EPIC Pc vs Mac Battle: FOR ALL TIME

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-05-26 11:20am

You can install Linux on either of them (which is what anyone with half a brain would do immediately, anyway) so what's the difference?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2007-05-26 11:26am

Drooling Iguana wrote:You can install Linux on either of them (which is what anyone with half a brain would do immediately, anyway) so what's the difference?

Why?

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 2007-05-26 12:21pm

Resinence wrote:If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

but there is a black macbook. as for black themed OSX, you probably can customized it, I haven't tried.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-26 12:24pm

Lisa wrote:
Resinence wrote:If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
but there is a black macbook. as for black themed OSX, you probably can customized it, I haven't tried.

It would be nice if the only option for getting a black one didn't cost a few hundred dollars more than the other models.

phred · Post by **phred** » 2007-05-26 02:10pm

General Zod wrote:
Lisa wrote:
Resinence wrote:If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
but there is a black macbook. as for black themed OSX, you probably can customized it, I haven't tried.
It would be nice if the only option for getting a black one didn't cost a few hundred dollars more than the other models.

there is. Its called spraypaint

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 04:34pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:You can install Linux on either of them (which is what anyone with half a brain would do immediately, anyway) so what's the difference?

Why would I install Linux over OS X? There's even LESS games available (for those that care about it, I don't really, that's what Windows is there for), none of the software I use regularly is available, the GUI is unfriendly, it's frustrating to config, and virtually anything I would want to run on Linux is available for OS X. Plus Linux won't support my iPod or iTunes purchases (Heroes Season 1).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 04:38pm

Lisa wrote:
Resinence wrote:If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
but there is a black macbook. as for black themed OSX, you probably can customized it, I haven't tried.

It's called Shapeshifter.

Bounty wrote:The only feature I missed, either because it wasn't there or I couldn't find it, was exporting documents as PDF's and I'm sure there's a program or plugin that can do that.

Actually, that's built in to the OS; it's just not where you'd expect it.
If you hit File -> Print, the bottom left corner of the print window has a little PDF button. You can export anything that you can print to a PDF document.

I still think one-button mice are retarded.

Macs don't even come with one button mice anymore, except the laptop (and placing two fingers on the touchpad turns it into a right click).

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-05-26 05:35pm

I'll say this about the whole one-button mouse thing. There are people in this world who don't understand the difference between right- and left-click. To them, there is just "click". I know that a lot of people in this thread are going to call these people stupid, ignorant, unwashed, not worthy of using a computer, etc ... but the truth is that their money is just as green as everyone else's. If Dell doesn't want them as customers, Apple is just fine selling them computers.

And really, Apple's "stupid" one-button limitation is what drove them to actually be creative with their laptop design. Every other laptop maker was busy putting two buttons and some weird scrolling apparatus on their laptops, and they were basically solutions that all sucked. Whereas with a desktop mouse, you perform right- and left-click with two different fingers, on a laptop, you must do them with your thumb. Your thumb is far larger and less accurate than your index- and middle-fingers. Some PC laptop makers compensated for this by making the left-click button larger at the expense of the right-click's size. This made it easier to perform the more common operation, but more difficult to perform the right-click.

So what did Apple do? Leave one button on there, and if the user wants to "right-click", he holds two fingers on the trackpad and clicks. And it works brilliantly. Your thumb only needs to be accurate enough to hit a very large button, and the modifier action is basically relaxing your hand.

And two-fingered scrolling? I'm amazed that no one has ripped it off yet, because it's the absolute best way to scroll on a laptop. Some other guys included a special scrolling area on the trackpad (again, requires more accuracy) or an actual button on the side to do it. Curiously, I've never actually seen these features work or be used on such laptops. They're clumsy solutions. It's amazing, really. Apple's one-button + trackpad has more functionality than the whole two buttons + trackpad + more scrolling buttons on any other laptop. With two-fingered scrolling, you can even go side-to-side. To do that, Dell would've thrown a side-scroller on top of the trackpad.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-05-26 05:41pm

Actually, that's built in to the OS; it's just not where you'd expect it.
If you hit File -> Print, the bottom left corner of the print window has a little PDF button. You can export anything that you can print to a PDF document.

Did Jag have this? I spent ages looking for an "export" or "save as PDF" button and didn't have the manual. Anyway, if it's got a built-in PDF exporter, I'm impressed.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-05-26 06:02pm

Bounty wrote:
Actually, that's built in to the OS; it's just not where you'd expect it.
If you hit File -> Print, the bottom left corner of the print window has a little PDF button. You can export anything that you can print to a PDF document.
Did Jag have this? I spent ages looking for an "export" or "save as PDF" button and didn't have the manual. Anyway, if it's got a built-in PDF exporter, I'm impressed.

It's been in the OS since 10.0. Any NSView can be represented as a PDF.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-05-26 06:49pm

Mobius wrote:
still think one-button mice are retarded.
it's not the case anymore since 2004

The laptops (at least the small ones) still have only 1 button, and its kinda annoying.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 09:10pm

InnocentBystander wrote:
Mobius wrote:
still think one-button mice are retarded.
it's not the case anymore since 2004
The laptops (at least the small ones) still have only 1 button, and its kinda annoying.

...

...

Read Durandel's post. It's like the third above yours.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-26 09:12pm

Durandal wrote: To do that, Dell would've thrown a side-scroller on top of the trackpad.

Actually, they have.

I don't know if Dell has, specifically, but I have seen PCs with a side-scroller on the trackpad, and another up-down scroll on the side of the trackpad, plus a right and left button. It looks pretty clumsy and nobody uses it.

thejester · Post by **thejester** » 2007-05-26 10:03pm

Meh, I grew up with Macs. My family has an old eMac, my dad a Macbook, and I've got a Mini. One day when I have the patience and time (and money), I'll sit down and learn about boot camp and every other awesome thing available. But until then, I'm happy. I like the white box, I have a two button mouse and every program I need - namely VLC and a DC Client - works fine.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-26 10:04pm

Praxis wrote:
Durandal wrote: To do that, Dell would've thrown a side-scroller on top of the trackpad.
Actually, they have.

I don't know if Dell has, specifically, but I have seen PCs with a side-scroller on the trackpad, and another up-down scroll on the side of the trackpad, plus a right and left button. It looks pretty clumsy and nobody uses it.

I know that HP has. I've tried using the one on my laptop once or twice, but it really is clumsy, so I just use my mouse instead.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-05-26 10:18pm

Bah. TrackPoint middle-click + scroll is superior!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-27 12:56am

Mac touchpads doubling as scroll-wheels and secondary clicks is one of the things that the great unwashed finds awesome and helpful about Mac laptops. Many people struggle to navigate with a proper mouse and fullsize keyboard, and it's only harder with laptops.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 2007-05-27 01:24am

The only track pad i've found to compare for ease of use is the one on my old toshiba satellite A-70 (desktop replacement).

I work in consumer tech support, and when I was supporting windows computers it was a nightmare trying to coach people on using their mouse (which technically wasn't my job)... Imagine an hour of being asked "right click or left click) every time you told a person to click on something and having explained it to them 10 times already you either snap or put up with it because they're too stupid to learn and snapping gets you smacked down...

I love the single mouse button. it's simple, elegant and for 99% of what i have to tell a customer to do they never have to right click... apple also has another alternative to right clicking.... the ctrl click... and in certain places like the dock you can click and hold.... it brings a tear of joy to my eye when i think of the fact that I will never have to tell some one to right click and then explain the differences between right clicking and left clicking only to have the explaination go over their head ("i don't understand what do you mean left clicking is for selecting and right clicking is for menus? arr click click click!")

Resinence · Post by **Resinence** » 2007-05-27 02:23am

Praxis wrote:
Lisa wrote:
Resinence wrote:If there was a black macbook with a black themed OSX I'd be all over that in a second. Black hurts my eye's less/is more pleasing than white and retina-burning-blue and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
but there is a black macbook. as for black themed OSX, you probably can customized it, I haven't tried.
It's called Shapeshifter.

Exactly what I was looking for, cheers.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-27 03:25am

Here's a Shapeshifter theme that's just complete irony.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-27 03:33am

What's 'retina-burning blue' about bog standard OSX? The background? The little apple and spotlight symbols?

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-05-27 03:55pm

Durandal wrote:So what did Apple do? Leave one button on there, and if the user wants to "right-click", he holds two fingers on the trackpad and clicks. And it works brilliantly. Your thumb only needs to be accurate enough to hit a very large button, and the modifier action is basically relaxing your hand.

So how do you pull this off? I've got my mom's black macbook here, two fingers on the touchpad, and clicking the button does not appear to cause ctrl+click.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-05-27 04:23pm

InnocentBystander wrote:
Durandal wrote:So what did Apple do? Leave one button on there, and if the user wants to "right-click", he holds two fingers on the trackpad and clicks. And it works brilliantly. Your thumb only needs to be accurate enough to hit a very large button, and the modifier action is basically relaxing your hand.
So how do you pull this off? I've got my mom's black macbook here, two fingers on the touchpad, and clicking the button does not appear to cause ctrl+click.

System Preferences -> Keyboard & Mouse -> Trackpad -> Check Place Two Fingers on Trackpad and Click Button for Secondary Click.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-27 05:28pm

Usually I'm happy with ctrl-click. I'm right handed, and my left hand is on the keyboard anyway. It's no less inconvienient to reaching under my palm with my thumb to press a right-click button under the touchpad, I think.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-05-28 11:26am

And two-fingered scrolling? I'm amazed that no one has ripped it off yet, because it's the absolute best way to scroll on a laptop.

I'll respond to your rather subjective opinion by argueing that the ThinkPad ScrollPoint solution is by far superior. It takes some getting used to, but makes perfect sense in that it replicates a three button mouse perfectly on a trackpoint equipped keyboard.

I personally can't stand Apple's approach to mice. I use a non-Apple mouse with my Mac due to the poor ergonomics of the Mighty Mouse and the fact that I need easy right click access. My favorite mouse is the Lenovo/IBM ThinkPlus mouse with UltraNav, but unfortunately, UltraNav does not work with some Windows games. Where it does work, though (MS Office, and other productivity apps and web browsers), it is worth its weight in gold). The ergonomics of the mouse are also fantastic, as are the aesthetics.

The combination of a ThinkPad-style USB keyboard and an UltraNav mouse + a new office chair and other ergonomic accessories saved me from carpal tunnel syndrome last year.

Why would I install Linux over OS X? There's even LESS games available (for those that care about it, I don't really, that's what Windows is there for), none of the software I use regularly is available, the GUI is unfriendly, it's frustrating to config, and virtually anything I would want to run on Linux is available for OS X. Plus Linux won't support my iPod or iTunes purchases (Heroes Season 1).

Because Linux is freer, faster, and generally, better. Also, your FUD regarding iPod support is inaccurate; Linux can support iPods (and some distros come with the neccessary codecs preinstalled), just not Apple's proprietary DRM. This is Apple's fault, and the legal workaround is to burn your iTunes library to CDs (which Apple lets you do) and then rip those CDs into Linux, or run Windows or, bwahaha, OS X, in a virtual machine, and use iTunes in it (not sure how well that'd work but I see no reason why it wouldn't...). Also, some versions of iTunes are supported by WINE.

Also, the Linux GUI is not unfriendly, nor is it 'frustrating" to config, for the simple reason that there is no single Linux GUI. KDE is the most heavily configurable GUI I've ever seen, and is also ridiculously easier to use. GNOME sucks, but is somewhat fast and n00b-friendly. The other desktop environments vary enormously, but all of them seem to be markedly faster and more intuitive than Aqua. I find the default configuration and system tools in OS X to be very counter-intuitive and unusual (coming from the standpoint of a hardened Windows power user).

I do agree with Stark that the "Retina burning blue" criticism was pure unabashed FUD, by the way. Vision is passive.