Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[Lazarus]

The evidence of women serving in the Imperial military already cited from this thread. Where do you think it comes from?

I have already dealt with these examples. Of them, two MAY have reached their positions through standard means.
ALL of the remainder are either:
1. Non military
2. Reached their position through illicit means, or due to abnormal skills (eg, force intuition)

As for Captain Plikk herself, who may have been promoted through the CoC normally, she is from a Marvel comic, and seems to wear a superhero costume...
She has a small command, and her XO is a a Lieutenant, suggesting it isn't a significant one. Further, she is posted to a remote, backwater sector. This is no way goes against my argument; rather, her posting fits in well with it.

At any rate, are you suggesting that the fact that there are women serving in the forces, and perhaps even a very few in higher ranks, means that, categorically, there cannot be any discrimination? This doesn't follow, and in no way contradicts Non-huMan - a policy established specifically to deal with both women and aliens in Imperial service, which of course means that there must be at least some in order for them to be discriminated against. Remember, I'm not saying there aren't any women, just that they are rare due to discrimination.

You merely cherry-pick the parts of the EU convenient to your argument, ignoring the fact that it's self-contradictory.

It isn't self contradictory.
The EU establishes that there is discrimination against women in the conventional Imperial military, based on obvious film evidence. This is not an unreasonable conclusion.
The EU also establishes there are some women serving in the Imperial forces. This does not contradict the first assertion.
The EU also establishes there are a handful of women in positions of power in the military, the vast majority of whom (remember we're already talking about a very small group) attained their positions through illicit means, or due to special circumstances. It is stated in several of these cases that this was necessary due to discrimination This does not contradict the first assertion.

[Steel]

Non-huMan is nonsense made up by the EU.
It goes against basic logic. As I've said, EU writers see the movies and conclude that the Empire is discriminatory.
But they ignore the fact that the Rebellion is equally discriminatory. Only changing slightly in RotJ when (surprise surprise) they're in their hour of greatest need and the aliens just happen to be the ones with the massive starships. And there are still ZERO women in the Rebellion military in the movies.

Therefore, if we watch the movies and conclude that the Empire has a policy of discrimination then this policy is shared by the Rebellion.
If the Rebellion - the Alliance to Restore the Republic - carries on this discrimination then so would the Republic. If the Republic did, then it's not Imperial policy at all, and Non-huMan is just a buzzword used by hack EU authors who can't write antagonists as anything other than mustache-twirling landlords.

Edit: Given this.. and examples in the EU of military positions given to women and aliens.. the Empire is in fact more progressive than the Republic!
All hail Palpatine the Emancipator!

I think you quite massively miss the point here.

It might be that there is no bias displayed by the movies, and really given the size of the GE we do not see enough of the fleet to makle an accurate judgement on its entire composition, HOWEVER in the EU it specifically states that there IS a policy of discrimination against aliens and females in the empire. The films do not directly contradict this (and over the trilogy support it). Thus it stands.

It might be retarded for the EU authors to state that there is such a policy, but it is the canon. Just as it is always retarded for things such as a species confined to a single system to present a galactic scale threat, or for the fleets to have horrible minimalism, yet that is canon.

Also, i think that there were in fact some female pilots in the battle of endor, and in several other things (games especially(mechanics aside, only plotwise), the alliance has many more female characters than the empire, which typically has none.)


I would like to say that i dont like the idea of the empire being sexist or racist, and that i didnt think that immediately on watching the films, but if you include the EU, then that is the way in which they are depicted by the (somewhat braindead) eu authors.

[Cao Cao]

I have already dealt with these examples. Of them, two MAY have reached their positions through standard means.
ALL of the remainder are either:
1. Non military
2. Reached their position through illicit means, or due to abnormal skills (eg, force intuition)

Yes, you immediately assume that these "illicit means" have more merit than their ability as military personnel, even when stated otherwise.

It might be that there is no bias displayed by the movies, and really given the size of the GE we do not see enough of the fleet to makle an accurate judgement on its entire composition, HOWEVER in the EU it specifically states that there IS a policy of discrimination against aliens and females in the empire. The films do not directly contradict this (and over the trilogy support it). Thus it stands.

And what I am stating is, that if you reach the conclusion that the Empire is dicriminatory based on the movies, then logically you must reach the same conclusion for the Rebellion.

Also, i think that there were in fact some female pilots in the battle of endor, and in several other things (games especially(mechanics aside, only plotwise), the alliance has many more female characters than the empire, which typically has none.)

There were none in RotJ. There was a black man and an asian. And of course Lando. But no women. All pilots, by the way.
Given that TIE pilots wear full masks and never talk we can't say what race/gender they are from movie evidence.

I would like to say that i dont like the idea of the empire being sexist or racist, and that i didnt think that immediately on watching the films, but if you include the EU, then that is the way in which they are depicted by the (somewhat braindead) eu authors.

My assertion is, either Imperial discrimination must be dismissed, because it's derived from faulty conclusions.. or we accept it asRepublic discrimination because that's the only thing the movies can support if you interpret it that way.
Either way, Non-huMan is a crock of shit.

[Lazarus]

Your insistence that a human cultural supremacy movement specificly or doctrinally discriminates against women without bothering to substantiate the claim grows tiresome

Your insistence that 'High Human Culture' is linked to Non-huMan is based on your own assertion, and you have provided no evidence the two are linked. Please do so, although you're not one for providing quoted evidence it would seem; if you don't have the evidence, don't make the assertion, because you can't back it up with anything other than your own words.

A military with a policy of misogyny would not promote a woman who is 'forceful'. Common sense > your delusions.

Oh for fucks sake, I presume you don't have the book? Because you have yet again completely misunderstood the entire passage. It is stated that Iillor had to be forceful to defeat Imperial discrimination, not that Imperial command decided 'forcefulness' was a quality they wanted. Seriously, you can't twist the quote to support your side, the whole thing is about discrimination.

It's in the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition. I don't have it. I got the information from the Domus Publica website.

Right then, well with lack of actual evidence on your part, I'd be asking someone who does have it to provide the quote for you, or withdraw the point.

Further, species like they and the Mon Cal were reclassified as non-sapient.

Indeed they were, thank you for providing an example of the GE breaking its own rules; it makes the damn rules, so it can 'reclassify' a species if it wants, and it can discriminate against women in the military if it damn well wants.

Are you dense or something? Non-huMan is a title.

Are you illiterate or something? The NhM track is an institutionalised policy created by the Navy for keeping track of it's female and alien personnel, and discriminating against them. An analogy might be a 'Nigger Track' for example, for keeping track of and discriminating against black people. Read the bloody quote.

You need to prove causation that the lack of women on-screen or in the armed services altogether was attributed to an administrative or doctrinal policy of misogyny.

No, because I'm not using it as a piece of evidence that proves the Empire discriminated, I'm using it as evidence that INDICATES that there is some reason for the lack of women. This reason is then provided by Non-huMan and the various other accounts of discrimination.

Look up High Human Culture in any source it exists in. Wookieepedia it if you must. Actually learn what the meanings behin the terms you use before spewing them out in a never-ending cycle of self-repetive dodging and strawmaning.

Yes, Non-huMan is a term used by the Human High Culture movement, as it is actually known by the way, but the NhM Track is a policy for keeping track of those people who fall under its definition.

Further, I am simply dumbstruck by how you can actually think to justify dismissing a source saying the Empire granted its citizens equal rights because the author was a Rebel. Wouldn't that Rebel be just a wee bit biased AGAINST the Empire?

I didn't, I said the notion was retarded. I was making an attack on your absurd idea that because Daala wasn't a properly trained officer, her account of discrimination should be thrown out entirely.

Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan, not the Empire. Tarkin, acting directly in contradiction to Vader (who in the ANH novelization insisted Tarkin recieve authorization from the Emperor but was outright dismissed).

Tarkin was put in place by the Empire, therefore the Empire is accountable for his actions. The Tarkin doctrine states that a few demonstrations would be required- it was intended to be used since it's construction.

That would be a sensible thing to do if I actually owned them.

So you thought it's be fun to have a go at me for supposedly not providing evidence earlier, when you are in fact entirely incapable of providing any yourself, huh? Nice tactic, that.

Well of course there is. Any twit can see that. It's an inevitable and unpreventable occurence. Whether that discrimination was practiced on a military-wide basis as strict procedure and policy is another matter entirely. And doing so would have been in direct contradiction of the Empire's constitution and the precdents of the Empire.

Thank you for at least acknowledging part of my argument is right. Let's work on the rest now shall we...
You say the Empire's constitution, which you haven't provided, guarantees equal rights to women in all areas, including the military. And yet, it also guarantees these rights to aliens, however the GE decided it needed slaves, so 're-classified' some species to get around this. OF course it was capable of this, it's a totalitarian regime. And you suppose that it would be utterly incapable of pulling a similar move in the armed forces? No chance of that happening at all, huh? The Empire being such a place of freedom and equality?

No number of tantrums thrown over a cultural supremacy movement's label can change that.

And no number of attempts to sidestep the fact that I have the evidence and you don't will change the fact that you can't prove that there was no discrimination in the Imperial armed forces, and that all the sources that say there was are invalid.

The shortage wouldn't be that desperate by the X-Wing series. Iilior simply could have been given TIE squadrons from a regional force.

Conceded, I wasn't really arguing that point anyway.

They're invalid because Daala was an incompetent Academy drop-out and Tavira was a civilian who decided to simply replace her husband rather than have Imperial Center send a replacement Moff to the system. Come on, use common sense here.

Fancy providing me with some examples of women in high command positions who have sources which prove their careers were in line with what would be expected of an Imperial officer, and that they experienced no discrimination?

[Lazarus]

My assertion is, either Imperial discrimination must be dismissed, because it's derived from faulty conclusions.. or we accept it asRepublic discrimination because that's the only thing the movies can support if you interpret it that way.
Either way, Non-huMan is a crock of shit.

Your assertion is, however, completely flawed under the rules of canon, as Steel has already stated. Yes, as you say, going only from the films there is an equal lack of women in the Rebellions forces. However, there is no reference to discrimination in the EU, as there is with the Empire, and which forms my argument. As TC Pilot has so vociferously been arguing, the film evidence alone is not enough if it is not backed up by EU evidence stating that discrimination is the reason for the lack of women.

This evidence IS present for the Empire, and as Steel has said, it is not contradicted by the films. As a result, it stands, and is true.

This evidence is NOT presented for the Rebellion, and consequently there is no policy of discrimination. As a result, your argument does not stand, and is false.

You may not like Non-huMan, fair enough; I think the entire Dark Empire series is a crock of shit - that makes no difference, it's still canon.

Yes, you immediately assume that these "illicit means" have more merit than their ability as military personnel, even when stated otherwise.

It is? Some evidence please, I've asked for an example already, please provide one. Naturally, Daala and Tavira can't count, unless you're seriously going to suggest they gained their ranks through merit...

As for Isard, I was asked for evidence before to suggest she had a sexual link with Palpatine. I offer this from Isard's Revenge:

'I have loved, yes, but I trusted that he would know if I lived or died.'
'That's asking a lot. No one can possibly know...' He (Corran) stopped in mid sentence as he recalled a rumour about her. 'The Emperor? You loved the Emperor?'
'Captain Horn, the surprise in your voice is hardly appropriate. Is it any surprise that I would find myself attracted to the brightest star in the galaxy? I was raised on Imperial Centre, I came of age during Palpatine's time. He was immensely charismatic. He could look you in the eyes and touch the person you were. He lived for his dream of a stable galaxy.'

Clearly, her position was not attained largely through merit. At any rate, I maintain that she is a poor example, as I have already said.

EDIT: I think my point about HHC may have been unclear at the beginning of my last post. I am aware that the HHC movement uses the TERM Non-huMan, what I am referring to is the POLICY of 'NhM Track'.

[VT-16]

There were none in RotJ.

The only female pilot I know of, can only be seen right behind Lando as Han meets with him before the meeting. You only really see the back of her head.

[Crazedwraith]

Although I have to agree with most of Lazarus' points. That although there is no film evidence for discrimination, it is explicately stated in the EU is thus canon.

I should point out that in the novella "Interlude at Darknell" written by Timothy Zahn and Micheal Stackpole, it is at the end revealled that Ysanna became head of Intelligence after betraying her father and setting him up to appear to be a rebel after she failed to retreive the Death Star plans and not due to any relationship with the Emperor. (although she does go directly to him to file her 'real' report)

[FTeik]

Problem is, there is also a lot of EU aside from Daala and Tavira, which suggests otherwise. This was already mentioned in this thread.

[Lazarus]

Problem is, there is also a lot of EU aside from Daala and Tavira, which suggests otherwise. This was already mentioned in this thread.

I have already asked for examples to be provided several times, or for some evidence showing that there is no discrimination in the Imperial military, and that Non-huMan does not apply somehow. No one has been able to do this. As such, the evidence proves that there is discrimination.

If you're referring to examples such as female inquisitors and so forth, they aren't military, and so have nothing to do with this. Could you be a little more specific?

[K. A. Pital]

In this very thread there have been mentioned Imperial Captains, Imperial Moffs, Imperial Admirals (yeah, Daala is a sham character but she exists and she was even put in charge of a very important installation).

The Original Nex also provided a very good argument why women must have been common in the low military ranks, too - Mara Jade would not be able to masquerade as a female pilot if they were very uncommon.

Darth Raptor then recalled (and so do I, having passed the Force Commander game in entirety) that there were female pilots and armored transport drivers in the Empire.

[The Original Nex]

I have already asked for examples to be provided several times, or for some evidence showing that there is no discrimination in the Imperial military, and that Non-huMan does not apply somehow. No one has been able to do this. As such, the evidence proves that there is discrimination.

And when evidence was provided you dismiss it all as "special circumstances." Your evidence proves nothing. At best it suggests that there is sexual discrimination within the Galactic Empire in certain instances.

If you're referring to examples such as female inquisitors and so forth, they aren't military, and so have nothing to do with this. Could you be a little more specific?

First off, as the Inquisitorius is a branch of Imperial Intelligence is IS part of the military, albeit one that more or less secret. Second, how do State Offices such as the Congress, Governorships and Moffhood not apply? It is known that the Empire reorganized the Senate and made sure that more or less favorable delegates were appointed to the Senate, governors are appointed by the Emperor's Advisors (i.e. Privy Council), while Moff's are either appointed by the Emperor himself, or his Ruling Council. If the claim is that Empire is institutionally sexist, how is it that you say only the Imperial Military applies to this discussion?

[Shroom Man 777]

But they don't have penises! The Empire can only be defended by an army of three million mandalorian penises!

Why should the Empire be misogynistic? Why should it even be xenophobic? The Emperor had women and alien and alien-women buddies, and making the Empire misogynistic and xenophobic is just lame. It's like the Empire's all evil, next thing you know, Moffs are molesting children, children are forced to work in sweat-shops, and only boys can go to school.

[Cao Cao]

But they don't have penises! The Empire can only be defended by an army of three million mandalorian penises!

Why should the Empire be misogynistic? Why should it even be xenophobic? The Emperor had women and alien and alien-women buddies, and making the Empire misogynistic and xenophobic is just lame. It's like the Empire's all evil, next thing you know, Moffs are molesting children, children are forced to work in sweat-shops, and only boys can go to school.

Because antagonists must all be lying, cheating, women-hating, racist, stupid, self-destructive, bad bad bad in every way, baby eating and kitten kicking Nazis!
According to the Brainless Hack Writer's Guide to Success, anyway.

[TC Pilot]

Most of the individual cases of xenophobia and misogyny stem from the prejudices of the Core Worlds. The Core World nobility and plutocrats seem to have become convinced or encouraged a belief of human supremacy. Things like the Clone Wars and the invasion of Naboo only exacerbated a movement that stretches as far back as that crazy old man heckling passer-byers in Taris' upper city in KOTOR.

Lazarus: You probably didn't notice because I edited it when I assume you were writing your response, but I'll try and get the quotes from the Imperial Sourcebook on the constitution either at the end of this week or early next week.

[Cao Cao]

Most of the individual cases of xenophobia and misogyny stem from the prejudices of the Core Worlds. The Core World nobility and plutocrats seem to have become convinced or encouraged a belief of human supremacy. Things like the Clone Wars and the invasion of Naboo only exacerbated a movement that stretches as far back as that crazy old man heckling passer-byers in Taris' upper city in KOTOR.

That's more or less the impression I had, and explains why both the Empire and Rebellion have a similar lack of female and alien personnel in the movies.
I'd suspect that both were also trying to do away with old prejudices, the Empire because of the new order and the Rebellion because it had to.

[Connor MacLeod]

The problem (as I see it) is that the evidence is unreliable one way and inconsistent in the other. Yes, we do have claims of "specisim/sexism" in the Empire, but instances tend to be either biased examples (IE the pro-alien terrorist group or the Rebels in the X-wing novels) or stated by people whose knowledge of the Empire at large is debatable (Daala - she was stuck at Maw installtion for god knows how manyy years, how the hell did she know how the Empire at large is structured.)

On the other hand, fo course, we're lacking alot of "high-end" examples to counter with. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence (we know of female Imperial officers in the lower ranks and we know the civilian sector has alot of powerful women, as does the Senate.) But that's not quite enough.

The real problem, of course, is that alot of this is also EU derived, and alot of that stemmed from a view of Palpatine and the Empire before the Prequels. The Prequels show us that Palpy is not inherently xenophobic, or sexist (how can he be? He is equally condescending and disdainful of everyone - they're ALL potential tools.)

Its probably safer to conclude that there was SOME level of bias (Xenophobia, misogny, or even racism) in some segments of the Empire (or at varying levels.) Given the sorts of individuals we DO know about this is almost a foregone conclusion. However, it doesn't apply in ALL cases, obviously (Since we do have cases like Bin Essada and Thrawn.) and we know Racism wasn't constant either. A good example of this would be Dooku from the ROTS novelization - dooku was envisioning an "Empire of Man" or something along those lines and Palpy let him believe that - up until Anakin killed him, at least.

In the cases of some military arms like the stormtroopers, the segretagion is obvious - the Stormtroopers are mostly clones, and most of the non-recruits are probably of the similar stock/base to help disguise that fact.

Another reason for the apparent segregation (at least in terms of aliens vs humans) is that its easier to build a ship dedicated to a single species/race than it is to multiple ones. The Mon Cal's ship's are a good example of this as well. Such considerations (hygene, consumables, etc.) can also apply to other branches too. building your army along segregated lines can greatly simplify things.

Another possiblity may relate to the fact that many branches of the military are dominated by the "old military families" (outlined in one of the WOTC books and probably also on Domuspublica.)

The last (and probably most telling, getting back to the Dooku example) - is that it ultimately suits Palpatine's purposes to have a certain measure of xenophobia/racism/sexism rampant in the Empire. For one thing, it promotes the whole "fear/anger/aggression" thing he loves so much.

But also (and more importantly) it also gives him a bunch of patsies through which he can work his machinations through, much like Dooku. Palpatine is a consummate manipulator and policitian. He's been getting things done under people's noses and without their knowing his involvement for decades. Having people who are bigots and whatnot probably serve his purposes quite well - he can still pretend to be a "harmless, lovable but out of touch old Emperor" as described in ANH, while others (more visible) figures take the rap for what happens.

On the other hand, though, this is also prime evidence that the Empire (as a whole) is probably NOT racist/xenophobic/sexist. As mentioned, ,Palpatine is a consummate manipulator. He also constructed the Empire in such a way that no two elements could consistently get along or coordinate (or thus betray him) - at least not without his intervention. Given that, it makes sense for Palpatine to have included the opposite of "racist/sexist/xenophobic" elements in the Empire (which we know examples of) to serve as a counter and a distraction to the other side. I mean, how many sexists or xenophobes would collaborate with an alien/female officer or governer, for example?

[Lazarus]

I'd like to make it clear at this point that I'm not arguing this case because I think there SHOULD be sexism in the Imperial Military; I agree that it's just part of the whole 'lolz Empire is teh evil' thing. I'm arguing it because I believe the evidence clearly points to there being sexism, and we have to show consistency in these things. If we start deciding things like this on whether we personally think it's a retarded idea or not, regardless of the evidence, then how can we point the finger at Trektards etc for saying the DS2 can't possibly be 900km diameter simply because 'that's stupid'? So let's leave the fact that the notion is a bit daft out of this, and stick to the evidence.

In this very thread there have been mentioned Imperial Captains, Imperial Moffs, Imperial Admirals (yeah, Daala is a sham character but she exists and she was even put in charge of a very important installation).

Indeed. The Captains, of which I believe two examples were given (Plikk and Iillor), could have risen (and in Illor's case she did) to their position despite the discrimination. It is explicitly stated that Iillor had to fight the discrimination in the military to gain her command, and indeed she never would have been given it if it weren't for the loss of male officers due to warlordism, Endor etc. As for Plikk, she commands a small flotilla in a remote backwater...

Of the Moffs, I think two examples were also given. Tavira obviously doesn't count, and the other one was a Moff of the Remnant, which no longer practises discriminatory policies.

Of the Admirals, two examples were given. One is Daala, and doesn't count. The other is Oxtroe, of which no information is available beyond the fact she tried to sue for peace before the Emperor's return before being assasinated. Without any information on her career, there is no reason to believe she rose to her position without experiencing discrimination (in other words, this example doesn't conflict with the Non-huMan and other evidence, they can be easily reconciled).

The Original Nex also provided a very good argument why women must have been common in the low military ranks, too - Mara Jade would not be able to masquerade as a female pilot if they were very uncommon.

I have actually already dealt with this, although perhaps it was in the other thread...
As I said earlier, if you'd care to look, the presence of a VERY small number of female pilots either on board the Chimaera or in the fleet (we're talking a handful here), would mean Mara's disguise would be fine.

Darth Raptor then recalled (and so do I, having passed the Force Commander game in entirety) that there were female pilots and armored transport drivers in the Empire.

Yes. You're point being? There can be hundreds of millions of serving female personnel, my argument does not suggest there can't be. What I'm saying is that there won't be an equal number of female personnel to male, due to discrimination, and that these people will, on average, be of much lower rank than their male counterparts.

And when evidence was provided you dismiss it all as "special circumstances." Your evidence proves nothing. At best it suggests that there is sexual discrimination within the Galactic Empire in certain instances.

Oh yes, the valid evidence of... what exactly? I dealt with each example as it was given, and not a single one in any way conflicts with my argument. Even Oxtroe doesn't because there is no information on her career, post etc. You're suggesting an Imperial officer with force sensitivity doesn't qualify as special circumstances?

Yes, my evidence does show that there is discrimination in the Empire in certain instances; that instance is called the military. I'm not arguing there is a policy of discrimination in the Empire as a whole, although I do suggest it has a cultural presence in large areas of it. I'm saying that THE MILITARY has a policy of discrimination - it's called the NhM Track, and until someone counters that evidence, it stands.

First off, as the Inquisitorius is a branch of Imperial Intelligence is IS part of the military, albeit one that more or less secret.

So a woman could just say 'Ooh, I fancy joining the Inquisitorious, I wonder where the nearest recruiting office is?'. No, because it's a black organisation, one that operates outside the normal command hierarchy. As such, they will use who is useful to them, regardless of race or sex.

Second, how do State Offices such as the Congress, Governorships and Moffhood not apply?

Because they are NOT MILITARY. Please read the earlier parts of this discussion, it has already been established that I am only suggesting there is INSTITUTIONAL discrimination in the military, which does NOT apply to the senate etc. As the Mofferance, their relationship with the military is somewhat cloudy (they aren't all standard officers chosen for government), and at any rate both Tavira and the Remnant Moff don't apply.

If the claim is that Empire is institutionally sexist, how is it that you say only the Imperial Military applies to this discussion?

The claim is not that the Empire is institutionally sexist - please read the thread more carefully.

Lazarus: You probably didn't notice because I edited it when I assume you were writing your response, but I'll try and get the quotes from the Imperial Sourcebook on the constitution either at the end of this week or early next week.

That might clear that issue up a bit, but we'll see if it actually conflicts with Non-huMan at all - I've already suggested why it probably won't.

I agree with most of Connor's points, he seems to have hit the nail on the head here. The idea that there is institutional misogyny in the Empire as a whole is daft and not supported; I'm not suggesting it is. However, there are a variety of sources about misogyny in the military, and some about the Empire as a whole, not to mention the very specific source of Non-huMan. No one has yet been able to counter my argument, which I'll state again here for those who seem to be confused:

There is a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military

[TC Pilot]

Here's a list of women in the Empire, from Wookieepedia, in case anyone's interested: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Imperial_women

[Steel]

Lets take an analogous situation:

Imagine a company which pays black workers less and promotes white employees over black employees.

Just because there are black workers in the company, does that mean the company is not racist? That would be an absurd thing to suggest.


This seems to be the same kind of logic employed here. We have written in black and white that there was a policy of discrimination against women and aliens. That does not mean that they are outright excluded from joining the military. If there are women in high places, that does not mean that they were not discriminated against on their way there. It does not mean that there were not countless other female soldiers/pilots/leaders who were more capable than their male counterparts who were passed over for promotion in favour of the guy based on policy.

You cant argue that there is no such policy based on "Its lame" and "the EU authors made it up" OF COURSE they made it up! Theyre writing fiction FFS! That means that they make up what is in the universe and (barring obvious conflict with the films) that is "STAR WARS"

[Cao Cao]

There is a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military

There is also a policy of discrimination against women in the Rebel Alliance military.I cite the movies as clear evidence. Counter this, please.

[Lazarus]

Thanks for the examples TC. I'll go through from the top based on what's available on them. An example will contradict the evidence if it shows or indicates the woman was not discriminated against in her standard rise through the CoC to at least post-rank. Cases with no info on career do not conflict with the established evidence because they can be reconciled.

Feylis Ardele: Pilot in the Imperial Navy, defected to the Alliance. No contradiction.

Commander Asween: XO of Pellaeon's flagship during the Vong war. No contradiction, and at any rate, a Remnant officer.

Daala: No contradiction, obviously.

Myrette Davani: TIE pilot. No contradiction.

Vana Dorja: Commander? Daughter of Captain Dorja, of the Relentless . Has both links on-high within the CoC, and is a Remnant officer. No contradiction.

Juno Eclipse: Pilot. No contradiction.

Inyon Fass: TIE pilot. Persona of Inyri Forge when infiltrating Ciutric Hegemony with Rogue Squadron. I looked this up, and the book explicitly states 'it is unusual to have a female pilot in a squadron'. At any rate, no conflict.

Lt Selnia Gergeroe: Impeirla Customs agent. No conflict.

Captain Iillor: Already cited, had to fight discrimination to gain her command etc, see earlier.

'Maggie': Marvel character, pilot. No conflict.

Lt Kasan Moor: TIE Pilot. Defected to the Alliance. No contradiction.

Admiral Oxtroe: Already cited, see earlier.

Captain Plikk: Already cited, see earlier.

Captain Tanda Pryl: Captain, 'her father's influence ensured that she was accepted into the Naval Academy', and her 'priveliged family' no doubt played some role in her elevation to post-rank. Possibly conflicts, however I'd maintain her family's influence had more than a little to do with her command.

Civé Rashon: TIE pilot. No contradiction.

Lt Sabol: Lieutenant stationed on Tatooine. No contradiction.

Countess Ryad: TIE pilot and aristocrat. No contradiction.

Sabran: Bounty Hunter, former officer of unknown rank, rebel sympathiser, imprisoned by Imperial authorities. No contradiction.

Atril Tabanne: TIE pilot, defected to the Alliance. No contradiction.

Janna Tammock: Officer in charge of security at the Imperial Embassy on Bothawui, described as a meaningless command. No contradiction.

Lakwii Varrscha: Captain of the Virulence, formerly XO. Promoted by Isard, at that point technically a warlord, only after Captain Drysso was transferred to command of the Lusankya. Moff Flirry Vorru stated she only gained her position of XO at all after latching onto Drysso. No contradiction, as far as I can see.

Gresia Vleen: Captain of the Tory's Catcher, an Interdictor. No account of how she attained her command, and as such nothing that directly conflicts.

Arien Yage: Captain, Widowmaker, a frigate in the Remnant Navy, so no conflict.

Gunn Yage: Pilot, Legacy-era Imperial Navy. No conflict.

Tessale Corvae: Major General, she 'would not have overcome the Imperial military's inherrent sexism as well as she did if she had not been a General's daughter.' No conflict.

Jes Gistang: Stormtrooper, Legacy-era. No conflict.

Roth: Captain, Imperial Army. Some crap from SW Galaxies, a Zabrak female
Anyway, no info on her career, so no way to know if she was a victim of discrimination; since she alien and a female I'd say it's pretty damn likely. No conflict.

Zeta Traal: Diplomatic corps officer of unknown rank. No contradiction.

Nyna Calixte: Moff, Legacy-era. No contradiction.

Chyler: ISB operative. No contradiction.

Izbela Saarrj: Lieutenant, ISB. No contradiction.

Elena Shelvay: ISB operative. No contradiction.

Adria Reyn: Moff, inner rim sector. No other info, nothing on how she gained her position. No conflict.

Facet Anamor: 'Executive Personnel Officer', no mention of what branch, or rank. No conflict.

The site itself defines Intelligence as seperate to the military. I'm not sure to put it in the same camp exactly, but I'm not going to argue the point. Nevertheless, you'd expect there to be many lower lever female Intelligence operatives for obvious reasons.

Ysanne Isard: Director, Imperial Intelligence. No military rank, no promotion through the CoC, placed in her position first by her father, then by the Emperor. I maintain there's no contradiction: her position is easily reconciled, and repeated references are made to how unusual it is that she's a woman in a high position.

Rasha Bex: Captain, Intelligence. No conflict (What is the conversion for an Intelligence captain to navy? Lieutenant Commander?)

Jessa Dajus: Intelligence Colonel, force sensitive, already cited. No conflict.

Erisi Dlarit: Intelligence operative, unknown rank, Squadron Leader in Thyferran Home Defense Corps. No conflict.

Grania: Intelligence operative, unknown rank. No conflict.

Kerri Lessev: Major, no info at all. No conflict.

Mala Mala: Very sketchy what she even is, never mind what her position was, or even if she was intellgence. Unknown elfin species. Unknown rank. Unknown service, seems to be an unofficial operative. No conflict.

Gara Petothel: Intelligence operative, unknown rank, field operative for Admiral Trigit under Warlord Zsinj. Defected. No contradiction.

Gratina and Jalindas Renliss: No info, possible connection to House Renliss of the Bounty Hunters guild. No conflict.

Iona Retter: Intelligence operative, unknown rank. Defected. No conflict.

Jan Strange: Persona of Jan Ors when infiltrating Imp Intel. No conflict.

Secesh Trant: Intelligence operative, unknown rank. No contradiction.

Lieutenant Zuud: Intelligence officer. No conflict.


I think anyone would be pretty hard pressed to come up with any more examples of female personnel from the military. This does NOT include the Inquisition, as I have said. If someone would like to make the case for why the Inquisition IS a military branch, go ahead, but it'll need more evidence than a 'because it is' or equivalent.

So, out of all of those, which probably make up the vast majority of women in Intelligence, the Navy or the Army shown in the EU, we have a grand total of ONE officer, Captain Tanda Pryl, who it is suggested rose through the ranks due to her ability as might be expected. Even this source can be reconciled, as her family were influential.

EVERY SINGLE OTHER WOMAN is either:

1. Of a junior rank
2. Of at least post-rank or equivalent, but gained it due to unconventional means such as links with the higher CoC, influential family, or even force sensitivity.
3. No information on their career at all.

[Steel]

There is a policy of discrimination against women in the Imperial military

There is also a policy of discrimination against women in the Rebel Alliance military.I cite the movies as clear evidence. Counter this, please.

We see less than 100 rebel personnel in the entire trilogy out of an organisation composed of at least hundreds of thousands of people. Thus the portion we see is not statistically significant enough to draw any conclusion.

Same can apply to the empire, the movies do not give enough information to conclusively say one way or the other. However, it is stated that there IS a policy and the films do not contradict this. Therefore there is such a policy.

[Cao Cao]

Same can apply to the empire, the movies do not give enough information to conclusively say one way or the other. However, it is stated that there IS a policy and the films do not contradict this. Therefore there is such a policy.

The films don't contradict 3 million clones either. But common sense does, hence why they are rejected. Same applies here.

[Lazarus]

There is also a policy of discrimination against women in the Rebel Alliance military.I cite the movies as clear evidence. Counter this, please.

Please provide the quote from the films stating the existence of this policy. Oh wait. There isn't one.

As you're no doubt aware, one of the policies for this board established by Darth Wong is that, although you are entitled to personally be a 'movie purist', you cannot apply this standard to a debate which is not 'movies only'. As such, you're conclusion is invalid. Even if this were a movies only debate, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove any discrimination, although neither would I. This is because the movies only INDICATE discrimination; there is absolutely nothing there to PROVE it. If I were relying on film evidence alone, my position would be untenable, as I would have no proof.

However, some years ago, an ingenious little idea known as 'The EU' was started. This creation is lower in canon than the films, however anything not contradicted must stand as canon. The policy of discrimination in the Imperial military is explicitly laid down in various sources, and as this is not contradicted by the films, it stands. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever on Rebel discrimination, and as such, the notion fails.

[Lazarus]

The films don't contradict 3 million clones either. But common sense does, hence why they are rejected. Same applies here.

Bullshit. Oh, so the 3 million clones number is rejected purely because we decided we didn't like it?

No, there has been great effort put into proving why it can't stand, using evidence from several higher sources such as the ICS, and the films themselves. 3 million soldiers cannot fight a war on the scale of the Clone Wars; it's just not possible. The Imperial military can maintain a policy of misogyny, because, funnily enough, that IS possible. Not only that, this concept is verified throughout many sources in the entire EU. The 3 million number, on the other hand, is not.

The 3 million number is not possible given the vast amounts of contradictory information. It does not stand.
The discriminatory policy IS possible based on the considerable amount of supporting evidence, and the lack of contradictory evidence. It stands.