Zelda Timeline Theory (criticism, please!)

[Cao Cao]

Just a quick question that doesn't pretain too much to the storyline, but what's "FSA"?

Four Swords Adventures, a GC multiplayer Zelda game.

Oh right, yes. That's the GC version. Still, I scoff at Zelda-not-for-Johnny-no-mates. Scoff!

[Darth Yoshi]

And sure enough the Hylian script does change between Ocarina and Wind Waker (quite significantly in fact).

Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing?

He barely glances at Link, while on his horse, while his attention is focused on chasing Zelda, at night, in the middle of a storm. That does not constitute a confrontation.

Now you're just whoring semantics, but fine. Link confronts Ganondorf. The point is, they meet. And again, this is if Power didn't protect Ganondorf's memory.

I'm pretty sure Aganhim was always Ganon in disguise.

No can do. At the beginning of LttP, Ganon is still sealed away. If Agahnim was Ganon in disguise, then what was the point of breaking the seal? He would physically in the Light World, and there would be no need to break the seal.

I believe it's Four Swords Adventure, a multiplayer game that was part of the Link to the Past port for the GBA. In my view, it's canonicity is debatable.

Arbitrarily throwing games out is a good way to fuck SoD and completely invalidate your position.

[Elaro]

In the time it takes for an entire people to forget the name of the country they once lived in, the written and spoken languages would have changed to the point that any eroded inscriptions that survived the Flood would be useless. It would be like expecting medieval scholars to understand cuneiform, but worse.

Well, in a land with magic, it's not incredible that there exists a magic spell that allows one to understand languages. I seem to recall a certain nut in MC...

The Koroks are insular—much like their Kokiri ancestors—and are irrelevant to the collective memory of the Hylians.

The ancient knowledge of the Rito is fading, and soon enough they will be irrelevant to the Hylian memory as well.

Conceded.

How convenient. Why the hell would such a traumatic event only superficially change the landscape? If you invoke the gods, I counter with the fact that the gods are just as likely to leave the landscape unchanged.

OK, so the fall of the water doesn't change the landscape. That actually doesn't impact my timeline order at all.

The SNES version of the Imprisoning War only differs from OoT in that the Hero of Time is never named. If the GBA port says otherwise, I'd like screens or quotes.

Oh, so wrong. From the A Link to the Past Manual,

As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde.

The knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously, many a brave soul were lost that day. However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land.

The only single person that is mentioned in this account is the "valiant person" they're looking for. That sounds suspiciously familiar to the story in the intro of WW, where it says that the people "believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them". Both of those stories have a "the kingdom waits/is looking for a hero" element, and both of those stories have Sages doing something important. Thus, it's not improbable that later historians concatenated the two events into one. In this case, the Imprisoning War. Ergo, ALttP is after tWW.

But anyway, the fact is that Ganon is sealed away into the Dark World before LttP. We know he was sealed away in OoT. Occam's Razor demands that you prove Ganon escaped and was then sealed again into the Dark World between OoT and LttP.

"Prove Ganon escaped"? In the intro to WW, it clearly states that Ganon "once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume his dark designs". As for how Ganon was "sealed again", I have a hypothesis. Ganondorf was a practioner of dark magic, right? It's not unreasonable to believe he had made a phylactery (or what passes as a phylactery in Hyrule) which he had hidden in the Sacred Realm, a.k.a. the Dark World. Ergo, at the end of WW, the Triforce returns to the Sacred Realm, and Ganon's "essence", if you will, leaves his body (which would explain why it turns to stone) and returns to the Sacred Realm. Yeah, I know, it's not Occam Razor-approved, but then again, the only timeline that actually comes close to that high standard is the Triforce of Time Theory, and it's really just a joke.

Now you're just being silly. Assuming that Power didn't protect OoT Ganondorf's memory of the original future, he does meet Link, because right after Ganondorf chases Zelda out of Castle Town, he confronts Link. That would be before the point where the timeline changes. More to the point, Ganondorf would know about the Hero of Time, because he was quite clearly familiar with the legends before making his bid for the Triforce (in fact, that knowledge was what drove him to seek it).

Well, the legend of the temples say that the Sages, with the Hero of Time, would bind the evil. But, according to you, Ganondorf is trapped inside the Sacred Realm because Link locked the door in behind him! Not something which requires much Sage help. My point being that Ganondorf still hasn't met the Hero of Time, especially since he knew the legends (he'd be looking for someone with the Sages' help). So, why would Ganondorf call WW Link the "Hero of Time, reborn", if he'd actually never met the Hero of Time? Plus, WW Link does fulfill the conditions of wielding the Master Sword, and being aided by the Sages (they're powering his Sword, after all). So why didn't Ganondorf call WW Link "the Hero of Time"? There are no time limits on legends, after all.

We know OoT Ganondorf can possess people, since that's what he did to Agahnim at some point.

Nitpick: We know ALttP Ganon can possess people.

And again, it's more sensible to refer to any given Hero as the "xth reincarnation of the Hero of Time", rather than the "reincarnation of the (x-1)th reincarnation of the Hero of Time".

Whuh?

[Qwerty 42]

Out of curiousity, does the Wind Waker introduction mention Link as the Hero of Time, or just as a hero? It's been a while since I've seen that sequence.

[Elaro]

Out of curiousity, does the Wind Waker introduction mention Link as the Hero of Time, or just as a hero? It's been a while since I've seen that sequence.

It mentions him (but not by name) as the Hero of Time.

This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, in a land with magic, it's not incredible that there exists a magic spell that allows one to understand languages. I seem to recall a certain nut in MC...

That assumes such magic will readily accessible, when that has never been the case, even pre-Flood.

OK, so the fall of the water doesn't change the landscape. That actually doesn't impact my timeline order at all.

Honestly, Ganon's castle seems to hold up to the water rather well, so I'll have to agree that the seascape doesn't change. However, going back to your original point, you yourself say that another sufficiently large landmass surviving the Flood is unlikely. However, it's just as unlikely to assume that the Great Sea recedes, especially since a straight reading of the wish indicates a permanent flood, and we know that Forest Haven is creating a new continent by expanding the islands. It's best to reduce the instances of deus ex machina as much as possible, so any post-Flood continent is more likely the result of the Forest Haven project.

Oh, so wrong. From the A Link to the Past Manual,

As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde.

The knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously, many a brave soul were lost that day. However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land.

The only single person that is mentioned in this account is the "valiant person" they're looking for. That sounds suspiciously familiar to the story in the intro of WW, where it says that the people "believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them". Both of those stories have a "the kingdom waits/is looking for a hero" element, and both of those stories have Sages doing something important. Thus, it's not improbable that later historians concatenated the two events into one. In this case, the Imprisoning War. Ergo, ALttP is after tWW.

Thank you. In light of this, I retract my earlier statement.

"Prove Ganon escaped"? In the intro to WW, it clearly states that Ganon "once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume his dark designs". As for how Ganon was "sealed again", I have a hypothesis. Ganondorf was a practioner of dark magic, right? It's not unreasonable to believe he had made a phylactery (or what passes as a phylactery in Hyrule) which he had hidden in the Sacred Realm, a.k.a. the Dark World. Ergo, at the end of WW, the Triforce returns to the Sacred Realm, and Ganon's "essence", if you will, leaves his body (which would explain why it turns to stone) and returns to the Sacred Realm. Yeah, I know, it's not Occam Razor-approved, but then again, the only timeline that actually comes close to that high standard is the Triforce of Time Theory, and it's really just a joke.

The legend can be interpreted many different ways, and you know it. It certainly doesn't "clearly" say Ganon escaped the Dark World like you claim.

Well, the legend of the temples say that the Sages, with the Hero of Time, would bind the evil. But, according to you, Ganondorf is trapped inside the Sacred Realm because Link locked the door in behind him! Not something which requires much Sage help. My point being that Ganondorf still hasn't met the Hero of Time, especially since he knew the legends (he'd be looking for someone with the Sages' help). So, why would Ganondorf call WW Link the "Hero of Time, reborn", if he'd actually never met the Hero of Time? Plus, WW Link does fulfill the conditions of wielding the Master Sword, and being aided by the Sages (they're powering his Sword, after all). So why didn't Ganondorf call WW Link "the Hero of Time"? There are no time limits on legends, after all.

The Sages' seal follows Link back into the past, like I explained in my first post.

As for the discrepancies between the Imprisoning War accounts and the changed timeline, remember that Link tells Zelda about his adventures after MM. Otherwise, there's no way for MM to be a legend "dear to the Royal Family".

Nitpick: We know ALttP Ganon can possess people.

Yeah, and we're in agreement that LttP Ganon is OoT Ganondorf. Your point?

Whuh?

Let me put it this way. Would you rather refer to the Hero of Wind as "reincarnation of the Hero of Time", or "reincarnation of the Hero of Light, reincarnation of the Hero of Twilight, etc..., reincarnation of the Hero of Time"? I thought so.

I'll try to clarify more on some stuff when I get another chance.

[Cao Cao]

Now you're just whoring semantics, but fine. Link confronts Ganondorf. The point is, they meet. And again, this is if Power didn't protect Ganondorf's memory.

They meet for the briefest of moments. Are you telling me you remember every single incidental encounter in your life? Link was nothing to Ganondorf at that point in time.

No can do. At the beginning of LttP, Ganon is still sealed away. If Agahnim was Ganon in disguise, then what was the point of breaking the seal? He would physically in the Light World, and there would be no need to break the seal.

He has none of his true power in the Light World as Aganhim, he's more or less an avatar. We never see a "true" Aganhim, nor does the plot ever speak of him.

Arbitrarily throwing games out is a good way to fuck SoD and completely invalidate your position.

My view is that FSA already fucks with SoD which is why I believe it's canonicity debatable. Which doesn't equate to throwing it out mind you, I'm just voicing my view that it's not the most reliable source in the series.

[Darth Yoshi]

They meet for the briefest of moments. Are you telling me you remember every single incidental encounter in your life? Link was nothing to Ganondorf at that point in time.

His ticket to the Triforce is hardly "nothing." And I don't know about you, but I'd sure as hell remember the kid who locked me up and threw away the key.

He has none of his true power in the Light World as Aganhim, he's more or less an avatar. We never see a "true" Aganhim, nor does the plot ever speak of him.

A Phantom Ganon, in other words? I'll admit that it's plausible, but you're making assumptions here about Ganon's abilities and the seal. There are less variables involved with Agahnim being a separate person and getting delusions of grandeur after learning about the Imprisoning War.

My view is that FSA already fucks with SoD which is why I believe it's canonicity debatable. Which doesn't equate to throwing it out mind you, I'm just voicing my view that it's not the most reliable source in the series.

You'll have to explain this in detail. As it is, the impression I'm getting is that you're doing the equivalent of arbitrarily dismissing the SWEU.

[Elaro]

That assumes such magic will readily accessible, when that has never been the case, even pre-Flood.

Well, not necessarily "readily" accessible. But there has been evidence that people, with sufficient training, can use magic, and that some people could cast the hylian equivalent of "comprehend languages". And that's all my theory requires.

Honestly, Ganon's castle seems to hold up to the water rather well, so I'll have to agree that the seascape doesn't change. However, going back to your original point, you yourself say that another sufficiently large landmass surviving the Flood is unlikely. However, it's just as unlikely to assume that the Great Sea recedes, especially since a straight reading of the wish indicates a permanent flood, and we know that Forest Haven is creating a new continent by expanding the islands. It's best to reduce the instances of deus ex machina as much as possible, so any post-Flood continent is more likely the result of the Forest Haven project.

Well, firstly, the Forest Haven project wouldn't be realised for perhaps hundreds of years, which doesn't fulfill the condition of giving the children a future (if you take a literal interpretation). Secondly, a fading of the Great Sea is more likely than the discovery of an emerged continent, because a big continent is very unlikely in the context of a global flood to begin with. The situation: a flood so big the tops of mountains become islands. In order for there to still be a continent, you'd need a vast expanse of land at a somewhat higher altitude than most mountains of Hyrule. I admit, it is possible that there exist such a place, but we have no way of telling. In other words: possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Thirdly, and lastly, my most compelling argument for a OoT-WW-ALttP order (it is also a weak argument for split timeline): the state of the Triforce. In OoT, the Triforce starts whole, and ends separate. In WW, it starts separate, and ends whole. In ALttP, it is whole throughout. The problem with your order, OoT-ALttP-WW, is that it requires two more events to explain how the Triforce got reunited between OoT and ALttP and how it got separated again between ALttP and WW. Plus the fact that at the end of ALttP, Ganon is dead, as in "this lich's philactery's been destroyed, and someone dumped him into a grinder and watched his bone turned to meal"-dead. Ganondorf's death at the end of WW is more along the lines of "fallen off a cliff and no body was ever found"-dead, if you catch my drift.

(The weak argument for the split timeline resides in the fact that throughout the games there has been two accounts of Triforce reunification (WW and LoZ/AoL), and only one of disassociation (OoT)).

The legend can be interpreted many different ways, and you know it. It certainly doesn't "clearly" say Ganon escaped the Dark World like you claim.

Here is the exact quote from the WW intro.

This boy, who traveled through time to save
the land, was known as the Hero of Time.
(snip)
The great evil that all thought had
been forever sealed away by the hero...

...once again crept forth from the depths of
the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

It ain't rocket science. Ganon escapes from his prison, which is the Sacred Realm (we know that from OoT), which had been corrupted to the Dark World (we know that from ALttP). Here it says that he "once again crept forth", which implicitly states that Ganon escapes from the prison that the Hero of Time sealed him in. How else can you interpret it?

The Sages' seal follows Link back into the past, like I explained in my first post.

As for the discrepancies between the Imprisoning War accounts and the changed timeline, remember that Link tells Zelda about his adventures after MM. Otherwise, there's no way for MM to be a legend "dear to the Royal Family".

Where does it say that? I can't remember off-hand. Also, Link must be quite the storyteller, because I don't remember there being a big battle between the knights and Ganon's forces in OoT.

His ticket to the Triforce is hardly "nothing." And I don't know about you, but I'd sure as hell remember the kid who locked me up and threw away the key.

I think the point Cao Cao is trying to make is that Ganondorf never meets Link as the Hero of Time.

[Cao Cao]

His ticket to the Triforce is hardly "nothing." And I don't know about you, but I'd sure as hell remember the kid who locked me up and threw away the key.

Only in a single timeline. In a multiple timeline, as Elaro says, Ganondorf never knows Link as the Hero of Time. To him, he's just some kid he passed by on a stormy night.

A Phantom Ganon, in other words? I'll admit that it's plausible, but you're making assumptions here about Ganon's abilities and the seal. There are less variables involved with Agahnim being a separate person and getting delusions of grandeur after learning about the Imprisoning War.

Perhaps. I'm just working from the point of view that Agahnim has no personal history whatsoever. But the point is weak and doesn't exclude possession, of course.

You'll have to explain this in detail. As it is, the impression I'm getting is that you're doing the equivalent of arbitrarily dismissing the SWEU.

The whole multiplayer gimmick game aspect is what makes me look down on FSA as lower canon. But again, I'm not advocating throwing it out entirely. I conceed the point as it's a personal view.

Where does it say that? I can't remember off-hand. Also, Link must be quite the storyteller, because I don't remember there being a big battle between the knights and Ganon's forces in OoT.

Well, IIRC there is talk of a battle before Hyrule Castle falls in OoT. Not that Link is there to see it.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, not necessarily "readily" accessible. But there has been evidence that people, with sufficient training, can use magic, and that some people could cast the hylian equivalent of "comprehend languages". And that's all my theory requires.

My point is, if such magic is rare before the Great Flood, it'll be nigh impossible to find with the post-Flood intellectual decay.

Well, firstly, the Forest Haven project wouldn't be realised for perhaps hundreds of years, which doesn't fulfill the condition of giving the children a future (if you take a literal interpretation). Secondly, a fading of the Great Sea is more likely than the discovery of an emerged continent, because a big continent is very unlikely in the context of a global flood to begin with. The situation: a flood so big the tops of mountains become islands. In order for there to still be a continent, you'd need a vast expanse of land at a somewhat higher altitude than most mountains of Hyrule. I admit, it is possible that there exist such a place, but we have no way of telling. In other words: possible? Yes. Likely? No.

I agree, except for your interpretation of the wish. The wording is sufficiently vague that simply killing Ganondorf and eliminating the possibility of his return would fulfill the conditions of the wish, without drying the Great Sea.

Thirdly, and lastly, my most compelling argument for a OoT-WW-ALttP order (it is also a weak argument for split timeline): the state of the Triforce. In OoT, the Triforce starts whole, and ends separate. In WW, it starts separate, and ends whole. In ALttP, it is whole throughout. The problem with your order, OoT-ALttP-WW, is that it requires two more events to explain how the Triforce got reunited between OoT and ALttP and how it got separated again between ALttP and WW. Plus the fact that at the end of ALttP, Ganon is dead, as in "this lich's philactery's been destroyed, and someone dumped him into a grinder and watched his bone turned to meal"-dead. Ganondorf's death at the end of WW is more along the lines of "fallen off a cliff and no body was ever found"-dead, if you catch my drift.

(The weak argument for the split timeline resides in the fact that throughout the games there has been two accounts of Triforce reunification (WW and LoZ/AoL), and only one of disassociation (OoT)).

The Triforce can't possibly be in one piece in LttP. Otherwise, Ganon wouldn't need to kill Link to get the Triforce, since while Link is off gallivanting around the Dark World rescuing damsels in distress, Ganon could've just seized the Triforce, made his wish, and rendered Link irrelevant. The fact that Ganon needed to kill Link before taking the Triforce is proof that it wasn't in one piece.

Here is the exact quote from the WW intro.

This boy, who traveled through time to save
the land, was known as the Hero of Time.
(snip)
The great evil that all thought had
been forever sealed away by the hero...

...once again crept forth from the depths of
the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

It ain't rocket science. Ganon escapes from his prison, which is the Sacred Realm (we know that from OoT), which had been corrupted to the Dark World (we know that from ALttP). Here it says that he "once again crept forth", which implicitly states that Ganon escapes from the prison that the Hero of Time sealed him in. How else can you interpret it?

You're treating the legend as infallible. Quite frankly, if the legend can't even tell me the name of the legendary kingdom, then the abscence of other Heroes is simply because they've also been lost to time.

Where does it say that? I can't remember off-hand. Also, Link must be quite the storyteller, because I don't remember there being a big battle between the knights and Ganon's forces in OoT.

Opening of MM, from zeldalegends.net:

In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend...

A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends...

In order for those events—in a parallel dimension—to be a Hylian legend, someone must have known about what happened and passed it down. Link either returns from Termina to tell his tale, or Zelda's powers let her know what happens. It's more likely that Link comes back, since Zelda's visions don't seem to be capable of such detail.

I think the point Cao Cao is trying to make is that Ganondorf never meets Link as the Hero of Time.

But when is a Hero considered a Hero? Just because Link hadn't yet drawn the Master Sword doesn't make him any less of a Hero (case in point, TP Link was identified as the Hero almost from the getgo). Ganondorf was aware that Link was working with Zelda against him. With his knowledge of the legends, and the fact that Link did draw the Master Sword to enter the Sacred Realm, it wouldn't be hard to figure out that Link was Hero material.

Only in a single timeline. In a multiple timeline, as Elaro says, Ganondorf never knows Link as the Hero of Time. To him, he's just some kid he passed by on a stormy night.

Considering that we are arguing about Ganondorf's memory in a single timeline here, I'm not sure what you're getting at, except maybe a roundabout way of conceding.

Well, IIRC there is talk of a battle before Hyrule Castle falls in OoT. Not that Link is there to see it.

Well, Link wouldn't need to see that, since Ganondorf does attack before Link enters the Sacred Realm.

[Elaro]

My point is, if such magic is rare before the Great Flood, it'll be nigh impossible to find with the post-Flood intellectual decay.

Why would there be 'intellectual decay' in a post-Flood world? I can see communication would be a problem, and a lack of information, but once the Sea returns to the heavens, there's no more problem.

I agree, except for your interpretation of the wish. The wording is sufficiently vague that simply killing Ganondorf and eliminating the possibility of his return would fulfill the conditions of the wish, without drying the Great Sea.

Well, the wish called for " Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!!!". Now, if there were no other lands, wouldn't you agree that one of the, perhaps the easiest, way to give hope and a future would be to dry the land of their ancestors? This is one of the ways to interpret it, yes, but in light of the other evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order, it's the "only" interpretation that fits.

The Triforce can't possibly be in one piece in LttP. Otherwise, Ganon wouldn't need to kill Link to get the Triforce, since while Link is off gallivanting around the Dark World rescuing damsels in distress, Ganon could've just seized the Triforce, made his wish, and rendered Link irrelevant. The fact that Ganon needed to kill Link before taking the Triforce is proof that it wasn't in one piece.

Or, he remembered what happened last time he took the Triforce (that is, he remembers that it split), and he waited until both the princess and the hero were dead/under his power before he touched it, thinking that the pieces would not separate. Also, your theory would mean that Link defeated Ganon, and then, without seeing it, the Triforce reunites all by itself, in the very short interval between his victory and when Link walks into the room of the Triforce. Keeping in mind that we've never seen the Triforce do anything at all like that, quite to the contrary in fact, I think you're reaching. Also, *cough* Occam's Razor *cough*.

You're treating the legend as infallible. Quite frankly, if the legend can't even tell me the name of the legendary kingdom, then the abscence of other Heroes is simply because they've also been lost to time.

What? First of all, I'm not sure what the heck you're saying.

Second of all, I don't treat the legend as infaillible, but since it's the only thing to go on, I accept its major points: that is, that there was a Hero (of Time), that he imprisoned a great evil, and that the evil escaped. Thirdly, the ALttP Link didn't imprison Ganon, he killed him outright. Heck, that's the whole point of the game: don't let Ganon escape. Since the legend clearly refers to a great evil escaping, the legend wasn't referring to ALttP, but to OoT.

Opening of MM, from zeldalegends.net:

In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend...

A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends...

In order for those events—in a parallel dimension—to be a Hylian legend, someone must have known about what happened and passed it down. Link either returns from Termina to tell his tale, or Zelda's powers let her know what happens. It's more likely that Link comes back, since Zelda's visions don't seem to be capable of such detail.

No, Link goes to see her before he leaves on his quest. There's the flashback sequence on top of Clock Tower, and the final scene of OoT as evidence of that. Secondly, if Link told the Royal Family of the Imprisoning War, why is he never mentioned in the ALttP account of the War? Thirdly, that phrase might merely be an introduction to Link, and may have absolutely nothing to do with the events of MM.

But when is a Hero considered a Hero? Just because Link hadn't yet drawn the Master Sword doesn't make him any less of a Hero (case in point, TP Link was identified as the Hero almost from the getgo). Ganondorf was aware that Link was working with Zelda against him. With his knowledge of the legends, and the fact that Link did draw the Master Sword to enter the Sacred Realm, it wouldn't be hard to figure out that Link was Hero material.

Yes, but the Hero "of Time"? Doubtful.

Considering that we are arguing about Ganondorf's memory in a single timeline here, I'm not sure what you're getting at, except maybe a roundabout way of conceding.

I, for one, am arguing split timeline (damn you, TP! damn you!). With one branch going OoT(Adult)-WW/PH-ALttP/LA and the other going OoT(child)/MM-TP-LoZ/Aol-Oracles, With MC going way before both, FS going after MC, and FSA going I don't know where, because I haven't played it yet.

Well, Link wouldn't need to see that, since Ganondorf does attack before Link enters the Sacred Realm.

Well, it wasn't a heroic last stand like the IW account makes it sound like. Heck, the guards are still alive after that attack (mostly).

[Darth Yoshi]

Why would there be 'intellectual decay' in a post-Flood world? I can see communication would be a problem, and a lack of information, but once the Sea returns to the heavens, there's no more problem.

Intellectual decay is exactly what we see in WW. Higher knowledge which doesn't directly aid in the surival of the people—like magic—is quicky forgotten, because it's useless knowledge in a post-apocalyptic world.

Well, the wish called for " Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!!!". Now, if there were no other lands, wouldn't you agree that one of the, perhaps the easiest, way to give hope and a future would be to dry the land of their ancestors? This is one of the ways to interpret it, yes, but in light of the other evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order, it's the "only" interpretation that fits.

Wouldn't that be interpreting the evidence to suit your conclusion? Your interpretation only works if you accept that LttP follows WW. Like I said, simply removing Ganondorf permanently also fits the conditions of the wish, without the need for an extra instance of deus ex machina.

Or, he remembered what happened last time he took the Triforce (that is, he remembers that it split), and he waited until both the princess and the hero were dead/under his power before he touched it, thinking that the pieces would not separate. Also, your theory would mean that Link defeated Ganon, and then, without seeing it, the Triforce reunites all by itself, in the very short interval between his victory and when Link walks into the room of the Triforce. Keeping in mind that we've never seen the Triforce do anything at all like that, quite to the contrary in fact, I think you're reaching. Also, *cough* Occam's Razor *cough*.

Watch that cutscene again. When Link walks into the chamber, there's initially nothing on the altar. Then the three pieces move in from off-screen and join up. And since you brought it up, Occam's Razor would like an explanation of just how the Triforce ended back up in the Dark World under your proposal. With mine, Ganon has Power from OoT, Wisdom is extracted following Zelda's banishment by Agahnim, and Link brings Courage with him. There is precedent for a Hero being born with Courage (TP), after all.

What? First of all, I'm not sure what the heck you're saying.

Second of all, I don't treat the legend as infaillible, but since it's the only thing to go on, I accept its major points: that is, that there was a Hero (of Time), that he imprisoned a great evil, and that the evil escaped. Thirdly, the ALttP Link didn't imprison Ganon, he killed him outright. Heck, that's the whole point of the game: don't let Ganon escape. Since the legend clearly refers to a great evil escaping, the legend wasn't referring to ALttP, but to OoT.

And I'm saying that if the legend has faded to the point where the name Hyrule no longer appears, then you can't say that the lack of other Heroes in the legend is evidence of lack.

And so what if LttP Ganon gets killed outright? Ganon imbues part of himself into his trident, where he stays until he is released into FSA Ganondorf.

No, Link goes to see her before he leaves on his quest. There's the flashback sequence on top of Clock Tower, and the final scene of OoT as evidence of that. Secondly, if Link told the Royal Family of the Imprisoning War, why is he never mentioned in the ALttP account of the War? Thirdly, that phrase might merely be an introduction to Link, and may have absolutely nothing to do with the events of MM.

1. And he sees her again after he gets back from Termina, to tell her what happened in Termina.
2. Remember what the LttP legend says about the Heroes. They're all descendants of the Knights of Hyrule. Who buys time for the Sages? The Knights of Hyrule. Link's account gets garbled with the Hylian records of what happened.
3. What? You're not seriously suggesting that, are you? That's retarded. The opening is clearly introducing us to a legend about the Hero of Time, with the rest of the game filling us in on that legend. Otherwise, why even mention it as "a legend held dearly by the Royal Family"? Simply saying "there once was a boy in the land of Hyrule..." would work with less confusion.

Yes, but the Hero "of Time"? Doubtful.

Why would it be doubtful? "Hero of Time" is the only title mentioned in OoT, and it's implied that the OoT legends specifically name "Hero of Time".

I, for one, am arguing split timeline (damn you, TP! damn you!). With one branch going OoT(Adult)-WW/PH-ALttP/LA and the other going OoT(child)/MM-TP-LoZ/Aol-Oracles, With MC going way before both, FS going after MC, and FSA going I don't know where, because I haven't played it yet.

Yes, but the whole context of the Ganondorf's memory exchange was whether or not my proposal, which is single timeline, works.

Well, it wasn't a heroic last stand like the IW account makes it sound like. Heck, the guards are still alive after that attack (mostly).

Ganondorf's initially attack actually seemed more like a commando op anyway.

[Elaro]

Intellectual decay is exactly what we see in WW. Higher knowledge which doesn't directly aid in the surival of the people—like magic—is quicky forgotten, because it's useless knowledge in a post-apocalyptic world.

Useless... magic? Do you realise what you are saying here? Knowing magic is useless. That's like saying that knowing how to make fire is useless. Magic users have always been rare in Hyrule. (But it only takes one. Mudora, maybe.) Still, intellectual decay? Not quite. See the potion dude, and the photographer, and the brother of the swordsman. Also, see the cannons and the telescopes. (And sails, and various boat stuff.) And the seer that left all sorts of neat instructions. That seer alone means that, if knowledge of magic wasn't passed on, it could certainly have been discovered independantly.

Wouldn't that be interpreting the evidence to suit your conclusion? Your interpretation only works if you accept that LttP follows WW. Like I said, simply removing Ganondorf permanently also fits the conditions of the wish, without the need for an extra instance of deus ex machina.

Technically, if I only had that to go on, yes, but considering all the other evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order (status of the Triforce, references to other games), that interpretation is the only one that makes any sense. Here, I'll go over the evidence:

1)The Triforce. It is separate at the end of OoT, separate at the beginning of WW, whole at its' end, and, from the actual evidence, the Triforce in ALttP is whole throughout. Actually, troughout the Zelda games there are two actual, seen, instances of the reunification of the Triforce: WW, and LoZ/Aol. (How many separations of the Triforce have we witnessed? Only one. Ergo, split timeline.)

2) In WW, there are a lot more references to OoT than ALttP has. There's the whole "Hero of Time" thing (with the King of Red Lions, the Great Deku Tree, Jabun and Ganondorf all mentioning his title, something that no one in ALttP does), there's the introductory legend, which is a lot more faithful to OoT's events than ALttP's manual's legend. There are glass paintings depicting the Sages from OoT. There are Gorons in WW, but not in ALttP. There's the Great Deku Tree, who was not present in ALttP. Also, Ganondorf makes a remark to the effect that it is fateful that he reunites the Triforce on top of his Tower, just like OoT Ganondorf*. Need I go on? On the other hand, there's a similar geography between ALttP and OoT, but not WW. And there's a fatter Ganon in ALttP than OoT, but there's a fatter Ganondorf in WW. Is there a connection? And, yeah, that's it. (IIRC, the color of the handle of the Master Sword is dissimilar between OoT and WW/ALttP.)

*If you pull that "WW Ganondorf is FSA Ganondorf with OoT Ganondorf's memories" thing I swear to the FSM I will shave you. With that razor we know so well.

Watch that cutscene again. When Link walks into the chamber, there's initially nothing on the altar. Then the three pieces move in from off-screen and join up. And since you brought it up, Occam's Razor would like an explanation of just how the Triforce ended back up in the Dark World under your proposal. With mine, Ganon has Power from OoT, Wisdom is extracted following Zelda's banishment by Agahnim, and Link brings Courage with him. There is precedent for a Hero being born with Courage (TP), after all.

Yeah, but is there a precedent for him to never notice? And for no one else to notice either? And for it to be never, ever shown throughout the whole game? If I was reaching with my interpretation, your arm would have popped out of its socket with this line of reasoning. Additionally, you can't forcibly "extract" a Triforce piece out of somebody, unless every person with a Triforce piece is close by, as per WW (Ganondorf had sleeping Zelda on top of the Tower with him, even though she posed the danger of an additional opponent).

Also, as to how it got to the Dark World: The DW is the Sacred Realm. When the King of Hyrule made his wish, the Triforce returned to its rightful place in the Sacred Realm. ( One of my previous hypotheses on this was that Ganon's essence stole it when it left Ganondorf's body to go to the Dark World.)

And I'm saying that if the legend has faded to the point where the name Hyrule no longer appears, then you can't say that the lack of other Heroes in the legend is evidence of lack.

I still don't get what you're talking about. I was saying that the legend clearly says that Ganon escaped something to wreck havoc and despair upon Hyrule, and you are talking about unmentioned heroes. I think that you, sir, are red-herringing me. Stop it.

And so what if LttP Ganon gets killed outright? Ganon imbues part of himself into his trident, where he stays until he is released into FSA Ganondorf.

Please explain why WW Ganondorf looks and sounds a lot more like OoT Ganondorf than ALttP Ganon, and please explain how Ganon's trident survived the obliviation of the Dark World.

1. And he sees her again after he gets back from Termina, to tell her what happened in Termina.
2. Remember what the LttP legend says about the Heroes. They're all descendants of the Knights of Hyrule. Who buys time for the Sages? The Knights of Hyrule. Link's account gets garbled with the Hylian records of what happened.
3. What? You're not seriously suggesting that, are you? That's retarded. The opening is clearly introducing us to a legend about the Hero of Time, with the rest of the game filling us in on that legend. Otherwise, why even mention it as "a legend held dearly by the Royal Family"? Simply saying "there once was a boy in the land of Hyrule..." would work with less confusion.

1. Pure conjecture, and since we never hear of Termina in any other Zelda, there is nothing to suggest this might be true.
2. Okay, sure.
3. No, because the phrases after the "legend" line were referring to the events of OoT. So, the "legend" is the story of OoT, which doubly tells the player that this Link is OoT-Link, and that he's looking for Navi. Also, never assume that the people behind Zelda don't want to confuse us. Ambiguity is their future artistic freedom, after all.

Why would it be doubtful? "Hero of Time" is the only title mentioned in OoT, and it's implied that the OoT legends specifically name "Hero of Time".

Conceded.

Yes, but the whole context of the Ganondorf's memory exchange was whether or not my proposal, which is single timeline, works.

No, it doesn't. Your theory relies more on conjecture and ignoring the details of the games than actual observation. How the flippin' hell can the legend of the Hero of Time be completely unmentioned (in fact, garbled in some places) for the whole continuity, yet pop up, unmolested and whole, at the end? How can the Triforce spontaneously separate between the Oracles and TP? How can it do that again between AoL and WW? Heck, where were the Gorons in ALttP? Where were the Picori before MC? I could find more wrong things with it, but it's sufficient for now.

Later, I'll find all the extra loopholes and creative licences you take with your timeline, and I'll do the same with mine.

[Qwerty 42]

Something interesting I'd noticed on my run through Twilight Princess- the theme of Link as the "unknown hero" is stressed repeatedly. If nothing else, the events in the Mirror Chamber need to take place before The Wind Waker, as the Mirror Chamber scene shows us how Ganon weakened his seal.

Is it possible, then, that Twilight Princess occurs but that version of Link not be mentioned in the WW intro?

[Elaro]

Something interesting I'd noticed on my run through Twilight Princess- the theme of Link as the "unknown hero" is stressed repeatedly. If nothing else, the events in the Mirror Chamber need to take place before The Wind Waker, as the Mirror Chamber scene shows us how Ganon weakened his seal.

Well, there's no evidence to suggest he was sealed before that scene, I think. The way they say it, it seems Ganondorf just tried to invade Hyrule, failed, and was brought to trial. Neither the Sages nor Ganondorf mention a previous imprisonment.

Is it possible, then, that Twilight Princess occurs but that version of Link not be mentioned in the WW intro?

Well, it's possible. It didn't seem to me as though the people were aware that they had been conquered (another reason why I don't like that game as much as the others). But there's still the problem of Ganondorf having the Triforce of Power.

[Darth Yoshi]

Useless... magic? Do you realise what you are saying here? Knowing magic is useless. That's like saying that knowing how to make fire is useless. Magic users have always been rare in Hyrule. (But it only takes one. Mudora, maybe.) Still, intellectual decay? Not quite. See the potion dude, and the photographer, and the brother of the swordsman. Also, see the cannons and the telescopes. (And sails, and various boat stuff.) And the seer that left all sorts of neat instructions. That seer alone means that, if knowledge of magic wasn't passed on, it could certainly have been discovered independantly.

So you're countering that useless knowledge is forgotten with knowledge that isn't useless. Good job. Everything you've mentioned directly contributes to the survival of the people. Fireballs don't. Being able to conjure demons from the abyss doesn't. Understanding languages from lost civilizations doesn't. Higher forms of magic, much like advanced technology, are always lost following an apocalyptic event. Familiarity with it wasn't common before the apocalyptic event, meaning that after there are extremely few people can understand it, and without the infrastructure to support the preservation of knowledge, those few quickly dwindle and die out. You see it happening even during WW, with only Medli understanding ancient Hylian, and even her knowledge is incomplete. Despite ancient Hylian having greater day-to-day usage than magic.

Technically, if I only had that to go on, yes, but considering all the other evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order (status of the Triforce, references to other games), that interpretation is the only one that makes any sense. Here, I'll go over the evidence:

1)The Triforce. It is separate at the end of OoT, separate at the beginning of WW, whole at its' end, and, from the actual evidence, the Triforce in ALttP is whole throughout. Actually, troughout the Zelda games there are two actual, seen, instances of the reunification of the Triforce: WW, and LoZ/Aol. (How many separations of the Triforce have we witnessed? Only one. Ergo, split timeline.)

2) In WW, there are a lot more references to OoT than ALttP has. There's the whole "Hero of Time" thing (with the King of Red Lions, the Great Deku Tree, Jabun and Ganondorf all mentioning his title, something that no one in ALttP does), there's the introductory legend, which is a lot more faithful to OoT's events than ALttP's manual's legend. There are glass paintings depicting the Sages from OoT. There are Gorons in WW, but not in ALttP. There's the Great Deku Tree, who was not present in ALttP. Also, Ganondorf makes a remark to the effect that it is fateful that he reunites the Triforce on top of his Tower, just like OoT Ganondorf*. Need I go on? On the other hand, there's a similar geography between ALttP and OoT, but not WW. And there's a fatter Ganon in ALttP than OoT, but there's a fatter Ganondorf in WW. Is there a connection? And, yeah, that's it. (IIRC, the color of the handle of the Master Sword is dissimilar between OoT and WW/ALttP.)

*If you pull that "WW Ganondorf is FSA Ganondorf with OoT Ganondorf's memories" thing I swear to the FSM I will shave you. With that razor we know so well.

1. Or, we could ground ourselves in reality and how reality works as much as possible, and come to the conclusion that at some currently unknown point the Triforce separated again, rather than assume that the timeline split. After all, we don't assume the timeline split just because the site where we believe Troy is was built over multiple times, despite having only one story of a Trojan War. Regardless, the AoL backstory provides another instance of the Triforce being separated.
2. The stained glass windows mean nothing. Do you know that those paintings didn't exist in LttP? I don't know what version of LttP you played, but our tour of Hyrule Castle wasn't quite that thorough. Are the Gorons exclusive to Death Mountain? There is more than one mountain along Hyrule's north-western border, assuming that those big boulders tumbling down Death Mountain aren't in fact curled up Gorons. Again, the Kokiri are insular and would not be mentioned if the Hero doesn't stumble into Kokiri Forest. But while we're on the subject, what do you say happened to the Great Deku Tree?
   *We know that FSA Ganondorf claims Ganon's trident. We know that he becomes the new Ganon afterward. Therefore, we also know that Ganon's power was sealed into the trident. We know that life force is tied to power, since TP Ganondorf granted Zant access to his power in exchange for housing his life force. We also know that memory is tied to life force, since TP Ganondorf remembers everything prior to his assimilation with Zant, and furthermore TP Zelda implies that her assimiliation with Midna was quite thorough ("your heart and mine were as one, however briefly"). Thus, we can conclude that FSA Ganondorf gained Ganon's memory along with the trident. So yeah, not a whole hell of a lot to shave.

Yeah, but is there a precedent for him to never notice? And for no one else to notice either? And for it to be never, ever shown throughout the whole game? If I was reaching with my interpretation, your arm would have popped out of its socket with this line of reasoning. Additionally, you can't forcibly "extract" a Triforce piece out of somebody, unless every person with a Triforce piece is close by, as per WW (Ganondorf had sleeping Zelda on top of the Tower with him, even though she posed the danger of an additional opponent).

For precedent, I present TP. No one ever, ever bats an eye at Link having the Triforce on his hand. No one. Also, OoT. You never know that Link has Courage until Zelda points it out. Again, I don't know what version of LttP you played, but I can't quite see Link's hand with that kind of detail. And how do you know that you can't extract a Triforce without everyone present? The implication in TP is that Wisdom is passed to Midna, without Power being anywhere near Hyrule Castle, let alone in the Light World. Else Midna wouldn't stare at her right hand on two separate occasions after being healed. WW Ganondorf didn't need to extract Wisdom, because it was secure within Tetra. She wasn't going anywhere, after all.

Also, as to how it got to the Dark World: The DW is the Sacred Realm. When the King of Hyrule made his wish, the Triforce returned to its rightful place in the Sacred Realm. ( One of my previous hypotheses on this was that Ganon's essence stole it when it left Ganondorf's body to go to the Dark World.)

Ugh, multidimensional travel. Assuming that you believe the Dark World was destroyed after LttP, where would the Triforce go then?

I still don't get what you're talking about. I was saying that the legend clearly says that Ganon escaped something to wreck havoc and despair upon Hyrule, and you are talking about unmentioned heroes. I think that you, sir, are red-herringing me. Stop it.

Your argument appears to rest on the fact that the Hero of Time is the only Hero mentioned in the legend, therefore WW follows OoT. I'm saying that the legend is obviously incomplete, so you can't use the legend as proof that WW follows OoT. In other words, yes Ganondorf escaped, but he was stopped again and again, until one day he succeeded, and the reason the legend doesn't say anything about that is because the legend is incomplete.

Please explain why WW Ganondorf looks and sounds a lot more like OoT Ganondorf than ALttP Ganon, and please explain how Ganon's trident survived the obliviation of the Dark World.

Well, considering that LttP Ganon gets all of maybe five lines, I don't see the problem. Also, Link's wish undid the damage Ganon wreaked. Without knowing the wording, the Golden Land may very well have been included. This is assuming that the Dark World doesn't simply revert back to the Sacred Realm without Ganon's influence. That still means the Dark World "disappears," after all.

1. Pure conjecture, and since we never hear of Termina in any other Zelda, there is nothing to suggest this might be true.
2. Okay, sure.
3. No, because the phrases after the "legend" line were referring to the events of OoT. So, the "legend" is the story of OoT, which doubly tells the player that this Link is OoT-Link, and that he's looking for Navi. Also, never assume that the people behind Zelda don't want to confuse us. Ambiguity is their future artistic freedom, after all.

Why would we need to hear about Termina in other Zelda games? MM is a fucking side story, having nothing to do with threats to Hyrule, the Triforce, or Ganon.

I'll grant you that the intro can be interpreted that way. But the intro begins like a story, so I took it to mean that MM was a Hylian legend in and of itself. However, invoking author intent is a blatant violation of SoD, and defeats the entire purpose of this discussion.

No, it doesn't. Your theory relies more on conjecture and ignoring the details of the games than actual observation. How the flippin' hell can the legend of the Hero of Time be completely unmentioned (in fact, garbled in some places) for the whole continuity, yet pop up, unmolested and whole, at the end? How can the Triforce spontaneously separate between the Oracles and TP? How can it do that again between AoL and WW? Heck, where were the Gorons in ALttP? Where were the Picori before MC? I could find more wrong things with it, but it's sufficient for now.

You're assuming that the pieces were actually reassembled after AoL, when it's more likely that it was a return to the pre-LoZ status quo, but with Link holding Courage. Like I said, the Gorons were either the boulders bouncing down Death Mountain, or off elsewhere in the north-western mountain range. Take your pick. As for the Minish, I don't get what you're asking here. Are you asking why the Minish aren't mentioned, or where they physically were? The Minish are irrelevant to most of the other stories, and they're small enough that you wouldn't be able to tell they were there anyway.

Well, there's no evidence to suggest he was sealed before that scene, I think. The way they say it, it seems Ganondorf just tried to invade Hyrule, failed, and was brought to trial. Neither the Sages nor Ganondorf mention a previous imprisonment.

It seems to be a new Ganondorf, anyway.

[Shadowtraveler]

The whole multiplayer gimmick game aspect is what makes me look down on FSA as lower canon. But again, I'm not advocating throwing it out entirely. I conceed the point as it's a personal view

The multiplayer aspect is actually a plot device; the Four Sword turned Link into four Links, so there's no need to make it non-canon.

And just to chip in, it's somewhat implied that Link's Awakening occurs after Oracle of Ages/Seasons since Link departs on a boat at the end of a Linked Game.

[Qwerty 42]

The whole multiplayer gimmick game aspect is what makes me look down on FSA as lower canon. But again, I'm not advocating throwing it out entirely. I conceed the point as it's a personal view

The multiplayer aspect is actually a plot device; the Four Sword turned Link into four Links, so there's no need to make it non-canon.

And just to chip in, it's somewhat implied that Link's Awakening occurs after Oracle of Ages/Seasons since Link departs on a boat at the end of a Linked Game.

I didn't remember that, thanks.

the ending of A Link to the Past also evidently states that the master sword slept forever after that game, so that gives us a good spot for that on the timeline.

[Elaro]

So you're countering that useless knowledge is forgotten with knowledge that isn't useless. Good job. Everything you've mentioned directly contributes to the survival of the people. Fireballs don't. Being able to conjure demons from the abyss doesn't. Understanding languages from lost civilizations doesn't. Higher forms of magic, much like advanced technology, are always lost following an apocalyptic event. Familiarity with it wasn't common before the apocalyptic event, meaning that after there are extremely few people can understand it, and without the infrastructure to support the preservation of knowledge, those few quickly dwindle and die out. You see it happening even during WW, with only Medli understanding ancient Hylian, and even her knowledge is incomplete. Despite ancient Hylian having greater day-to-day usage than magic.

I'm trying to argue that the peoples of the Great Sea are still sufficiently intelligent to innovate. Besides, the kind of magic you describe has always, in the LoZ mythos, been associated with the supernatural: mysticism (referring to a quote from OoT, saying that seeing the truth requires years of training, by that probably meaning meditation), gifts from Fairies, or as natural characteristics (Hylians, Twili, Ooca, monsters), or from the divine (Triforce, Sages).So, I'm saying that being capable of using magic is not learned, but the spells are. So, if we not seeing humans using magic in WW (even though there it's suggested, like Mr. Butler Door, or The Seer), it's probably because there aren't a lot of people who can do it.

1. Or, we could ground ourselves in reality and how reality works as much as possible, and come to the conclusion that at some currently unknown point the Triforce separated again, rather than assume that the timeline split. After all, we don't assume the timeline split just because the site where we believe Troy is was built over multiple times, despite having only one story of a Trojan War. Regardless, the AoL backstory provides another instance of the Triforce being separated.

"Ground ourselves in reality". Right. It's not that we're discussing a fictional tale of magic and fantasy. Uh-huh. [/sarcasm] But you're completely right though. Well, good. All that remains as ST evidence is TP Ganondorf's Triforce of Power. He can't have it, because there's OoT Ganondorf that has it who is stuck in the Sacred Realm. So if TP was after WW, that would work. Ish. The problem with using AoL is that it fubars any timeline theory we try to make, because the events that cause the Triforce to be broken and the "naming princesses Zelda" tradition to get started make a fun little paradox put together. Since, in OoT, the princess is named Zelda, we can assume that the tradition has already been established. But that would mean that the Triforce should be separate at the beginning of OoT and the Triforce of Courage hidden in the Valley of Death, when that's clearly not the case. The only possible way to reconcile that would be to put LoZ/AoL before OoT, to give a full Triforce. With all the wierd implications that might have. That Triforce of Time theory is looking better and better, though.

[*]The stained glass windows mean nothing. Do you know that those paintings didn't exist in LttP? I don't know what version of LttP you played, but our tour of Hyrule Castle wasn't quite that thorough.

Well, it was a heckuva lot more thorough than in WW. We explored what, 5 floors in ALttP? And only two rooms in WW. And yet, no windows in ALttP! That should tell us something. Maybe the Link of ALttP is actually OoT Link who time-travelled! And he spent all his adventure correcting people, but we've never heard him. That's the only thing that would explain the windows being present in a post-ALttP castle. Because if the ALttP people had access to those painted windows, they would know that the "Seven Wise Men" of their legends were actually "One Wise Goron, One Wise Kokiri, One Wise Zora, One Wise Sheikah, Two Wise Women, and One Wise Man" (counting Gerudo as women). They would also be thouroughly squicked out at the thought of maidens being descendant from a living rock, a fish, and a kid(!!). (It's probable that the charges of Sagehood was passed on through apprenticeship at the beginning, and not bloodline. Yeah.)

Are the Gorons exclusive to Death Mountain? There is more than one mountain along Hyrule's north-western border, assuming that those big boulders tumbling down Death Mountain aren't in fact curled up Gorons. Again, the Kokiri are insular and would not be mentioned if the Hero doesn't stumble into Kokiri Forest. But while we're on the subject, what do you say happened to the Great Deku Tree?

I say he's dead (or moved someplace else, but probably dead) along with the Koroks. Because there's so much time passed between WW and ALttP, the Great Deku Tree, like all living beings, passed away. Or maybe he wasn't divinely needed anymore. I don't know. Anyway, it's much more discrediting for your theiry if the Great Deku Tree isn't in ALttP, because we have evidence that he's there before, and that he's there after. So where is he in ALttP? Kokiri Forest? That same forest which is supposed to be between Lake Hylia and Zora Fountain, but ISN'T in ALttP?

*We know that FSA Ganondorf claims Ganon's trident. We know that he becomes the new Ganon afterward. Therefore, we also know that Ganon's power was sealed into the trident. We know that life force is tied to power, since TP Ganondorf granted Zant access to his power in exchange for housing his life force. We also know that memory is tied to life force, since TP Ganondorf remembers everything prior to his assimilation with Zant, and furthermore TP Zelda implies that her assimiliation with Midna was quite thorough ("your heart and mine were as one, however briefly"). Thus, we can conclude that FSA Ganondorf gained Ganon's memory along with the trident. So yeah, not a whole hell of a lot to shave.[/list]

ALttP Ganon's MO is very different from either OoT or WW Ganondorf. In the two previously mentioned adventures, Ganondorf uses Zelda as bait to lure Link to him so that he can have the full Triforce in one place. But, in ALttP, he stores Zelda in Turtle Rock, somewhat far from himself. He also, in his five lines, shows a lot more self-control than either OoT or WW Ganondorf. This leads me to conclude that a) He has matured faced with the explerience of his two Linkwhopin' and that b) the Triforce is complete throughout ALttP, because Ganon knows more about the Triforce than you, especially when it comes to obtaining it.

For precedent, I present TP. No one ever, ever bats an eye at Link having the Triforce on his hand. No one. Also, OoT. You never know that Link has Courage until Zelda points it out. Again, I don't know what version of LttP you played, but I can't quite see Link's hand with that kind of detail. And how do you know that you can't extract a Triforce without everyone present? The implication in TP is that Wisdom is passed to Midna, without Power being anywhere near Hyrule Castle, let alone in the Light World. Else Midna wouldn't stare at her right hand on two separate occasions after being healed. WW Ganondorf didn't need to extract Wisdom, because it was secure within Tetra. She wasn't going anywhere, after all.

So was Zelda, trapped in her little crystal. Additionally, yes, TP Link's crest was noticed by pretty much everyone that could, because they called him "chosen by the gods", that being the way that, in TP, people referred to the persons with a piece of the Triforce. (During the execution scene, the sages refer to Ganondorf having been "chosen" or something to that effect, but I'm really not sure. And the spirit say that the only reason he was not a spirit in the Twilight was that he was "chosen by the gods", and when he transforms, his Triforce glows. Which means that we SEE the Triforce, which is not the case in ALttP. And, in AoL and the Oracles, someone tells us when Link has a distinguishing mark somewhere that we the players can't see). Also, where the fuck did you pull the "Midna has the Triforce of Wisdom" from? It's not obvious at all! I'll have to replay it, but I even think that it shows Zelda having the Triforce of Wisdom at the end.

Face it, you're grasping at straws. So am I, in the "Goddesses interpreted the wish to make them expose Hyrule" thing, but at least my thing is necessary if there's another land-based adventure after WW, which I think there's enough evidence to suggest there is.

Ugh, multidimensional travel. Assuming that you believe the Dark World was destroyed after LttP, where would the Triforce go then?

It was brought to the Light World by Link. Or, IIRC, the Sacred Realm isn't a land per se, so the Triforce could theoretically just float there.

Your argument appears to rest on the fact that the Hero of Time is the only Hero mentioned in the legend, therefore WW follows OoT. I'm saying that the legend is obviously incomplete, so you can't use the legend as proof that WW follows OoT. In other words, yes Ganondorf escaped, but he was stopped again and again, until one day he succeeded, and the reason the legend doesn't say anything about that is because the legend is incomplete.

Escape from what? The Dark World was destroyed after ALttP, remember? Plus, in WW, it says that at least a Kokiri and a Zora were the Sages that called down The Flood. How can it be, post-ALttP, if the Zoras are swamp monsters and the Kokiri are gone?

Well, considering that LttP Ganon gets all of maybe five lines, I don't see the problem. Also, Link's wish undid the damage Ganon wreaked. Without knowing the wording, the Golden Land may very well have been included. This is assuming that the Dark World doesn't simply revert back to the Sacred Realm without Ganon's influence. That still means the Dark World "disappears," after all.

Well, if "all is undone", then how does the trident, obviously part of that which must be "undone", survive the "undoing"?

I'll grant you that the intro can be interpreted that way. But the intro begins like a story, so I took it to mean that MM was a Hylian legend in and of itself. However, invoking author intent is a blatant violation of SoD, and defeats the entire purpose of this discussion.

You started it when you said that "Simply saying "there once was a boy in the land of Hyrule..." would work with less confusion." That's giving author intent. You assume that the Nintendo people want to be as clear as possible, which is a dubious assumption to make, as I pointed out. I also gave a reason why they would include that line instead of something else.

You're assuming that the pieces were actually reassembled after AoL, when it's more likely that it was a return to the pre-LoZ status quo, but with Link holding Courage.

No, because the whole point of AoL was to assemble the full Triforce to use its full power to wake up the sleeping Zelda.

Like I said, the Gorons were either the boulders bouncing down Death Mountain, or off elsewhere in the north-western mountain range. Take your pick. As for the Minish, I don't get what you're asking here. Are you asking why the Minish aren't mentioned, or where they physically were? The Minish are irrelevant to most of the other stories, and they're small enough that you wouldn't be able to tell they were there anyway.

Okay. But you still didn't explain the phasing in and out of the Hero of Time legend.

It seems to be a new Ganondorf, anyway.

I agree. But where did the Triforce of Power come from? *ponders*

[Elaro]

And just to chip in, it's somewhat implied that Link's Awakening occurs after Oracle of Ages/Seasons since Link departs on a boat at the end of a Linked Game.

On the other hand, LA has the final nightmare take the form of Agahnim. Who isn't present in Oracles, IIRC.

I liked that idea too.

[Darth Yoshi]

I'm trying to argue that the peoples of the Great Sea are still sufficiently intelligent to innovate. Besides, the kind of magic you describe has always, in the LoZ mythos, been associated with the supernatural: mysticism (referring to a quote from OoT, saying that seeing the truth requires years of training, by that probably meaning meditation), gifts from Fairies, or as natural characteristics (Hylians, Twili, Ooca, monsters), or from the divine (Triforce, Sages).So, I'm saying that being capable of using magic is not learned, but the spells are. So, if we not seeing humans using magic in WW (even though there it's suggested, like Mr. Butler Door, or The Seer), it's probably because there aren't a lot of people who can do it.

Innovate, yes. But it's difficult to innovate when you have no spell base to work from, which was what I was getting at, albeit rather poorly.

"Ground ourselves in reality". Right. It's not that we're discussing a fictional tale of magic and fantasy. Uh-huh. [/sarcasm] But you're completely right though. Well, good. All that remains as ST evidence is TP Ganondorf's Triforce of Power. He can't have it, because there's OoT Ganondorf that has it who is stuck in the Sacred Realm. So if TP was after WW, that would work. Ish. The problem with using AoL is that it fubars any timeline theory we try to make, because the events that cause the Triforce to be broken and the "naming princesses Zelda" tradition to get started make a fun little paradox put together. Since, in OoT, the princess is named Zelda, we can assume that the tradition has already been established. But that would mean that the Triforce should be separate at the beginning of OoT and the Triforce of Courage hidden in the Valley of Death, when that's clearly not the case. The only possible way to reconcile that would be to put LoZ/AoL before OoT, to give a full Triforce. With all the wierd implications that might have. That Triforce of Time theory is looking better and better, though.

Don't be a dipshit. "As much as possible", I said. Under SoD, we assume that a fictional universe works like our own unless explicitly shown otherwise, in which case we assume that universe works like our own except when it doesn't. I'm well aware that magic and deus ex machina and hordes of monsters aren't realistic.

Who says that the Zelda naming convention has to be in place for the princesses to be named Zelda? People get named in honor of other people all the time. It's just that before the AoL backstory, the unimportant princesses sometimes got named other things as well.

Well, it was a heckuva lot more thorough than in WW. We explored what, 5 floors in ALttP? And only two rooms in WW. And yet, no windows in ALttP! That should tell us something. Maybe the Link of ALttP is actually OoT Link who time-travelled! And he spent all his adventure correcting people, but we've never heard him. That's the only thing that would explain the windows being present in a post-ALttP castle. Because if the ALttP people had access to those painted windows, they would know that the "Seven Wise Men" of their legends were actually "One Wise Goron, One Wise Kokiri, One Wise Zora, One Wise Sheikah, Two Wise Women, and One Wise Man" (counting Gerudo as women). They would also be thouroughly squicked out at the thought of maidens being descendant from a living rock, a fish, and a kid(!!). (It's probable that the charges of Sagehood was passed on through apprenticeship at the beginning, and not bloodline. Yeah.)

What, you're saying that a castle never undergoes renovation? Or gets razed and rebuilt, like after TP?

The GBA port retcons "wise men" to "Sages", so that's a moot point. But also remember that the term "men" doesn't necessarily refer simply to males. You're not going to argue that for every "race of men" in fantasy, there were no women, are you?

I say he's dead (or moved someplace else, but probably dead) along with the Koroks. Because there's so much time passed between WW and ALttP, the Great Deku Tree, like all living beings, passed away. Or maybe he wasn't divinely needed anymore. I don't know. Anyway, it's much more discrediting for your theiry if the Great Deku Tree isn't in ALttP, because we have evidence that he's there before, and that he's there after. So where is he in ALttP? Kokiri Forest? That same forest which is supposed to be between Lake Hylia and Zora Fountain, but ISN'T in ALttP?

Kokiri. Insular. Not concerned with Hylian affairs. Unless you want to say that LttP Hyrule really was shaped like a diamond, the map isn't totally accurate.

ALttP Ganon's MO is very different from either OoT or WW Ganondorf. In the two previously mentioned adventures, Ganondorf uses Zelda as bait to lure Link to him so that he can have the full Triforce in one place. But, in ALttP, he stores Zelda in Turtle Rock, somewhat far from himself. He also, in his five lines, shows a lot more self-control than either OoT or WW Ganondorf. This leads me to conclude that a) He has matured faced with the explerience of his two Linkwhopin' and that b) the Triforce is complete throughout ALttP, because Ganon knows more about the Triforce than you, especially when it comes to obtaining it.

What? Ganon was at Turtle Rock. That was the whole point of the giant bat thing coming out of Agahnim after you beat him. And WW Ganondorf seemed to have plenty self-control, until the King basically fucked him over with his wish. LttP Ganon never has that severe a setback.

So was Zelda, trapped in her little crystal. Additionally, yes, TP Link's crest was noticed by pretty much everyone that could, because they called him "chosen by the gods", that being the way that, in TP, people referred to the persons with a piece of the Triforce. (During the execution scene, the sages refer to Ganondorf having been "chosen" or something to that effect, but I'm really not sure. And the spirit say that the only reason he was not a spirit in the Twilight was that he was "chosen by the gods", and when he transforms, his Triforce glows. Which means that we SEE the Triforce, which is not the case in ALttP. And, in AoL and the Oracles, someone tells us when Link has a distinguishing mark somewhere that we the players can't see). Also, where the fuck did you pull the "Midna has the Triforce of Wisdom" from? It's not obvious at all! I'll have to replay it, but I even think that it shows Zelda having the Triforce of Wisdom at the end.

Face it, you're grasping at straws. So am I, in the "Goddesses interpreted the wish to make them expose Hyrule" thing, but at least my thing is necessary if there's another land-based adventure after WW, which I think there's enough evidence to suggest there is.

Don't strawman me. I didn't say "Midna obviously had Wisdom". I said the game implied Midna had Wisdom by showing her staring at her right hand on two separate occasions after Zelda heals her. And of course Zelda has Wisdom at the end. Midna gives it back to her to revive her.

TP Link is never actually referred as a Hero until he gets the Hero's clothes, and those who do call him "chosen" are beings of magic who can likely sense Courage without seeing the crest. However, you are correct that Power is called "chosen power of the gods." Regardless, OoT Link still didn't know he had Courage, which means that unless he never took off his gloves during the whole time he spent with Courage, the crest isn't always visible. Granted, he might have seen the crest and asked Sheik about it only to be blown off (Shiek does that a lot), but there's no evidence of that. In any case, IIRC in WW once Link completes Courage it flashes on his hand and then vanishes until the cutscene where Ganondorf wails on him.

It was brought to the Light World by Link. Or, IIRC, the Sacred Realm isn't a land per se, so the Triforce could theoretically just float there.

The Sacred Realm is supposed to be where the Three left Hyrule for the heavens. I interpret that to mean that, at least originally, the Sacred Realm was a part of Hyrule. But the ancient Sages sealed it into another dimension after the initial Triforce wars. Everything we know about Hyrule so far is that the dimension Hyrule is in is the one created on purpose by the Three, unlike Termina.

Escape from what? The Dark World was destroyed after ALttP, remember? Plus, in WW, it says that at least a Kokiri and a Zora were the Sages that called down The Flood. How can it be, post-ALttP, if the Zoras are swamp monsters and the Kokiri are gone?

If Agahnim breaking the seal doesn't count as escaping, then it refers to the Four Sword. And I already said that the LttP Zoras are overzealous guards attacking tresspassers. TP Zora guards do wear freaky looking helmets, after all. If the period immediately leading up to LttP really was a time of turmoil, the Zoras might very well succumb to xenophobic paranoia or something. Post-11Sept01 America, anyone?

Well, if "all is undone", then how does the trident, obviously part of that which must be "undone", survive the "undoing"?

I'll freely admit that this is wild speculation, since we don't know how Link worded the wish, but if what was undone was "the damage Ganon caused", then the trident wouldn't be included, since it isn't "damage".

You started it when you said that "Simply saying "there once was a boy in the land of Hyrule..." would work with less confusion." That's giving author intent. You assume that the Nintendo people want to be as clear as possible, which is a dubious assumption to make, as I pointed out. I also gave a reason why they would include that line instead of something else.

Well, when reading I kinda have to assume that the text means what it says, or else there's no point.

No, because the whole point of AoL was to assemble the full Triforce to use its full power to wake up the sleeping Zelda.

I'll admit my own ignorance here, but I was under the impression that the curse would be in effect until someone coughed up Courage.

Okay. But you still didn't explain the phasing in and out of the Hero of Time legend.

Out of time, get to this later.

I agree. But where did the Triforce of Power come from? *ponders*

I figured he was born with it, much like Link. At least, that's how I interpreted the Sage's narrative about Ganondorf's botched execution.

[Dooey Jo]

If the absence of the Deku Tree and Kokiri means that WW have to come before ALttP, then that means WW also have to come before TP, as there is no Deku Tree or Kokiri there either. And if the huge dead tree in TP counts as the Deku Tree, then maybe the Tree Temple in ALttP can count as one as well...

Edit: And there is the ocarina boy in ALttP.

[Elaro]

Innovate, yes. But it's difficult to innovate when you have no spell base to work from, which was what I was getting at, albeit rather poorly.

The point I was getting at, also rather poorly, was that magic and spelles were something supernatural and esoteric, and that it wasn't really possible to innovate spells. Although now that I think about it, the Sharp Brothers and the guy from OoA sorta disprove this, because they researched magical songs. Maybe different types of magic have different origins, aka nonmusical spells are unresearchable but musical spells are?

Still, if the the people do come down from their mountains, they could re-learn everything they knew about magic, given enough time. Since I showed that the people of the Great Sea can still invent new things, even if it's not magical, then they still possess the intellectual agility to research magic. Ergo, whether or not they possess magical knowledge during WW is relatively moot.

Don't be a dipshit. "As much as possible", I said. Under SoD, we assume that a fictional universe works like our own unless explicitly shown otherwise, in which case we assume that universe works like our own except when it doesn't. I'm well aware that magic and deus ex machina and hordes of monsters aren't realistic.

I'm just saying that a split timeline is possible in a fantastical setting. In a universe with parallel worlds, could it be possible that there be parallel timelines?

Who says that the Zelda naming convention has to be in place for the princesses to be named Zelda? People get named in honor of other people all the time. It's just that before the AoL backstory, the unimportant princesses sometimes got named other things as well.

Okay, but the fact that seven princesses named "Zelda" appeared before the AoL backstory doesn't seem a mite improbable to you? Because the events that result in the naming convention must come immediatly (as in, "without any games with the Triforce in between") before LoZ/AoL, (because the paper that Link reads was written around the time of those events, because it mentions those events and the location of the Triforce of Courage at the time, and the location hasn't changed since then), that means that the princesses before LoZ/AoL weren't bound to be named Zelda.

What, you're saying that a castle never undergoes renovation? Or gets razed and rebuilt, like after TP?

No, I'm saying that if ALttP came before WW, the people who built Hyrule Castle didn't know the details of the actual events of OoT, and then they knew those details when they rebuilt Hyrule Castle. That sounds a little unbelievable, don't you think?

The GBA port retcons "wise men" to "Sages", so that's a moot point. But also remember that the term "men" doesn't necessarily refer simply to males. You're not going to argue that for every "race of men" in fantasy, there were no women, are you?

My point is, the people of ALttP thought the Sages were all humans, else why would they (and Agahnim) think that the descendants of the Sages be uniquely human? Wouldn't Agahnim try to sacrifice a Zora, too? As to the oddity of Agahnim not knowing Ganon's history, well, I see Agahnim and Zant in the same way. Agahnim housed Ganon's life force, but not his memories. And if you say that that doesn't happen, I counter that it happened in TP, because obviously Zant didn't have Ganondorf's memories, else he wouldn't have mistaken him for his god.

Kokiri. Insular. Not concerned with Hylian affairs. Unless you want to say that LttP Hyrule really was shaped like a diamond, the map isn't totally accurate.

A Kokiri named Fado in WW is the Sage of Wind. So, where are the Kokiri in ALttP? Also, while the fine details of ALttP's map can be questioned, the broad strokes, like the locations of entire forests and villages, can be considered.

What? Ganon was at Turtle Rock. That was the whole point of the giant bat thing coming out of Agahnim after you beat him.

What game did you fucking play? Agahnim was at Ganon's Tower, and that bat thing flew to the Pyramid of Power. Ganon was never close to Turtle Rock. Also, by trying to argue that the three were all at the same place, you concede that I was right in saying that the reunification of the triforce whose pieces are hidden in people requires that those people be at the same place.

And WW Ganondorf seemed to have plenty self-control, until the King basically fucked him over with his wish. LttP Ganon never has that severe a setback.

Good point. Conceded.

Don't strawman me. I didn't say "Midna obviously had Wisdom". I said the game implied Midna had Wisdom by showing her staring at her right hand on two separate occasions after Zelda heals her. And of course Zelda has Wisdom at the end. Midna gives it back to her to revive her.

Or maybe Midna looks at her hands because she's just been changed from shadow to light, and it's a new sensation for her. Again, you're grasping at straws.

TP Link is never actually referred as a Hero until he gets the Hero's clothes, and those who do call him "chosen" are beings of magic who can likely sense Courage without seeing the crest. However, you are correct that Power is called "chosen power of the gods." Regardless, OoT Link still didn't know he had Courage, which means that unless he never took off his gloves during the whole time he spent with Courage, the crest isn't always visible. Granted, he might have seen the crest and asked Sheik about it only to be blown off (Shiek does that a lot), but there's no evidence of that. In any case, IIRC in WW once Link completes Courage it flashes on his hand and then vanishes until the cutscene where Ganondorf wails on him.

My point wasn't that Link himself noticed when he has the Triforce of Courage, but that other people noticed. In TP, WW, and OoT, games where we know for sure that Link has a piece of the Triforce, somebody notices. Nobody notices in ALttP. So, he doesn't have it in ALttP.

The Sacred Realm is supposed to be where the Three left Hyrule for the heavens. I interpret that to mean that, at least originally, the Sacred Realm was a part of Hyrule. But the ancient Sages sealed it into another dimension after the initial Triforce wars. Everything we know about Hyrule so far is that the dimension Hyrule is in is the one created on purpose by the Three, unlike Termina.

I interpreted that to mean that it was in a part of Hyrule that was sealed off by the Sages. What does OoT say? That the way to the Sacred Realm was sealed by the Sages?

If Agahnim breaking the seal doesn't count as escaping, then it refers to the Four Sword. And I already said that the LttP Zoras are overzealous guards attacking tresspassers. TP Zora guards do wear freaky looking helmets, after all. If the period immediately leading up to LttP really was a time of turmoil, the Zoras might very well succumb to xenophobic paranoia or something. Post-11Sept01 America, anyone?

The ALttP Zoras shoot fireballs out of their mouths. So, they're not the dolphin-like Zoras, of which one was a Sage of Earth.

I'll freely admit that this is wild speculation, since we don't know how Link worded the wish, but if what was undone was "the damage Ganon caused", then the trident wouldn't be included, since it isn't "damage".

Following that interpretation leads us to the conclusion that the followers of Ganon wouldn't vanish either, because they're not part of the "damage".

Well, when reading I kinda have to assume that the text means what it says, or else there's no point.

Oh, yeah. I agree. But there are many interpretations of what the text means. Therein lies the problem.

I'll admit my own ignorance here, but I was under the impression that the curse would be in effect until someone coughed up Courage.

Link needed the full Triforce in order to make a wish to awaken the sleeping Zelda.

[Darth Yoshi]

Okay. But you still didn't explain the phasing in and out of the Hero of Time legend.

Out of time, get to this later.

The OoT legends say the "Hero of Time" would appear. After the Imprisoning War, "Hero of Time" was shortened to simply "Hero", so that the first Hero would always be remembered with his own title. But when the legends were jumbled together after the Flood, the Hero of Time became the only Hero.

The point I was getting at, also rather poorly, was that magic and spelles were something supernatural and esoteric, and that it wasn't really possible to innovate spells. Although now that I think about it, the Sharp Brothers and the guy from OoA sorta disprove this, because they researched magical songs. Maybe different types of magic have different origins, aka nonmusical spells are unresearchable but musical spells are?

Still, if the the people do come down from their mountains, they could re-learn everything they knew about magic, given enough time. Since I showed that the people of the Great Sea can still invent new things, even if it's not magical, then they still possess the intellectual agility to research magic. Ergo, whether or not they possess magical knowledge during WW is relatively moot.

Well, magic can studied in detail, since someone had to have figured how to infuse magic into the various magical items we've seen. Hell, the Twili had apparently learned and mastered everything there was to know about Shadow magic before their banishment. On the other hand, that still requires some sort of base to work from. To draw from the technology analogy again, if we were reduced to medieval technology levels, with our knowledge base almost completely wiped out, it'd take a very long time to work ourselves back up to current levels. Part of that would be due to a resurgence of religious zealotry, but in the case of Hyrule, we may be able to substitute with an anti-magic backlash (especially if magic is scapegoated as the cause of the Flood). Am I making sense?

I'm just saying that a split timeline is possible in a fantastical setting. In a universe with parallel worlds, could it be possible that there be parallel timelines?

As I understand it, for multiple timelines to exist within one multiverse, each timeline occupies its own dimension. Which means that a new dimension is created every time the timeline splits. I'm sure that violates a major law of physics or two, which admittedly can be worked around with deus ex machina, but I dislike using deus ex machina.

Okay, but the fact that seven princesses named "Zelda" appeared before the AoL backstory doesn't seem a mite improbable to you? Because the events that result in the naming convention must come immediatly (as in, "without any games with the Triforce in between") before LoZ/AoL, (because the paper that Link reads was written around the time of those events, because it mentions those events and the location of the Triforce of Courage at the time, and the location hasn't changed since then), that means that the princesses before LoZ/AoL weren't bound to be named Zelda.

Well, you might as well wonder why all the Heroes are named Link, or why people named Ganondorf tend to be evil megalomaniacs. Destiny is a bitch.

And just to clarify, you're saying that the paper Link reads was written during the time of the AoL backstory, right?

No, I'm saying that if ALttP came before WW, the people who built Hyrule Castle didn't know the details of the actual events of OoT, and then they knew those details when they rebuilt Hyrule Castle. That sounds a little unbelievable, don't you think?

Ah, I see what you're saying now. But did pre-Flood Hylians know the full details of OoT? As I recall, the only OoT details in WW are the mentioning of the Hero of Time by name, and the pictures of the OoT Sages. The portraits can easily be explained away as having been archived somewhere, forgotten about, and then rediscovered by some plucky archaeologist with an unhealthy interest in ancient legends.

My point is, the people of ALttP thought the Sages were all humans, else why would they (and Agahnim) think that the descendants of the Sages be uniquely human? Wouldn't Agahnim try to sacrifice a Zora, too? As to the oddity of Agahnim not knowing Ganon's history, well, I see Agahnim and Zant in the same way. Agahnim housed Ganon's life force, but not his memories. And if you say that that doesn't happen, I counter that it happened in TP, because obviously Zant didn't have Ganondorf's memories, else he wouldn't have mistaken him for his god.

They thought the surviving descendants were Hylian. Bloodlines do die out, after all.

Regardless, how often does the average Hylian see a non-Hylian Sage? The old Hylian accounts—if written during a time of relative interracial harmony—might not even specify the races of the Sages, taking it for granted that people would know the Sages weren't all Hylian. Imagine the uproar that would cause, when newly discovered evidence suggests that there was a Gerudo Sage, of all things.

Anyway, I don't believe Agahnim was possessed until after the seal was broken, so whether or not he knew the Sages weren't all human doesn't really matter. As far as Zant goes, his assimilation wasn't complete like in FSA. After all, he serves as a temporary vessel for Ganondorf, until he could restore his body. And I don't think Zant really believed Ganondorf was a god, and only referred to him as a god in the same way that we might refer to someone with a lot of skill at something as a "god", but I'll admit that I'm talking out of my ass here, and won't even try to defend that.

A Kokiri named Fado in WW is the Sage of Wind. So, where are the Kokiri in ALttP? Also, while the fine details of ALttP's map can be questioned, the broad strokes, like the locations of entire forests and villages, can be considered.

Alright, amended to "Kokiri are insular and aside from those called by destiny, don't concern themselves with Hylian affairs." Remember, the Great Deku Tree misled the Kokiri about the world outside the forest. Depending on whether or not the Kokiri Sages agreed with the Great Deku Tree's reasons for isolating the other Kokiri from the world, the Sages may very well be the only Kokiri to interact with the Hylians. And Kokiri, without knowing their ages, are virtually indistinguishable from Hylians.

What game did you fucking play? Agahnim was at Ganon's Tower, and that bat thing flew to the Pyramid of Power. Ganon was never close to Turtle Rock. Also, by trying to argue that the three were all at the same place, you concede that I was right in saying that the reunification of the triforce whose pieces are hidden in people requires that those people be at the same place.

I'm saying that the bat thing that flew out of Agahnim was Ganon. Agahnim, during the battle at Turtle Rock, was possessed by Ganon. When he loses, that bat thing flies out and knocks a hole into the top of the pyramid. When Link follows, he finds Ganon. Ergo, the bat thing was Ganon.

Point about forcibly extracting the Triforce. But anyway, it seems to be possible to willingly surrender the Triforce, since people had to get Wisdom and Courage somehow to fragment them, especially when Power was inconveniently located inside Ganon. TP seems to indicate that if left alone, Courage will pass from Hero to Hero, so at some point a Hero gave up Courage.

Or maybe Midna looks at her hands because she's just been changed from shadow to light, and it's a new sensation for her. Again, you're grasping at straws.

But her right hand specifically? And not once, but twice? If she looked at her hands right after being healed, sure. But later on she stares at her right hand again. There was obviously something up with that hand.

My point wasn't that Link himself noticed when he has the Triforce of Courage, but that other people noticed. In TP, WW, and OoT, games where we know for sure that Link has a piece of the Triforce, somebody notices. Nobody notices in ALttP. So, he doesn't have it in ALttP.

The only beings we've seen sense when someone has the Triforce are either skilled mages who also bear the other pieces, or holy spirits. Not a whole lot of holy spirits in LttP, which leaves the mages. Agahnim didn't have Power to begin with, so he's irrelevant. Assuming Zelda actually bore Wisdom rather than simply holding on to it (like pre-LoZ Zelda), she might have sensed Courage, but we don't know the extent of her magic. Ganon would have, but he wouldn't need to say anything about Courage except that he was going to kill Link for it.

I interpreted that to mean that it was in a part of Hyrule that was sealed off by the Sages. What does OoT say? That the way to the Sacred Realm was sealed by the Sages?

Something along those lines, and to date the Sacred Realm can only be accessed via portals. Based on that and the fact that the Dark World is a twisted mirror of Hyrule in LttP and FSA, I think the Sacred Realm was sealed into a pocket dimension.

The ALttP Zoras shoot fireballs out of their mouths. So, they're not the dolphin-like Zoras, of which one was a Sage of Earth.

Dude, Zoras can use magic. Besides, those aren't really fireballs. Not like those centaur things on Death Mountain. Or even the Fire Rod.

Following that interpretation leads us to the conclusion that the followers of Ganon wouldn't vanish either, because they're not part of the "damage".

Assuming that Ganon's minions don't go back into hibernation after his defeat (the Deku Scrubs in FSA say Ganon's power was what woke them from their slumber) or that the suddenly pure Sacred Realm doesn't kill them outright, the Hylians sure as hell won't take kindly to Moblins occupying the Sacred Realm. They shouldn't have too much trouble mopping up Ganon's forces, since Link's already killed the bosses. I mean, the army has to be good for something, right?

This is all assuming, of course, that the Dark World didn't naturally revert back to the Sacred Realm after Ganon's influence is removed. The return of the Dark World in FSA Dark World apparently indicates that the Dark World is tied to Ganon's dark influence.

Oh, yeah. I agree. But there are many interpretations of what the text means. Therein lies the problem.

Well, author intent has nothing to do with what I was getting at, which was that the MM opening read like a story, kinda like "you know that legend about the Hero of Time? I'll tell you what happened to him afterwards..."

Link needed the full Triforce in order to make a wish to awaken the sleeping Zelda.

Okay, the game only says Link needs to find Courage, but in the manual Impa asks Link to reassemble the pieces. Since the game doesn't directly contradict the manual, I'll concede that. But that simply means the Triforce was separated again, at some currently unknown point. People get uppity and go after the Triforce from time to time, after all. Few of them actually are worthy of it. We know that Ganondorf isn't the only person to seek the Triforce. If nothing else, Ganondorf might have done it himself during the events that led up to the Flood, deciding that a power boost was worth having to hunt down the other two pieces.