A Question for Moderate Christians

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2007-05-29 11:41pm

I don't mean to offend nor do i want this to become a flame war. I am curious about this...

Most of the people here (Christian or Not) here have a decent understanding of history and of that of the Christian Religion. Among the facts here of significance is as such...

1-The mythology of the Old Testament has been refuted by modern science, even though this is not critical, it is a fact.
2-The mythological (which I will use in the sense of the extremely supernatural stuff about it) life of Jesus Christ (that I believe existed at some point although not divine or blessed, just as the starter of the whole Religion) has many parallels with many local religions (Osiris and Mithras being two classic examples of this). Much of it was also manufactured well after biblical events (such as the Virgin Birth).
3-The New Testament was not made by Christ and was compiled out of many edited versions and had various gospels written by various apostles thrown out based only on Rhetorical debate at the Council of Nicea. Despite its myriad errors, the DaVinci Code does get the fact that the 'modern' bible was altered significantly from its original form.
4-The success of Christianity is in no way divine, it inured despite the Romans not liking it because they did not do rituals that they fear would make their gods angry and attempting to stamp it out (admittedly sometimes halfheartedly) because of two things...

A-It stressed the Importance of Faith (as opposed to Roman Faith in which they did not care if you believed in Jupiter so long as you did the rituals) and believing and worshiping their God and not worshiping other gods. Doing so, even in name only would get you a one way ticket to hell.
B-That it taught its members to bring in more people into the fold, break them away from their false gods and save there souls from damnation, thus spreading it.

This allowed the early Christians to spread throughout the Roman Empire until they were powerful enough to gain favor of the Roman Emperor. After that, they used there power to obliterate the other faiths of the Empire and afterwards, was spread by Christian Warlords seeking to impress God with their piety by spreading the faith.
5-Moderate Christians understand the idea of a secular origin of life and a secular origin of Religion (it started as a way that stone aged humans used to discribe how the world worked and were did it come from before science arose, rituals were conceived of to apease their anthropomorphic creators, Specialised preists began to emerge when civilization was created who capitalised on Religion as a source of Power and Profit and with the dawn of laungage, people began to write down stuff to better preserve their mythology).

As Richard Dawkins would put it, modern Christians very much cherry pick the bible for what they believe as to live according to the bible, even if you throw out the Old Testament, your going against allot of Modern Ideals (Paul's opinion on woman is a prime example). The question here is this, why don't moderate Christians just give up on Christianity as a whole and just go to Deism, Agnosticism or Atheism?

Zor

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2007-05-29 11:49pm

I think some of it is that its easier (and for others political suicide not to) identify themselves as christian while their actual beliefs are essentially deistic. I personally lean into the real of being all but a deist though I think for its notable faults the gospels themselves if not divine are worthy of study. Essentially those who "pick and choose" are simply identifying themsleves by the sole denominator of including Jesus within their faith. I would call it perhaps Deists for Jesus maybe but that's a crapload more difficult to explain to someone else than saying you are Christian but very liberal/moderate. Again that may just be me but I think at least some of it is ease of identification.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-05-30 02:10am

The question here is this, why don't moderate Christians just give up on Christianity as a whole and just go to Deism, Agnosticism or Atheism?

Your entire post before this question was wholly unnecessary, as it establishes many facts and points which are not at all agreed upon by Christians. As for me, I'm a Christian because I believe in Christ. Not A god or SOME god, but Jesus Christ, the son of God, as well as his Father and the Holy spirit.

Why don't I give up? Because I believe.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-05-30 02:25am

IIRC in 'Jesus' time, Messianistic cults abounded and the name Jesus was rather common, so it's a bit like saying Bob has a Truck, odds are a lot of people are named Bob and own trucks.

Jericho Kross · Post by **Jericho Kross** » 2007-05-30 10:27am

To answer the main question, most christians believe that they will be rewarded for their faith, which is the preyed on by fundies and other religious nuts

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-05-30 10:37am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Your entire post before this question was wholly unnecessary, as it establishes many facts and points which are not at all agreed upon by Christians.

Such as?

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-05-30 10:55am

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Your entire post before this question was wholly unnecessary, as it establishes many facts and points which are not at all agreed upon by Christians.
Such as?

I'm going to go off on a limb here and give it a try of what he may mean.

1. Many, even moderate, Christians don't even know of much of the scientific information and knowledge that refutes the Bible.
2. Some of them can't actually agree even on Jesus' life, Mormons would be one of these, they believe Jesus had three wives and multiple children (IIRC).
3. They could argue that this is incorrect and the decision of what books to include was divinely inspired.
4. This one I can't really even concieve of an argument for Christians to come up with.
5. Are you sure that's the correct definition? I've never seen it defined absolutely and it tends to be subjective upon what your view of what moderate would be for Christians.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-05-30 01:07pm

Indeed, if I may utilize the 'Sunday School Answers' I have seen in my experience:

1. Even MODERATE Christians believe the world is 10 thousand years old, or that the Paluxy River prints are genuine.
2. Similarities to other religions are immaterial to the truth of Christianity.
3. The men who created the Bible were led by God to do so, and therefore everything that's in there was meant to be as well as everything that wasn't.
4. Are you sure it wasn't God's blessings on the church that led to its acceptance? Constantine prayed to the Christian God and won a battle, surely it was God's work.

That's just SOME of the reasons why Moderate Christians would discount Zor's basic assertions in the OP.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-30 01:14pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Indeed, if I may utilize the 'Sunday School Answers' I have seen in my experience:

1. Even MODERATE Christians believe the world is 10 thousand years old, or that the Paluxy River prints are genuine.

I don't see how this leads to someone being a moderate Christian. Isn't 6-10,000 the rough estimate given by most creationist dipshits?

2. Similarities to other religions are immaterial to the truth of Christianity.

Neverminding that many Christian holidays and events were taken straight from other religions. . .

3. The men who created the Bible were led by God to do so, and therefore everything that's in there was meant to be as well as everything that wasn't.

Neverminding the numerous contradictions within it . . .wouldn't a moderate Christian be willing to admit that there may be some mistakes within the Bible?

4. Are you sure it wasn't God's blessings on the church that led to its acceptance? Constantine prayed to the Christian God and won a battle, surely it was God's work.

Wee, circular nonsense. How is this indicative of a "moderate" Christian? Lots of fundie dipshits use circular reasoning to justify their positions.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-05-30 01:15pm

So your definition of "moderate" is "the same delusional thinking, minus the hatemongering?"

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-05-30 01:20pm

I'm not saying these are things I necessarily believe, these are things that the majority of the christian right believes.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-30 01:22pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm not saying these are things I necessarily believe, these are things that the majority of the christian right believes.

Then what the fuck do any of those definitions have to do with what "moderate" Christians believe?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-05-30 01:23pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm not saying these are things I necessarily believe, these are things that the majority of the christian right believes.

Ah, so your definition of "Christian moderate" is "Christian Right"?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2007-05-30 01:41pm

General Zod wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:2. Similarities to other religions are immaterial to the truth of Christianity.
Neverminding that many Christian holidays and events were taken straight from other religions. . .

This may seem like a minor detail, but the Christians didn't really take their holidays from other religions; they really just adopted the same dates.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-30 01:55pm

Ted C wrote:
General Zod wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:2. Similarities to other religions are immaterial to the truth of Christianity.
Neverminding that many Christian holidays and events were taken straight from other religions. . .
This may seem like a minor detail, but the Christians didn't really take their holidays from other religions; they really just adopted the same dates.

So Christmas wasn't a complete ripoff of Saturnalia then? Despite falling within the same timeframe and having very similar customs?

I know it's Wiki, I don't feel like hunting down a more detailed source atm.

Besides the public rites there were a series of holidays and customs celebrated privately. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia) and a special market (sigillaria). Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves; however, although it was officially condoned only during this period, one should not assume that it was rare or much remarked upon during the rest of the year. It was a time to eat, drink, and be merry.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-05-30 02:45pm

Yeah, alot of Christmas and easter traditions were adopted from Pagan rites. Saturnalia with the gift-giving, and Easter with its' fertility symbols.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2007-05-30 02:45pm

Typically, he's correct that many of the Christian holidays are on the dates or near the dates of Pagan ones, but Christian doctrine during its rise also tended to adopt some of the practices of the pagan people's so as to make their transition easier. Yes.

It's both. They both ripped off and set their own holidays on dates. In other cases, they just did one or the other. In all, they absorbed non Christian ideas and made them Christian.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-05-30 02:59pm

Christmas and Saturnalia were extremely similar, and the fact that they just plopped it down on that date is further evidence for the co-opting of the date. The 'holiday' as we know it is pagan, and the only Christian thing about is going to Mass, if you're Catholic, and if you're not then it's basically just another day of Church with some pagan festivities mixed in. Christmas is really not supposed to be that huge of a deal anyway, as Easter is the primary day of celebration.

There's even some flimsy evidence to suggest that wasn't Christian either. Obviously the Easter Bunny and the Eggs are just pagan springtime festival bits, but the existance of other similar-sounding dieties and such in that month and the placement within the calendar don't make it unlikely that it was stamped there to grind out some of the springtime cultural events the same way the others were.

A lot of other festivals are kinda just band-aids over pagan festivals as well, like All Saint's Day and all those being over the Halloween season's fall festivals All Saint's Day used to be Hallowmass, which is pretty indicitive. It deals with a lot of the same subjects, and just adds a Christian veneer to it.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2007-05-30 03:01pm

So Christmas wasn't a complete ripoff of Saturnalia then? Despite falling within the same timeframe and having very similar customs?

I thought the early Christian tradition of Christmas consisted of going for a long, long mass. The gift-giving may have been a holdover from Saturnalia, but I doubt it's an especially religious tradition. The mass is the religious part of it.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-05-30 03:05pm

wolveraptor wrote:
So Christmas wasn't a complete ripoff of Saturnalia then? Despite falling within the same timeframe and having very similar customs?
I thought the early Christian tradition of Christmas consisted of going for a long, long mass. The gift-giving may have been a holdover from Saturnalia, but I doubt it's an especially religious tradition. The mass is the religious part of it.

So it's basically Saturnalia with long winded preaching, then?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2007-05-30 03:07pm

General Zod wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:
So Christmas wasn't a complete ripoff of Saturnalia then? Despite falling within the same timeframe and having very similar customs?
I thought the early Christian tradition of Christmas consisted of going for a long, long mass. The gift-giving may have been a holdover from Saturnalia, but I doubt it's an especially religious tradition. The mass is the religious part of it.
So it's basically Saturnalia with long winded preaching, then?

Worse - they cut out the orgies, too.

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2007-05-30 03:20pm

The only rationale I've ever heard from a moderate Christian that summizes their beleif is "I know it's irrational but I believe it anyways". You really can't carry any argument into territory further than that unless it's psychology.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-05-30 03:32pm

TithonusSyndrome wrote:The only rationale I've ever heard from a moderate Christian that summizes their beleif is "I know it's irrational but I believe it anyways". You really can't carry any argument into territory further than that unless it's psychology.

A lot of people say that there's so much good in what's said, but that's just cherrypicking. Other people think there's SOMETHING out there, but they're not sure what, and that's just delusional cherrypicking. I also chalk this up to a variety of magical thinking about the world. Confusing an amazing bit of nature for an act of some superior intelligence seems kinda dense, but this view is quite popular among the mid-range intelligences who know enough to be baffled by creation while thinking it's actually a Creation.

The "so much good" answer is what I hear the most though.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2007-05-30 10:36pm

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm not saying these are things I necessarily believe, these are things that the majority of the christian right believes.
Ah, so your definition of "Christian moderate" is "Christian Right"?

I think the better way of putting might be comparing the levels of belief and how much a given Christian tries to enforce them in others. Withinout any figures I would nonetheless would expect there are Christians out there who beleive in just the gospels and loving thy neighbor without any of the anti-woman bent of Paul or some of the other tricky things the New Testament gets you into trouble for if you claim absolute truth is in it yet at the same time these folks may hold that YEC is correct. Moderation in how a person practices and believes doens't neccessarily mean they are rational in which sections the will pick and choose from.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-05-30 11:46pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Indeed, if I may utilize the 'Sunday School Answers' I have seen in my experience:

1. Even MODERATE Christians believe the world is 10 thousand years old, or that the Paluxy River prints are genuine.

What? They never taught that sort of drivel in my Catholic school.

2. Similarities to other religions are immaterial to the truth of Christianity.

From my own religious instruction, Christian belief was of course number one. But it was taught to us that there were things to learn from the study of other religious beliefs.

Reasons 3 & 4 parallel some of the lessons I'd received in religion classes but those were never considered to have more significance than the Truth of the message, which was supposed to be self-evident.