Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[TC Pilot]

This is a continuation of the argument on the IMPS thread. I've moved the argument to a new thread as per recommendation.

At any rate, TC Pilot, it IS a policy of discrimination created by the Empire. It DOES NOT mean that NO females can join the forces, it DOES mean that they will be discriminated against, and as such, females ARE rare in Imperial service. This is why I refute your 'evidence' which consists of a bunch of examples of serving females. Yes, there were female Naval officers, THIS DOES NOT COUNTER MY POINT. Yes, Isard did take control of the Empire. Why? Because she was, for all intents and purposes, Palpatines mistress, which gave her the position of Head of Imperial Intelligence. SHE DID NOT GAIN THIS RANK THROUGH 'MERIT'.

Isard may have gained her position as Director of Imperial Intelligence through a sexual relationship with the Emperor. Or she may have been promoted for successfully framing her father and executing him herself. Which is more likely from a man such as Emperor Palpatine?

Perhaps you do not understand the massive incongruence between an institutional (and by implication constitutional) policy of misogyny and the ability for women to rise in rank and be placed in positions of power. Isard is an example of how women are not prohibited from achieving high rank in the military. Leia Organa is proof enough women are not prohibited from achieving high rank in the government. The fact a woman like Mara can walk around Chimaera in a TIE Fighter pilot suit (TIE pilots are only chosen from the top 2% of the Imperial Academy, by the way) without arousing suspicion further shows women are common enough in the military.

No, actually, YOU have to prove that there WASN'T misogyny in the Empire, because it is reasonable to assume (based on on-screen evidence, the massive bias towards male Imperial personnel, the evidence such as NonhuMan etc etc)

Very well. I'll demolish your "evidence" as I go:

1. On-screen lack of women in uniform

-And while you're at it, the Empire's racist because every officer is white. The Empire must hate toddlers because there are no children on-screen in the Imperial ranks. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Your "evidence" has no validity to it.

2. Massive bias toward male Imperial personnel

-Ah, it must be true because you say it is. Guess what? I'm George Washington. It's true because I say so.

3. NonhuMan

-"NonhuMan" is a term labeling people who do not satisfy the requirements of "High Human Culture". In turn, High Human Culture is specifically a Human cultural supremacy movement. It does not discriminate based on gender and nothing in HHC or COMPNOR states a policy of misogyny. The capitalization of the letter "M" does not suddenly create a government policy which reduces women to the rank of second-class citizens.

Furthermore, the Imperial Sourcebook states all sapient inhabitants of the Empire are full citizens entitled to the same rights. That, along with the existence of numerous women in prominent positions of power, already blows whatever credibility your claims of institutional misogyny has out of the water. Of course, your argument never had any credibility since you had no proof, but I digress...

Until you an actually offer proof that the government provided legal sanction to the discrimination of women, your argument has no weight.

Isard DID NOT gain her position through merit, she came to power by, essentially, being Palpatines mistress. Similarly, Daala did not gain her position through merit, it was bestowed upon her by Tarkin because she was his mistress.

And when the Emperor combusted at Endor, that did not stop her from competing with members of the Ruling Council, some of the highest officials in the Imperial hierarchy, for power and achieving regency over the Imperial throne. You can not reasonably claim a government that permits a woman to openly rule is institutionally backing a legal policy of misogyny.

On top of that, prove Isard earned her position by sleeping with Palpatine.

Mara did, in fact, raise some suspicion by her presence: 'I'm the deck officer' the officer said, scowling at her as the group came to a halt in front of her... 'It's on the other side of the wall' the officer growled...' Clearly, a female IS unusual, as she has drawn a hostile and suspicious reaction from the male officer.

So that officer is a misogynist. Maybe. Or maybe he's in a foul mood. That in no way proves the entire Galactic Empire is systemically designed to intentionally discourage and deprive women of their rights and ability to succeed. Furthermore, "scowling" and "growling" is not suspicion. The Imperial military personnel (dozens, perhaps hundreds of them saw Mara in uniform) may not like the idea of a woman of rank, but it is not impossible or even unusual for a woman to be able to do so.

Mon Mothma and Leia Organa were members of the Imperial Senate. Your point? I think you'll find that the Senate is not, in fact, one of the arms of the Imperial armed forces or similar body such as Intelligence. It's actually the remnants of a democratically elected system. Chandrila and Alderaan are both planets which resisted Imperial control, and as such election of female candidates is not surprising. This has very little to do with the point at hand, especially since the senate was abolished.

It has everything to do with the point at hand. Women can not only serve and rise in rank in the military, but can also openly serve as elected officials within the Imperial government. Further proof that there is no government policy to deprive women of rights or discriminate. Alderaan and Chandrila are member worlds of the Empire, and would be subject to the same laws and policies as any other world.

The Interim Ruling Council, if you're referring to the one known as the Council of Blood, Mahd Windcaller (one of the female members) was not in Imperial service, she was head of a news agency: a media baron. As such, Imperial discrimination had no effect on her, and she was put on the council by Jax, who clearly paid no heed to a doctrine which was, by this point, losing prominence, as shown by his posting of aliens to the council. This does not reflect Imperial policy, as Jax is a traitor and has no legitimate authority. As for the other female whose name escapes me, she wasn't in Imperial service either, but I can't find much on her.

Your pitiful understanding is laughable. Whether or not those women were in the military is irrelevant (one of them is wearing an officer's uniform, by the way). They are members of a council that essentially buttressed Carnor Jax's regime with a power base. They were members of Imperial society. They were able to achieve positions of wealth, power, prominence, or all of the above in a state you claim to be misogynistic.

I eagerly await any proof you have to justify your continued argument in opposition to reality.

Here's a thought, provide some evidence for this sweeping, unreasonable statement that doesn't consist of invalid examples.

I love how you chose to ignore my post to you and pick up the argument directed at someone else. Brilliant strategy there. Shows real honesty on your part.

What will you dodge next, I wonder?

Really? So, you know, the whole established policy of misogyny laid down in NonhuMan is irrelevant because it doesn't benefit your argument I suppose?

I'd love to see you cite evidence that states NonhuMan is a policy of misogyny. Then again, proof has never been your forte.

I eagerly await your ignorant, blustering, factless rebuttal.

[nightmare]

How about a few more examples, since I have examined the topic to some degree?

High General with no known name

Plikk, Imperial Captain in charge of a fleet consisting of at least six Star Destroyers and battlecruisers.

Crowal, Imperial Moff of the planet Valc VII.

Drayneen, Imperial Inquisitor.

Jessa Dajus, Colonel in Imperial Intelligence, later defected to the rebels.

Leonia Tavira, youngest Moff ever.

Daala, Admiral.

Betl Oxtroe, Admiral.

Political, already mentioned:
Mon Mothma, Leia Organa.

Mahd Windcaller, Lead a news agency which fed intelligence to the Imperial Remnant. Later member of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council.

Miletta Sabrin, Imperial Governor.

Tour Aryon, Imperial Governor of Tatooine.

Isis, Imperial Governor.

Deveren, female S'kytri, Speaker of the Supreme Council for her planet while it was under Imperial control.


Business is also an important part:

Baroness Sanya Tagge, House Ruler, House of Tagge.

Dimone Irrv, Executive Vice-President Operations, House of Tagge.

Saujutta-Ok-Topii, female alien, Director of Marketing for Trigdale Metallurgy.

There is of course also a number of females in not so high positions, such as Captains Assistants Selnia Gergeroe and Kiara, Lt. Sabol, Yeoman Cligot, Lt. Arrisa Fawn, Cadet Ranna Gorjay, Officer Sabran, decorated bomber pilot Zoodia Tantra, customs officer Dalea Trovin, unnamed female army pilot in Force Commander, Cadet Huoba Neva, female Sullustan. If you were to truly dig in SW lore, I bet you could find more. You might also want to mention people like Domina Tagge, leader of a religious cult temporarily allied with Darth Vader. Because while not directly part of the government, journalists, businessfolk, and religious leaders, is definitely part of a society makeup.

[thejester]

1. On-screen lack of women in uniform

-And while you're at it, the Empire's racist because every officer is white. The Empire must hate toddlers because there are no children on-screen in the Imperial ranks. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Your "evidence" has no validity to it.

Yeah, you wouldn't expect toddlers to be there. Given that over three films we don't see one woman, don't you thinkthat's some proof towards women being discriminated against within the service?

[TC Pilot]

Yeah, you wouldn't expect toddlers to be there.

Given that over three films we don't see one woman, don't you thinkthat's some proof towards women being discriminated against within the service?

I'll respond to that with a quote from another debate much like this: "And the US military is racist against Eskimos since none of our officers are Inuits."

On a related note, outside of the two Imperial Senators, how many women do you see in the Rebel Alliance in the movies?

[Feil]

If we go strictly by onscreen stuff, there's no reason to conclude that the Empire is any more or less sexist than the Alliance. We never see a civilian leadership in the Empire, and every single Rebel soldier, from the guys that get blasted in the stormtrooper attack in the first movie to the generals and admirals in ROTJ, is male. The only women we see are in nonmilitary roles. (For that matter, until an alien species gives the Alliance a fleet, we don't see any aliens, either.) Maybe all-male militaries, monospecies are customary in the Star Wars galaxy, be it for reasons of culture or convenience.

I really haven't read enough of the EU to comment about it, and I don't intend to. Most of my exposure to the SW EU comes through this site.

[The Original Nex]

The fact that Mara Jade was able to successfully masquerade aboard an ImpStar as an Imperial Pilot implies that female pilots are at least common place enough that one would not arouse suspicion. If there were no females in the Fighter Corps or the Naval Aviators her disguise wouldnt have worked.

[Lord Revan]

I always though on the "No women or aliens"-rule so that there was different standards for women or nonhumans in regards to things like promations, so that a woman or a nonhuman could get far but they'd have do alot more work for it.

[Darth Raptor]

I know games are low-tier canon, but they're generally accepted where they don't contradict the high-tier stuff. Bearing this in mind, the old, crappy, Force Commander game features female:

TIE Bomber Pilots
Lambda Shuttle Pilots
Sentinel Lander Pilots
Heavy Dropship Pilots
APC Drivers
AT-AA Drivers

[Cao Cao]

The makeup of Imperial - and Rebel for that matter - forces in the movies is really a result of the actor-base they had at the time.
Granted, that's an out of universe explanation, but in universe we're just seeing a small portion of overall forces.

Any claims that the Empire is misogynist and racist apply to the Rebellion as well. Actually, if one is really cynical the Rebels are worse. They use entire races for their convenience because they happen to come with the big bad starships.

Now one could argue that the Republic as a whole was like this, hence the Empire and Rebel Alliance are too. But I don't buy it. As has been said, there's plenty of evidence of women in the EU (ironically, the EU writers were the ones who came up with this whole misogynist nonsense to begin with).
While I dislike the EU, these instances are not contradicted by the movies. Plus the Inside the Worlds of Star Wars book mentions Panaka - a black man - is a Moff and close friend of Palpatine. If that isn't proof against the Empire being a white male only club, I don't know what is.

[Noble Ire]

I suspect that the "state-sponsered" bigotry and sexism oft decried in the EU is similar in nature to nonhuman slavery in the Empire. Palpatine himself appears to not have been a real bigot of any sort; he used and elevated anyone who could be useful to him, regardless of gender, species, or race (Darth Maul, Sly Moore, the Emperor's Hands, Panaka, Thrawn, and all the other previously-listed examples) However, that meant he also placed people in positions of power without regard for their personal prejudices, and probably let them act on them as long as they remained loyal and within certain bounds. Slavery was technically illegal throughout the Empire, but numerous Outer Rim moffs and commanders practiced it under their own authority, and as long as they kept it out of the public view, Palpatine would let them have their fun. Similarly, some Imperial institutions might be very progressive towards the advancement of female and alien officers, while others might be commanded by misogynistic/xenophobic individuals whose administrations are unregulated by enforced equality guidelines.

[Anguirus]

The impression I get is that while the EU exaggerated the institutionalized discrimination of the Empire, the Star Wars universe is little better than our own when it comes to misogyny and racism (rather, species-ism). Women and aliens have a harder time getting ahead? I believe it! Marginalized completely? Certainly not.

The EU was singing a tune for a long time that Palpatine himself hated aliens with a passion. Episode I put that one to bed. Noble Ire has the right idea IMO: Palpatine is without morals so he doesn't care what the people under him do as long as they keep obeying him.

[TC Pilot]

It's important to note the difference between racism and misogyny ingrained into a institution and individual acts. Certainly, an entity the scope and size of the Galactic Empire inevitably has members within it, even very high and powerful officials, who are unquestionably discriminatory. Such incidents are unavoidable and inevitable. Add to that the fact many of the Core Worlds already had such humano-centric movements established. Count Dooku, for example, despised non-humans and even droids, but that does not make the CIS xenophobic.

[Eleas]

Indeed. And while the less observant long pointed toward Thrawn's treatment as evidence of segregation, the fact was that the incident actually illustrated the opposite. Thrawn's banishment was entirely for show, a convenient pretext to discourage investigation. He was ostensibly sent in disgrace to the Unknown Regions, where he would be forgotten... whereupon he was covertly provided with shitloads of manpower, ships and resources. He was Palpatine's ace in the hole; certainly no whipping boy.

EDIT: Cleaned up wording.

[Lazarus]

Yep, just lost half an hours worth of post...

I'd like to make my argument clear at this point, as it seems that it has been misunderstood.

There is a policy of institutionalised discrimination against females in the Imperial military

Your examples of senators, Inquisitors etc etc are NOT VALID because they are NOT IN THE MILITARY. You are not countering my argument by providing these as 'evidence', you are countering a strawman.

This is a direct quote about Non-huMan from Rogue Squadron:
'Kirtan assumed (Captain Iillor's) lack of fear came after years of being on the Navy's NhM track- Non-huMan. The Empire's bias against aliens and women reached an unprecedented evel of refinement in the Imperial Navy... She would have been stuck on that Carrack-class cruiser had not the defeat at Endor made the need for competent officers so great that the command staff's survivors reevaluated personnel and awarded commands according to some semblance of merit'

This is a quote about Captain Iillor:
'...one of the women who had risen to command to fill the gaps left in the Imperial Navy after the Endor debacle... (Loor) had read her file... In studying it he caught hints of how forceful she had to have been to have risen in the Imperial Navy as far as she got before the Emperor's death.'

Now let me re-address my points and your 'rebuttals'

1. On-screen lack of women in uniform

-And while you're at it, the Empire's racist because every officer is white. The Empire must hate toddlers because there are no children on-screen in the Imperial ranks. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Your "evidence" has no validity to it.

That's bullshit and you know it. There are no women on-screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. The EU states that this is due to a discriminatory policy against women in the military. This is not contradicted. This is the case.
Toddler are not seen on screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. COMMON FUCKING SENSE states that toddlers should not be in such an environment. This is the case.
This is not proof of discrimination, I never said it was, this forms part of my argument and strongly indicates that there is discrimination in place.

2. Massive bias toward male Imperial personnel

-Ah, it must be true because you say it is. Guess what? I'm George Washington. It's true because I say so.

Basic Maths Lesson For Asshats: Counting of female personnel shown on-screen shows that there are, in fact, none. Counting of male personnel shows there are many. Many to none demonstrates a term called 'bias' in mathematics. It's not true because I say it's true, it's true because basic maths says its true. This is not direct proof of discrimination, it backs up my evidence and strongly indicates my argument is true.

3. NonhuMan

-"NonhuMan" is a term labeling people who do not satisfy the requirements of "High Human Culture". In turn, High Human Culture is specifically a Human cultural supremacy movement. It does not discriminate based on gender and nothing in HHC or COMPNOR states a policy of misogyny. The capitalization of the letter "M" does not suddenly create a government policy which reduces women to the rank of second-class citizens.

Can I see your alternate definition please? I have provided mine, you must contradict it with another EU source of equal canon level, accompanied by other evidence, or a higher-canon source. The higher-canon sources back up my side of the argument, and I am aware of no definition of Non-huMan which explicitly states it is NOT a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military.

Furthermore, the Imperial Sourcebook states all sapient inhabitants of the Empire are full citizens entitled to the same rights. That, along with the existence of numerous women in prominent positions of power, already blows whatever credibility your claims of institutional misogyny has out of the water. Of course, your argument never had any credibility since you had no proof, but I digress...

The constitution of the United States of America states that all men are equal. You ever hear of the Black civil rights movement? Funny that, on account of by your reasoning they were completely equal and had nothing to complain about. The GE can ignore it's own civil rights rules with a policy of discrimination in the military if it wants to, governments can break their own bloody rules.

Shall we have a look at some of your other points?

Isard may have gained her position as Director of Imperial Intelligence through a sexual relationship with the Emperor. Or she may have been promoted for successfully framing her father and executing him herself. Which is more likely from a man such as Emperor Palpatine?

It has already been stated in this thread that Palpatine was not a bigot himself, rather he elevated people based on usefulness to him. Isard was useful; he elevated her. This is not relevant to the Imperial military and their discrimination against women, because this is at a level too high for such a policy to come into play - Palpatine overrides all.

Isard is an example of how women are not prohibited from achieving high rank in the military.

Yeah, nifty that aint it? Though, she's never been subject to the standard command hierarchy, as first her father and then Palpatine placed her where they wished. As for her takeover, this also had nothing to do with the Imperial military - it's not as if she had to go through an interview for Emperor-in-all-but-name where she could be passed over for promotion by a less capable male candidate.

The fact a woman like Mara can walk around Chimaera in a TIE Fighter pilot suit (TIE pilots are only chosen from the top 2% of the Imperial Academy, by the way) without arousing suspicion further shows women are common enough in the military.

This point is directly contradicted here:
'Iillor: I deployed my Interceptor squadron, but none of the pilots are Academy material'
Clearly, such an elitist policy cannot be maintained by the Empire. Do you seriously believe that it is still in use years after this quote, under Thrawn, when the Empire was so short of manpower that cloning was turned to as a war-winner? Or under Pellaeon's command of the Remnant, when there weren't even enough TIE's to fill the squadrons? Come on.

And second, no, it DOES NOT show that women are common enough in the military. What it does show is that a female can walk around the Chimaera without causing Imperial personnel to go running for the alarms screaming 'ZOMG THERS NO WIMMINS IN TEH EMPIRE!'. The presence of a few dozen female personnel in the Chimaera's 35,000-ish crew would mean all Mara would generate would be a 'hmmph, a woman' response, just like the Deck Officer shown earlier.

You can not reasonably claim a government that permits a woman to openly rule is institutionally backing a legal policy of misogyny.

Yes I can, I've shown my evidence, where's yours? PROVE that Non-huMan is NOT a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military.

On top of that, prove Isard earned her position by sleeping with Palpatine.

It is intentionally left ambiguous by the author, however it is strongly inferred in Isard's Revenge I believe. Either way, both Leonia Tavira and Daala earned their positions through being the mistresses of powerful men.

That in no way proves the entire Galactic Empire is systemically designed to intentionally discourage and deprive women of their rights and ability to succeed.

I am not making that point, please stop strawmanning my argument.

Your pitiful understanding is laughable. Whether or not those women were in the military is irrelevant

Wait, let me get this straight, you are suggesting that whether the women in question are in the military or not is not relevant to my argument, which is:

There is a policy of institutionalised discrimination against females in the Imperial military



Do I have to actually bother countering that?

What will you dodge next, I wonder?

Some more points that counter an argument I'm not making, probably.

I'd love to see you cite evidence that states NonhuMan is a policy of misogyny. Then again, proof has never been your forte.

Oh look, I have... funny how you actually don't have any countering evidence, isn't it? Odd that.

I eagerly await your ignorant, blustering, factless rebuttal.

Countering evidence. Now.

[Lazarus]

High General with no known name

Plikk, Imperial Captain in charge of a fleet consisting of at least six Star Destroyers and battlecruisers.

Crowal, Imperial Moff of the planet Valc VII.

Drayneen, Imperial Inquisitor.

Jessa Dajus, Colonel in Imperial Intelligence, later defected to the rebels.

Leonia Tavira, youngest Moff ever.

Daala, Admiral.

Betl Oxtroe, Admiral.

Political, already mentioned:
Mon Mothma, Leia Organa.

Mahd Windcaller, Lead a news agency which fed intelligence to the Imperial Remnant. Later member of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council.

Miletta Sabrin, Imperial Governor.

Tour Aryon, Imperial Governor of Tatooine.

Isis, Imperial Governor.

Deveren, female S'kytri, Speaker of the Supreme Council for her planet while it was under Imperial control.


Business is also an important part:

Baroness Sanya Tagge, House Ruler, House of Tagge.

Dimone Irrv, Executive Vice-President Operations, House of Tagge.

Saujutta-Ok-Topii, female alien, Director of Marketing for Trigdale Metallurgy.

There is of course also a number of females in not so high positions, such as Captains Assistants Selnia Gergeroe and Kiara, Lt. Sabol, Yeoman Cligot, Lt. Arrisa Fawn, Cadet Ranna Gorjay, Officer Sabran, decorated bomber pilot Zoodia Tantra, customs officer Dalea Trovin, unnamed female army pilot in Force Commander, Cadet Huoba Neva, female Sullustan. If you were to truly dig in SW lore, I bet you could find more. You might also want to mention people like Domina Tagge, leader of a religious cult temporarily allied with Darth Vader. Because while not directly part of the government, journalists, businessfolk, and religious leaders, is definitely part of a society makeup.

High General: Erm, toy? Is that any level of canon at all? Cos the Millenium Falcon ain't a transformer... Either way, with no background, it's entirely possible this women reached her rank through means similar to Tavira or Daala, or even through sheer tenacity and links with High Command.

Plikk: A female could well rise to the rank of Captain, in this case a Commodore, given the right links. What I'm saying is that such Captains are not equally prevalent as male ones due to discrimination.

Moff: I'm not sure what the relationship of the Mofferance is with the military. Have Moffs risen through the ranks? Is there anything to say this Moff simply rose through the chain of command in the same way as any man, implying Non-huMan didn't apply to her for some reason? At any rate, she is a Moff in the Remnant, when Non-huMan and such discrimination has been abolished, so this is irrelevant.

Inquisitor: Non-military

Intelligence Colonel: It's possible she reached her rank in a similar way to Captain Iillor - I'm not saying it's impossible, just very difficult. That she has force-intuition suggests that she may have been elevated for such skills.

Tavira: Reached her rank because she was the mistress (wife?) of Grand Moff Thalril Tavira.

Daala: Reached her rank because she was the mistress of Grand Moff Tarkin.

Admiral: There's no information on her career, so any number of factors could have contributed.

Senators: Non-military

Windcaller: Non-military

Governor: AFAIK, unless it's a Military Governor, Imperial Governor's are not necessarily part of the military.

Deveren: Non-military, not only that she was elected by her own people, not the Empire.

The rest of the examples are either non-military, or low enough in rank that they don't provide any sort of counter to my point.

If we go strictly by onscreen stuff, there's no reason to conclude that the Empire is any more or less sexist than the Alliance.

Yes, but why would we? EU evidence states that the Imperial military is discriminatory, it does not state the Rebel/NR military is, and as such there's no proof it is.

The fact that Mara Jade was able to successfully masquerade aboard an ImpStar as an Imperial Pilot implies that female pilots are at least common place enough that one would not arouse suspicion. If there were no females in the Fighter Corps or the Naval Aviators her disguise wouldnt have worked.

True, as I have said, and I'm not saying there aren't any. What I am saying is that they are discriminated against, meaning there aren't many.

I always though on the "No women or aliens"-rule so that there was different standards for women or nonhumans in regards to things like promations, so that a woman or a nonhuman could get far but they'd have do alot more work for it.

Exactly the point I'm making, thank you.

[Steel]

Indeed. And while the less observant long pointed toward Thrawn's treatment as evidence of segregation, the fact was that the incident actually illustrated the opposite. Thrawn's banishment was entirely for show, a convenient pretext to discourage investigation. He was ostensibly sent in disgrace to the Unknown Regions, where he would be forgotten... whereupon he was covertly provided with shitloads of manpower, ships and resources. He was Palpatine's ace in the hole; certainly no whipping boy.

EDIT: Cleaned up wording.

Hang on a minute, you're saying that there is no institutional policy of treating aliens as less than humans by providint the example of an alien being publicly stated as being banished to a shithole?

Whether or not it was actually secretly because palpatine wanted him to become powerful or whatever is irrelevant. It clearly demonstrates imperial bias against aliens because he is shoved off in disgrace, and nobody thinks anythign of it as he is an alien and such treatment is entirely ok.

[Ender]

Hang on a minute, you're saying that there is no institutional policy of treating aliens as less than humans by providint the example of an alien being publicly stated as being banished to a shithole?

Whether or not it was actually secretly because palpatine wanted him to become powerful or whatever is irrelevant. It clearly demonstrates imperial bias against aliens because he is shoved off in disgrace, and nobody thinks anythign of it as he is an alien and such treatment is entirely ok.

He was shoved off in disgrace because he played in court politics and appeared to get burnt, not because he was an alien. I can point to far more humans who were banished for political reasons then you can aliens. It helps to consider the reasoning behind things rather then making it up to support your point.

[TC Pilot]

Lazarus:

There is a policy of institutionalised discrimination against females in the Imperial military

That's nice. Here's your original argument:

The Empire maintained an anti-female and anti-alien policy (there's an acronym for it, possibly made by COMPNOR) detailed in the Jedi Academy series. This was, however, abolished by the Imperial Remnant once Daala took command, and was ignored in some circles before that.

You'll have to pardon me for misrepresenting you, slightly.

Your examples of senators, Inquisitors etc etc are NOT VALID because they are NOT IN THE MILITARY. You are not countering my argument by providing these as 'evidence', you are countering a strawman.

Emphasis mine.

'Kirtan assumed (Captain Iillor's) lack of fear came after years of being on the Navy's NhM track- Non-huMan. The Empire's bias against aliens and women reached an unprecedented evel of refinement in the Imperial Navy... She would have been stuck on that Carrack-class cruiser had not the defeat at Endor made the need for competent officers so great that the command staff's survivors reevaluated personnel and awarded commands according to some semblance of merit'

I simply love the use of the word 'unprecedented'. Do you know what 'unprecedented' means?

And from the sound of it, Captain Iilior determined she would not meet the standards of High Human Culture, thus deserving her title as "Non-huMan". After all, it is just a title.

That's how these things work. Nifty, ain't it?

...one of the women who had risen to command to fill the gaps left in the Imperial Navy after the Endor debacle... (Loor) had read her file... In studying it he caught hints of how forceful she had to have been to have risen in the Imperial Navy as far as she got before the Emperor's death.'

Right. In spite of her being merely competent, she was able to rise in rank by virtue of her forceful personality. I'm sorry, but what military openly carrying out a policy of misogyny awards women for being forceful?

That's bullshit and you know it. There are no women on-screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. The EU states that this is due to a discriminatory policy against women in the military. This is not contradicted. This is the case.

It actually is contradicted. You've just chosen to ignore it. The constitution of the Galactic Empire guarantees equal rights. Government constitution trumps the actions of a few powerful bigots in the military. Bigotry, mind you, by your own admission that is unprecedented".

Toddler are not seen on screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. COMMON FUCKING SENSE states that toddlers should not be in such an environment.

I feel the urge to use another quote from an early debate like this one: "See, you seem to misunderstand what the word example means....Again, that logic thing. I hear it's a riot. Those Greek dudes especially love it."

Basic Maths Lesson For Asshats: Counting of female personnel shown on-screen shows that there are, in fact, none. Counting of male personnel shows there are many. Many to none demonstrates a term called 'bias' in mathematics. It's not true because I say it's true, it's true because basic maths says its true. This is not direct proof of discrimination, it backs up my evidence and strongly indicates my argument is true.

No, it just shows how you're relying upon logical fallacies to bolster an incorrect stance. The lack of women in the ranks shown on-screen is as irrelevant as it is for the Rebels. We know there are women in the military and we know many of them hold prominent and notable positions. We also know Mara Jade in a TIE pilot's uniform unhelmeted (again, only the top 10% (2% was my mistake) of Academy graduates went into the TIE Corps) running around Chimaera's hanger raised no suspicion whatsoever. The fact the one trillionth of a percent of the military had no visible females in it is unsubstantial.

Can I see your alternate definition please? I have provided mine, you must contradict it with another EU source of equal canon level, accompanied by other evidence, or a higher-canon source. The higher-canon sources back up my side of the argument, and I am aware of no definition of Non-huMan which explicitly states it is NOT a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military.

Simple: the very foundation of "Non-huMan" is High Human Culture. It's a glorification of HUMANS, not men. Non-huMan is a title, not policy.

The constitution of the United States of America states that all men are equal. You ever hear of the Black civil rights movement? Funny that, on account of by your reasoning they were completely equal and had nothing to complain about. The GE can ignore it's own civil rights rules with a policy of discrimination in the military if it wants to, governments can break their own bloody rules.

Congratulations on failing basic civics. The United States Constitution does not state that all men are equal. You may be thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which has no bearing on the supreme law of the land.

And yes, various individuals may be able to violate that "supreme law of the land", but that's irrelevant and completely in accordance with my argument.

It has already been stated in this thread that Palpatine was not a bigot himself, rather he elevated people based on usefulness to him. Isard was useful; he elevated her. This is not relevant to the Imperial military and their discrimination against women, because this is at a level too high for such a policy to come into play - Palpatine overrides all.

Indeed, Palpatine does override all. He's the Emperor. The heart and soul of the Empire, and he dictates policy and law of the Empire and all the various administrators, officials, and officers of the state. His will is policy in and of itself. And he's not a bigot, by your own admission. Meaning the misogyny conducted by various officials is not in accordance with the will of the Emperor.

I can see why you said your argument was a strawman all the more clearly now.

Yeah, nifty that aint it? Though, she's never been subject to the standard command hierarchy, as first her father and then Palpatine placed her where they wished. As for her takeover, this also had nothing to do with the Imperial military - it's not as if she had to go through an interview for Emperor-in-all-but-name where she could be passed over for promotion by a less capable male candidate.

Nah, just the people like Sate Pestage and Ars Dangor who actually ran the Empire. Minor obstacles, of course.

But, you're right. Having a woman in charge of a branch of the Imperial military means nothing in a debate over the misogynistic policy of the Imperial military.

'Iillor: I deployed my Interceptor squadron, but none of the pilots are Academy material'

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that dialouge > Imperial Sourcebook

Although I will offer the correction that it was 10%, not 2%.

Yes I can, I've shown my evidence, where's yours? PROVE that Non-huMan is NOT a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military.

It's a title. Titles aren't policy. High Human Culture is a human cultural supremacy movement.

It is intentionally left ambiguous by the author, however it is strongly inferred in Isard's Revenge I believe. Either way, both Leonia Tavira and Daala earned their positions through being the mistresses of powerful men.

Yes, and Daala was an incompetent moron with a poor knowledge of how the Empire actually worked and Tavira simply impersonated her husband. Isard is much more capable than either of them.

Do I have to actually bother countering that?

*shrug* Maybe the part where I said one of those women on the IRC is in uniform...? But at this point, it really doesn't matter.

Since you have admitted your argument is a strawman, sexism in the Imperial Navy was "unprecedented", the Emperor is not a bigot, failed to substantiate the claim the title "Non-huMan" was an actual governmental or military institutional policy, failed to prove Isard used sex to achieve her position, and done nothing to refute the fact the Empire's constitution grants women equal rights, I dismiss this claim of sexism and misogyny due to a severe lack of corroborating evidence.

Thank you, and nice try.

[Cao Cao]

That's bullshit and you know it. There are no women on-screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. The EU states that this is due to a discriminatory policy against women in the military. This is not contradicted. This is the case.
Toddler are not seen on screen in the Imperial military. There must be some reason for this. COMMON FUCKING SENSE states that toddlers should not be in such an environment. This is the case.
This is not proof of discrimination, I never said it was, this forms part of my argument and strongly indicates that there is discrimination in place.

All this proves is that certain incompetent EU writers chose to interpret what they saw on-screen as discrimination because after all, the Empire is TEH EVAL!
And yet, this is rarely applied to the Rebellion. This leap in logic by the EU also happens to be contradicted by the EU.

[Lazarus]

That's nice. Here's your original argument:

Quote:
The Empire maintained an anti-female and anti-alien policy (there's an acronym for it, possibly made by COMPNOR) detailed in the Jedi Academy series. This was, however, abolished by the Imperial Remnant once Daala took command, and was ignored in some circles before that.

No, that was a continuation, HERE is my original argument:

That's another nitpick, in a Stormtrooper Corps which generally excludes women (very rare few exceptions like Daala), the Railrunners (a squad of 6) have two women... :/

I was speaking in reference to the Imperial forces, which should have been clear because the entire argument was based on a squad of stormtroopers, and I repeatedly stated this. If this was not clear to you, sorry, but this still makes most of your points worthless.

I simply love the use of the word 'unprecedented'. Do you know what 'unprecedented' means?

Do you know what refinement means? Stop trying to twist the quote, it states that discrimination against women and aliens was greater in the Imperial Navy than other branches of the military, NOT that it was ONLY in the Navy.

And from the sound of it, Captain Iilior determined she would not meet the standards of High Human Culture, thus deserving her title as "Non-huMan".

Know why? Because she was a woman. This is what the entire passage is about, stop trying to twist it.

Right. In spite of her being merely competent, she was able to rise in rank by virtue of her forceful personality.

Again, that's not what the passage says. Let me break it down for you, clearly you seem to be wanting to shoehorn it into your argument when it supports mine. Iillor is a woman. She had to be forceful because she was not treated equal to men, and hence it was the only way she could achieve any semblance of EQUALITY. The very quote itself is about Imperial command having to change their policy of discrimination in some cases in order to fill places with competent officers.

It actually is contradicted.

Is it really? SHOW. ME. YOUR. EVIDENCE.
You have, yet again, completely ignored my call for evidence.

1. Show me the quote about the constitution, right now.
2. It does NOT 'trump' Non-huMan. Know why? Because the movies fucking trump it. Wookiee slaves ahoy? Genocide anyone (DS1)? The constitution may claim equal rights, but it is clearly NOT practiced in reality. Do you seriously believe that a government like the GE couldn't say one thing and do another? They slag entire worlds and murder billions of innocents for fucks sake!
3. You MUST provide a source which states that Non-huMan does NOT apply, and hence there is no discrimination in the military. You can't just ignore this source, you have to directly counter it.

No, it just shows how you're relying upon logical fallacies to bolster an incorrect stance.

Really? So what your saying here is that the fact there are NO women shown on-screen in the Imperial forces, and that there are NO women shown in MOST other sources, and extremely few in the handful where they appear, isn't viable supporting evidence for my argument? Have you perhaps ever encountered the concept of argument construction? Where you make your point with relevant supporting evidence as well as definate sources? No, it appears not.

The fact the one trillionth of a percent of the military had no visible females in it is unsubstantial.

Right, ok, so let me get this straight. You are saying that the fact that there are exactly NO women in the VAST majority of sources depicting the Imperial military, from the highest canon down to the lowest, is in no way supportive of a discriminatory stance in the service, which is then confirmed by Non-huMan, and NOT DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED ANYWHERE?

Simple: the very foundation of "Non-huMan" is High Human Culture. It's a glorification of HUMANS, not men. Non-huMan is a title, not policy.

Can I see your alternate definition please? Because that was a blatant sidestep. Give me the source which states that Non-huMan does not apply, right now, or you lose. It's that simple, because the weight of direct evidence is on my side here, and no matter how much you whine and twist my points, unless you provide evidence which states it does not apply, your argument is overridden.

Congratulations on failing basic civics. The United States Constitution does not state that all men are equal. You may be thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which has no bearing on the supreme law of the land.

Apologies, I'm not a US student. At any rate, if you can negate my point on discrimination from Daala, I can negate yours because the sourcebook was written by a Rebel, and has many other inconsistencies. I don't intend to, because that's retarded, you can't throw out a whole source because of some incorrect parts, but that seems to be what you've done with Daala.

And yes, various individuals may be able to violate that "supreme law of the land", but that's irrelevant and completely in accordance with my argument.

Really? So that the Empire is a corrupt totalitarian state that does whatever it fucking wants, and can quite easily say one thing as propaganda, then do another, supports your argument does it? So the Empire toes the line with lawmaking and can never infringe upon the rights it has granted to its people? Have you ever seen Star Wars? Does the word 'Alderaan' mean anything to you? Because I'm pretty sure genocide infringes civil rights.

His will is policy in and of itself. And he's not a bigot, by your own admission. Meaning the misogyny conducted by various officials is not in accordance with the will of the Emperor.

So it's entirely impossible that the Emperor could personally believe one thing, and represent another in his policies then? He wasn't a bigot, and so therefore there was no discrimination against women or aliens in the Empire at all? The Galactic Empire was, in fact, a free-thinking society which upheld the virtues of equality and maintained a stance of anti-discrimination and anti-racism? That's retarded, and in direct contravention of god knows how many sources, but it seems to be what you're saying.

I can see why you said your argument was a strawman all the more clearly now.

You can be a smarmy arsehole all you want, but you've yet to actually provide any direct quotes whatsoever, so I'd be running for the sourcebooks right now if I were you. And no, I said YOU'RE representation of my argument was a strawman.

Nah, just the people like Sate Pestage and Ars Dangor who actually ran the Empire. Minor obstacles, of course.

The point I'm making here is that there is discrimination within the service. This does NOT mean that no women can serve succesfully, it DOES mean that they are discouraged from doing so, and if they do, it will be much harder for them than for men. Isard never climbed through the chain of command in the service. She never dealt with Non-huMan, because she was placed in her position by first her father, and then the Emperor. She was then able to take control of the WHOLE EMPIRE, outside the services where this discrimination did not apply as a rule.

Although I will offer the correction that it was 10%, not 2%

That seems a bit more reasonable, when you take into account the other roles pilots would be needed for. At any rate, the sourcebook only applies to Imperial policy between the Battle of Yavin and Endor, after that it is no longer necessarily valid. It seems likely, based on resource shortages, that it might no longer apply in Thrawn's campaign.

It's a title. Titles aren't policy. High Human Culture is a human cultural supremacy movement.

No, but POLICY is POLICY. The quote explicitly states Non-huMan to be a policy of discrimination.

Yes, and Daala was an incompetent moron with a poor knowledge of how the Empire actually worked and Tavira simply impersonated her husband. Isard is much more capable than either of them.

You don't like the examples, so they're invalid? Bullshit, they both demonstrate that women were at a disadvantage in the Imperial forces, and had to look for other means of promotion. Isard WAS NOT PROMOTED THROUGH THE RANKS, and as such is NOT a good example, because she did NOT have to deal with the same discriminatory policies.

*shrug* Maybe the part where I said one of those women on the IRC is in uniform...? But at this point, it really doesn't matter.

Yes, one of them is. She has no rank, her name is Maud Windcaller. She is NOT part of the military, she's a media baron. As for why she chose to wear clothing in the cut of an Imperial officer, who knows, but she wears no rank insignia, and even if she did, could not have any legitimate claim to that rank.

Since you have admitted your argument is a strawman, sexism in the Imperial Navy was "unprecedented", the Emperor is not a bigot, failed to substantiate the claim the title "Non-huMan" was an actual governmental or military institutional policy, failed to prove Isard used sex to achieve her position, and done nothing to refute the fact the Empire's constitution grants women equal rights, I dismiss this claim of sexism and misogyny due to a severe lack of corroborating evidence.

1. No, I quite clearly said your representation of my argument was a strawman. You seem to be having trouble with what a strawman is. It is when an opponent in a debate changes your argument to better defeat it, then claims they have defeated your argument, as you have done. Your definition is incorrect.
2. No, the quote does not say that, it states that discrimination in the Navy reached an 'unprecedented level of refinement', ie, it was stronger in the Navy than elsewhere, not that it was only in the Navy.
3. No, the Emperor wasn't a bigot. This does not mean that the Empire could not maintain policies of discrimination in it's armed forces.
4. No, the quote I have provided states that Non-huMan is an institutional policy of discrimination against both females and aliens within the Imperial Navy. It also states that discrimination is prevalent elsewhere in the Imperial forces, but not to the same level as the Navy. The quote you have provided... oh wait, you haven't. Funny how you haven't provided any actual quoted evidence, and yet claim to have the better-founded argument isn't it?
5. No, that's not actually important, what is important is that Isard was put in her position by first her father, then palpatine, and as such was not subject to policies of discrimination concerning promotion.
6. Oh noes! The Imperial constitution states all beings are equal! There's no way the Empire could ever infringe upon that! Oh wait, it's a totalitarian regime, of course it can. Please provide quoted evidence.
7. I dismiss your claim that the Empire does not maintain a policy of discrimination in the armed forces because, unlike yourself, I have presented quoted evidence, given supporting evidence from various canon levels and drawn a conclusion based on a directly quoted policy backed up by repeated references to misogyny in the forces across the entire EU.

Present quoted evidence now. If you try to sidestep again, and come back with anything less than proof of Non-huMan not applying, then it'll be pretty clear you don't have any.

[Lazarus]

This leap in logic by the EU also happens to be contradicted by the EU.

I'm interested in where this is, do you have a direct quote please?

[Cao Cao]

This leap in logic by the EU also happens to be contradicted by the EU.

I'm interested in where this is, do you have a direct quote please?

The evidence of women serving in the Imperial military already cited from this thread. Where do you think it comes from?
You merely cherry-pick the parts of the EU convenient to your argument, ignoring the fact that it's self-contradictory.

[Lord Relvenous]

In response to the argument that Non-huMan is a High Human Culture movement and only applies to discrimination against aliens, well there is a reason that the 'M' is capitalized. The policy is against those who are not human and not male. I find myself confused to see people arguing that it only applies to aliens.

And on a side note, please do present some more quoted evidence TC Pilot, it gets annoying when you just try to proclaim his arguments and evidence invalid without presenting your own.

[TC Pilot]

Do you know what refinement means? Stop trying to twist the quote, it states that discrimination against women and aliens was greater in the Imperial Navy than other branches of the military, NOT that it was ONLY in the Navy.

A branch of the military which still allowed women to attain high rank. And those are just the women the EU bothered mentioning. That is not a policy of misogyny.

Know why? Because she was a woman. This is what the entire passage is about, stop trying to twist it.

Your insistence that a human cultural supremacy movement specificly or doctrinally discriminates against women without bothering to substantiate the claim grows tiresome. Read any source on High Human Culture. The discrimination of women is a by-product of the organization and only carried out on an individual basis.

Again, that's not what the passage says. Let me break it down for you, clearly you seem to be wanting to shoehorn it into your argument when it supports mine. Iillor is a woman. She had to be forceful because she was not treated equal to men, and hence it was the only way she could achieve any semblance of EQUALITY. The very quote itself is about Imperial command having to change their policy of discrimination in some cases in order to fill places with competent officers.

I know what the quote says. She was a competent officer and following the obliteration of the Empire's pool of best officers, she was able to rise further in rank where she had otherwise only been able to advance by forcful personality. A military with a policy of misogyny would not promote a woman who is 'forceful'. Common sense > your delusions.

1. Show me the quote about the constitution, right now.

It's in the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition. I don't have it. I got the information from the Domus Publica website.

2. It does NOT 'trump' Non-huMan. Know why? Because the movies fucking trump it. Wookiee slaves ahoy? Genocide anyone (DS1)? The constitution may claim equal rights, but it is clearly NOT practiced in reality. Do you seriously believe that a government like the GE couldn't say one thing and do another? They slag entire worlds and murder billions of innocents for fucks sake!

There are no Wookiee slaves in the movies, asshat. Further, species like they and the Mon Cal were reclassified as non-sapient. That allowed slavery (which was illegal) to be conducted. Alderaan's destruction, notably, was carried out on Grand Moff Tarkin's initiative alone, in violation of Vader's, and thereby Palpatine's, wishes. Never mind the fact Wookiees and Alderaani were in a state of open rebellion against the Empire.

Again, the actions of a few officials, even powerful ones, in violation of the law are inevitable in a nation the scope of the Empire and to the degree with which the Imperial system grants governing officials latitude in their respective regions of control.

3. You MUST provide a source which states that Non-huMan does NOT apply, and hence there is no discrimination in the military. You can't just ignore this source, you have to directly counter it.

Are you dense or something? Non-huMan is a title. It's no more a policy of discrimination than the word "nigger", "gook", "Kraut", or "pinko commie bed wetter" is.

Really? So what your saying here is that the fact there are NO women shown on-screen in the Imperial forces, and that there are NO women shown in MOST other sources, and extremely few in the handful where they appear, isn't viable supporting evidence for my argument?

Of course it isn't. You need to prove causation that the lack of women on-screen or in the armed services altogether was attributed to an administrative or doctrinal policy of misogyny.

Can I see your alternate definition please? Because that was a blatant sidestep. Give me the source which states that Non-huMan does not apply, right now, or you lose. It's that simple, because the weight of direct evidence is on my side here, and no matter how much you whine and twist my points, unless you provide evidence which states it does not apply, your argument is overridden.

Look up High Human Culture in any source it exists in. Wookieepedia it if you must. Actually learn what the meanings behin the terms you use before spewing them out in a never-ending cycle of self-repetive dodging and strawmaning.

Apologies, I'm not a US student. At any rate, if you can negate my point on discrimination from Daala, I can negate yours because the sourcebook was written by a Rebel, and has many other inconsistencies. I don't intend to, because that's retarded, you can't throw out a whole source because of some incorrect parts, but that seems to be what you've done with Daala.

In the first place, Daala herself admitted that she did not graduate from the Military Academy in Darksaber and further admitted that she was in fact a corporal when she first met Tarkin on Carida, demonstrating conclusively that she was not a commissioned officer in the Imperial Navy, nor even an enlisted sailor. Add to that her pathetically dismal performance in battle and you see why she was passed over for promotion and military command.

Further, I am simply dumbstruck by how you can actually think to justify dismissing a source saying the Empire granted its citizens equal rights because the author was a Rebel. Wouldn't that Rebel be just a wee bit biased AGAINST the Empire?

And rewarding forceful women in a misogynistic military mkes perfect sense too, while you're at it.

Does the word 'Alderaan' mean anything to you? Because I'm pretty sure genocide infringes civil rights.

This is one of those classic arguments that is so often used and equally often torn to shreds. Did you watch Star Wars? Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan, not the Empire. Tarkin, acting directly in contradiction to Vader (who in the ANH novelization insisted Tarkin recieve authorization from the Emperor but was outright dismissed).

Not only did Tarkin act without the Emperor's approval, but Alderaan had committed treason against the Empire.

You can be a smarmy arsehole all you want, but you've yet to actually provide any direct quotes whatsoever, so I'd be running for the sourcebooks right now if I were you.

That would be a sensible thing to do if I actually owned them.

The point I'm making here is that there is discrimination within the service.

Well of course there is. Any twit can see that. It's an inevitable and unpreventable occurence. Whether that discrimination was practiced on a military-wide basis as strict procedure and policy is another matter entirely. And doing so would have been in direct contradiction of the Empire's constitution and the precdents of the Empire.

She never dealt with Non-huMan, because she was placed in her position by first her father, and then the Emperor.

And the actions of the Emperor blow whatever substance your argument has out of the water. Face it, you can't refute the Empire's constitution or the Galactic Emperor himself. No number of tantrums thrown over a cultural supremacy movement's label can change that.

That seems a bit more reasonable, when you take into account the other roles pilots would be needed for. At any rate, the sourcebook only applies to Imperial policy between the Battle of Yavin and Endor, after that it is no longer necessarily valid. It seems likely, based on resource shortages, that it might no longer apply in Thrawn's campaign.

The shortage wouldn't be that desperate by the X-Wing series. Iilior simply could have been given TIE squadrons from a regional force.

You don't like the examples, so they're invalid? Bullshit, they both demonstrate that women were at a disadvantage in the Imperial forces, and had to look for other means of promotion.

They're invalid because Daala was an incompetent Academy drop-out and Tavira was a civilian who decided to simply replace her husband rather than have Imperial Center send a replacement Moff to the system. Come on, use common sense here.

Isard WAS NOT PROMOTED THROUGH THE RANKS, and as such is NOT a good example, because she did NOT have to deal with the same discriminatory policies.

Actually, she's a perfect example because the Emperor's will is of absolute importance here. Palpatine has no qualms with promoting a woman. Palpatine > your warped view of High Human Culture.

Imperial constitution + Palpatine > your warped view of High Human Culture.

EDIT- The Imperial Sourcebook is unfortunately not available to me at the moment for the neccesary quotes. I'll try and find it later this week when I have the chance.

[Cao Cao]

Non-huMan is nonsense made up by the EU.
It goes against basic logic. As I've said, EU writers see the movies and conclude that the Empire is discriminatory.
But they ignore the fact that the Rebellion is equally discriminatory. Only changing slightly in RotJ when (surprise surprise) they're in their hour of greatest need and the aliens just happen to be the ones with the massive starships. And there are still ZERO women in the Rebellion military in the movies.

Therefore, if we watch the movies and conclude that the Empire has a policy of discrimination then this policy is shared by the Rebellion.
If the Rebellion - the Alliance to Restore the Republic - carries on this discrimination then so would the Republic. If the Republic did, then it's not Imperial policy at all, and Non-huMan is just a buzzword used by hack EU authors who can't write antagonists as anything other than mustache-twirling landlords.

Edit: Given this.. and examples in the EU of military positions given to women and aliens.. the Empire is in fact more progressive than the Republic!
All hail Palpatine the Emancipator!