The Holy Covenant vs. The Scrin

[Noble Ire]

I’m in the middle of Command and Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars, and I’ve been thinking about the Scrin’s potential as a “versus” candidate…

The Scene: The planet Ecclesiastical Prenomen is a relatively minor Covenant world on the edge of the Holy Empire, far from UNSC-controlled space. It is moderately populated, hosting roughly seven billion, largely Grunts, and is notable only for half a dozen enigmatic Forerunner monoliths scattered across the world's surface. As the planet's inhabitants go about the normal business of labor and worship, a meteor impacts a river valley on Ecclesiastical Prenomen's large southern continent, seeding a mysterious, rapidly-growing green crystal in the fertile soil.

Fast-forward fifty years, to the height of the Human-Covenant War, and eighty percent of the planet's surface is either partially or fully covered by Tiberium. The planetary authority has been successful in preventing the spread of the substance into the most heavily populated and significant regions of the world, but billions of civilians have been left largely to their own devices in the infested zones still capable of supporting life. Heretical movements have flourished in this disenfranchised population, and they have launched several unsuccessful efforts to retake the isolated "pure" zones of their planet. Intent on quashing the dissenting party's before the spread their heresy out of the system, the High Prophets dispatch a small task force to pacify the populace and ultimately cleanse the holy world of the poisonous Tiberium. After a lengthy campaign, the heretics are crushed and forced back into a handful of hidden strongholds. However, as the forces of the Hierarchs are consolidating their gains, the planetary satellite network picks up thirteen unidentified objects on a direct course of the world’s surface. Before the orbiting fleet can intercept them, the objects impact the areas of heaviest infestation all across the globe. In less than a day, Scrin aircraft and ground forces begin to overrun or besiege almost every population center on the planet.

The Players: The Covenant task force sent to pacify the world consists of three hundred thousand infantry, fully equipped and containing elements of all conscripted Covenant species. They are supported by several thousand Wraith and Scarab tanks, light armor squadrons, and aircraft units including dropships, Banshees, and Seraph fighters. Orbital support is provided by two assault carriers, two battlecruisers, and three frigates. However, the potency of this force is diminished by the fact that Covenant doctrine prohibits the usage of heavy plasma weaponry on the planet’s surface due to the presence of Forerunner artifacts, meaning that even localized planetary bombardment is forbidden. Most of the defensive forces are concentrated around the planet’s four largest, fortified cities as of the beginning of the invasion.

The Scrin invasion force is identical in composition to the one that assaulted Earth in Command and Conquer 3 (I believe it was borne on thirteen colony ships, but I’m not sure of that figure). No exact figure on its size was given, but it was capable of engaging almost the full extent of both Nod and GDI forces across the planet simultaneously, and probably numbered in the millions of drones.


So, which side emerges victorious and claims Ecclesiastical Prenomen for its own? Let’s assume that Covenant reinforcements will arrive in one month: can the Scrin defeat the defenders and entrench themselves in that time frame?

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd bet on the Scrin in this siuation.
The Covenant's pitiful amount of heavy, enclosed vehicles is going to be a Very Bad Thingtm against the absurd amount of auto-replicating Ripper swarms (Yeah, Elite's have shields. How many again? ).
The Scrin seem to have a better grasp of strategic doctrine than the Covies, what with aiming their civilian slaughtering for maximal effect as terror tactics, although we don't know enough of their tactical doctrine, but I doubt it's worse than the Covies.

The Scrin also have an immense advantage in terms of logistics. (That ultimate, but oft ignored factor).

The Covenant will need food ferried down or supply runs, as well as possibly planning on energy and possibly supplies from the planet. Which will be contaminated with a radioactive substance capable of reducing tanks to goo and unshielded biological creatures to hideous globs of goop.
The Scrin can build new units and the like with the "I-Chor" so abundantly available, increasing their forces and needed "supply lines" over only the fraction of the planet's surface they haven't infected yet. The Covies have not got this luxury.

Oh, and before anyone goes "Blast the Tiberium away", the Philadelphia's Ion Cannon didn't do the job, and a "normal" Sattelite Ion cannon is absurdly powerful going by the (Unquantifiable, due to the increased effects from the L-T Bomb) Cutscene. A full scale Glassing might do the job, but then you have the problem of the fact that this is against the rules .

In short, my bet's on the Scrin. "Home ground" advantage, better gear, (GDI ground equipment makes UNSC stuff look rather unimpressive, even the Commando gets better gear than a Spartan, though he looks less awesome whilst doing so) and an excessive enviromental & logistical advantage. ("Here, you must use Green Power" Cookie for the reference )

[JonathanMS]

Since they cant use their capships, the covies are going to have a hard time countering stuff like motherships and PACs.

[Noble Ire]

Since they cant use their capships, the covies are going to have a hard time countering stuff like motherships and PACs.

Keep in mind that the Covenant defense forces still have Seraph starfighters at their disposal. They lack the heavy shielding of larger Covenant warships, but they are still extremely fast and highly agile, armed with pulse lasers capable of inflicting damage on UNSC capital ships. And the orbiting task force isn't completely prohibited from using their weaponry, they just can't bombard the planet itself. Considering the fact that a single blast from the GDI ion cannon (a low kiloton-range weapon) was capable of destroying one of their colony vessels, smaller warships would be easy targets for Covenant capital ship point defenses (which are also at least low kiloton, if not more), assuming they came close enough.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Since they cant use their capships, the covies are going to have a hard time countering stuff like motherships and PACs.

Keep in mind that the Covenant defense forces still have Seraph starfighters at their disposal. They lack the heavy shielding of larger Covenant warships, but they are still extremely fast and highly agile, armed with pulse lasers capable of inflicting damage on UNSC capital ships.

Minor damage as I recall. Got exact quotes for calcs?

And the orbiting task force isn't completely prohibited from using their weaponry, they just can't bombard the planet itself.

Which in the Covenant mentality is 0% misses (How many armies do you know willing to bombard a "Meca" ).
An outstanding commander without a prophet around might risk low powered shots, but even then the degree of accuracy demanded would have to be very high.

Considering the fact that a single blast from the GDI ion cannon (a low kiloton-range weapon)

Oh Ire, I expected more from you:P. Unsubstantiated Calcs?

was capable of destroying one of their colony vessels,

It didn't destroy it, it simply split off into smaller elements without damage then began the attack.

smaller warships would be easy targets for Covenant capital ship point defenses (which are also at least low kiloton, if not more),

No arguments there considering the evidence raised in previous debates for Covie weaponry (Glassing et all).

assuming they came close enough.

That is a Very big If, considering that we've seen that Scrin ships can and do operate within the Troposphere (City blasting cut-scene, they're flying lower than skyscrapers), and if they remain close to the planet's surface (Relatively speaking of course) then the Covies won't be able to rely on their primary guns for fear of hitting the planet.

[Noble Ire]

Minor damage as I recall. Got exact quotes for calcs?

It was indeed minor damage, IIRC, but keep in mind, Scrin warship can be damaged by infantry-based rocket launchers.

Which in the Covenant mentality is 0% misses (How many armies do you know willing to bombard a "Meca" ).
An outstanding commander without a prophet around might risk low powered shots, but even then the degree of accuracy demanded would have to be very high.

If an assault carrier is positioned in the low atmosphere to provide ground support, as per standard Covenant combat doctrine, it could theoretically target flighted units with little or not chance of any notable planetary damage.

Oh Ire, I expected more from you:P. Unsubstantiated Calcs?

I'll admit, its a mere estimation on my part. Nevertheless, I don't see how the energy released, as the ion cannon does seem to release most of its energy in the form of an explosive reaction similar to a bomb, could equal more than a few kilotons, if that. Its effect appears to be similar to an ID4 city-killer, except on a smaller scale; IIRC, that weapon was calculated to be of similarly "low" energy.

It didn't destroy it, it simply split off into smaller elements without damage then began the attack.

My mistake. I haven't played the Scrin campaign yet; I had simply assumed that GDI destroyed it from the original cut-scene.

That is a Very big If, considering that we've seen that Scrin ships can and do operate within the Troposphere (City blasting cut-scene, they're flying lower than skyscrapers), and if they remain close to the planet's surface (Relatively speaking of course) then the Covies won't be able to rely on their primary guns for fear of hitting the planet.

Keep in mind, a capital ship positioned low over a city wouldn't have to employ its heavier weapons on the "buzzers" and fightercraft observed flying through the city; they could use point-defense pulse lasers, which are significantly less powerful and far more accurate at close range. And, IIRC, none of the heavier elements of the Scrin fleet are shown flying low enough to pose a similar problem.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Minor damage as I recall. Got exact quotes for calcs?

It was indeed minor damage, IIRC, but keep in mind, Scrin warship can be damaged by infantry-based rocket launchers.

Game mechanics, and Spartan's can flip tanks, hence Elites must have the density of a stone .[/quote]

Which in the Covenant mentality is 0% misses (How many armies do you know willing to bombard a "Meca" ).
An outstanding commander without a prophet around might risk low powered shots, but even then the degree of accuracy demanded would have to be very high.

If an assault carrier is positioned in the low atmosphere to provide ground support, as per standard Covenant combat doctrine, it could theoretically target flighted units with little or not chance of any notable planetary damage.

Theoretically is a very unsafe word about the Covenant, especially when they're being very cautious. The risk of the ship being shot down and crashing into an artifact alone will be a bitch.

Oh Ire, I expected more from you:P. Unsubstantiated Calcs?

I'll admit, its a mere estimation on my part. Nevertheless, I don't see how the energy released, as the ion cannon does seem to release most of its energy in the form of an explosive reaction similar to a bomb, could equal more than a few kilotons, if that.

The effects of it in the L-T cut scene seem far, far more impressive than that. [I am currently unable to find the video hosted online, if some member with current access to the game could kindly rip it for potential calcing?].

There is the additional fact that it's been traditionally the only thing capable of wiping out the Sarajevo temple complex a city sized underground bunker protected by shielding and heavy futurized protections capable of ignoring artillery and rail-gun bombardment from Mammoth Mk2 Tanks. The Cannon utterly wipes it out down to the foundations with a single hit. (Before the brotherhood rebuilds).
Low single digit or even Double digit Kiloton weapons can not wipe out a city sized, underground, fortified bunker, need I remind you that 13 KT explosions leave wooden houses standing .

Its effect appears to be similar to an ID4 city-killer, except on a smaller scale; IIRC, that weapon was calculated to be of similarly "low" energy.

Invalid here, though the way the calcs were made might be useful. Link for backing it up? (And the ID city killer wiped out a single skyscraper when fired from absolute point blank range, the cannon works when deployed from outer orbit).

It didn't destroy it, it simply split off into smaller elements without damage then began the attack.

My mistake. I haven't played the Scrin campaign yet; I had simply assumed that GDI destroyed it from the original cut-scene.

Concession accepted, and a final note - The Ion cannon's effects would logically be far, far greater when fired from point blank range through space (compared to firing through kilometers of atmosphere), in case we want to calc Scrin ship's durability later on .

That is a Very big If, considering that we've seen that Scrin ships can and do operate within the Troposphere (City blasting cut-scene, they're flying lower than skyscrapers), and if they remain close to the planet's surface (Relatively speaking of course) then the Covies won't be able to rely on their primary guns for fear of hitting the planet.

Keep in mind, a capital ship positioned low over a city wouldn't have to employ its heavier weapons on the "buzzers" and fightercraft observed flying through the city; they could use point-defense pulse lasers, which are significantly less powerful and far more accurate at close range.

The Buzzers are tiny, since when can Covie Capital ships blast targets the size of a dozen swarm of bees with such accuracy. Answer, they can't.

And, IIRC, none of the heavier elements of the Scrin fleet are shown flying low enough to pose a similar problem.

We don't see how low they do fly, again - Game mechanics.

[Ritterin Sophia]

GDI Mission Video 10 Will that do?

[Noble Ire]

Game mechanics, and Spartan's can flip tanks, hence Elites must have the density of a stone

In-game Spartan strength explicitly contradicted by the novels, and thus is pure game mechanics and thus invalid. As far as I know, there is no cut-scene evidence to invalidate the vulnerability of Scrin vessels. However, I will admit that the in-game example is hardly a definite indicator of armor strength (keep in mind, though, GDI and Nod were capable of pushing back the Scrin with their ground weaponry.)

Theoretically is a very unsafe word about the Covenant, especially when they're being very cautious. The risk of the ship being shot down and crashing into an artifact alone will be a bitch.

The Covenant deployed Wraith mortar tanks on both Alpha and Delta Halos, which were entirely Forerunner artifacts; I doubt a Covenant commander is going to worry about a few crashed ships or pulse laser misfires unless they're aiming within meters of one of the Forerunner monuments. The fleet isn't allowed to glass any part of the world, but that doesn't mean its totally ineffectual.

The effects of it in the L-T cut scene seem far, far more impressive than that. [I am currently unable to find the video hosted online, if some member with current access to the game could kindly rip it for potential calcing?].

Why would you cite the Liquid Tiberium cut-scene? Its explicitly stated that the vast majority of the observed blast was due to the inadvertent detonation of the LT deposit below the Nod Temple.

And why do you assume that the Sarajevo Facility has a "city-sized" bunker beneath it? Both the primary structure and its underground network are obviously massive, but I've seen no evidence to indicate that they are either large enough or heavily armored enough to be invulnerable to a ground-penetrating tactical nuke (indeed, C&C3 indicates that the upper temple could have been destroyed by a conventional bombardment; the sub-basement simply would have taken a long time to crack open.

Invalid here, though the way the calcs were made might be useful. Link for backing it up? (And the ID city killer wiped out a single skyscraper when fired from absolute point blank range, the cannon works when deployed from outer orbit).

Upon further thought, I concede the point due to the unusual nature of the ID4 weapon and its dissimilarity from the observed effect of the ion cannon (the GDI weapon is concentrated in a localized area, whereas the "invader" weapon creates some sort of slow-moving explosive wave-front). Nevertheless, I maintain the ion cannon has never exhibited firepower superior to that of a low-yield nuclear device, despite the fact that it has been shown firing numerous times throughout the series.

The Buzzers are tiny, since when can Covie Capital ships blast targets the size of a dozen swarm of bees with such accuracy. Answer, they can't.

Point. Still, the fightercraft, which would be a larger threat to an entrenched force, would be vulnerable to an aerial attack.

We don't see how low they do fly, again - Game mechanics.

They would actually have to fly below the height of skyscrapers to avoid supporting fire from a nearby Covenant assault carrier, something that would likely be infeasible for no other reason than their simple size (that is to say, significantly larger than their fightercraft).

GDI Mission Video 10 Will that do?

As noted above, that clip shows the detonation of the liquid Tiberium pocket, not a normal ion cannon blast.

[Ritterin Sophia]

As noted above, that clip shows the detonation of the liquid Tiberium pocket, not a normal ion cannon blast.

DEATH asked for the clip, I found it for him; I don't remember stating that this was some kind of argument for either side.

[Noble Ire]

As noted above, that clip shows the detonation of the liquid Tiberium pocket, not a normal ion cannon blast.

DEATH asked for the clip, I found it for him; I don't remember stating that this was some kind of argument for either side.

I simply was reiterating my point. I'm apologize if you took it as an attempt to draw you into the debate.

[Noble Ire]

Ghetto Edit: I apologize...

[lazerus]

It may be a moot point, depending on how much of the Scrin's ability to create new units you take as game mechanics, and how much you take as actually representative. Assuming the Scrin actually can summon new buildings and units as the game shows, they could expand at an exponential pace across the planet and quickly overwhelm any defenders with raw weight of numbers.

Of course, the game also shows NOD as having the same ability, and I doubt Kane has taught his soliders how to self-replicate.