Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[Cao Cao]

An example? You mean the ONLY thing your argument is based on? Which doesn't even qualify as definitive evidence because it states absolutely nothing about discrimination?

My point is it is as much definitive evidence as the EU authors who came up with the idea of discrimination have. Of course it's flimsy. But the EU has nothing better to stand on in that regard!

Oh, a better explanation? Right, so your explanation is 'better' than the EU, therefore you win? Of course, how could we not see that, we must bow to your incredible intellect and power to override anything you want because you're 'better' than the EU!

NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU THINK. THE EU OVERRIDES YOU. END OF.

And no, not 'just as' with the 3 million, as has been repeatedly stated to you, that is a false analogy, stop clinging to it.

Well here's a clue, jackass: THE EU ALSO OVERRIDES YOU.
That means the examples of women/aliens in the Empire stand EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

Not true, it 'shows' NOTHING. It could 'indicate' any number of things, but that is subjective to the person viewing it. You need PROOF for an argument, of which you have NONE - all your argument is built on is subjective reasoning, and pretty goddamn weak subjective reasoning which is overidden by multiple, independant sources within the EU.

Which are also overriden by multiple, independant sources within the EU that depict Imperial women and aliens.

[Lazarus]

I didn't respond because I didn't see it.
And now that I have, you're full of shit. The Rebellion isn't a proper organised military force? Kindly prove this ridiculous assertion. They may be mobile and have to hide their bases, but that says nothing about the state of their military.

By the way, you're a lying ass. You have repeatedly stated that intelligence operatives and even pilots don't conflict with "Non-huMan".

I was talking in relation to the Empire - what I mean is that the women in the contol room at Hoth didn't sign up to some seperate command, they 'joined the Rebellion' in the same way as the troops did, and were assigned to that role due to their skills.

Yes, I have stated pilots don't conflict. Why? Because a pilot isn't a fucking post-rank officer you retard, and neither is a low-level intelligence operative. I have repeatedly stated that there is NOTHING to say women can't join the forces, so there is NO REASON why there shouldn't be many low-ranking females - just very few in relation to the men. Not because they have different roles.

[Cao Cao]

Phew! At last, you concede the whole point of the thread, which was to show that there is discrimination against females in the imperial military.

I dont give a shit if everyone does it, or if nobody but the empire does it. The point of this thread was to decide if the Empire does it.

Then why are you arguing? My only point is that "Non-huMan" is a crock. And that the Empire may actually be going against the trend of discrimination.
There's a difference between prejudice ingrained in culture and institutionalised prejudice.

I was talking in relation to the Empire - what I mean is that the women in the contol room at Hoth didn't sign up to some seperate command, they 'joined the Rebellion' in the same way as the troops did, and were assigned to that role due to their skills.

And how do you know? There obviously are seperate base and fleet commands.

Yes, I have stated pilots don't conflict. Why? Because a pilot isn't a fucking post-rank officer you retard, and neither is a low-level intelligence operative. I have repeatedly stated that there is NOTHING to say women can't join the forces, so there is NO REASON why there shouldn't be many low-ranking females - just very few in relation to the men. Not because they have different roles.

Which hasn't got a thing to do with what I'm arguing against, the ridiculous "non-huMan" policy. But in any case, that means the female Rebels still don't count because they're not high-ranking officers. You've also enabled me to fully dismiss Nien Nub too. So my analogy stands.

[Lazarus]

My point is it is as much definitive evidence as the EU authors who came up with the idea of discrimination have. Of course it's flimsy. But the EU has nothing better to stand on in that regard!

Dear God...
The EU EXPLICITLY STATES that there is a policy of discrimination. The moives DO NOT contradict this. The EU stands. What does it have to stand on? The rules of fucking canon you asshat.

Well here's a clue, jackass: THE EU ALSO OVERRIDES YOU.
That means the examples of women/aliens in the Empire stand EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

Oh for fucks sake...
The examples, yeah? All those shitloads of examples of high-ranking females in the Imp military? All that ONE FUCKING VALID EXAMPLE? Read my example analysis post, it doesn't matter how many examples of TIE pilots or whatever are produced, they are ALL low ranking and in NO WAY contradict the assertion that there is discrimination. There are a mere handful of high-ranking female officers, of which all but one achieved their post through means such as 'connections', being the mistress of powerful men, force sensitivity etc etc.

Which are also overriden by multiple, independant sources within the EU that depict Imperial women and aliens.

Oh noes! There's some female TIE pilots! Therefore there is no discrimination! Give me a fucking break, learn to construct an argument.

[Lazarus]

Which hasn't got a thing to do with what I'm arguing against, the ridiculous "non-huMan" policy. But in any case, that means the female Rebels still don't count because they're not high-ranking officers. You've also enabled me to fully dismiss Nien Nub too. So my analogy stands.

You were arguing that there are NO women shown in the Rebellion in the films. There are. That point fails.

You're now elevating the various examples of women shown in the Empire in the EU to the same canon level as the film Rebel women. Nice double principle there, because a moment ago you were saying the EU isn't worth shit and can be overridden by personal preference based on subjective reasoning alone.

And it's a pity for you that proving a conclusion with an analogy is a logical fallacy then, isn't it? Other than your 'analogy', all you have is some film evidence showing there aren't many women in the Rebellion. Wow. Conclusive.

Or not, actually. Your argument is flawed and lacks any kind of proof beyond your own subjective reasoning, which you say MUST override EU sources because it's 'better'.

[Cao Cao]

Dear God...
The EU EXPLICITLY STATES that there is a policy of discrimination. The moives DO NOT contradict this. The EU stands. What does it have to stand on? The rules of fucking canon you asshat.

The EU explicitly states that there is a policy of discrimination, mostly from a Rebel perspective (i.e. biased) based on interpretation of what's seen in the movies, which could equally be applied to the Rebellion.

I'm not violating canon at all. I'm saying that EU conclusions based on faulty evidence cannot be held as 100% proof, especially when written in such an in-universe biased perspective.

Oh for fucks sake...
The examples, yeah? All those shitloads of examples of high-ranking females in the Imp military? All that ONE FUCKING VALID EXAMPLE? Read my example analysis post, it doesn't matter how many examples of TIE pilots or whatever are produced, they are ALL low ranking and in NO WAY contradict the assertion that there is discrimination. There are a mere handful of high-ranking female officers, of which all but one achieved their post through means such as 'connections', being the mistress of powerful men, force sensitivity etc etc.

Yes, because you choose to believe that in every single case, the officers got there SOLELY because of connections and affairs ignoring the fact that a) they also demonstrated abilities suitable to their post and b) male officers also tend to get positions through connections and brown-nosing. Therefore you're just using a giant red herring to ignore the fact that there are females/aliens in the Imperial military.

Oh noes! There's some female TIE pilots! Therefore there is no discrimination! Give me a fucking break, learn to construct an argument.

Learn to fucking read, dumbass. Between the officers, the politicians, the intelligence officers and yes, the TIE pilots there's all the evidence I need. Whether you like it or not.

You were arguing that there are NO women shown in the Rebellion in the films. There are. That point fails.

There are no women/aliens shown as pilots/soldiers (apart from one single unconfirmed female pilot). That's my point and it stands.

You're now elevating the various examples of women shown in the Empire in the EU to the same canon level as the film Rebel women. Nice double principle there, because a moment ago you were saying the EU isn't worth shit and can be overridden by personal preference based on subjective reasoning alone.

No, fucktard. I've never said that the EU can be overridden by opinion and reasoning. I'm saying that this specific EU concept is flawed and rejectable. You go and strawman that into "the entire EU is worth shit!".
Since you're arguing EU evidence, I can do the same. That's how it works. I'll drop my examples from the EU when you drop yours.

[Steel]

Then why are you arguing? My only point is that "Non-huMan" is a crock. And that the Empire may actually be going against the trend of discrimination.
There's a difference between prejudice ingrained in culture and institutionalised prejudice.

Well i'm off now so i cant continue to debate today, but you cannot seriouisly think you have a coherent argument if you believe that the empire has a policy of discrimination, but its actually better than other peoples discrimination? Whatever the reason for it, it is present... which is the point of the thread.

[Crazedwraith]

Dear God...
The EU EXPLICITLY STATES that there is a policy of discrimination. The moives DO NOT contradict this. The EU stands. What does it have to stand on? The rules of fucking canon you asshat.

The EU explicitly states that there is a policy of discrimination, mostly from a Rebel perspective (i.e. biased) based on interpretation of what's seen in the movies, which could equally be applied to the Rebellion.

I'm not violating canon at all. I'm saying that EU conclusions based on faulty evidence cannot be held as 100% proof, especially when written in such an in-universe biased perspective.

Most references which refer to the Non-HuMan track are actually from the Imperial perspective. ie) Kirtan Loor and Captain Illior herself.

[Cao Cao]

Well i'm off now so i cant continue to debate today, but you cannot seriouisly think you have a coherent argument if you believe that the empire has a policy of discrimination, but its actually better than other peoples discrimination? Whatever the reason for it, it is present... which is the point of the thread.

No it's not "better". And my notion that the Empire may be bucking the trend is just that. They may not be.
It's simply a case of arguing that misogynism is not specifically Imperial, and really no more than what we have today on Earth.

Most references which refer to the Non-HuMan track are actually from the Imperial perspective. ie) Kirtan Loor and Captain Illior herself.

Well I'm not familiar with the specific "non-huMan" stuff, just that most books dealing with Imperial racism/misogyny are done from a Rebel perspective.
Even books where Imperial characters say it could be regarded in-universe as historical accounts written by the winners, i.e. the Rebels.

[Lazarus]

The EU explicitly states that there is a policy of discrimination, mostly from a Rebel perspective (i.e. biased) based on interpretation of what's seen in the movies, which could equally be applied to the Rebellion.

Actually, no, you're just quite blatantly WRONG there. The Non-huMan source is from an Imperial perspective.

Yes, because you choose to believe that in every single case, the officers got there SOLELY because of connections and affairs ignoring the fact that a) they also demonstrated abilities suitable to their post and b) male officers also tend to get positions through connections and brown-nosing. Therefore you're just using a giant red herring to ignore the fact that there are females/aliens in the Imperial military.

There are females in the Imperial military. I agree. Please stop referring to aliens, I'm not arguing that point.

Out of every example of high-ranking females, there are in existence about ten at most. Please compare this with the many hundreds of examples of male officers. At any rate, what these cases must show to in any way contradict Non-huMan is that they were NOT discriminated against. I'm not using these examples to prove my argument, YOU have to try and use them to DISPROVE it. To do that, they have to contradict Non-huMan. Policy is to reconcile sources whenever possible, and using that established rule of canon, NONE of those examples contradict Non-huMan, because NONE of them show their women WEREN'T victims of any kind of discrimination. In fact, many of them SUPPORT Non-huMan.

Learn to fucking read, dumbass. Between the officers, the politicians, the intelligence officers and yes, the TIE pilots there's all the evidence I need. Whether you like it or not.

Oh, is it really? The politicians, who are irrelevant to this argument because they aren't in the military? The TIE pilots, who are all of low rank? The Intelligence officers of whom TWO are of a high rank, one of whom has force sensitivity, and the other is Ysanne Isard who has been dealt with already? The officers, of whom ONE is described as rising through the ranks for reasons of ability, and the remainder gained their positions through other means?

This is NOT all the evidence you need, because NONE of it counters my argument. Non-huMan is NOT discounted because you think it should be.

[Lazarus]

There are no women/aliens shown as pilots/soldiers (apart from one single unconfirmed female pilot). That's my point and it stands.

So why doesn't a fire control officer count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Rebel soldier, that she fights the Empire from a control board for a planetary defence weapon has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

I'm saying that this specific EU concept is flawed and rejectable.

On the grounds of your own reasoning. Which is worth shit. Which you should know, unless you're actually a genuine idiot.

[Isolder74]

There are no women/aliens shown as pilots/soldiers (apart from one single unconfirmed female pilot). That's my point and it stands.

So why doesn't a fire control officer count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Rebel soldier, that she fights the Empire from a control board for a planetary defence weapon has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

I'm saying that this specific EU concept is flawed and rejectable.

On the grounds of your own reasoning. Which is worth shit. Which you should know, unless you're actually a genuine idiot.

Not only is she a fire control officer, she is in command of the LARGEST REBEL WEAPON on Hoth! She is shown giving the cannon its firing orders and when and where it will fire. The LEADER of the Alliance is woman, liea a high ranking member is a woman and at Hoth was obviously the overal commander of the base and its sector. Rieken was the commander of the Base's Ground troops and security. We see another Woman on hoth, she is over at on of the scanner consols, and was in charge of spotting incomming ships in a certain sector of the space around Hoth, a pretty damn important job. Lastly one more woman is seen in the capacity of Primary communications and contol position relaying orders to the ground troops defending the base. This is after Reiken has evacuated. Both HER and Leia stay at their posts longer then they really should have. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the cause.

When you said the Rebels had only token Females. you implied that there was no other girls in the rebellion other then Leia. Or did I understand you wrong? Bringing in mentions of aliens, which is not relevent to the discussion, is a major red herring.

As we see it int the movies there are NO Women in the Imperial navy, we see none of them anywhere there. We see in the Rebels, 4 on Hoth plus one at least in Return Of the Jedi. If you look at the breifing scene we might be able to pick out a few more ladies in the group.

The point is that in the EU we are shown that women in the Empire have to struggle against an obvious glass ceiling whenever they try and rise above a certain rank and Dalla says straight out that when she was promoted because of her abilities that all of the men promoted WITH her as well as other already at her rank IMMEDIATALLY proposed that she got her position by sleeping with the big man(TARKIN).

Get it yet?

Edit: Lazarus, I was agreeing with you BTW

[FTeik]

According to the ImperialSourcebook (which is a source of information FROM a rebel FOR the rebels) all citicens and species of the Empire enjoy equal rights. One has to wonder why Major Arthur Hextapol doesn't join the crowd of people trying to make the empire look bad by claiming "they're a bunch of racists and mysoginists".

[Lazarus]

Edit: Lazarus, I was agreeing with you BTW

I noticed lol, thanks. Good point about the cannon being the most significant weapon too.

According to the ImperialSourcebook (which is a source of information FROM a rebel FOR the rebels) all citicens and species of the Empire enjoy equal rights. One has to wonder why Major Arthur Hextapol doesn't join the crowd of people trying to make the empire look bad by claiming "they're a bunch of racists and mysoginists".

Do you have the quote from that on hand? It might be helpful.

At any rate, even if the 'constitution' does grant equal rights, the Empire can still clearly do whatever the hell it wants, as evidenced by the 're-classification' of certain species. In the exact same way, the military can maintain a policy of discrimination. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Empire makes rules, and then is powerless to contravene them? 'Oh bugger, looks like we can't slag planets after all, it's in the constitution'

[TC Pilot]

Lazarus:

At any rate, even if the 'constitution' does grant equal rights, the Empire can still clearly do whatever the hell it wants, as evidenced by the 're-classification' of certain species. In the exact same way, the military can maintain a policy of discrimination. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Empire makes rules, and then is powerless to contravene them? 'Oh bugger, looks like we can't slag planets after all, it's in the constitution'

The Empire can't just blow up planets on a whim. It's a state emphasizing rule of law. Tarkin might think so, but a rouge military official acting half a galaxy away from his jurisdiction with Vader (essentially Palpatine's representative onboard the Death Star) insisting he actually get Palpatine's approval (novelization and radio drama) does not reflect the Empire on its own. Even if he does, by that logic Alderaan was committing treason (Bail Organa being a founding member of the rebellion and leader of Alderaan), thus forfeiting the rights and privelages entitled to them. The same goes for the Mon Cals and Wookiees. And besides, there's no way the Imperial government could or would justify "reclassifying" women as non-sentient.

Presumably, though, the constitution was suspended "for the duration of the emergency" beginning in O ABY.

Hey, great news, I just found this quote on Domus Publica from the Imperial Sourcebook! I don't know the page number, but I do not doubt its accuracy.

All sapient inhabitants of the Empire – except droids – are considered full citizens. Full citizens are accorded certain rights under Imperial law, namely, the right to follow the precepts of the New Order fully and without question. Other rights include certain freedoms that in no way interfere with Imperial doctrines and goals

Minus Major Arhul Hextrophon's sarcasm, it shows that the Empire grants equal rights to loyal Imperial citizens. Therefore, there simply can't be an institutional policy of misogyny against females, even in the military, without it violating the law.

Further, the "right to follow the precepts of the New Order fully and without question" reveals an interesting spin on the Kirtan Loor post you brought forward. Now, one of the central themes of the New Order is High Human Culture, which as we all know is a human cultural supremacy movement. Those who either did not meet such standards, or refused to accept it, were given the label "NonhuMan".

In the case of Captain Iilior, I find it likely, far more than victimized by any institutional bias in the navy, that her "forceful" nature in refusing to accept HHC earned her a place in "NHM", essentially dooming her career, and made worse by the number of misogynists who unofficially enacted their policy of disenfranchisement of females.

[Lazarus]

Even if he does, by that logic Alderaan was committing treason (Bail Organa being a founding member of the rebellion and leader of Alderaan), thus forfeiting the rights and privelages entitled to them.

So what you're saying is that if a SINGLE MEMBER of a particular world's population commits treason, then the Empire can revoke all rights from the entire world? Great, fits in nicely with my point.

The Empire can't just blow up planets on a whim.

Oh wait. Yes it can. Caamas anyone? Milagro? I'm not talking about 'on a whim', that they can do it AT ALL shows they don't play by any rules, least of all their own, which they can break when it suits them. If they need slaves, they'll break the rules. If they need to cooperate with crime lords, they'll break the rules. If they need to commit genocide against a religious belief, they'll break the rules. The Empire doesn't give a shit what's in the constitution. Ever heard of a genius idea called 'propaganda'?

And besides, there's no way the Imperial government could or would justify "reclassifying" women as non-sentient.

No, but there's no reason why this would be the ONLY option. Do you seriously think that when the NhM track was established, someone was going to go up to the High Command and say 'Guys, you can't do that, it's in the constitution!'

Minus Major Arhul Hextrophon's sarcasm, it shows that the Empire grants equal rights to loyal Imperial citizens. Therefore, there simply can't be an institutional policy of misogyny against females, even in the military, without it violating the law.

Except clearly these rights don't include right to a fair trial, right to religious freedom, right to freedom from persecution, habeus corpus, or anything else you'd expect from a Bill of Rights, so why exactly is it that you say this PROVES that there's no discrimination? It says nothing of the sort. If anything, it suggests the whole thing is a sham.

Therefore, there simply can't be an institutional policy of misogyny against females, even in the military, without it violating the law.

Oh noes! Can't be breakin the lawz! For the love of God, IT'S THE EMPIRE! IT DOES WHATEVER THE HELL IT WANTS!

In the case of Captain Iilior, I find it likely, far more than victimized by any institutional bias in the navy, that her "forceful" nature in refusing to accept HHC earned her a place in "NHM", essentially dooming her career, and made worse by the number of misogynists who unofficially enacted their policy of disenfranchisement of females.

That's nice. I'm happy for you. Pity that interpretation contradicts the quote then isn't it? Stop pulling the 'she was forceful! that was bad!' crap, it is stated that she HAD to be forceful TO FIGHT THE DISCRIMINATION. NhM is a track for FEMALES and aliens in the navy, not for aliens and 'forceful people'. You can babble on about HHC all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the NhM Track is an institutional policy of discrimination, for keeping track of and discriminating against both aliens and women in the Imperial military.

You're line of argument here is the same as saying black people on a hypothetical 'Nigger Track' were actually put there for being 'forceful', and nothing to do with their skin colour...

[Cao Cao]

Actually, no, you're just quite blatantly WRONG there. The Non-huMan source is from an Imperial perspective.

That does not change the fact that most discriminatory events are written from a Rebel perspective. The origin of Non-huMan itself is irrelevant.

There are females in the Imperial military. I agree. Please stop referring to aliens, I'm not arguing that point.

Bullshit. Or are you trying to say "non-huMan" does not refer to aliens?

Out of every example of high-ranking females, there are in existence about ten at most. Please compare this with the many hundreds of examples of male officers.

Do I have to make the Rebellion comparison again?

At any rate, what these cases must show to in any way contradict Non-huMan is that they were NOT discriminated against. I'm not using these examples to prove my argument, YOU have to try and use them to DISPROVE it. To do that, they have to contradict Non-huMan. Policy is to reconcile sources whenever possible, and using that established rule of canon, NONE of those examples contradict Non-huMan, because NONE of them show their women WEREN'T victims of any kind of discrimination. In fact, many of them SUPPORT Non-huMan.

No, you just assume that they got their positions through fighting discrimination even when it's not apparent, and then dismiss the others because they aren't high ranked enough.

Oh, is it really? The politicians, who are irrelevant to this argument because they aren't in the military? The TIE pilots, who are all of low rank? The Intelligence officers of whom TWO are of a high rank, one of whom has force sensitivity, and the other is Ysanne Isard who has been dealt with already? The officers, of whom ONE is described as rising through the ranks for reasons of ability, and the remainder gained their positions through other means?

There's always an excuse isn't there? Force sensitivity? Quit grasping at straws.

This is NOT all the evidence you need, because NONE of it counters my argument. Non-huMan is NOT discounted because you think it should be.

Again, that is not my point. But even if it is. you're a hypocrite then, since you think all cases of Imperial female/alien officers should be discounted because you think they should be.

So why doesn't a fire control officer count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Rebel soldier, that she fights the Empire from a control board for a planetary defence weapon has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

So why doesn't an intelligence officer not count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Imperial soldier, that she fights the Rebellion from behind the scenes in secrecy has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

On the grounds of your own reasoning. Which is worth shit. Which you should know, unless you're actually a genuine idiot.

On the grounds of the available evidence and not your wishful thinking, which is also worth shit in case you didn't know.

Not only is she a fire control officer, she is in command of the LARGEST REBEL WEAPON on Hoth! She is shown giving the cannon its firing orders and when and where it will fire.

"Stand by Ion control.. fire!"
Sounds to me like she's relaying messages, since she's talking to Ion control, not as Ion control.
But that's irrelevant. I do not think she isn't a soldier. Once again, I'm using Lazarus' logic. Except he doesn't like it when I use it on the Rebels.

The LEADER of the Alliance is woman, liea a high ranking member is a woman and at Hoth was obviously the overal commander of the base and its sector. Rieken was the commander of the Base's Ground troops and security. We see another Woman on hoth, she is over at on of the scanner consols, and was in charge of spotting incomming ships in a certain sector of the space around Hoth, a pretty damn important job. Lastly one more woman is seen in the capacity of Primary communications and contol position relaying orders to the ground troops defending the base. This is after Reiken has evacuated. Both HER and Leia stay at their posts longer then they really should have. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the cause.

Keep in mind that both Leia and Mothma are leaders of the Rebellion by virtue of their position as Senators, positions given to them by the Empire.

When you said the Rebels had only token Females. you implied that there was no other girls in the rebellion other then Leia. Or did I understand you wrong?

No, I meant that the vast majority of personnel in the Rebellion are male, just as with the Empire.
And few to know military personnel if we use Lazarus' logic. If we don't, then still all we have are a couple of controllers and perhaps one pilot.
Which still says nothing against the Empire, since half of their controllers and all of their pilots wear full suits and masks.

Bringing in mentions of aliens, which is not relevent to the discussion, is a major red herring.

How the fuck is mentioning aliens a red herring when I'm arguing against Non-huMan, a policy of discrimination against women and aliens?

The point is that in the EU we are shown that women in the Empire have to struggle against an obvious glass ceiling whenever they try and rise above a certain rank and Dalla says straight out that when she was promoted because of her abilities that all of the men promoted WITH her as well as other already at her rank IMMEDIATALLY proposed that she got her position by sleeping with the big man(TARKIN).

Get it yet?

Which implies a certain amount of cultural discrimination, it patently does not support some sort of institutionalised, policy of misogyny and racism.

So what you're saying is that if a SINGLE MEMBER of a particular world's population commits treason, then the Empire can revoke all rights from the entire world? Great, fits in nicely with my point.

Are you deliberately being daft? Bail Organa was the ruler of Alderaan and Senator for his sector before his daughter took over. Not Joe Schmoe Alderaanian. He used the resources of his position and his planet to support armed Rebellion.

No, but there's no reason why this would be the ONLY option. Do you seriously think that when the NhM track was established, someone was going to go up to the High Command and say 'Guys, you can't do that, it's in the constitution!'

Why not? Oh, because you say they wouldn't? Brilliant. It's the evil empire! They don't obew laws, they kick people in the shins, they eat babies!

Note: edited to merge posts and replace italics with proper quotes.. don't know why I did that.

[Isolder74]

So why doesn't a fire control officer count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Rebel soldier, that she fights the Empire from a control board for a planetary defence weapon has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

So why doesn't an intelligence officer not count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Imperial soldier, that she fights the Rebellion from behind the scenes in secrecy has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

On the grounds of your own reasoning. Which is worth shit. Which you should know, unless you're actually a genuine idiot.

On the grounds of the available evidence and not your wishful thinking, which is also worth shit in case you didn't know.

Not only is she a fire control officer, she is in command of the LARGEST REBEL WEAPON on Hoth! She is shown giving the cannon its firing orders and when and where it will fire.

"Stand by Ion control.. fire!"
Sounds to me like she's relaying messages, since she's talking to Ion control, not as Ion control.
But that's irrelevant. I do not think she isn't a soldier. Once again, I'm using Lazarus' logic. Except he doesn't like it when I use it on the Rebels.

She is relaying orders? When does ANYONE TELL HER TO FIRE THE CANNON? No one tells her to fire the gun the only order given previously is Prepare to open Shields. Ready Ion Control Obviously refers to the crew operating the gun. Have you never served in the military, or know anything about chain of command? In order to be relaying orders, one needs to receive and order. this woman is the same as an officer on a battleship calling up Turret One Fire Control, fire.

So by your logic the commander of a military fire base is not a soldier. The caprtain of a battleship is not a soldier. The man in charge of the radio in a platoon is not a soldier. etc.

The LEADER of the Alliance is woman, liea a high ranking member is a woman and at Hoth was obviously the overal commander of the base and its sector. Rieken was the commander of the Base's Ground troops and security. We see another Woman on hoth, she is over at on of the scanner consols, and was in charge of spotting incomming ships in a certain sector of the space around Hoth, a pretty damn important job. Lastly one more woman is seen in the capacity of Primary communications and contol position relaying orders to the ground troops defending the base. This is after Reiken has evacuated. Both HER and Leia stay at their posts longer then they really should have. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the cause.

Keep in mind that both Leia and Mothma are leaders of the Rebellion by virtue of their position as Senators, positions given to them by the Empire.

What their positions were in the Empire, Positions that were disolved BTW have nothing to do with females in the Rebellion. Mon Mothma is leader of the Rebelllion BECAUSE SHE FOUNDED it not because she was an Imperial Senator. Leia was high in the Alliance(I hope you know what an alliance is) because her father was the leader of a member planet. Her position as a senator was used many times for what she was really doing which was acting as a Rebel Cell leader. During the Battle of Yavin is obvious that Leia was in a position of high command at Yavin.

When you said the Rebels had only token Females. you implied that there was no other girls in the rebellion other then Leia. Or did I understand you wrong?

No, I meant that the vast majority of personnel in the Rebellion are male, just as with the Empire.
And few to know military personnel if we use Lazarus' logic. If we don't, then still all we have are a couple of controllers and perhaps one pilot.
Which still says nothing against the Empire, since half of their controllers and all of their pilots wear full suits and masks.

Bringing in mentions of aliens, which is not relevent to the discussion, is a major red herring.

How the fuck is mentioning aliens a red herring when I'm arguing against Non-huMan, a policy of discrimination against women and aliens?

The point is that in the EU we are shown that women in the Empire have to struggle against an obvious glass ceiling whenever they try and rise above a certain rank and Dalla says straight out that when she was promoted because of her abilities that all of the men promoted WITH her as well as other already at her rank IMMEDIATALLY proposed that she got her position by sleeping with the big man(TARKIN).

Get it yet?

Which implies a certain amount of cultural discrimination, it patently does not support some sort of institutionalised, policy of misogyny and racism

Culural or no it is still there. Also Capitolizing Man in the word Human does not change the meaning of the word. Human still refers to all humans. or are you saying that Mankind and Man when refering to the species is only talking about males of the species because the word only mentions 'Man.' Bringing in Aliens to a discussions abour descrimination against Women, is not relevent to wheather or not they discriminat agains Women. A woman in a tie fighter suit would not be able to wear a suit taylored for a man. There are extra things present. Since one has to look closely to see youe difference between non-human and your non-huMan you are only talking about aliens when you use the word.

A line from Jurassic Park come to mind.

Man brings back Dinosaurs
Dinosaurs eat Man

(woman)Woman inherits the Earth.

That statement is culturally and gramatically wrong. Man in that sentance ovbiously referes to the species so saying 'Woman inheris the Earth' like a woman is not a part of the species is not correct.

[Steel]

Actually, no, you're just quite blatantly WRONG there. The Non-huMan source is from an Imperial perspective.

That does not change the fact that most discriminatory events are written from a Rebel perspective. The origin of Non-huMan itself is irrelevant.

Excellent, so we have established that both sides and all sources cite discrimination against women then? Yep. Also that NhM exists as a policy? Yep.

There are females in the Imperial military. I agree. Please stop referring to aliens, I'm not arguing that point.

Bullshit. Or are you trying to say "non-huMan" does not refer to aliens?

*Sigh* Do you understand the definition of the word Misogyny. That is the reason it is irrelevant, because this thread is not about the empires treatment of aliens, just as it is not about the rebellions treatment of black people, so its another red herring.

Out of every example of high-ranking females, there are in existence about ten at most. Please compare this with the many hundreds of examples of male officers.

Do I have to make the Rebellion comparison again?

Dear GOD please dont! You have at least 3 people trying to jam into your head how that issue is IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC! Why dont you talk about 17th century slave trading instead, it has as much relevance, and would be a welcome change from the same ramblings.

At any rate, what these cases must show to in any way contradict Non-huMan is that they were NOT discriminated against. I'm not using these examples to prove my argument, YOU have to try and use them to DISPROVE it. To do that, they have to contradict Non-huMan. Policy is to reconcile sources whenever possible, and using that established rule of canon, NONE of those examples contradict Non-huMan, because NONE of them show their women WEREN'T victims of any kind of discrimination. In fact, many of them SUPPORT Non-huMan.

No, you just assume that they got their positions through fighting discrimination even when it's not apparent, and then dismiss the others because they aren't high ranked enough.

Ok, when we see that there are very few women present, and all sources from both sides state that there is a policy of discrimination against women, then the only logical conclusion is that the two are linked. There is no possible way for you to disprove the existence of this policy by giving individual examples.

Oh, is it really? The politicians, who are irrelevant to this argument because they aren't in the military? The TIE pilots, who are all of low rank? The Intelligence officers of whom TWO are of a high rank, one of whom has force sensitivity, and the other is Ysanne Isard who has been dealt with already? The officers, of whom ONE is described as rising through the ranks for reasons of ability, and the remainder gained their positions through other means?

There's always an excuse isn't there? Force sensitivity? Quit grasping at straws.

Yeah, i mean its not as if a force user would be able to manipulate his or her way up the ranks... i mean thats absurd right? Theres no way a force user could become emperor or anything

Dipshit.

This is NOT all the evidence you need, because NONE of it counters my argument. Non-huMan is NOT discounted because you think it should be.

Again, that is not my point. But even if it is. you're a hypocrite then, since you think all cases of Imperial female/alien officers should be discounted because you think they should be.

Ah but the crucial difference is that Lazarus is giving reasons when he dismisses things. You are asking to be able to throw out evidence on a 1:1 basis, which is rather hilarious to read. You cant request that your opponent drops one argument for every one of yours they defeat.

So why doesn't a fire control officer count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Rebel soldier, that she fights the Empire from a control board for a planetary defence weapon has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

So why doesn't an intelligence officer not count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Imperial soldier, that she fights the Rebellion from behind the scenes in secrecy has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

Ummm.... not really sure you understand the situation here. If imperial inteligence is not a part of the imperial military then it cannot be used in a debate about the imperial military ok? Someone who fires a massive gun is obviously a member of the military.

On the grounds of your own reasoning. Which is worth shit. Which you should know, unless you're actually a genuine idiot.

On the grounds of the available evidence and not your wishful thinking, which is also worth shit in case you didn't know.

Oops forgot to actually cite this evidence then did you?

Not only is she a fire control officer, she is in command of the LARGEST REBEL WEAPON on Hoth! She is shown giving the cannon its firing orders and when and where it will fire.

"Stand by Ion control.. fire!"
Sounds to me like she's relaying messages, since she's talking to Ion control, not as Ion control.
But that's irrelevant. I do not think she isn't a soldier. Once again, I'm using Lazarus' logic. Except he doesn't like it when I use it on the Rebels.

Nobody likes it when you use your 'logic' on the rebels, because they are fucking irrelevant to the issue!

The LEADER of the Alliance is woman, liea a high ranking member is a woman and at Hoth was obviously the overal commander of the base and its sector. Rieken was the commander of the Base's Ground troops and security. We see another Woman on hoth, she is over at on of the scanner consols, and was in charge of spotting incomming ships in a certain sector of the space around Hoth, a pretty damn important job. Lastly one more woman is seen in the capacity of Primary communications and contol position relaying orders to the ground troops defending the base. This is after Reiken has evacuated. Both HER and Leia stay at their posts longer then they really should have. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the cause.

Keep in mind that both Leia and Mothma are leaders of the Rebellion by virtue of their position as Senators, positions given to them by the Empire.

So in their positions as the leaders of the rebellion, do you think they thought "hey, i'd better keep all the guys happy by instituting a policy of misogyny!" How the hell does this support your argument in any way? The positions were not given to them by the empire, they were given to them by their electorate, not by the imperial high command!

But again this is not relevant to the debate.

When you said the Rebels had only token Females. you implied that there was no other girls in the rebellion other then Leia. Or did I understand you wrong?

No, I meant that the vast majority of personnel in the Rebellion are male, just as with the Empire.
And few to know (presubably no) military personnel if we use Lazarus' logic. If we don't, then still all we have are a couple of controllers and perhaps one pilot.
Which still says nothing against the Empire, since half of their controllers and all of their pilots wear full suits and masks.

You are aware that there are other features that distinguish boys and girls other than their faces right? (also out of universe, none of those are credited as females)

Bringing in mentions of aliens, which is not relevent to the discussion, is a major red herring.

How the fuck is mentioning aliens a red herring when I'm arguing against Non-huMan, a policy of discrimination against women and aliens?

Because again: LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE

This is probably the 5th time that someone has had to tell you what that word means.

For the last time lets go through the title as if you were an infant, as nothing else seems to have gotten through to you:

"the myth of misogyny in the galactic empire"

Now the first 3 words are inviting discussion on the second half of the sentence. Then we have misogyny, defined earlier, but again: n.
Hatred of women. Then finally: "in the galactic empire" guess what? That means that the rebellion, aliens and the east india company arent relevant in this thread.

The point is that in the EU we are shown that women in the Empire have to struggle against an obvious glass ceiling whenever they try and rise above a certain rank and Dalla says straight out that when she was promoted because of her abilities that all of the men promoted WITH her as well as other already at her rank IMMEDIATALLY proposed that she got her position by sleeping with the big man(TARKIN).

Get it yet?

Which implies a certain amount of cultural discrimination, it patently does not support some sort of institutionalised, policy of misogyny and racism.

It demonstrates that it was unusual for a woman to be promoted to that rank, and that the men did in fact abuse her. So in what way does this indicate that everyone in the SW galaxy is racist and not just the military? I dont see any references to anyone outside the military there, and so to conclude that its entirely cultural is bullshit.

So what you're saying is that if a SINGLE MEMBER of a particular world's population commits treason, then the Empire can revoke all rights from the entire world? Great, fits in nicely with my point.

Are you deliberately being daft? Bail Organa was the ruler of Alderaan and Senator for his sector before his daughter took over. Not Joe Schmoe Alderaanian. He used the resources of his position and his planet to support armed Rebellion.

The fact remains that the empire was able to kill everyone on alderaan and destroy the planet, something they should not have been able to do if everyone has rights. Are you suggesting that Organa had the support of everyone on the world and every single one of them was guilty of treason? The empire didnt need to destroy the world except as a show of force, and there was no mention of tarkin being reprimanded for his actions.

No, but there's no reason why this would be the ONLY option. Do you seriously think that when the NhM track was established, someone was going to go up to the High Command and say 'Guys, you can't do that, it's in the constitution!'

Why not? Oh, because you say they wouldn't? Brilliant. It's the evil empire! They don't obew laws, they kick people in the shins, they eat babies!

Well even if they did, apparently nobody gave a shit because the policy is still there isnt it fuckwad. The issue of the whole SW galaxy being sexist/racist does not affect the issue of the EMPIRE being sexist/racist. You cant say that its not racist if everyone does it, that would mean that an aryan supremacy meeting isnt racist because everyone there agrees with it.

Crap i see i have just been beaten to the post...

[Isolder74]

By the way in the History Channel presentation on Star Wars, Lucas indicates that the reason we see no woman in the Empire is because they represent 'life' and the Empire stands for death. Lucas himself indicates that there is a policy of Misogyny in the Empire as well as Xenophobia. Truthfully Palpitine himself uses and uses up others as he sees fit.

Note that in 20 years from the institiution of the Empire, there are no aliens seen in Any position of Authority anywhere on the Death Star. It is shown that the Highest ranks of the Empire is a Human only club as well and a Male only club.

[Lazarus]

That does not change the fact that most discriminatory events are written from a Rebel perspective. The origin of Non-huMan itself is irrelevant.

Uh huh. Like Daala? And Varrscha? Major General Corvae? All cases of discrimination in the Imperial military, because all are EXPLICITLY STATED as unable to reach their ranks without unusual means due to discrimination FROM THE IMPERIAL PERSPECTIVE.

Bullshit. Or are you trying to say "non-huMan" does not refer to aliens?

Indeed it does refer to aliens, but I am NOT arguing that point, they are NOT relevant to a discussion about women. You have been told multiple times now to stop bringing in Red Herrings to disguise the fact you've presented no evidence AT ALL so far, apart from an 'analogy' which is pretty weak and has been countered, and your own reasoning, which is worthless and proves nothing.

Do I have to make the Rebellion comparison again?

Oh, please do. Make the comparison that in the EU there are an equal number of women in the Rebellion/NR to the Empire, which was the point I was disproving. It'll be hilarious.

No, you just assume that they got their positions through fighting discrimination even when it's not apparent, and then dismiss the others because they aren't high ranked enough.

As per the rules of canon. Sources must be reconciled if they can be. As there is nothing about these examples careers, the other EU evidence comes into play and states they were discriminated against. This is not contradicted, and stands. As for the examples who aren't high ranked enough, you're suggesting that a few TIE pilots in any way prove there was no discrimination? Are you genuinely retarded? Individuals can't be discriminated against when being promoted if THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PROMOTED AT ALL. Various examples of pilots, junior officers etc all fit in easily with the discriminatory policies, it's only officers of any high rank (post-rank and above, obviously) that might contradict this.

There's always an excuse isn't there? Force sensitivity? Quit grasping at straws.

It's called RECONCILIATION. To avoid the entire Star Wars universe tearing itself apart because every single goddamn source conflicts with every other one, sources have to be reconciled with each other. Force sensitivity EXPLAINS why this officer held the rank of Colonel in a discriminatory military.

Again, that is not my point. But even if it is. you're a hypocrite then, since you think all cases of Imperial female/alien officers should be discounted because you think they should be.

1. Stop the herring tactics right now, it's fucking offensive.
2. No, the evidence (which, by the way, you have none of) shows that these officers have factors which explain their rise in a discriminatory military.

So why doesn't an intelligence officer not count as a soldier? Cos she doesn't have a gun? She is a serving Imperial soldier, that she fights the Rebellion from behind the scenes in secrecy has nothing to do with her status as a soldier.

Go. Fuck. Yourself.

I have repeatedly stated in several different posts, which you have already acknowledged, that I am NOT saying Intelligence operatives do not count. I dealt with the examples in exactly the same way as the others. I SUGGESTED that in my personal opinion there will be a difference in the application of the discriminatory policies because Intel needs women, NOT that they are non-military.

On the grounds of the available evidence and not your wishful thinking, which is also worth shit in case you didn't know.

Oh, the available evidence, yeah? That available evidence, of which you have none of, yeah? That available evidence, which for you consists of 'there are only a few women in the Alliance on-screen'? Which proves ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING?

You really, really need to learn about what evidence is. Here's a hint: 'lack of women in the alliance on screen' leading to your conclusion 'there must therefore be discrimination in the alliance too' is NOT a sound argument, because the former IN NO WAY proves the latter. At most, it INDICATES something based on that evidence alone. The EU evidence, which despite your protestations to the contrary, stands, provides PROOF there was discrimination in the Imperial military. In contrast, it provides hundreds of examples of serving females in the Rebellion, and NOTHING about discrimination there.

Keep in mind that both Leia and Mothma are leaders of the Rebellion by virtue of their position as Senators, positions given to them by the Empire.

Positions they were elected to by the people of Chandrila and Alderaan, opponents of the Empire. A senate the Empire then removed in its entirety because of problems like this, adding yet more evidence to the argument that IT DOES WHATEVER THE HELL IT WANTS.

No, I meant that the vast majority of personnel in the Rebellion are male, just as with the Empire.

Congratulations, you've just be anal raped by the EU evidence! This conclusion is proved utterly wrong by the ENTIRE FUCKING EU! Take your movie purist bullshit and go elsewhere.

And few to know military personnel if we use Lazarus' logic. If we don't, then still all we have are a couple of controllers and perhaps one pilot.

Once again, I'm forced to repeat those words of great wisdom.

GO FUCK YOURSELF.

Stop strawmanning my argument right the fuck now. I have, at no point, stated that Intelligence should be discounted. I have suggested that I, personally, am unconvinced exactly the same legislation applies, but I am NOT arguing that point. You have already acknowledged this, and bringing it into this argument again is fucking offensive.

How the fuck is mentioning aliens a red herring when I'm arguing against Non-huMan, a policy of discrimination against women and aliens?

Then get the fuck out of this thread and start another one on discrimination against aliens, because that is NOT what this is about.

Which implies a certain amount of cultural discrimination, it patently does not support some sort of institutionalised, policy of misogyny and racism.

So you thought you'd just ignore the patently obvious evidence for this policy on the form of Non-huMan then? Cos it's inconvenient and you don't like it?

Are you deliberately being daft? Bail Organa was the ruler of Alderaan and Senator for his sector before his daughter took over. Not Joe Schmoe Alderaanian. He used the resources of his position and his planet to support armed Rebellion.

So that justifies wiping out the entire fucking race then does it? Is there a passage in this 'constitution' that says 'in the event of treason, blow the motherfuckers to hell, and anyone near them, and anyone near them too'? The Empire does whatever the fuck it wants, the constitution is a sham.

Why not? Oh, because you say they wouldn't? Brilliant. It's the evil empire! They don't obew laws, they kick people in the shins, they eat babies!

No, its the totalitarian Empire, they blow planets up, commit genocide, persecute religious and ethnic minorites, enslave entire races...

So you're saying then that it is utterly impossible for a totalitarian government to contravene it's own laws? That's patent bullshit and you know it.

[Isolder74]

One other thing to note.

In the case of Dalla she only got Tarkin's attention after posing as a man on a computer test. When Tarkin looked up the username of the one who scored so well and found who it really was is what resulting her getting the promotion.

Intereseting huh? In order for Dalla's answers to get the attention it deserved she HAD to pose as a man.

[Lazarus]

In the case of Dalla she only got Tarkin's attention after posing as a man on a computer test. When Tarkin looked up the username of the one who scored so well and found who it really was is what resulting her getting the promotion.

A good point. For those who say the entire character and everything she says should be discounted because she isn't a particularly brilliant naval tactician (more down to outdated tactics in JAT than anything else), remember that her ground tactics and strategy was stated as being far in excess of anyone else at the Academy. As for why Tarkin then made her a naval Admiral instead of a General, it was probably down to her intended duties at Maw Installation.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's it, the Empire officially hates vaginas.

[Warsie]

According to the ImperialSourcebook (which is a source of information FROM a rebel FOR the rebels) all citicens and species of the Empire enjoy equal rights. One has to wonder why Major Arthur Hextapol doesn't join the crowd of people trying to make the empire look bad by claiming "they're a bunch of racists and mysoginists".

Heh...I've heard others saying that the NEC (written by the game guy in-universe, right?) is heavily-biased towards the NR. It's kind've weird.

The Empire can't just blow up planets on a whim. It's a state emphasizing rule of law. Tarkin might think so, but a rouge military official acting half a galaxy away from his jurisdiction with Vader (essentially Palpatine's representative onboard the Death Star) insisting he actually get Palpatine's approval (novelization and radio drama) does not reflect the Empire on its own. Even if he does, by that logic Alderaan was committing treason (Bail Organa being a founding member of the rebellion and leader of Alderaan), thus forfeiting the rights and privelages entitled to them. The same goes for the Mon Cals and Wookiees. And besides, there's no way the Imperial government could or would justify "reclassifying" women as non-sentient.

Technically, Tarkin said that he did ask Palpatine in advance whether he could destroy a planet but Vader was cautious as Alderaan was a Core World.