because gaming is the sole purpose of a computer, right? Nobody does work after all.

If gaming is important and there isn't a Mac version of your game, use Boot Camp. It's a piece of cake to set up.

While I agree with the "just a reboot away" sentiment, it really gets to me that the same people who say it about macs and boot camp turn around and say linux sucks because you can't run games. (not saying you're one of those, just a general rant)

With a PC I can install any operating system I want without the requirement of special software. With a Mac I have to either get boot camp or use a virtual machine.

I'd like to add to praxis' reply to this , while macs can run ANY x86 operating system with just boot camp, a PC cannot ever run OS-X (without resorting to buggy and basically shitty hacks) acceptably or at all depending how similar the hardware is to one of the mac models, and anything without SSE2 instruction support, don't even bother. Also, if you call boot camp "special software" that would make GRUB or LILO "special software"? They are essentially the same thing, and GRUB/LILO sure as hell don't come standard on window's machines.

As it is Microsoft dominates itself not only on PC but on Mac's as well

Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac Including Windows XP
Microsoft Office for Mac
Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac

The last time I used IE5.5 Mac and VirtualPC was on my old PowerMacG3 running good ol' OS8.6, both of those programs won't run at all on an intel mac and run under classic mode in OSX even on a powermac, they are that old.

I also add my name to the "hate the white plastic look" list, OSX has too much damn white too. But it's all you can buy at the moment if you want a mac so eh, whatever. If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.