Space Empires V PBW game?

[brianeyci]

Ladies and Gents can I have your attention. This is Spock's Coffin.



Yes, the Federation doesn't have a picture for drone but that's not my point. Apparently, it is pretty simple to destroy a homeworld with a handful of drones.

With one drone, I can usually kill 1 facility. With two drones, I can kill four facilities. I've killed eight facilities with three drones. Between 8 - 10 drones strips a planet bare of facilities.

Drones are difficult to hit early on with a 50% defense bonus, and someone spamming drones right now could potentially destroy several races singlehandedly. And I am using level 0 drones with level 0 warhead for my sims. I can make 2 drones a turn without emergency build, far more with.

It's cheap as hell to destroy a homeworld with just a couple turns worth of drones. And that's just homeworlds. Colony worlds could have their facilities destroyed with two or three drones.

If it can be confirmed that drones in a squadron multiplicate their damage, I propose banning use of drones in this fashion. Just because a drone is in a squadron, that shouldn't mean it does an exponential amount of damage compared to a drone working alone. It's just as lame as undetectable mine dropping in combat or launching sats into the middle of a planet to keep them from being hit.

The population lives, but the facilities die. There's no difference though, because if you destroy all of a homeworld's facilities this early on, it'll take 30 turns for them to rebuild.

Kiting missile frigates, napalm frigates, fighters, dedicated bombers to destroy planets, don't do as much damage as this.

[InnocentBystander]

1. Make sure the planet you're trying to load from has enough population.
2. Click the transport, press backspace. Make sure there are no orders.
3. Press o. Click on the planet. Select the planet, if there's more than one item in the square. Make sure you select the right thing to load from, a planet not a base space yard or anything.
4. That should be it, click move to move after you've finished loading.

If that doesn't work try this.
1. Move transport to planet. Wait until next turn or until the transport is on the planet.
2. Press o when the transport is on the same square as the planet. Load population.
3. Don't move at all.
4. Wait until next turn when the transport's loaded. Then move.

If worst comes to worst try and make a single player simultaneous game and see what exactly's wrong. Colonizers load cargo too, if you do it exactly the same way as you load a colonizer there should be no problem.

EDIT : It may be that remote load and remote drop are executed BEFORE any kind of orders to move at all. In that case, make sure your population transport is on the same square as the planet. Remote load, but DO NOT remote drop. Move to the planet. Wait until the transport is on the planet waiting, then remote drop. Not ideal, but if that's the way SEV handles it, oh well.

I was pretty anal about making sure the orders looked good the first turn, what I'm going to do this turn:
Order List:
Move to Planet (homeworld - it HAS people)
remote load (select planet) Population
Move away from planet

this *should* work.

Right..?

If it can be confirmed that drones in a squadron multiplicate their damage

What does this mean? Squadrons? You mean like... if they launch in a stack their weapons multiply each other?
So if a missile does 50 damage, then each missile does 50x5? So a salvo does 1250 damage instead of 250? Thats a pretty retarded bug. But not half as retarded as me and my population transportation problem.

[brianeyci]

I was pretty anal about making sure the orders looked good the first turn, what I'm going to do this turn:
Order List:
Move to Planet (homeworld - it HAS people)
remote load (select planet) Population
Move away from planet

this *should* work.

Right..?

Maybe not. I don't know how SEV handles the remote load order. It could be executed BEFORE any other order. If remote load and remote drop both work this way it would explain the fuckup.

What you might need to do is this. Move to the planet this turn. Next turn, remote load and move. Do not remote drop.

In a sane world your way would work but I don't know. If you give me your password I can look at your turn (we can trade pw's for one turn if you want.)

What does this mean? Squadrons? You mean like... if they launch in a stack their weapons multiply each other?
So if a missile does 50 damage, then each missile does 50x5? So a salvo does 1250 damage instead of 250? Thats a pretty retarded bug. But not half as retarded as me and my population transportation problem.

It seems to only affect the anti-planet warhead. The problem is I don't entirely understand SEV's ramming model. I made my own custom version of Balance Mod, so that I could get rid of any variable damage (anti-planet does between 750 - 1000 in normal balance mod.) I tried to find a equation for damage, but the damage is still variable. Apparently depending on what side of the planet the drone rams, different facilities die. So I cannot confirm 100% the bug.

But initial testing leads me to believe this is the damage of anti-planet warhead:

Code: Select all

(A * B) ^ N

A - number of anti-planet warheads
B - amount of base damage of anti-planet warhead.
N - number of drones in squadron

So a single Spock's Coffin can do between (750 * 2) ^ 1 - (1000 * 2) ^ 1 damage.
Two drones can do (750 * 2) ^ 2 - (1000 * 2) ^ 2 damage.
Three drones can do (750 * 2) ^ 3 - (1000 * 2) ^ 3 damage.

Keep in mind this is the easiest, worst kind of drone with the lowest amount of damage.

I think anti-planet warhead should be banned for a number of reasons.

• It forces only one correct route. In order to stop someone who rushed for anti-planet warhead, right now you'd need to have a high level of combat sensor 8+ and and a decent level of PD to shoot them down. I know not everybody went high combat sensor. This is supposed to be balance mod, not lamer mod where there's only one way to play correctly. A player who did not research high levels of combat sensor and PD would be dead, because there's no way to hit the drones with 50% bonus at early or mid-game. This is not like letting a capital ship missile through which does 100 damage. If you let three or four through it could destroy 10 facilities.
• Late game, there will be drone spam. A drone costs 100 bucks to maintain. I can imagine 1000 drones, sent through warp points to overwhelm point-defense. Drones are fast, so fast that fighters can't reliably catch up with them at the same tech level. So drone spam will be the lameass tactic, unstoppable unless the person has more technology. You are basically packing a planet cracker in a transport for 1000 bucks of maintainence.
• Fighters, ships, satellites don't increase their damage working in packs. It just doesn't make sense.

Getting drones is a highly specialized tactic -- by now you'd have to have dumped 100k for industry, several tens of k for computers and several tens of k for drones. But I don't think that someone should be rewarded just because they know some obscure route in the technology tree (who researches industry and computers for a weapon, that doesn't make sense!).

The good thing is if we ban anti-planet warhead, the exponential damage doesn't seem to happen with ships. So a drone spammer can still put weapons on drones and still use anti-ship warhead. Just not fucking anti-planet cheapoid.

I am not sure whether napalm suffers from this problem too on drones. But I do know one thing -- 20 level 0 napalms bombing a homeworld for an entire combat doesn't kill a single facility.

We could also ban drones from attacking planets, just to be on the safe side, in case there's other multiplied damage. But I think it's only with anti-planet warhead.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I thought that bug was fixed. Looks like we'll need that rule. No anti-planet drones.

[brianeyci]

Hey my equations were wrong. Should have been ((damage of warheads combined/1000) ^ n) * 1000, where n is the number of drones in the squadron. But that doesn't matter -- what matters is the anti-planet warheads are broken as fuck and I'm glad to see them banned.

I almost want to bring up the issue of high levels of ecm, plus 50% bonus on fighters as "broken" too but at least there's emissive armors and fighters are a nightmare logistically to deploy. Super dodge fighters could be stopped by bomblet missiles too while drones have starship level armor and having anything but a perfect bomblet defense would be fatal to your empire (and wouldn't work against fully armored drones with emissives). At least with fighters they linger to shoot, while the window of opportunity to shoot down a drone is extremely small. Drones don't have supply problems like fighters, fire and forget shit, and can even go through warp points. A real nightmare late game would've been fleeted drones with 50% + ecm + fleet training, set to run from ships, and even if a few drones got loose in your empire, synoria.

Don't worry drone whores, you can still pack a ton of weapons and use them like fighter whores, tons of ecm etc. Just not drones like that lame Voyager episode where something the size of a desk could destroy a planet.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

So to sum up for those who haven't been following:

1. No anti-planet drones. The game's internal formula is broken, causing them to be way overpowered.

2. No dropping mines in combat. They're invisible so there's no way to avoid them or shoot them down, and the AI always makes a straight beeline for target ships, so it will hit every single mine. Mines launched in combat cannot be swept, and one minelayer is capable of taking down a fleet this way.

3. No launching satellites from a planet in combat. They sit at the center of the planet where they cannot be targeted, so they can hit you and you can't hit back.

[Alan Bolte]

Oh. okay then. Damn, I wasted all that on drones...

[brianeyci]

You went drones? Aww .

You're not necessarily boned. Anti-ship drones don't have the same problem, and you can arm your drones and use them like fighters.

Don't you think it's a little cheap to kill an entire planet's facilities with 8 drones? I think it is. Have you tried the same thing with napalm and other things, it doesn't even scratch facilities.

[Nephtys]

Actually, now that I think of it... Drones are probably the most efficient means of a sensor grid available.

Ships are out of the question. Even a frigate is too expenisive if you need 2 o 3 of them for sensor coverage of a system. Laying sats down does the job nice and cheaply, but it takes forever to get a transport to fly to every system and drop sats. You also can't move them then.

A Drone with only sensors however, barely costs more than 2 fighters, and can move itself around. They're also cheap enough to be built in several per turn, instead of one frig a turn or something. So they're great intel tools, as well as the fact that they can jump like a ship.

[Alan Bolte]

Ha, I didn't even realize they could jump.

[GuppyShark]

Hrmm, how long has the PBW site been down?

[Covenant]

Hrmm, how long has the PBW site been down?

Quite some time. I'm gonna go to bed. I don't know what the turn status is, but this looks like another one of those day-and-a-half breakdowns.

[GuppyShark]

Filthy site!

I want my money back!

[Covenant]

Filthy site!

I want my money back!

It's back up now.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Turn uploaded. Will be a 37 hour turn this time.

[brianeyci]

Well looks like I am totally wrong... we can't see treaty elements with other empires, just your own personal treaty elements.

Still shouldn't be a problem. We'll know if someone is tech trading, especially if Tuxedo threatens random spot checks every 10 turns or so to check out people's treaty elements and decrees people killed if they do it. Yeah Tuxedo's playing the game, but if he wanted to he could cheat anyway so it's no big deal. And it's more the threat of being found out anyway that'll kill off any possibility of getting away with it, so even if Tuxedo only does it once, ever, and threatens to boot people, should be enough. I only say because every game we've had tech trading even though there's been a ban on it.

[Hotfoot]

Actually, now that I think of it... Drones are probably the most efficient means of a sensor grid available.

Ships are out of the question. Even a frigate is too expenisive if you need 2 o 3 of them for sensor coverage of a system. Laying sats down does the job nice and cheaply, but it takes forever to get a transport to fly to every system and drop sats. You also can't move them then.

A Drone with only sensors however, barely costs more than 2 fighters, and can move itself around. They're also cheap enough to be built in several per turn, instead of one frig a turn or something. So they're great intel tools, as well as the fact that they can jump like a ship.

Short lived, though, given that they cannot be resupplied. This means you'll have to replace them on a regular basis. Why not just make satellites and deploy them?

[brianeyci]

Can't drones be ordered not to move and therefore not use supplies?

By the way, missile whores should be aware that capital ship missile always has a static defense bonus, along with plasma missile, of 50%. I'm rapidly approaching the point where I can shoot them down 50/50, and even the worst kind of pd can take down a missile in one hit. In several turns I'll be able to shoot down missiles 100%, and unless you can launch many many more missiles than I have PD it won't work.

The same fate will await fighter whores, who research only fighter and high levels of ecm. It'll take awhile, but it will happen. Probably mid-game, when fleet training and ship training gets accessible and combat sensor is 10+.

If you are going pure missile and no beams, combo with fighter to saturate point defense. And there's other tricks too.

If anybody doesn't know how to balance, contact me and the Federation will send some military specialists at a price.

In short, diversify or die.

[Hotfoot]

Can't drones be ordered not to move and therefore not use supplies?

Potentially, it may work out okay.

By the way, missile whores should be aware that capital ship missile always has a static defense bonus, along with plasma missile, of 50%. I'm rapidly approaching the point where I can shoot them down 50/50, and even the worst kind of pd can take down a missile in one hit. In several turns I'll be able to shoot down missiles 100%, and unless you can launch many many more missiles than I have PD it won't work.

The same fate will await fighter whores, who research only fighter and high levels of ecm. It'll take awhile, but it will happen. Probably mid-game, when fleet training and ship training gets accessible and combat sensor is 10+.

If you are going pure missile and no beams, combo with fighter to saturate point defense. And there's other tricks too.

If anybody doesn't know how to balance, contact me and the Federation will send some military specialists at a price.

In short, diversify or die.

Remember to do larger scale tests, the targeting of PD will result in very inefficient targeting past a certain point.

[Keevan_Colton]

I havent recieved the latest turn.

[GuppyShark]

I didn't either - looks like you have to grab this turn directly from the website. It happens, unfortunately.

EDIT: This Week: No Games Played, Keevan?

[brianeyci]

Remember to do larger scale tests, the targeting of PD will result in very inefficient targeting past a certain point.

I did. In the very late game with balance mod, PD owns missiles and beams own fighters. Once you can one-shot a fighter, which actually needs a lot of technology to get past the to-hit bonus, fighters start getting inefficient. Once missiles can get shot down by a picket screen, they're not as useful as beams at all, and beams hit instantly.

Inefficient targeting is a far more serious problem with fighters in balance mod. With picket ships, all the fighters shoot one thing. Meanwhile, picket ships hit the nearest fighter, which is not always the same fighter and they one shot them. Rocket pods have 8 reload, so all the 500 fighters will hit one frigate and be vulnerable for 8 seconds, an eternity. Antimatter torpedoes, 4 seconds. Direct-fire fighter weapons in balance mod are not as broken -- emissive armor entirely negates their damage to 1. The rocket pods and antimatter torpedoes always overkill and have an obscene reload. Also in balance mod, rocket pods and antimatter torps need an obscene amount of supplies. They're literally good for one sortie and it's game over. The trick in balance mod is having a proper combined arms fleet like its name says.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Sometimes it doesn't send the turns, so just go to the PBW site and click "Get Turn" from the game's page.

[Hotfoot]

Hm, that's a solution I didn't think of before, and I'll admit I feel rather foolish for not having considered it.

Emissive armor always struck me as being insanely useless, since it could never even block fighter guns effectively, but with the proper buff, it makes things worthwhile. Glad to know that at least targeting glitches have other solutions, though I still would like to find a way to fix targeting as well.

[Kingside_Bishop]

Hey, I'm back from my vacation... yay... Anyway, I should be way more reliable a player now, with regular internet and computer access.

So, um... yeah, I've been really impressed, all along, with the degree to which combined arms is necessary in the Balance Mod. In stock, there are a few super-weapons, which aren't even organized into a rock-paper-scissors scheme. But in BM, I not only feel safer in picking other technologies, but in experimenting with little out-of-the-way combinations.

Way cooler.

At any rate, hats off to Brian... that's a helluva bug. Gamebreaking, potentially. Also, a nicely named drone if ever there was one.