How long did the Atreides hold Arrakis?

[Setzer]

Dune is a bit vague on how long the Atreides ran Arrakis before the Harkonnen/Sardauar attack.

I remember reading in The Road to Dune that House Atreides numbered between ten and twenty five million people, including house troops and servants. And I know you can't get them all moved from one world to another in a week or two.

However, I don't know how the aforementioned story factors into canon. I don't think an enemy force of less then a hundred thousand could have exterminated a noble household the size of a medium sized country in one fell swoop, no matter how brutal the Sardaukar are.

Have there been any official statements by Frank Herbert about it? Or something in the books I missed?

[Enforcer Talen]

Under a year, iirc. They were just settling in when Yueh did his op.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'd say under half a year. Just enough time for them to land and begin to put everything in place before landing on them like a ton of bricks.

[Uraniun235]

However, I don't know how the aforementioned story factors into canon. I don't think an enemy force of less then a hundred thousand could have exterminated a noble household the size of a medium sized country in one fell swoop, no matter how brutal the Sardaukar are.

Not all of the Atreides personnel would have been combat troops. If House Atreides was like a modern nation in terms of soldier/civilian population ratios, there could easily be few enough Atreides troops for the Sardaukar assault force to destroy them. (If I remember right, the Sardaukar were individually rated at being roughly as effective as around five Landsraad troops at the time of the attack, down from their all-time high of about ten.)

[Sea Skimmer]

I can't see why the whole Atreides population would ever be moved onto the planet to begin with. It’s a desert wasteland that's very expensive to live on, demonstrated by the ritual of giving water to the poor. Most people would stay back at home. Its said in the book that only about 1000 harvesters are in service, so its not like they’d need 20 million people to run them all or anything.

[Lord Pounder]

I doubt Duke Leto would have moved the entire House over. As mentioned above Arrakis is a hell hole to live in, water is higly valuable and the cities where still full of Harkonen harassment troops. My guess is that only essential people where moved.

This is evidenced by the House using natives as servents in the palace, and Leto asking Gurney to convince as many Spice Harvesters crews to stay on as possible. Also early into the residence Leto asks his propaganda officer to assure soldiers with familys that the place was safe, an indication that many troops had chosen to leave their family behind on Caladan.

[andrewgpaul]

(If I remember right, the Sardaukar were individually rated at being roughly as effective as around five Landsraad troops at the time of the attack, down from their all-time high of about ten.)

Mind you, the whole point the Emperor colluded with the Harkonnen plot was that the Atreides House troops were almost on a par with Sardaukar.

[The Grim Squeaker]

(If I remember right, the Sardaukar were individually rated at being roughly as effective as around five Landsraad troops at the time of the attack, down from their all-time high of about ten.)

Mind you, the whole point the Emperor colluded with the Harkonnen plot was that the Atreides House troops were almost on a par with Sardaukar.

No, that the Duke's political influence and personal accumen was dangerous and that in the future his troops might have become a real opponent for the Sardukar (In fact I think that this was Lynch movie only, I'd need to check).
With the Fremen the Duke would have been able to overcome the Sardukar, but this was not known until after the Sardukar witnessed first hand just how dangerous the Fremen were (and even then, it was only "rammed in" with the "Old men, women and children sent the Sardukar running" part).

[andrewgpaul]

No, the Lynch movie had those stupid 'wierding module' sonic weapons.

And isn't "his troops might have become a real opponent for the Sardukar" pretty much what I just said?

I'm sure I read something to that effect in Dune, but it's not in the appendices, and I'm buggered if I'm going to read the whole novel again right now.

[Setzer]

A few of the Atreides troops were nearly a good as the Sardaukar, and presumably they would have been able to recruit many more from Caladan, and train them to that standard.

Hence they were forced to move to Arrakis.

[DocHorror]

IIRC Gunery & Duncan had trained a small portion of the Dukes Troops to be as good as Sardukar. Plus the Duke was popular in the Laandsrad.

[Chris OFarrell]

After re-reading the relevant sections, its clear that the Emperor didn't like having to move against the Duke in the slightest, hating the political necessities of what he was doing, but the Duke was just getting too popular with the other houses.

The Duke knew that moving to Dune was a trap, but had an ace up his sleeve. His military were crack troops trained to within a hair as good as Sardukar, some were even better. And with men like Duncan, Gurney and Hawat AND the native pool of the Freeman to recruit from, train and equip, he would be in possession of the most valuable planet in the universe plus have an army equal to if not superior then all the Emperors legions, swinging the balance of power firmly in favor of the Landsarrad

Of course there were plots within plots here. The Harkonnens simply wanted to crush the Atredies and spent an absurd amount of cash, something like 60 years of full production of the most valuable substance in the universe to do so. At which point they would start a long term program to gain control of the planets population and then the Empire through their position. The Emperor saw the threat of Atredies allying with the Freeman and forming an entirely new power structure from the current feudal system with the Imperial house, Guild and Landsarrad balancing each other out .

The Duke and his people simply grossly underestimated how far the Baron and the Emperor would go. They fully expected the Sardukar and Harkonnens to attack 'before the first audit' which didn't get them much time. They (correctly) estimated it wouldn't be long, before the first Guild audit, and wanted 5 Battalions of Freeman with their own forces to meet them on the (incorrect) assumption that it wouldn't be more then a handful of Battalions given shipping rates. They would then crush them and parade some captured Sardukar before the Landsarrad - who feared most of all the Emperor picking them off one by one, quietly in the background.

[DocHorror]

After re-reading the relevant sections, its clear that the Emperor didn't like having to move against the Duke in the slightest, hating the political necessities of what he was doing, but the Duke was just getting too popular with the other houses.

The Duke knew that moving to Dune was a trap, but had an ace up his sleeve. His military were crack troops trained to within a hair as good as Sardukar, some were even better. And with men like Duncan, Gurney and Hawat AND the native pool of the Freeman to recruit from, train and equip, he would be in possession of the most valuable planet in the universe plus have an army equal to if not superior then all the Emperors legions, swinging the balance of power firmly in favor of the Landsarrad

Of course there were plots within plots here. The Harkonnens simply wanted to crush the Atredies and spent an absurd amount of cash, something like 60 years of full production of the most valuable substance in the universe to do so. At which point they would start a long term program to gain control of the planets population and then the Empire through their position. The Emperor saw the threat of Atredies allying with the Freeman and forming an entirely new power structure from the current feudal system with the Imperial house, Guild and Landsarrad balancing each other out .

The Duke and his people simply grossly underestimated how far the Baron and the Emperor would go. They fully expected the Sardukar and Harkonnens to attack 'before the first audit' which didn't get them much time. They (correctly) estimated it wouldn't be long, before the first Guild audit, and wanted 5 Battalions of Freeman with their own forces to meet them on the (incorrect) assumption that it wouldn't be more then a handful of Battalions given shipping rates. They would then crush them and parade some captured Sardukar before the Landsarrad - who feared most of all the Emperor picking them off one by one, quietly in the background.

It makes me wonder why the Emperor sent the Atredies to Arrakis instead of sending the Sardukar to Caladan.

[Imperial Overlord]

It makes me wonder why the Emperor sent the Atredies to Arrakis instead of sending the Sardukar to Caladan.

Easier to attack them on Arrakis. Caladan was their well established home world and the Atreides knew how to fight there. Arrakis, on the other hand, was an unfamiliar planet with completely different terrain. In addition, the Atreides would have to split their forces, with some remaining behind to defend Caladan and others coming with the Duke to Arrakis.

[Chris OFarrell]

It makes me wonder why the Emperor sent the Atredies to Arrakis instead of sending the Sardukar to Caladan.

Because it would have been a flagrant and very public act of war against the Great and Minor houses of the Imperium. The Sardukar are crack troops, but they are matched (if not exceded) by the combined forces of the Great Houses, rallied under the Landsarrad.

The thing those houses fear the most, at least according to the Duke and Baron, is Sardukar being unleashed upon them one by one, negating their overall numerical advantage. The Emperors involvement in the Harkonnen attack on the Atredies was COMPLETELY under the table, no-one knew of it.

Publicly it was just a formal feud between two Great Houses.

Privately, the Emperor and Baron each worked together to rid themselves of a problem.

IIRC Paul in the days after the Harkonnen invasion talked about the possibility of presenting the proof of Imperial involvement in the whole attack to the Landsarrad, which would lead in turn to open war between the Emperor and the Landsarrad.

Plus as IO said above, on Dune, especially during the transition, they were vulnerable.

They were tied down on a new planet they were unfamilar with and had a questionable population support - the Harkonnens had something like 300 cells operating on the planet - the classic tactics of the Houses using things like shields were utterly useless thanks to the Worms (which the Barron used as an opening to deploy Howitzers and blast the now completely exposed Atredies infantry in his invasion) and there was more then sufficient pretext then publicly for the Harkonnens to move against them.

[Gil Hamilton]

To buttress Chris' point above, remember that the Sarduakar went to Arrakis to attack the Atriedes in Harkonnen livery. They showed up later under their own banner to put down Maud'dib's rebellion.

[Stormbringer]

There's also some pretty significant political calculations which meant that luring Leto and his family to Arrakis made easier.

First of all, it helped curtail Leto's popularity some what. Simply having the spice concession made him powerful and alienated some of the competing houses. It also made the Duke look some what greedy and ambitious, which ran contrary to his public image.

Secondly, the very transfer of ownership provided a fig leaf of justification for the Harkonen attack. Normally such blood-letting would arouse a fair bit of alarm but this provided a reason they could accept. On top of the arranged "difficulties" House Atriedes encountered made for a justification of the Harkonen's actions.

[DocHorror]

snip

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that bit. Its been a couple of years since I've read Dune.

[brianeyci]

One thing I never got was the lasguns. Supposedly using them against shields causes something terrible, an explosion (I assume like using atomics.) But if the Harkonnens were so intent on eliminating the Atredis, why stick to treaty niceties. Hire some mercenaries with a deathwish and fire lasguns on a house shield. They didn't have to go to some elaborate plot to get the Atredis onto another world so they wouldn't have the advantage of their shields.

Unless I am missing something like religion prohibiting suicide, I don't see why lasguns couldn't be used as a last resort weapon. If the Saradakur are so crack and brutal, I don't see why they couldn't carry lasguns just to take out house shields suiciding themselves. Or even a first strike weapon, if they can find enough lunatics to do it (and why not.)

[Vendetta]

Lasgun/shield explosions are unpredictable. They might destroy only the shield and lasgun themselves, they might go up like atomics.

The reason most people don't use them like that is because anything that even looks like atomics is going to meet with the extreme displeasure of every single other house, and that would mean outright extermination.

During his guerilla war Paul did indeed use lasgun/shield pairs as traps, but he didn't care how much damage they caused, only that they disrupted spice production.

Also, Baron Harkonnen wanted to be looking the Duke in the eyes when he died. It was personal, remember.

[Lord Woodlouse]

I'm fairly certain even Paul did not use atomics against living targets.

[Jade Falcon]

This was one part of the Lynch film that bugged me, well one of many, when the Atreides troops were attacked, the film made them look like total incompetents. Most of them seemed to be concetrating on carrying flags around rather than weapons. I'm not saying Lynch should have changed the outcome, but the Atreides basically looked as if they were utterly useless.

[Lord Woodlouse]

I get what Lynch was trying to do, I imagine there was a lot of ceremonial elements to the types of warfare that existed in that Imperium. Harking back to Napoleonic conflict where the colours were absolutely sacred. The moment they fell the nearest person was expected to grab them and raise them again.

[Jade Falcon]

I get what Lynch was trying to do, I imagine there was a lot of ceremonial elements to the types of warfare that existed in that Imperium. Harking back to Napoleonic conflict where the colours were absolutely sacred. The moment they fell the nearest person was expected to grab them and raise them again.

Aye, but one particular scene has a load of soldiers running out, each of them carrying flags and I'm sure there were practically no weapons. You can't defend the colours if you've nothing to defend it with. I'm not talking about one flag here.

[Stormbringer]

One thing I never got was the lasguns. Supposedly using them against shields causes something terrible, an explosion (I assume like using atomics.) But if the Harkonnens were so intent on eliminating the Atredis, why stick to treaty niceties. Hire some mercenaries with a deathwish and fire lasguns on a house shield. They didn't have to go to some elaborate plot to get the Atredis onto another world so they wouldn't have the advantage of their shields.

Unless I am missing something like religion prohibiting suicide, I don't see why lasguns couldn't be used as a last resort weapon. If the Saradakur are so crack and brutal, I don't see why they couldn't carry lasguns just to take out house shields suiciding themselves. Or even a first strike weapon, if they can find enough lunatics to do it (and why not.)

1) The Baron is no fool, not by a long shot. If he did that he'd be nearly instantly reviled and outcast, if not set upon by the other Houses and the Emperor. Atomics are prohibited by the Great Convention, at least their use, and no one is really going to question punishing the Baron for using something with merely nuclear like affects.

2) As others said, he didn't want to just kill them. The Baron and his family wanted to utterly ruin them, blot them from the pages of history, and have them know in the most painful way that he was behind it. It was an ancient vendetta, simply sending some mooks to fry the current rulers is hardly satisfactory compared to entirely dismantling their House.