Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[Cao Cao]

I have, and my reasoning is as valid as the reasoning used to reject 3 million clones.

No, it really isn't. As far as I got it, your assertion is:
'There is the same lack of women in the Rebellion, and consequently, discrimination applies across the galaxy. Therefore, it isn't purely Imperial in nature, and (somehow) as a result of that, Non-huMan doesn't apply'

Honestly, am I right? Is this your argument? Please clarify in a single statement, as I have done, if it's not.

If you really want a one-liner, then I'm simply saying that the lack of women and aliens in prominent positions in the Empire and Rebellion (unless for special circumstances in both regimes) suggests a cultural bias that's existed since the days of the Republic.

The Empire would not create a specific anti-female policy because it wouldn't need to. Even if it could. But it's constitution forbids that anyway! So it's left up to personal bias, which is all that's supported in canon. And it shows that this bias exists on both sides.

[The Original Nex]

TC Pilot is right on the money here. As far as the Empire is concerned, discrimination against nonsentients and/or females is illegal. The law is very clear, and allows no room for an official policy of discrimination. What are we left with then? We are left with various Imperial officials blatantly throwing the law out the window to further their own prejudices, and the higher ups not bothering to do anything about it. That's not an official policy, that's a de facto policy that expressly violates Imperial law. But no one bothers to enforce the law, so the bigots and sexists get away with their violations. The policy is de facto, not de jure.

[Lazarus]

Ok, here's my statement. My argument relies upon Non-huMan. As far as I was aware, the established policy is as follows:

Rules of canon: EU evidence stands unless it is directly contradicted by film evidence.

The 3 million number could be discarded because there is evidence from the films that proves it's IMPOSSIBLE. There is, however, no film evidence that does anything of the kind for Non-huMan. That there are 'not very many women in the Rebellion' in no way proves that there cannot be a policy of discrimination against women in the Empire. The TOTAL lack of women within Imperial personnel backs it up.

So, Non-huMan stands. That is my understanding of the rules. As far as I can see, discarding Non-huMan based on no film evidence at all, and weak EU evidence (constitution) that can be reconciled by the fact that the Empire has been shown to ignore the constitution, is in contravention of the rules of canon.

The examples of Imperial personnel can be reconciled with Non-huMan, and don't contradict it. It still stands.

I fail to see, when it comes down to hard evidence, how this simple statement of facts can be gotten round. If, in fact, the rules are not actually the rules at all, and the personal opinions and reasoning of random people can override said evidence (which, honestly, the case against this comes down to) without any actual hard evidence of their own (unlike the 3 million case), then this goes a long way beyond this debate.

[Cao Cao]

Exactly what evidence from the movies makes 3 million clones impossible?
We extrapolate that it is impossible because of how a galactic war would work. Just as others extrapolate that it's redundant and illegal for the Empire to institute a policy of deliberate discrimination.

[The Original Nex]

And how do you get around the fact that Imperial law is such that there CANNOT be a "Non-HuMan" official policy. TC Pilot and myself have both displayed why this is. Do you deny it?

[Batman]

So much for me not wanting to get into this.

I have, and my reasoning is as valid as the reasoning used to reject 3 million clones.

No, it really isn't. As far as I got it, your assertion is:
'There is the same lack of women in the Rebellion, and consequently, discrimination applies across the galaxy. Therefore, it isn't purely Imperial in nature, and (somehow) as a result of that, Non-huMan doesn't apply'
Honestly, am I right? Is this your argument? Please clarify in a single statement, as I have done, if it's not.

If you really want a one-liner, then I'm simply saying that the lack of women and aliens in prominent positions in the Empire and Rebellion (unless for special circumstances in both regimes) suggests a cultural bias that's existed since the days of the Republic.
The Empire would not create a specific anti-female policy because it wouldn't need to. Even if it could.

The canon fact of such a policy existing notwithstanding, apparently.

But it's constitution forbids that anyway!

Which has what, exactly, to do with wether or not the military doing so?
I hate to tell you but the US Military did NOT (to this day probably STILL doesn't except on paper) treat female recruits equally for DECADES (no serving in front-line units anyone?) despite having the equal rights thing.
Civilian rights do NOT neccessarily translate to the military.

So it's left up to personal bias, which is all that's supported in canon. And it shows that this bias exists on both sides.

Actually the EU says there is an OFFICIAL POLICY of doing so which is NOT contradicted by the higher canon, which Lazarus has pointed out only like a hundred times or so.

[Batman]

And how do you get around the fact that Imperial law is such that there CANNOT be a "Non-HuMan" official policy. TC Pilot and myself have both displayed why this is. Do you deny it?

You gotta be fucking kidding me.
1. The EU explicitely states there IS such a policy.
2. Law that guarantees rights to civilians is regularly thwarted in the real world. I point you to The US armed forces take on dealing with gays, and until recently with females. Members of the military do NOT enjoy the full set of rights a civilian would.

[Lazarus]

Jesus christ, thank you Batman!

Exactly the point I'm making.

[Batman]

Exactly what evidence from the movies makes 3 million clones impossible?

Technically, there isn't any.

We extrapolate that it is impossible because of how a galactic war would work.

NO WE DO NOT. We complain that that would be the case but unless and until we have actual EVIDENCE that there were more than 3 million clones, WE ACCEPT IT for the time being in a vs scenario. Stupid or not EU numbers stand unless overridden by higher canon.

Just as others extrapolate that it's redundant and illegal for the Empire to institute a policy of deliberate discrimination.

except we have CANON EVIDENCE for them instituting said policy and NOTHING overriding it in higher canon.

[Batman]

Jesus christ, thank you Batman!
Exactly the point I'm making.

I DO aim to please. On occasion.

[Cao Cao]

NO WE DO NOT. We complain that that would be the case but unless and until we have actual EVIDENCE that there were more than 3 million clones, WE ACCEPT IT for the time being in a vs scenario. Stupid or not EU numbers stand unless overridden by higher canon.

Bullshit. I've not seen anyone seriously use 3 million clones as a benchmark in any vs. scenario due to it being completely ridiculous.

except we have CANON EVIDENCE for them instituting said policy and NOTHING overriding it in higher canon.

We have canon evidence of certain amounts of inconsistantly applied discrimination. There is nothing that indicates an Empire-wide policy and plenty that discredits it.

[Lazarus]

We have canon evidence of certain amounts of inconsistantly applied discrimination. There is nothing that indicates an Empire-wide policy and plenty that discredits it.

It's called Non-huMan. It's canon. It's disproves your argument, as I've said god knows how many times already.

You CANNOT contravene the rules of canon with your own opinion. Consequently, there IS a policy of discrimination in the Imperial military.

[Cao Cao]

It's called Non-huMan. It's canon. It's disproves your argument, as I've said god knows how many times already.

You CANNOT contravene the rules of canon with your own opinion. Consequently, there IS a policy of discrimination in the Imperial military.

Don't waste my time with circular logic please. People have stated repeatedly why an overall policy of discrimination makes no sense. Why don't have to accept one discredited source that says it exists no matter how many times you repeat it.

[Steel]

It's called Non-huMan. It's canon. It's disproves your argument, as I've said god knows how many times already.

You CANNOT contravene the rules of canon with your own opinion. Consequently, there IS a policy of discrimination in the Imperial military.

Don't waste my time with circular logic please. People have stated repeatedly why an overall policy of discrimination makes no sense. Why don't have to accept one discredited source that says it exists no matter how many times you repeat it.

Discrimination in and of itself makes no sense. Discrimination based on gender race etc is not a logical thing to do in any situation. If someone has equal ability and effectiveness at a certain task then they should be allowed to perform the task and rewarded the same as anyone else.

You already say that there is an empire (and SW galaxy) wide universal policy of discrimation, yes?

If this is so, then please explain how you recincile this with the fact that you say all imperial citizens are granted equal rights. As you seem to be saying on the one hand that there could not possibly be discrimination due to the constitution, and on the other that there is discrimination everywhere.

You are the one using contradictory 'logic' here.

[Lazarus]

Don't waste my time with circular logic please. People have stated repeatedly why an overall policy of discrimination makes no sense. Why don't have to accept one discredited source that says it exists no matter how many times you repeat it.

Don't waste MY time with your consistent erroneus claims that your reasoning outweighs the rules of canon. It doesn't fucking matter whether you think it makes sense or not, it canonically exists. Apparently you find this concept incredibly difficult to grasp, despite the fact it has been stated to you by several people now.

The rules of canon overrule you. The NhM track is canon, whether you think it makes sense or not counts for absolutely jack shit. A policy of discrimination in the Imperial military is stated in the EU, and not contradicted by the films. Therefore, there is discrimination in the Imperial military. Evidence and conclusion. Former proves the latter.

[Cao Cao]

Don't waste MY time with your consistent erroneus claims that your reasoning outweighs the rules of canon. It doesn't fucking matter whether you think it makes sense or not, it canonically exists. Apparently you find this concept incredibly difficult to grasp, despite the fact it has been stated to you by several people now.

What YOU don't seem to grasp is that it may canonically exist, but then so do 3 million clones and the Executor nearly bankrupting the Empire.
Neither of those is contradicted in the movies. Show me where in the movies it says there are more than 3 million clones. Show me where it says the Executor didn't nearly bankrupt it's makers.

Maybe you just need to accept that many things in the EU don't stand up to close scrutiny.

The rules of canon overrule you. The NhM track is canon, whether you think it makes sense or not counts for absolutely jack shit. A policy of discrimination in the Imperial military is stated in the EU, and not contradicted by the films. Therefore, there is discrimination in the Imperial military. Evidence and conclusion. Former proves the latter.

You know full well that my point is that the films do discredit non-huMan.

[Batman]

except we have CANON EVIDENCE for them instituting said policy and NOTHING overriding it in higher canon.

We have canon evidence of certain amounts of inconsistantly applied discrimination.

There is EXPLICIT CANON EVIDENCE of discrimination in the imperial military. Namely, NonHuMan.

There is nothing that indicates an Empire-wide policy and plenty that discredits it.

A pity Lazarus didn't argue that. His position has consistently been that the MILITARY was discriminated against women. Which is discredited by NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

[Batman]

It's called Non-huMan. It's canon. It's disproves your argument, as I've said god knows how many times already.
You CANNOT contravene the rules of canon with your own opinion. Consequently, there IS a policy of discrimination in the Imperial military.

Don't waste my time with circular logic please. People have stated repeatedly why an overall policy of discrimination makes no sense.

Wether or not it makes sense is irrelevant, asshat. THE POLICY CANONICALLY EXISTS.

Why don't have to accept one discredited source that says it exists no matter how many times you repeat it.

As that source is a) canon and b) NOT discredited by higher or even same-level canon yes we DO have to accept it.

[Cao Cao]

It is REPEATEDLY discredited by EU sources depicting women in the military and evidence in the movies that shows lack of women and aliens on both sides. Wave this "IT'S CANON!!!" red herring all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it is one single source within the EU that does not mesh with the rest of the universe.

[Steel]

It is REPEATEDLY discredited by EU sources depicting women in the military and evidence in the movies that shows lack of women and aliens on both sides. Wave this "IT'S CANON!!!" red herring all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it is one single source within the EU that does not mesh with the rest of the universe.

How the FUCK is the canon a red herring in a debate about the SW universe?

For fucks sake the canon is all we have to go on! Otherwise its just like a fanfic and we are talking about a different universe. If you like i'll go and write 600 short stories which focus on imperial military discrimination. They wont be canon, but will by your logic handily settle the issue.

Edit to add: The above is an outright lie. It is NOT just 1 source. Also: There can be no discredit to the policy by simply having serving females, this does not in any way show that they were not discriminated against in line with the policy.

[Lazarus]

It is REPEATEDLY discredited by EU sources depicting women in the military and evidence in the movies that shows lack of women and aliens on both sides.

BOTH of these points have already been countered. First, the mere handful of high-ranking Imp women can easily be reconciled. Hence, Non-huMan is not contradicted. Second, you already conceeded the point about the Rebel women at Hoth, not to mention the vast number of women depicted in the EU. Third, seriously, stop with the aliens. I don't care whether you think you can 'discredit' a source by starting an entirely different debate, it's a red herring.

Wave this "IT'S CANON!!!" red herring all you want.

ROFL!!
So the rules of canon are a red herring then, huh? Don't mean anything at all?

It doesn't change the fact that it is one single source within the EU that does not mesh with the rest of the universe.

It doesn't mesh? So where's the contradictory evidence? Oh right yeah, I forgot, you don't need to provide that, because your 'reasoning' is evidence enough. The handful of female Imp officers do NOT contradict it, and there are many sources that corroborate it.

[Batman]

What YOU don't seem to grasp is that it may canonically exist, but then so do 3 million clones and the Executor nearly bankrupting the Empire.
Neither of those is contradicted in the movies.

Actually Executor nearly bankrupting the empire IS discredited by the movies.
'There's a lot of command ships.' NTM that the DS 2 alone blows this idea straight out of the water, as does the rest of the EU. If Executor was that damn expensive how could the bloody tatters of the Empire post-ROTJ /reborn Palpatine afford Eclipse and Sovereign? Hell, how could Zinj afford Iron Fist? There's NOTHING in the movies contradicting NonHuMan, nor in the EU.

Show me where it says the Executor didn't nearly bankrupt it's makers.

'There's a lot of command ships.' DS1. DS2. Contradicted in the EU itself.. Nothing contradicting NonHuMAn in the movies. Quite the contrary, actually.

Maybe you just need to accept that many things in the EU don't stand up to close scrutiny.

Maybe YOU need to accept that some of them DO no matter how much you dislike them.

The rules of canon overrule you. The NhM track is canon, whether you think it makes sense or not counts for absolutely jack shit. A policy of discrimination in the Imperial military is stated in the EU, and not contradicted by the films. Therefore, there is discrimination in the Imperial military. Evidence and conclusion. Former proves the latter.

You know full well that my point is that the films do discredit non-huMan.

Which they don't in any way shape or form.

[Batman]

It is REPEATEDLY discredited by EU sources depicting women in the military and evidence in the movies that shows lack of women and aliens on both sides.

Yes. Your point being? AT BEST that means the Alliance is as bad as the Empire (which it isn't, as we see SOME Alliance female operators vs NONE for the Empire). Oh, and the Alliance had aliens in the movies while the Empire didn't. And nobody ever said there are no women in the imperial military at all. They're discriminated against. Foe which we have a canon source explicitely stating so and NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER contradicting, with the movies supporting it, what with them NEVER SHOWING A SINGLE FEMALE IMPERIAL SOLDIER.

Wave this "IT'S CANON!!!" red herring all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it is one single source within the EU that does not mesh with the rest of the universe.

One that DOES mesh with the rest of the universe quite easily actually, and absolutely DOES mesh with the movies (which don't show A SINGLE IMPERIAL FEMALE SOLDIER). Why don't you show the evidence for there being droves of females in the imperial military.

[Isolder74]

Main Entry: dis·crim·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: dis-"kri-m&-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>

Now you can't tell me what Daala described as happening to her in the Academy does not fit this definition.