Christian Fundamentalism: A question.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2007-06-01 07:40pm

I have a question.

If someone is a Christian Fundamentalist, and he says Satan definitely exists, and his reasoning is faith, would it be unreasonable also to assume that it's likely he should believe or have no problem believing that God exists too based on faith? I mean, I don't see how one can be C. Fundamentalist, believe in Satan, but not believe in God by default. They seem like an axis of integral units to a Christian Fundamentalist

Someone is telling me that, assuming he's a Fundamentalist Christian, his belief in Satan on faith doesn't impy that it's likely he believes in God. But aren't they linked to the fundamentalist conception of doctrine?

Trajanus · Post by **Trajanus** » 2007-06-01 07:46pm

Satan is part of the Christian mythology. He can't justify believing in Satan and not God.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2007-06-01 07:46pm

WHAT!?

Christian Fundamentalism without God!?

I... umm... uhhh... KEYMONA!? *head go 'splody*

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-06-01 09:49pm

As a devout Christian I, for one, would love to hear an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God. I'm pretty sure it can't be done without raping some of the finer points of reason.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2007-06-01 10:01pm

I don't get it either. It was originally a discussion about faith wherein I mentioned that, if someone is prepared to say Satan is really alive and exists, and if that person's a Fundamentalist Christian, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that person should believe (or at least be able to believe) in God/Heaven on faith. It doesn't seem like there would be anything externally objective stopping them. They both require faith and are pretty implausible figures.

My reasoning, and it might be flawed, is that if one is a Christian Fundamentalist, then one certainly should believe at least in God. Since he's Fundamentalist, I assume he believes in the general mythos of Satan, God, and Satan's function in the fall of man. I don't see how you can have Satan, but not have that faith in Satan's existence imply you have faith in God, being said Christian.

They seem like beings who rest on the same axis, like Ahuramazda and his counterpart or like ying and yang. He's essentially telling me that fundamentalist belief in Satan doesn't imply belief in God.

I admit it. I don't get it.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-06-01 10:04pm

If someone believes in Satan and not God, they may be a fundamentalist of some sort, but they fail to meet the requirements of being a Christian.

Trajanus · Post by **Trajanus** » 2007-06-01 10:14pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:If someone believes in Satan and not God, they may be a fundamentalist of some sort, but they fail to meet the requirements of being a Christian.

Only Judeo-Christians call the devil "Satan" and believe in him as a real being. Satanists and other non-Abrahamic faiths believe in him as the embodiment of an idea (ie-not a real independent being) and Muslims call him "Iblis." So, it's pretty safe to say the guy's a Christian.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2007-06-01 10:22pm

Oh, he claims to be a Christian, which is why I found it so Bizarre.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2007-06-01 11:30pm

That makes so little sense that wihout any other information, I suspect he's just fucking with you.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2007-06-01 11:46pm

Trajanus wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:If someone believes in Satan and not God, they may be a fundamentalist of some sort, but they fail to meet the requirements of being a Christian.
Only Judeo-Christians call the devil "Satan" and believe in him as a real being. Satanists and other non-Abrahamic faiths believe in him as the embodiment of an idea (ie-not a real independent being) and Muslims call him "Iblis." So, it's pretty safe to say the guy's a Christian.

Well actually some Satanist DO indeed believe in a real honest to goodness (or badness if you prefer) Satan.

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2007-06-02 02:22am

Invictus ChiKen wrote:Well actually some Satanist DO indeed believe in a real honest to goodness (or badness if you prefer) Satan.

Naturally they have utter contempt for the LeVay crowd, and vice-versa. It never seems to come to a shoot-out though, so they're doing better than some fragmented religions.

On Topic: So wait, he believes in the Judeo-Christian God, but he claims that a hypothetical third party who does not believe in the J-C G could still be confident in the existence of Satan? Could this be some kind of "Every Atheist Is A Stealth Satanist" knee-jerk?

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2007-06-02 06:53am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:As a devout Christian I, for one, would love to hear an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God. I'm pretty sure it can't be done without raping some of the finer points of reason.

How about someone who believes that the universe, being a nasty place, is ruled by Satan and God is a Satanic lie to give people false hope ? When we die, he laughs at us for being fooled, and everybody goes to Hell.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2007-06-02 11:24am

Maybe he means that other fundies think they believe in God, but really believe in Satan...

Of course you can't fucking be a Christian fundamentalist without believing in God. If you think God is just a trick by Satan, then you're not a Christian fundie because that's really not what the Bible says.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2007-06-02 02:48pm

It's not that he thinks God is a trick by Satan, and I know he believes in God, because he has said it before. He's just trying to tell me that a Christian Fundamentalist who says Satan exists doesn't necessarily believe in God as an implication from his belief in Satan's existence.

I don't see how you can be a Christian Fundamentalist and just ignore one or the other. It seems like Fundamental belief in the faith would tie both beings together. To do otherwise seems like you would be skipping a lot of the material, story, mythos, etc.

The second argument was that, if someone is prepared to belief X based on faith alone, there's nothing objective stopping him from also being able to believe Y on faith. For example, if I believe Satan exists only on faith, there would be no objective barrier to belief in something else fantastical.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-06-02 03:07pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:As a devout Christian I, for one, would love to hear an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God. I'm pretty sure it can't be done without raping some of the finer points of reason.
How about someone who believes that the universe, being a nasty place, is ruled by Satan and God is a Satanic lie to give people false hope ? When we die, he laughs at us for being fooled, and everybody goes to Hell.

Then he wouldn't be a Christian.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2007-06-02 03:17pm

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:It's not that he thinks God is a trick by Satan, and I know he believes in God, because he has said it before. He's just trying to tell me that a Christian Fundamentalist who says Satan exists doesn't necessarily believe in God as an implication from his belief in Satan's existence.

I don't see how you can be a Christian Fundamentalist and just ignore one or the other. It seems like Fundamental belief in the faith would tie both beings together. To do otherwise seems like you would be skipping a lot of the material, story, mythos, etc.

Indeed, though the fundamentalist would believe in God because he is, in fact, a fundamentalist, and not because he would also believe in Satan. So his reason for believing in God also implies that he believes in Satan.

The second argument was that, if someone is prepared to belief X based on faith alone, there's nothing objective stopping him from also being able to believe Y on faith. For example, if I believe Satan exists only on faith, there would be no objective barrier to belief in something else fantastical.

Well yes, if you believe one thing for no reason, it's also possible that you believe other things for no reason. I'm not sure what that argument is supposed to show

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2007-06-02 03:18pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Lord of the Abyss wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:As a devout Christian I, for one, would love to hear an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God. I'm pretty sure it can't be done without raping some of the finer points of reason.
How about someone who believes that the universe, being a nasty place, is ruled by Satan and God is a Satanic lie to give people false hope ? When we die, he laughs at us for being fooled, and everybody goes to Hell.
Then he wouldn't be a Christian.

No, but that's not what you said. You asked for "an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God"; my idea is just as logical as Christianity, if not more so. There's just as much hard evidence ( zero ), and you can take it on faith the same way as Christianity. "Satan made God up" is a perfectly logical statement in itself, once you grant that faith is a legitimate source of knowledge to begin with.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-06-02 04:19pm

Fair enough. I suppose I asked for it.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2007-06-02 05:29pm

The most likely position I can think of may be that while he takes Satan on faith, he takes God on 'proof'. Still a strange position.

defanatic · Post by **defanatic** » 2007-06-03 10:28am

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:As a devout Christian I, for one, would love to hear an explanation rationalizing the existence of Satan without God. I'm pretty sure it can't be done without raping some of the finer points of reason.
How about someone who believes that the universe, being a nasty place, is ruled by Satan and God is a Satanic lie to give people false hope ? When we die, he laughs at us for being fooled, and everybody goes to Hell.

While as likely as Christianity to be true (or not... It's irrelevant to my point), this hypothetical religion does not exist simply because it's depressing. That does severely hamper its popularity.