Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[Tanasinn]

To be fair about Daala, she proved to be an absolutely shitty military commander in the long run. Perhaps, in her case, her cries of discrimination were nothing more than the wounded ego of a mediocre military mind talking.

[Cao Cao]

She is relaying orders? When does ANYONE TELL HER TO FIRE THE CANNON? No one tells her to fire the gun the only order given previously is Prepare to open Shields. Ready Ion Control Obviously refers to the crew operating the gun. Have you never served in the military, or know anything about chain of command? In order to be relaying orders, one needs to receive and order. this woman is the same as an officer on a battleship calling up Turret One Fire Control, fire.

So by your logic the commander of a military fire base is not a soldier. The caprtain of a battleship is not a soldier. The man in charge of the radio in a platoon is not a soldier. etc.

Conceeded. As I've said, I'm not of the opinion that she isn't a soldier anyway.

What their positions were in the Empire, Positions that were disolved BTW have nothing to do with females in the Rebellion. Mon Mothma is leader of the Rebelllion BECAUSE SHE FOUNDED it not because she was an Imperial Senator. Leia was high in the Alliance(I hope you know what an alliance is) because her father was the leader of a member planet. Her position as a senator was used many times for what she was really doing which was acting as a Rebel Cell leader. During the Battle of Yavin is obvious that Leia was in a position of high command at Yavin.

Mon Mothma was able to found the Rebellion BECAUSE SHE WAS A SENATOR. The fact that Leia inherited her position is irrelevant. The point is neither of their positions were given by the Rebellion itself.
Also, the fact that the Senate was dissolved has nothing to do with this.

Culural or no it is still there.

Irrelevant. Once again, I'm debating against the existance of deliberate policy.

Also Capitolizing Man in the word Human does not change the meaning of the word. Human still refers to all humans. or are you saying that Mankind and Man when refering to the species is only talking about males of the species because the word only mentions 'Man.' Bringing in Aliens to a discussions abour descrimination against Women, is not relevent to wheather or not they discriminat agains Women. A woman in a tie fighter suit would not be able to wear a suit taylored for a man. There are extra things present. Since one has to look closely to see youe difference between non-human and your non-huMan you are only talking about aliens when you use the word.

Non-huMan has been stated as an Imperial policy that discriminates against human women and aliens. Therefore, if I can use alien examples to disprove Non-huMan, I will. It's not a red herring simply because it's inconvenient. Non-huMan either exists or it doesn't.

Excellent, so we have established that both sides and all sources cite discrimination against women then? Yep. Also that NhM exists as a policy? Yep.

What?

*Sigh* Do you understand the definition of the word Misogyny. That is the reason it is irrelevant, because this thread is not about the empires treatment of aliens, just as it is not about the rebellions treatment of black people, so its another red herring.

If there was a seperate policy of discrimination against aliens then you'd have a point. But there isn't. So you don't. Non-huMan is a catchall policy so I have every right to use whatever aspects of it that I please to discredit it.

Ok, when we see that there are very few women present, and all sources from both sides state that there is a policy of discrimination against women, then the only logical conclusion is that the two are linked. There is no possible way for you to disprove the existence of this policy by giving individual examples.

The only thing it may suggest is that there is some degree of cultural discrimination. Not a policy.

[quote[Yeah, i mean its not as if a force user would be able to manipulate his or her way up the ranks... i mean thats absurd right? Theres no way a force user could become emperor or anything [/quote]

Which has what to do with misogyny? That's right, nothing. Oops, red herring.

Ah but the crucial difference is that Lazarus is giving reasons when he dismisses things. You are asking to be able to throw out evidence on a 1:1 basis, which is rather hilarious to read. You cant request that your opponent drops one argument for every one of yours they defeat.

What reasons? "They're intelligence, no conflicts with my precious policy"? Whatever.

Ummm.... not really sure you understand the situation here. If imperial inteligence is not a part of the imperial military then it cannot be used in a debate about the imperial military ok? Someone who fires a massive gun is obviously a member of the military.

Because an intelligence officer with a military rank is not part of the military, right?

Oops forgot to actually cite this evidence then did you?

I have. Repeatedly.

Nobody likes it when you use your 'logic' on the rebels, because they are fucking irrelevant to the issue!

Yes yes, it's all irrelevant because it's inconvenient for you.

So in their positions as the leaders of the rebellion, do you think they thought "hey, i'd better keep all the guys happy by instituting a policy of misogyny!" How the hell does this support your argument in any way? The positions were not given to them by the empire, they were given to them by their electorate, not by the imperial high command!

Hey moron. I'm simply pointing out that their positions were not given by the Rebellion, nor am I arguing that they have a policy of discrimination.

You are aware that there are other features that distinguish boys and girls other than their faces right? (also out of universe, none of those are credited as females)

Because armoured body suits are real easy to spot bodily features in, right?

Because again: LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE

This is probably the 5th time that someone has had to tell you what that word means.

For the last time lets go through the title as if you were an infant, as nothing else seems to have gotten through to you:

"the myth of misogyny in the galactic empire"

Now the first 3 words are inviting discussion on the second half of the sentence. Then we have misogyny, defined earlier, but again: n.
Hatred of women. Then finally: "in the galactic empire" guess what? That means that the rebellion, aliens and the east india company arent relevant in this thread.

What the fuck is so hard to understand about I. AM. ARGUING. AGAINST. THE. POLICY. OF. "NON-HUMAN".

It demonstrates that it was unusual for a woman to be promoted to that rank, and that the men did in fact abuse her. So in what way does this indicate that everyone in the SW galaxy is racist and not just the military? I dont see any references to anyone outside the military there, and so to conclude that its entirely cultural is bullshit.

And where does it demonstrate that this discrimination is deliberate and unique to the Imperial military? Oh right, it doesn't.

The fact remains that the empire was able to kill everyone on alderaan and destroy the planet, something they should not have been able to do if everyone has rights. Are you suggesting that Organa had the support of everyone on the world and every single one of them was guilty of treason? The empire didnt need to destroy the world except as a show of force, and there was no mention of tarkin being reprimanded for his actions.

What rights do rebels against the state have? None.
What Tarkin did was immoral. But nobody's saying it was moral, we're saying it was legal.

Well even if they did, apparently nobody gave a shit because the policy is still there isnt it fuckwad. The issue of the whole SW galaxy being sexist/racist does not affect the issue of the EMPIRE being sexist/racist. You cant say that its not racist if everyone does it, that would mean that an aryan supremacy meeting isnt racist because everyone there agrees with it.

What I'm saying is that there *may* be a degree of cultural discrimination which filters down into the Imperial and Rebel militaries.
I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS NO SEXISM/RACISM. I AM SAYING IT IS NOT DELIBERATE ON THE PART OF THE EMPIRE.

[Isolder74]

Non-human and glass ceiling are two different issues.

Also your making up nomenclature does NOT make it proper. You notation is not proper English as such STOP USING IT. It makes two Issues, racism and Sexism the same issue when it is not as an alien Woman gets discriminated twice when in your notation it is only done once as a single policy.

Since we are talking about Sexism in the Empire rather then racism or Speciesism, your use of Alien example is a red herring as it has no bearing on the issue of Sexism in the Empire.

[Cao Cao]

By the way in the History Channel presentation on Star Wars, Lucas indicates that the reason we see no woman in the Empire is because they represent 'life' and the Empire stands for death. Lucas himself indicates that there is a policy of Misogyny in the Empire as well as Xenophobia. Truthfully Palpitine himself uses and uses up others as he sees fit.

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.
He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.

Note that in 20 years from the institiution of the Empire, there are no aliens seen in Any position of Authority anywhere on the Death Star. It is shown that the Highest ranks of the Empire is a Human only club as well and a Male only club.

And where are the aliens in the highest ranks of the Rebellion apart from on Mon Cal ships which only Mon Cals can use?

Non-human and glass ceiling are two different issues.

Also your making up nomenclature does NOT make it proper. You notation is not proper English as such STOP USING IT. It makes two Issues, racism and Sexism the same issue when it is not as an alien Woman gets discriminated twice when in your notation it is only done once as a single policy.

Since we are talking about Sexism in the Empire rather then racism or Speciesism, your use of Alien example is a red herring as it has no bearing on the issue of Sexism in the Empire.

It's not me that's making it up. "Non-huMan" is apparently a term from an Imperial sourcebook. Some EU author made it up. Not me. This is what makes both issues tied together, and why I can use both to discredit it.

[Isolder74]

FYI A Woman human is just as much a human and a male human.

A female Alien is a woman but she is also not human. A alien male is a man but is not human.

Discrimination against aliens DOES not affect the Female Human but it does affect the Female Alien.

Discrimination against females does not affect the Male Alien but alien bias does.

[Cao Cao]

Uh huh. Like Daala? And Varrscha? Major General Corvae? All cases of discrimination in the Imperial military, because all are EXPLICITLY STATED as unable to reach their ranks without unusual means due to discrimination FROM THE IMPERIAL PERSPECTIVE.

Which at least in one case is an excuse to cover for personal incompitence, and in the others can be put down to the innate cultural discrimination.

Indeed it does refer to aliens, but I am NOT arguing that point, they are NOT relevant to a discussion about women. You have been told multiple times now to stop bringing in Red Herrings to disguise the fact you've presented no evidence AT ALL so far, apart from an 'analogy' which is pretty weak and has been countered, and your own reasoning, which is worthless and proves nothing.

You're full of shit. I don't care if you don't like it. It's not a red herring. Non-huMan is a policy of discrimination against women AND aliens. If both can be discredited then this is not a red herring. Live with it.

DOh, please do. Make the comparison that in the EU there are an equal number of women in the Rebellion/NR to the Empire, which was the point I was disproving. It'll be hilarious.

I'm referring to the movies, genius.

As per the rules of canon. Sources must be reconciled if they can be. As there is nothing about these examples careers, the other EU evidence comes into play and states they were discriminated against. This is not contradicted, and stands. As for the examples who aren't high ranked enough, you're suggesting that a few TIE pilots in any way prove there was no discrimination? Are you genuinely retarded? Individuals can't be discriminated against when being promoted if THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PROMOTED AT ALL. Various examples of pilots, junior officers etc all fit in easily with the discriminatory policies, it's only officers of any high rank (post-rank and above, obviously) that might contradict this.

Hey dipshit. Am I saying there's no discrimination? No. Am I saying there is no policy of discrimination? Yes.

It's called RECONCILIATION. To avoid the entire Star Wars universe tearing itself apart because every single goddamn source conflicts with every other one, sources have to be reconciled with each other. Force sensitivity EXPLAINS why this officer held the rank of Colonel in a discriminatory military.

It explains it because you reach the conclusion before the debate. You're making things fit into your view so you can reject evidence against your case.

1. Stop the herring tactics right now, it's fucking offensive.

Fuck off, idiot. It's not a red herring until you drop non-huMan.

2. No, the evidence (which, by the way, you have none of) shows that these officers have factors which explain their rise in a discriminatory military.

Which is neither certain, nor proof of deliberate policy.

Go. Fuck. Yourself.

I have repeatedly stated in several different posts, which you have already acknowledged, that I am NOT saying Intelligence operatives do not count. I dealt with the examples in exactly the same way as the others. I SUGGESTED that in my personal opinion there will be a difference in the application of the discriminatory policies because Intel needs women, NOT that they are non-military.

You're a lying jackass.

Chyler: ISB operative. No contradiction.

Izbela Saarrj: Lieutenant, ISB. No contradiction.

Elena Shelvay: ISB operative. No contradiction.

The site itself defines Intelligence as seperate to the military. I'm not sure to put it in the same camp exactly, but I'm not going to argue the point. Nevertheless, you'd expect there to be many lower lever female Intelligence operatives for obvious reasons.

Ysanne Isard: Director, Imperial Intelligence. No military rank, no promotion through the CoC, placed in her position first by her father, then by the Emperor. I maintain there's no contradiction: her position is easily reconciled, and repeated references are made to how unusual it is that she's a woman in a high position.

Rasha Bex: Captain, Intelligence. No conflict (What is the conversion for an Intelligence captain to navy? Lieutenant Commander?)

Jessa Dajus: Intelligence Colonel, force sensitive, already cited. No conflict.

Erisi Dlarit: Intelligence operative, unknown rank, Squadron Leader in Thyferran Home Defense Corps. No conflict.

Grania: Intelligence operative, unknown rank. No conflict.

You repeatedly claim that Intelligence officers present no conflict with the idea of a discriminatory policy and thus didn't count. The specifics are irrelevant. And if it's your personal opinion, then that's not evidence and they DO indeed count.

Oh, the available evidence, yeah? That available evidence, of which you have none of, yeah? That available evidence, which for you consists of 'there are only a few women in the Alliance on-screen'? Which proves ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING?

Which just happens to be more than what you have you pretentious oik.

Congratulations, you've just be anal raped by the EU evidence! This conclusion is proved utterly wrong by the ENTIRE FUCKING EU! Take your movie purist bullshit and go elsewhere.

Referring to the movies does not make one a movie purist. Besides which, the entire EU which also shows a significant number of female Imperial military personnel. Oops! You lose!

Once again, I'm forced to repeat those words of great wisdom.

GO FUCK YOURSELF.

Stop strawmanning my argument right the fuck now. I have, at no point, stated that Intelligence should be discounted. I have suggested that I, personally, am unconvinced exactly the same legislation applies, but I am NOT arguing that point. You have already acknowledged this, and bringing it into this argument again is fucking offensive.

It's not my fault if you're a liar. Go read your posts again then get a clue.

Then get the fuck out of this thread and start another one on discrimination against aliens, because that is NOT what this is about.

Then drop the whole Non-huMan thing right now. Drop it or shut the fuck up about aliens not being relevant.

So you thought you'd just ignore the patently obvious evidence for this policy on the form of Non-huMan then? Cos it's inconvenient and you don't like it?

Ironic coming from you when you just said aliens have nothing to do with this debate. Yet you invoke Non-huMan again!

So that justifies wiping out the entire fucking race then does it? Is there a passage in this 'constitution' that says 'in the event of treason, blow the motherfuckers to hell, and anyone near them, and anyone near them too'? The Empire does whatever the fuck it wants, the constitution is a sham.

Because, you know, a state that's technically AT WAR with the Empire deserves full Imperial rights.

No, its the totalitarian Empire, they blow planets up, commit genocide, persecute religious and ethnic minorites, enslave entire races...

So you're saying then that it is utterly impossible for a totalitarian government to contravene it's own laws? That's patent bullshit and you know it.

I'm saying you have no proof that they contravened their own laws in this case, apart from wishful thinking.

FYI A Woman human is just as much a human and a male human.

A female Alien is a woman but she is also not human. A alien male is a man but is not human.

Discrimination against aliens DOES not affect the Female Human but it does affect the Female Alien.

Discrimination against females does not affect the Male Alien but alien bias does.

Look, take it up with the EU author who came up with "Non-huMan". Not me. I'm not going to debate the logic of the policy when I don't even consider it canon.

[Isolder74]

By the way in the History Channel presentation on Star Wars, Lucas indicates that the reason we see no woman in the Empire is because they represent 'life' and the Empire stands for death. Lucas himself indicates that there is a policy of Misogyny in the Empire as well as Xenophobia. Truthfully Palpitine himself uses and uses up others as he sees fit.

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.
He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.

Note that in 20 years from the institiution of the Empire, there are no aliens seen in Any position of Authority anywhere on the Death Star. It is shown that the Highest ranks of the Empire is a Human only club as well and a Male only club.

And where are the aliens in the highest ranks of the Rebellion apart from on Mon Cal ships which only Mon Cals can use?

Non-human and glass ceiling are two different issues.

Also your making up nomenclature does NOT make it proper. You notation is not proper English as such STOP USING IT. It makes two Issues, racism and Sexism the same issue when it is not as an alien Woman gets discriminated twice when in your notation it is only done once as a single policy.

Since we are talking about Sexism in the Empire rather then racism or Speciesism, your use of Alien example is a red herring as it has no bearing on the issue of Sexism in the Empire.

It's not me that's making it up. "Non-huMan" is apparently a term from an Imperial sourcebook. Some EU author made it up. Not me. This is what makes both issues tied together, and why I can use both to discredit it.

You still can not use aliens to discredit a policy against women unless they also happen to be female as well in an effort to discredit a policy of discrimination just because you want to as the male alien is not a female so has no bearing on the issue of female discrimination.

The issues may be linked in your mind's eye but showing aliens, and we know of Sullustian pilots in the Rebellion as we see some in the fighter uniform in the briefing. We have the Bothan Spies. In an alliance why wouldn't Mon Cals insist on crewing their own vessels? If you stepped on the deck of the HMS Warspite and noted that there are NO Americans on board the vessel as part of the crew that the British discriminate against Americans despite them being part of the same alliance. The same holds true of An American Aircraft carrier, pointing out the lack of Brazilians on the crew does not mean the the United States discriminates against Brazilians on their vessels.

If the Mon Cal designed build and manufactured the ships tell me why they wouldn't build them to be most comfortable to themselves? There is mentions in the novels of Sullustian Cruiser as part of the Fleet, which I might sermise contain Sullustian officers in the high command positions. They mentions Correllian Battleships. I'd bet that the Captains were Corellians.

[Lazarus]

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.
He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.What Tarkin did was immoral. But nobody's saying it was moral, we're saying it was legal. So Cao Cao, thought you'd just ignore my posts then, huh? 'If I don't counter it, it's not there! I'm not listening! I don't need evidence, supposition is fine!'

Mon Mothma was able to found the Rebellion BECAUSE SHE WAS A SENATOR. The fact that Leia inherited her position is irrelevant. The point is neither of their positions were given by the Rebellion itself.
Also, the fact that the Senate was dissolved has nothing to do with this.

I've lost why this point is even being debated, this thread is about discrimination IN THE IMPERIAL MILITARY. Neither of these people are in the Imperial military, so they're irrelevant.

Irrelevant. Once again, I'm debating against the existance of deliberate policy.

True, you are. And you have STILL not provided ANY evidence to counter Non-huMan, which is that deliberate policy. I said this to TC before, and I'll say it to you again: Ignoring this evidence does not make it go away. Counter Non-huMan with a source that shows it does not apply, or you lose. It's that fucking simple.

What?

As far as I can see Steel was making the point that both sides in this debate now seem to have acknowledged both the existence of discrimination, and the existence of a deliberate policy, on account of you haven't countered Non-huMan. I'm equally lost as to why you're still arguing, when you clearly don't have any evidence to support your points. All your arguments have been countered, and all your posts now consist of is flawed rebuttals.

The only thing it may suggest is that there is some degree of cultural discrimination. Not a policy.

Yet again, you're ignoring the NhM track, which IS that policy, obviously because your argument is utterly trashed by it.

Which has what to do with misogyny? That's right, nothing. Oops, red herring.

Oh how mature. 'He's doing it too mum!' He was talking about the Colonel, and the explanation for her rise to her rank, which is quite clearly relevant.

What reasons? "They're intelligence, no conflicts with my precious policy"? Whatever.

Stop it. Stop it right the fuck now. I've warned you several times about strawmanning my argument, and you've acknowledged it at least once.

I have. Repeatedly.

No, you really haven't. Show it again, then, because I'm pretty goddamn sure your evidence consists of some loose reasoning on your part and no actual evidence whatsoever.

Yes yes, it's all irrelevant because it's inconvenient for you.

No, it's irrelevant because it proves nothing whatsoever. Show your 'evidence', right now.

And where does it demonstrate that this discrimination is deliberate and unique to the Imperial military? Oh right, it doesn't.

This thread is about the Imperial military. Nothing else.

What Tarkin did was immoral. But nobody's saying it was moral, we're saying it was legal.

ROFL!!
Right, ok, so blowing up a planet and committing genocide are legal under this constitution, but discrimination against women isn't? LOL!!
Well at least you're providing some comic amusement...

I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS NO SEXISM/RACISM. I AM SAYING IT IS NOT DELIBERATE ON THE PART OF THE EMPIRE

Your argument is fucking slaughtered by the NhM track, and you have nothing to counter that with. You lose, fucktard.

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.
He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot your opinion overrides George Lucas...

He created Star Wars. What he says, IS. There were Geonosions on the DS? Apparently so. You can't seriously believe you can override George Lucas? He IS the fucking canon, retard.

And where are the aliens in the highest ranks of the Rebellion apart from on Mon Cal ships which only Mon Cals can use?

Like, you know, ALL OVER THE FUCKING EU!?!
Clearly you've never read any of it, because there's shitloads of high ranking alien officers in the NR.

[Cao Cao]

Referring to aliens does in fact discredit the existance of the overall policy. Why should we take a policy that doesn't do what it claims to as evidence?

As for the Mon Cals, my assertion is that they perhaps would not be so prominent in the Rebellion if not for providing their own ships, this isn't a question of segregation, rather one of "buying their way in" with ships the Rebels desperately need.

[Lazarus]

I'm referring to the movies, genius.

Oh right, well clearly you're rules of canon override Lucasfilm then? The EU stands when not contradicted, there are FUCKING SHITLOADS of women in the NR.

Hey dipshit. Am I saying there's no discrimination? No. Am I saying there is no policy of discrimination? Yes.

You're overidden by the NhM track. You lose.

Fuck off, idiot. It's not a red herring until you drop non-huMan.

Please listen to Isolder, he knows what he's talking about, you clearly don't.

You repeatedly claim that Intelligence officers present no conflict with the idea of a discriminatory policy and thus didn't count.

Yes, because they ARE ALL OF LOW RANK. This is EXACTLY the same policy I have applied to the rest of the examples.

Which just happens to be more than what you have you pretentious oik.

Present it. Now.

Referring to the movies does not make one a movie purist. Besides which, the entire EU which also shows a significant number of female Imperial military personnel. Oops! You lose!

Yeah? About a couple dozen I've already analysed? Of whom a mere handful of of high rank? Fuck off.

[Cao Cao]

Cao Cao, thought you'd just ignore my posts then, huh? 'If I don't counter it, it's not there! I'm not listening! I don't need evidence, supposition is fine!'

Or I just dealth with a shorter post first before tackling a big one. If you'll care to notice, I did address your post after.
Pay attention next time.

I've lost why this point is even being debated, this thread is about discrimination IN THE IMPERIAL MILITARY. Neither of these people are in the Imperial military, so they're irrelevant.

I was responding to the point that Leia and Mothma led the Rebellion.

True, you are. And you have STILL not provided ANY evidence to counter Non-huMan, which is that deliberate policy. I said this to TC before, and I'll say it to you again: Ignoring this evidence does not make it go away. Counter Non-huMan with a source that shows it does not apply, or you lose. It's that fucking simple.

Moron. You haven't proved it does apply. I have provided examples from the movies and EU that make Non-huMan redundant and unworkable. You simply dismiss all examples that counter it.

As far as I can see Steel was making the point that both sides in this debate now seem to have acknowledged both the existence of discrimination, and the existence of a deliberate policy, on account of you haven't countered Non-huMan. I'm equally lost as to why you're still arguing, when you clearly don't have any evidence to support your points. All your arguments have been countered, and all your posts now consist of is flawed rebuttals.

Ironic, considering this paragraph is all bluster, no substance.

Yet again, you're ignoring the NhM track, which IS that policy, obviously because your argument is utterly trashed by it.

And you're ignoring the fact that both the movies and EU discredit it.

Oh how mature. 'He's doing it too mum!' He was talking about the Colonel, and the explanation for her rise to her rank, which is quite clearly relevant.

It's an explanation if you assume there is a deliberate policy. But it proves NOTHING.

Stop it. Stop it right the fuck now. I've warned you several times about strawmanning my argument, and you've acknowledged it at least once.

Fuck you. Warn me? Who do you think you are, jackass?
You lied. I pointed out your lie already. Either debate honestly or shut the hell up.

No, you really haven't. Show it again, then, because I'm pretty goddamn sure your evidence consists of some loose reasoning on your part and no actual evidence whatsoever.

And all you have is "non-huMan" with no fucking evidence that it applies at all.

No, it's irrelevant because it proves nothing whatsoever. Show your 'evidence', right now.

I'm not doing your work for you, asshole. I provided examples from the movies, others provided examples from the EU.

This thread is about the Imperial military. Nothing else.

And? So? Therefore? My point is that discrimination endemic to culture doesn't equate to deliberate policy.

ROFL!!
Right, ok, so blowing up a planet and committing genocide are legal under this constitution, but discrimination against women isn't? LOL!!
Well at least you're providing some comic amusement...

Which part of "Alderaan commited treason" do you not understand?
You do realise actively supporting an armed organisation with the intent of toppling the government is an act of war, right?

Your argument is fucking slaughtered by the NhM track, and you have nothing to counter that with. You lose, fucktard.

Non-huMan is bullshit. And you're full of shit for not finding one shred of evidence to support it. Sorry, you lose.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot your opinion overrides George Lucas...

He created Star Wars. What he says, IS. There were Geonosions on the DS? Apparently so. You can't seriously believe you can override George Lucas? He IS the fucking canon, retard.

You will now show me all the Geonosians on the Death Star, then.

Like, you know, ALL OVER THE FUCKING EU!?!
Clearly you've never read any of it, because there's shitloads of high ranking alien officers in the NR.

Just as there are in the Empire. Oh but they all fought deliberate discrimination because Lazarus the All Knowing says so. Okay.

[Cao Cao]

Oh right, well clearly you're rules of canon override Lucasfilm then? The EU stands when not contradicted, there are FUCKING SHITLOADS of women in the NR.

And in the Empire. Oops! You lose again.

You're overidden by the NhM track. You lose.

NhM is overriden by common sense. Go fuck yourself.

Please listen to Isolder, he knows what he's talking about, you clearly don't.

Evasion. Drop Non-huMan or accept the aliens. Pick one.

Yes, because they ARE ALL OF LOW RANK. This is EXACTLY the same policy I have applied to the rest of the examples.

Colonel is a low rank now? And you yourself said several of them were of unknown rank.

Present it. Now.

Look for it. Or can you not even manage to do that?

Yeah? About a couple dozen I've already analysed? Of whom a mere handful of of high rank? Fuck off.

Analysed and rejected. Guess what? You don't get to arbitrarily decide that they don't count without any evidence, you arrogant little shit.

[Isolder74]

So you Know Grand Admiral Thrawn since he is male does not disprove that there is Sexism in the Empire BECAUSE he is male. Being Male, he still had to deal with a bias against him because he wasn't human but because of a sterling record of victories and loyalties the Emperor himself promoted him to Grand Admiral but only AFTER Zaarin turned traitor. So until a human Grand Admiral turned traitor did Thrawn get a chance to rise in rank till then he was merely a Vice Admiral.

For those who don't Like Daala she did show better tactical sense the Penellon.

[Warsie]

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.

in ANH? We know they did work withthe 'Great Weapon' and they were enslaved to work on the Death Star with the Wookiees but they were onboard at ANH?

Kind've reminds me of how many prisoners were on the DS when it blew up; especially given how Battlefront claims that the DS was filling up with Prisoners of various kinds.

He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.

I thought he did that as an out of universe joke.

[Cao Cao]

So you Know Grand Admiral Thrawn since he is male does not disprove that there is Sexism in the Empire BECAUSE he is male. Being Male, he still had to deal with a bias against him because he wasn't human but because of a sterling record of victories and loyalties the Emperor himself promoted him to Grand Admiral but only AFTER Zaarin turned traitor. So until a human Grand Admiral turned traitor did Thrawn get a chance to rise in rank till then he was merely a Vice Admiral.

For those who don't Like Daala she did show better tactical sense the Penellon.

Yes, but again. All it does is disprove "Non-huMan". That's all it needs to do, because that's all I'm arguing. This topic is about Imperial misogyny. A deliberate policy was pointed out, yet numerous EU examples of women and aliens disprove it, and only allude to cultural prejudice which has probably been there since the Republic, hence it is not Imperial misogyny.

Lucas also said that there were Geonosians on the Death Star in ANH.

in ANH? We know they did work withthe 'Great Weapon' and they were enslaved to work on the Death Star with the Wookiees but they were onboard at ANH?

Kind've reminds me of how many prisoners were on the DS when it blew up; especially given how Battlefront claims that the DS was filling up with Prisoners of various kinds.

As a joke in the AotC commentary, Lucas referred to a joke against ANH regarding Luke murdering millions of innocent contract workers.
Lucas said that the contract workers were in fact Geonosian hive bugs, so it was okay.

He also said the Stormtrooper in ANH inherited the bonk-your-head-on-a-bulkhead gene from Jango Fett.

I thought he did that as an out of universe joke.[/quote]

Of course it was. That's my point. Lucas makes out of universe jokes and explanations. He may not have put women in the Empire in the movies because they represent "life" (which is by the way, awfully silly of him) but that has no bearing on the in-universe Empire whatsoever.

[The Original Nex]

Obviously there is no official Imperial sanction of xenophobic and sexist policies, as both are expressly illegal under Imperial law. Note that species who saw exceptionally large numbers of their population enslaved, like Mon Cals and Wookiees had to be reclassified officially as non-sentient in order for their enslavement to be allowed (as "domestication"). Second, the Empire hardly enslaved only non-humans, numerous sources show humans being enslaved as well, so it's hardly a one way streak.

As far as women are concerned, they must be fairly common at the enlisted and low-ranked officers at least as far as the Pilot's Corps and/or Naval Aviators are concerned, there are also examples several higher ranking examples in the Navy, as well as in Governorships, Government, and other Military roles (Ysanne Isard was the DIRECTOR of Imperial Intelligence, and served as Regent to the Throne upon Pestage's deposment).

What appears to be the case is select de facto discrimination policies by certain Moffs, governors and members of the Imperial Court. While there is no sweeping Imperial policy of discrimination, but niether do the Emperor and Imperial policy makers put an end to more or less rogue policies put in place by Moffs in their given sectors, or Administrators at their Academies.

[Cao Cao]

What appears to be the case is select de facto discrimination policies by certain Moffs, governors and members of the Imperial Court. While there is no sweeping Imperial policy of discrimination, but niether do the Emperor and Imperial policy makers put an end to more or less rogue policies put in place by Moffs in their given sectors, or Administrators at their Academies.

That much is clear, and if prejudice is deep within the culture of the Empire and Republic before it, it's that much easier for the "old guard" to carry out individual policies of discrimination and harder for reformists to rock the boat. Palpatine especially is going to be more concerned about loyalty than outright obedience to the constitution. But this by no means shows a deliberate Imperial policy.

[Lazarus]

Or I just dealth with a shorter post first before tackling a big one. If you'll care to notice, I did address your post after.
Pay attention next time.

Sorry, missed it.

Moron. You haven't proved it does apply. I have provided examples from the movies and EU that make Non-huMan redundant and unworkable. You simply dismiss all examples that counter it.

You have, had you? And it's up to me to prove that the rules of canon apply, is it? I think we need a mod on this or something because this is ridiculous.

What examples are these then? There are FAR less women in the Empire than the NR. This is clear from EU evidence. Of those few there are, low ranking individuals in no way override discrimination. Of the mere handful of higher rank, most have other factors which can explain their position, and reconcile with Non-huMan and the other accounts of discrimination.

Non-huMan is NOT contradicted by the films- if anything, it is backed up by them. Therefore it stands. Simple rules of canon.

And you're ignoring the fact that both the movies and EU discredit it.

No, they don't. You have NEVER stated how it's supposedly overridden, beyond your loose reasoning (which proves NOTHING) and calling for me to provide YOUR evidence is pathetic.

It's an explanation if you assume there is a deliberate policy. But it proves NOTHING.

It wasn't an attempt to 'prove' something, Steel was simply reconciling the evidence.

You lied. I pointed out your lie already. Either debate honestly or shut the hell up.

I lied did I? In claiming what exactly? Your erroneus claim I negated those Intelligence operates because they were Intel, not because of their low rank?

And all you have is "non-huMan" with no fucking evidence that it applies at all.

THE RULES OF FUCKING CANON STATE IT APPLIES.
It is EU evidence. It is not contradicted by a higher canon. It applies. That's the simple facts.

I'm not doing your work for you, asshole. I provided examples from the movies, others provided examples from the EU.

Examples from the EU already dealt with, as I have stated several times. If you want to argue with my analysis, go right ahead, so me that one of those examples shows there's no discrimination.
Examples from the movies? All those examples of women in the Empire in the films? Or your 'analogy' that because there aren't many women shown in the Alliance, there can't possibly be any discriminatory policy in the Empire?

You do realise actively supporting an armed organisation with the intent of toppling the government is an act of war, right?

The point I'm making here isn't that that action was illegal, it was that it doesn't matter, because the Empire does whatever it wants, constitution or no.

Non-huMan is bullshit. And you're full of shit for not finding one shred of evidence to support it.

LOL!! So I need to support the rules of canon do I? Non-huMan stands, as per the rules of canon.

You will now show me all the Geonosians on the Death Star, then.

Oh right yeah, cos we saw ALL of the DS's occupants did we? If GL says it is, it fucking IS. End of.

Just as there are in the Empire

Jesus christ, that list is ALL OF THEM! Of which about ten are high ranking! There are HUNDREDS of women in the NR.

NhM is overriden by common sense.

Whose, yours? Bullshit, you can't negate the rules of canon on your own 'reasoning'.

Evasion. Drop Non-huMan or accept the aliens.

That's not the way it works, as Isolder has pointed out. Non-huMan doesn't have to be proven to apply by me, YOU have to prove it DOESN't. Which you haven't.

Colonel is a low rank now? And you yourself said several of them were of unknown rank.

No, the Colonel is force sensitive, which reconciles it with the other evidence and Non-huMan.

Analysed and rejected. Guess what? You don't get to arbitrarily decide that they don't count without any evidence, you arrogant little shit.

No, I get to reject them if they are:
1. Of low rank
2. Have circumstances which reconcile them with the existing evidence.

So I'm arrogant? You, who say you override George Lucas? Brilliant.

[Lazarus]

Obviously there is no official Imperial sanction of xenophobic and sexist policies, as both are expressly illegal under Imperial law. Note that species who saw exceptionally large numbers of their population enslaved, like Mon Cals and Wookiees had to be reclassified officially as non-sentient in order for their enslavement to be allowed (as "domestication").

Right, so the Empire could reclassify species to get round it's supposed 'equal rights', but isn't capable of a policy of discrimination? Doesn't make sense, and either way, it doesn't override Non-huMan. As I've said before, I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion that there was non-institutional discrimination, but I'm arguing this point because I believe this evidence indicates a policy. Until someone overrides this evidence, which no one yet has, I fail to see how this assertion is incorrect.

[Cao Cao]

You have, had you? And it's up to me to prove that the rules of canon apply, is it? I think we need a mod on this or something because this is ridiculous.

What examples are these then? There are FAR less women in the Empire than the NR. This is clear from EU evidence. Of those few there are, low ranking individuals in no way override discrimination. Of the mere handful of higher rank, most have other factors which can explain their position, and reconcile with Non-huMan and the other accounts of discrimination.

They reconcile with cultural and individual policies of discrimination, not Non-huMan.

Non-huMan is NOT contradicted by the films- if anything, it is backed up by them. Therefore it stands. Simple rules of canon.

Non-huMan is discredited by simple casual observation of the movies that depict no high-ranked or front-line combat females in the Rebellion. Which would not be the case if there was a deliberate, Empire-wide policy.
Whether you like it or not, it WOULD be a recruiting point for the Rebellion *if* this discrimination were a specific Imperial doctrine.

No, they don't. You have NEVER stated how it's supposedly overridden, beyond your loose reasoning (which proves NOTHING) and calling for me to provide YOUR evidence is pathetic.

I have, and my reasoning is as valid as the reasoning used to reject 3 million clones.

It wasn't an attempt to 'prove' something, Steel was simply reconciling the evidence.

Which is irrelevant since non-huMan hasn't been proven. I will not reconcile facts with one erroneous source.

I lied did I? In claiming what exactly? Your erroneus claim I negated those Intelligence operates because they were Intel, not because of their low rank?

How the flying fuck do you dismiss a person because of their low rank when their rank is not stated? Do you even read what you type?

THE RULES OF FUCKING CANON STATE IT APPLIES.
It is EU evidence. It is not contradicted by a higher canon. It applies. That's the simple facts.

Then again, so do 3 million clones.

Examples from the EU already dealt with, as I have stated several times. If you want to argue with my analysis, go right ahead, so me that one of those examples shows there's no discrimination.

Bullshit. You haven't dealt with them at all.

Examples from the movies? All those examples of women in the Empire in the films? Or your 'analogy' that because there aren't many women shown in the Alliance, there can't possibly be any discriminatory policy in the Empire?

There can't be a deliberate, Empire-wide policy, no. The Empire is only 20 years or so old. That's enough time for older citizens to remember the Republic, remember a time of no deliberate oppression of females and aliens if this were an Imperial specific policy. Enough time for them to tell the younger generation. Enough time for that generation to rise up and fight their oppressors.

The point I'm making here isn't that that action was illegal, it was that it doesn't matter, because the Empire does whatever it wants, constitution or no.

Which you have not proved, since destroying Alderaan was legal.
You need to prove that the Empire does illegal things when it wants. Saying that Alderaan was destroyed because the Empire does what it wants is circular logic.

LOL!! So I need to support the rules of canon do I? Non-huMan stands, as per the rules of canon.

Unless contradicted by the movies and logical extrapolations made from the movies.

Oh right yeah, cos we saw ALL of the DS's occupants did we? If GL says it is, it fucking IS. End of.

Bullshit. You're defending out-of-universe jokes as canon.

Jesus christ, that list is ALL OF THEM! Of which about ten are high ranking! There are HUNDREDS of women in the NR.

Which when listed come to around a similar size, dipshit.

Whose, yours? Bullshit, you can't negate the rules of canon on your own 'reasoning'.

Then 3 million clones stand.

That's not the way it works, as Isolder has pointed out. Non-huMan doesn't have to be proven to apply by me, YOU have to prove it DOESN't. Which you haven't.

Another evasion. You keep claiming the aliens are a red herring. I'm saying they're not until non-huMan is dropped. This specific argument isn't about it's canonicity, it's simply the fact that if you don't like alien related examples, then stop bringing up non-huMan.

No, the Colonel is force sensitive, which reconciles it with the other evidence and Non-huMan.

It only reconciles if you assume Non-huMan is correct.

No, I get to reject them if they are:
1. Of low rank
2. Have circumstances which reconcile them with the existing evidence.

As determined by you as the only reasons. And with the assumption that non-huMan is legitimate.

So I'm arrogant? You, who say you override George Lucas? Brilliant.

I say George Lucas' jokes do not have much in-universe merit. Do you seriously say they do?

[Isolder74]

Did you not notice that Thrawn was a Vice Admiral, a rank below the Woman Daala?

This shows a worse policy against Aliens then against women.

Also Bin Essada, an Imperial governer, is noted to have altered his appearance to make himself look human. That is a lot of effort if there was no policy based bias against aliens in the Empire for someone to take the time to actually surgically pose as a human to avoid it.

Daala States HERSELF that she was only promoted because she caught the attention of a very high ranking person in the Empire, non other the Tarkin, who promoted her based on test results alone then he placed her in nowhere of a post in a hidden base no one knows about so after that point her career was pretty much dead. Not the greatest job. Tarkin did place her in charge of his pet project in the Maw but that was it.

The EU shows us the policy against promoting women in the Empire but also shows us some women that rose above that by various means that are not part of the normal chain of command.

If you want to be a Movie Purist we have to conclude that the Empire does not recruit women or aliens at all.

Its obvious from the films that the Rebels do accept both into their ranks and gives them high positions in their military. Did it escape you that Ackbar was overall commander of the entire Alliance Fleet at Endor even the Non Mon Cal ships.

Vice Admiral-->Thrawn(alien) much better officer then Daala
Admiral-->Daala(Human Woman) Higher ranked then Thrawn til Thrawn is part of effort to save Palpatine himself. Then it is his highness that Promotes Thrawn in secret.

[Cao Cao]

Did you not notice that Thrawn was a Vice Admiral, a rank below the Woman Daala?

This shows a worse policy against Aliens then against women.

Which indicates an inconsistant policy. Which would suggest personal bias and/or cultural prejudice. Not an Empire-wide policy.

Also Bin Essada, an Imperial governer, is noted to have altered his appearance to make himself look human. That is a lot of effort if there was no policy based bias against aliens in the Empire for someone to take the time to actually surgically pose as a human to avoid it.

Daala States HERSELF that she was only promoted because she caught the attention of a very high ranking person in the Empire, non other the Tarkin, who promoted her based on test results alone then he placed her in nowhere of a post in a hidden base no one knows about so after that point her career was pretty much dead. Not the greatest job. Tarkin did place her in charge of his pet project in the Maw but that was it.

The EU shows us the policy against promoting women in the Empire but also shows us some women that rose above that by various means that are not part of the normal chain of command.

Again, this does not indicate a deliberate policy.

Its obvious from the films that the Rebels do accept both into their ranks and gives them high positions in their military. Did it escape you that Ackbar was overall commander of the entire Alliance Fleet at Endor even the Non Mon Cal ships.

Ackbar just happens to come with the best damn ships the Rebels hope to have. From cruisers to Star Dreadnoughts. The Rebels simply have little choice. If the Mon Cals pack up and leave.. what are they going to do? Assault the Empire with Nebulon-Bs?
Edit: Obviously I'm exagerrating somewhat, but the fact remains the Mon Cals represent an extremely valuable resource who the Rebels would dearly want to butter up any way they could.

[Lazarus]

I have, and my reasoning is as valid as the reasoning used to reject 3 million clones.

No, it really isn't. As far as I got it, your assertion is:
'There is the same lack of women in the Rebellion, and consequently, discrimination applies across the galaxy. Therefore, it isn't purely Imperial in nature, and (somehow) as a result of that, Non-huMan doesn't apply'

Honestly, am I right? Is this your argument? Please clarify in a single statement, as I have done, if it's not.

[The Original Nex]

Obviously there is no official Imperial sanction of xenophobic and sexist policies, as both are expressly illegal under Imperial law. Note that species who saw exceptionally large numbers of their population enslaved, like Mon Cals and Wookiees had to be reclassified officially as non-sentient in order for their enslavement to be allowed (as "domestication").

Right, so the Empire could reclassify species to get round it's supposed 'equal rights', but isn't capable of a policy of discrimination? Doesn't make sense, and either way, it doesn't override Non-huMan. As I've said before, I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion that there was non-institutional discrimination, but I'm arguing this point because I believe this evidence indicates a policy. Until someone overrides this evidence, which no one yet has, I fail to see how this assertion is incorrect.

It had to reclassify in order to get around the law. And note that it appears they could only get away with doing this to relatively obscure species who most of the galaxy has never encountered. The mere fact that Isard was able to consolidate control of the Empire shows there was no official policy against women, as she she could have lost support and been removed by virtue of being a woman. There is no evidence for a state policy. What there is evidence for, is certain officials doing what they please is violation of the law, and with those who have the power to do something about it not bothering.

[TC Pilot]

So what you're saying is that if a SINGLE MEMBER of a particular world's population commits treason, then the Empire can revoke all rights from the entire world? Great, fits in nicely with my point.

No, I'm saying that by following your logic of one Grand Moff going on a rampage holds the entire Empire accountable for his actions (which it doesn't), Alderaan must be held accountable for both Organas' treason.

Oh wait. Yes it can. Caamas anyone? Milagro?

The Imperials bombarded Caamas for the Jedi Temple and the Caamasi refusal to accept the New Order. And Milagro had fallen to the New Republic before the Empire BDZed it.

I'm not talking about 'on a whim', that they can do it AT ALL shows they don't play by any rules, least of all their own, which they can break when it suits them.

That's ridiculous. Any government with any constitution can do whatever it wants if it so chooses. It's just a piece of paper. Police could swoop into your house in the middle of the night, vaporize your family, and throw you into the Tower of London for hourly sodomy sessions and get away with it.

But the fact the Imperial Charter grants all Imperial citizens equal rights, and thus equality under the law, there can't be an institutional discriminatory policy against women.

If you don't understand that now, there's nothing left for me to say.

The Empire doesn't give a shit what's in the constitution.

Yes, and everyone who joined the Empire was a psychopathic monster, not partiotic citizens wanting to restore peace and order to a galaxy almost torn apart by anarchy and corruption.

No, but there's no reason why this would be the ONLY option. Do you seriously think that when the NhM track was established, someone was going to go up to the High Command and say 'Guys, you can't do that, it's in the constitution!'

I doubt it was ever "established" in any form other than an agreement between Core World officers to unofficially deprive women.

Minus Major Arhul Hextrophon's sarcasm, it shows that the Empire grants equal rights to loyal Imperial citizens. Therefore, there simply can't be an institutional policy of misogyny against females, even in the military, without it violating the law.

Except clearly these rights don't include right to a fair trial, right to religious freedom, right to freedom from persecution, habeus corpus, or anything else you'd expect from a Bill of Rights, so why exactly is it that you say this PROVES that there's no discrimination?

Those rights you listed are completely irrelevant. It does say all sentients equally enjoy what rights it is they're given. That's the point.

Oh noes! Can't be breakin the lawz! For the love of God, IT'S THE EMPIRE! IT DOES WHATEVER THE HELL IT WANTS!

Any government anywhere could do whatever the hell it wanted to, constitution or no. And if the constitution doesn't matter, than your "policy" of NonhuMan means nothing as well. The Empire does what it wants.

But that just makes this debate pointless.

That's nice. I'm happy for you. Pity that interpretation contradicts the quote then isn't it? Stop pulling the 'she was forceful! that was bad!' crap, it is stated that she HAD to be forceful TO FIGHT THE DISCRIMINATION.

Which, if you bothered, doesn't make sense the way you interpret it.

Again, the constitution says all Imperial citizens have equal rights. Therefore, there cannot be an institutional bias against women. It's just that simple.