Uber Constituition vs SSD

[Darth Wong]

OK, let's go with the sonic-weapon calcs then. Based on sonic-weapon calcs, the E-Nil can handle zero joules of energy, since that is the limit for sonic wave propagation through vacuum irrespective of power at source. Also note that "decibels" are actually a multiplier, and are meaningless without a clearly specified base unit; this is implied in acoustic decibels but not in, say, signal-to-noise ratio decibels.

I don't see this making the E-Nil's job any easier

[Alyeska]

OK, let's go with the sonic-weapon calcs then. Based on sonic-weapon calcs, the E-Nil can handle zero joules of energy, since that is the limit for sonic wave propagation through vacuum irrespective of power at source. Also note that "decibels" are actually a multiplier, and are meaningless without a clearly specified base unit; this is implied in acoustic decibels but not in, say, signal-to-noise ratio decibels.

I don't see this making the E-Nil's job any easier

The thing is that Scotty stated the decibles impacting the hull itself. It IS possible for sound to travel through space, just not very effectively. Through some means or another the planetary weapon was able to cause sound to travel through space and it fired on freaking powerful shot of it.

[VF5SS]

Ah but the main weakness of the E-Nil is that it can only pitch up and turn slightly to the left... or right if they mirrored the footage.

[2000AD]

Just when did the E-nil take a hit simular to a DS shot?

[Perinquus]

I think they are referring to the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine", but that weapon was not blowing planets up like the Death Star. We know this for certain, since Decker's crew were able to radio him and beg for help while the planet was being destroyed, which they could hardly do if the planet had been blown up the way Alderaan was.

[Alyeska]

Just when did the E-nil take a hit simular to a DS shot?

Actually its more powerful then a DS shot. In a particular episode the Enterpise is hit by a sonic weapon. Scotty states the number of decibles impacting the hull itself. From that you can derive firepower.

[Darth Wong]

The thing is that Scotty stated the decibles impacting the hull itself.

Did you not bother reading what I wrote? Decibels are a ratio, not an absolute value. It is customary to assume a certain base unit when describing acoustic decibels, but in the absence of that assumption (which does not apply to many real-life uses of the word "decibel", particularly in the field of electronics), you've got nothing.

It IS possible for sound to travel through space, just not very effectively.

Justify this statement. Sound requires a medium.

Through some means or another the planetary weapon was able to cause sound to travel through space and it fired on freaking powerful shot of it.

Wrong. If it was "freaking powerful", then the energy should have gone somewhere. Where did it go? It didn't hurt the Enterprise, so it must have affected the nearest piece of matter, which would be the planet itself. Was the planet blown up? No. Was the planet even mildly shaken? No. So there was no "freaking powerful" blast.

Thermodynamics are a bitch for Trekkie pseudoscience. Deal with it, and try not to get in over your head again.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Without a base unit (or a point of reference as to what is "0dB",) trying to estimate what actually hit the hull is quite meaningless.

http://www.steel.sakura.ne.jp/ensub/con ... noise.html

You see three standards for noise. Notice how a small change in the assumption of "bottom intensity" changes the numbers. Scotty probably measured it at a distance of 1m with a bottom intensity of 1 yoctopascal, if not less.

[jegs2]

The uber-wankmobile Connie ubership of utter doom and annihilation pops in at Warp 99999999999999999 and opens up on the SSD with 99999999999999999999999TT phasers, missing the SSD and accidentally vaporizing the SW galaxy...

[Crazy_Vasey]

So what are the highest end calcs for the E-nil that aren't horribly retarded like the sonic weapon ones? There's gotta be something behind the uber connie stuff!

[Darth Wong]

So what are the highest end calcs for the E-nil that aren't horribly retarded like the sonic weapon ones? There's gotta be something behind the uber connie stuff!

That's pretty much it. Take that away, and all you've got is a ship whose entire arsenal can't match a 100 megaton blast (from "Doomsday Machine").

[VF5SS]

Don't forget that the E-Nil cannot travel in a straight line while at warp.

[Perinquus]

What I generally hear from the trektards is that because the Doomsday machine hit the Enterprise with its antiproton bean (Pure antiproton, I mean absolutely PURE!), and its paint wasn't even scorched, it can surive "planet killing firepower". Of course it never even occurs to them that the doomsday machine was firing at less than full power, and that the doomsday machine's weapon was not in the same league as the death star superlaser. They just see the Enterprise hit by a planet killer and survive, and the drool starts running down their chins.

The other justification I have heard comes from the episode "The Ultimate Computer" when the M5 takes control of the Enterprise and defeats 5 other Constitution class starships, there is no visible damage to the ships that are reported as having all crew killed, or with large numbers of dead and wounded aboard. This is somehow taken as proof that while the phasers must have really pounded the hell out of the ships, and possibly superheated the hulls, broiling the crew inside, the hulls themselves are made of such sooper dooper, unbelievably, holy shit Batman, trekwanktm superalloy, that the hulls themselves weren't damaged at all.

Of course, the trektards gleefully ignore the rampaging illogic and implausibility of these arguments, but anything which will allow them their masturbatory Trek fantasies of invincibility will be siezed with fanatical enthusiasm.

[SPOOFE]

So what are the highest end calcs for the E-nil that aren't horribly retarded like the sonic weapon ones?

The "next best thing" is the Planet-Killer calc, and a recent thread pretty much did away with that one. As I postulated in that thread, there's no reason to believe that the PK's primitive processing wasn't automatically using only the bare minimum energy required to slowly cut the Enterprise to pieces, just like it does to planets.

Further, if we're using Uber-Ridiculous-Boneheaded High End, there's the 79 yottaton calc derived from the Solo/Dodonna quotes from ANH...

[SPOOFE]

Hmph.... getting TOS mixed with B5.... of course I'm referring to the Doomsday Machine (although I can't type that term without thinking of Ming the Merciless, wearing his fruity skullcap, laughing oh-so-maniacally).

[TheDarkling]

I think its pretty clear that the Connies engines easily outrun TNG warp drives for some rather odd reason.

I will take a look if I can find the incidents behind the uber connie that were posted at sb.com (I think there were more than the two mentioned), although I make no claims about their validity.

[SPOOFE]

I think its pretty clear that the Connies engines easily outrun TNG warp drives for some rather odd reason.

Actually...

Trek technology in general has proven itself to be pretty erratic and unpredictable. In my opinion, TOS tech was far more unstable - fluctuating almost at random between "REALLY GOOD" and "deplorably bad". TNG seems to be "better" by having removed many (not all, as witnessed by the Warp Core O' Doom) of the erratic components.

[AWACS]

Wasn't there also some incident where the E (connie) was supposedly going to slag a planet?

[Alyeska]

Wasn't there also some incident where the E (connie) was supposedly going to slag a planet?

General order 24, level the surface of a planet.

[seanrobertson]

Who would win, Kirk in his classic enterprise from the original series, with the highest end calc's available, or an SSD with Vader in command.

What are the highest calcs for the enterprise btw?

I don't know, but I've encountered the so-called "Cult of Constitution"
before. Most of their arguments were pretty underwhelming.

First, firepower:

The CoC said that the E-nil had at least Star Destroyer level
firepower, or words to that effect. They pointed to the episode
with Garth of Izar; specifically, how the E-nil could try to knock
down the penal colonies' shield by striking it at the "weakest
point at the opposite side of the planet," yet such an assault
would somehow kill Kirk and co. on the other side of the globe.

They cite other such things as the Planet Killer striking the E-nil's
hull with its antiproton beam, various references to General Order
24, the mythical (and always, oddly, German) "uber-antimatter"
and God knows what else.

The fact remains, Kirk era ships were threatened by a jet fighter's
weapons. The E-nil WAS unshielded, and it was expected that
the fighter carried low kiloton-ranged warheads (which would do
the expected damage naturally), which indicates a hull can
be breached by perhaps a few terajoules of energy.

No conflict with TWOK. Phaser blasts with similar effect did serious
damage to both the E and Khan's ship.

Then we have the whole matter of phasers vs. the Planet Killer's
maw. Exploding the USS Constellation's impulse engines
was to create a 97 point-something megaton blast inside the
maw, which disabled the PK.

It is actually fair to point out that photon torpedoes were
probably useless at this point. We're told that the PK
somehow "deactivated antimatter" (whatever that means).
Thus, photorps shouldn't work; moreover, we can't
make a linear comparison between their torpedoes and
the 100 MT explosion.

However, as I said...what about *phasers*?! Surely if, as
the CoC contends, the phaser banks could manage a blast
at least equivalent to 100 MT. But they couldn't. Why else
would they sacrifice a no doubt expensive, one of roughly
a DOZEN heavy cruisers?!

I've always hated that "E-nil can kill the E-D" shit. When
Cronan started it many years ago, it was funny, and meant
as such. (I sure wish we still had him around. He was wild!)

Now, though, it's taken seriously. The E-nil, as beloved as
it might be by some, is a pissant next to a Galaxy
or Sovereign. And we already know how those
two stack up to the mighty Imperator...

[Darth Servo]

Wasn't there also some incident where the E (connie) was supposedly going to slag a planet?

General order 24, level the surface of a planet.

Hit the major population centers.

[Alyeska]

Who would win, Kirk in his classic enterprise from the original series, with the highest end calc's available, or an SSD with Vader in command.

What are the highest calcs for the enterprise btw?

I don't know, but I've encountered the so-called "Cult of Constitution"
before. Most of their arguments were pretty underwhelming.

First, firepower:

The CoC said that the E-nil had at least Star Destroyer level
firepower, or words to that effect. They pointed to the episode
with Garth of Izar; specifically, how the E-nil could try to knock
down the penal colonies' shield by striking it at the "weakest
point at the opposite side of the planet," yet such an assault
would somehow kill Kirk and co. on the other side of the globe.

They cite other such things as the Planet Killer striking the E-nil's
hull with its antiproton beam, various references to General Order
24, the mythical (and always, oddly, German) "uber-antimatter"
and God knows what else.

The fact remains, Kirk era ships were threatened by a jet fighter's
weapons. The E-nil WAS unshielded, and it was expected that
the fighter carried low kiloton-ranged warheads (which would do
the expected damage naturally), which indicates a hull can
be breached by perhaps a few terajoules of energy.

No conflict with TWOK. Phaser blasts with similar effect did serious
damage to both the E and Khan's ship.

Then we have the whole matter of phasers vs. the Planet Killer's
maw. Exploding the USS Constellation's impulse engines
was to create a 97 point-something megaton blast inside the
maw, which disabled the PK.

It is actually fair to point out that photon torpedoes were
probably useless at this point. We're told that the PK
somehow "deactivated antimatter" (whatever that means).
Thus, photorps shouldn't work; moreover, we can't
make a linear comparison between their torpedoes and
the 100 MT explosion.

However, as I said...what about *phasers*?! Surely if, as
the CoC contends, the phaser banks could manage a blast
at least equivalent to 100 MT. But they couldn't. Why else
would they sacrifice a no doubt expensive, one of roughly
a DOZEN heavy cruisers?!

I've always hated that "E-nil can kill the E-D" shit. When
Cronan started it many years ago, it was funny, and meant
as such. (I sure wish we still had him around. He was wild!)

Now, though, it's taken seriously. The E-nil, as beloved as
it might be by some, is a pissant next to a Galaxy
or Sovereign. And we already know how those
two stack up to the mighty Imperator...

Sean, this thread does not care about ANYTHING from past TOS. The idea is to take TOS itself. This thread also does not care about ANY low figures for Trek, only the highest ones. As logical as that is, it has no bearing in the thread.

[seanrobertson]

I think its pretty clear that the Connies engines easily outrun TNG warp drives for some rather odd reason.

I will take a look if I can find the incidents behind the uber connie that were posted at sb.com (I think there were more than the two mentioned), although I make no claims about their validity.

I remember the stuff about how the E-nil was supposedly
faster than its TNG counterparts.

In one episode, the E-nil is thrown 990 light years away
from whatever position (maybe the show with the Metrons?
I don't remember). They're supposed to make the
return trip in a matter of hours, thus making them
thousands of times faster than VGR ever dreams of.

Then we've got all of the colloquial talk about going
to the "center of the galaxy" in Trek V, which is too weak
to even repeat here.

While I was reading all of the arguments about how fast
the E-nil was, I recalled the episode with Mr. Atoz on
Sarpedion. He had a machine called an "Atavaceron" or
some-such which allowed time travel. Maybe "Tomorrow
is Yesterday"?

Anyway, Spock travels back to a time in which
he and Bones meet this hot blond in some kind
of Ice Age. She, herself, had been stuck in that time
by some futuristic tyrant.

Spock gets close to her--some bullshit about his
"ancestral ways" surfacing explains his emotional
attachment--and tells her, "I come from a planet
MILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS FROM HERE."

Whoa...so now Sarpedion is well OUTSIDE our galaxy?
In Andromeda, perhaps?

I don't think so.

I think what it is, as much as I hate the explanation, is
simply that light seconds, light minutes, and light years
have been misspoken a time or two in TOS.

Thus, the E-nil isn't faster than the E-D.

Then, we're back to square one.

[Alyeska]

Wasn't there also some incident where the E (connie) was supposedly going to slag a planet?

General order 24, level the surface of a planet.

Hit the major population centers.

Nope, General Order 24 does not indicate anything about population centers. It is a command to destroy the entire surface of a planet.

[Darth Servo]

Nope, General Order 24 does not indicate anything about population centers. It is a command to destroy the entire surface of a planet.

I beg to differ.

"All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our firecontrol system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."- Scotty, from "Taste of Armageddon" (after being given General Order 24 by Kirk)

Cities and installations. The INHABITED surface, NOT the entire planet.