Dr. Who; 29/09; "The Family of Blood" (Spoilers)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-03 05:10pm

I'd presume it might be that she's in some technological device, akin to the thing on the SS Madame du Pompadour that lets her look out through 'mirrors' in a given area.

Hitch Hiker · Post by **Hitch Hiker** » 2007-06-03 05:20pm

Well the Doctor has taken another step on the path of becoming The Valeyard. I wounder if thats who Mr Saxton is going to turn out to be? Would be very cool if he was. Anyone else think its possible or likely to happen?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-03 05:50pm

It's not really a 'step'. He's always been like that, he just avoids it when he can. And he'd just been humilitated and responsible for deaths that could have been avoided. Remember, the Doctor has killed copied-over people before (like in Doomsday), so much of the death and destruction in this episode is solely due to his cowardice.

Also, I don't believe many of the punishments ARE eternal. Idiot smoke-boy thought they were, but he's an idiot. However, I don't think the Doctor was just punishing -them-: like I said, he almost totally failed, thus dooming all the people he constantly saves from deadly cleaning robots etc.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-03 06:24pm

It does seem like that was just 'Son Of Mine' being stupid; that seems to be the writer's intent (in the world of DVD commentries, working that out is much easier

) at least. I don't much care about unusual punishments; they're somewhat cool, even, knowing that. If they actually involved eternity as Son of Mine says, they'd be unjust, as it is, I expect the Doctor would get around to killing them after a time not incomparable to our own criminal sentances for serial killers.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2007-06-04 05:29am

What was with the music towards the end? When the Doctor hands out the punishments. It sounded very odd but also familiar.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2007-06-04 04:36pm

Must confess I half expected the physic kid to be the young Saxton given a leg up on his route to world domination by Timelord type knowledge he got from exposure to the watch and turned against the Doctor due to him needlessly getting people killed by hiding from the family when he could easily have taken them.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2007-06-04 08:13pm

Was that the first time since Dalek we've seen the Doctor holding a gun?

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-04 08:29pm

NecronLord wrote: Even The Master, who'd managed to kill off a third of the universe, had not killed an infinite number of people.

But the Master met more or less the same fate as Mother of Mine when he got sucked into the Eye of Harmony anyway and it was perhaps more than he deserved (although he might've died in the Eye instead of being kept in perpetual consciousness while forever imprisoned inside it).

And morally unjustifiable.

The Doctor gave the Family exactly what they wanted but with very thick and very nasty strings attached. Was it wrong on a certain level and over the top punishment? Of course it was, but I didn't feel particularily sorry for the Family and with the possible exception of Mother of Mine, they all had the potential to be released from their imprisonment. I was more upset at the Doctor for the "death" of John Smith when the Doctor fully regained his memories.

And the Doctor has done the eternal containment of evil beings before - the Doctor with the help of Rose sent the Beast spiralling back into that blackhole in "The Satan Pit" (the Beast too was supposed to be chained up forever like Father of Mine) and what about that crystal ball containing those trapped witches from "The Shakespere Code" (that scene was also played for laughs)?

But the Doctor's retribution on the Family did seem oddly personal and excessive; it was as if the Doctor didn't care at that point...

Plekhanov wrote: Must confess I half expected the physic kid to be the young Saxton given a leg up on his route to world domination by Timelord type knowledge he got from exposure to the watch and turned against the Doctor due to him needlessly getting people killed by hiding from the family when he could easily have taken them.

That was a wasted opportunity for tying this two parter into the season final (although it could’ve bogged everything down with a too heavy story arch, like they did with Lost or Prison Break).

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-04 09:36pm

A 'wasted opportunity' when they didn't tie one character into another for no reason other than Orange thought they should? This is that 'my way or it sucks' scale I've heard so much about, clearly.

Yuri2356 · Post by **Yuri2356** » 2007-06-04 09:43pm

Well, the Mother's punishment was only eternal from an outside frame of reference. Her human body would be dead after a few minutes of subjective time, after which she's just a corpse approaching a singularity. And Brother, being "Frozen in Time", probably isn't experiencing his time as a scarecrow. Can't comment on Father or Sister.

On another note, I like that human weapons weren't completely impotent before an Alien threat in this, Especially since the enemies were animated masses of straw. I was quite expecting the bullet-ridden scarecrows to just keep on crawling towards the boys, but instead they fell down and stayed dead. Quite refreshing.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2007-06-05 02:01am

Yuri2356 wrote:Well, the Mother's punishment was only eternal from an outside frame of reference. Her human body would be dead after a few minutes of subjective time, after which she's just a corpse approaching a singularity. And Brother, being "Frozen in Time", probably isn't experiencing his time as a scarecrow. Can't comment on Father or Sister.

Since Brother was the one giving the monologue, I think its clearly meant to imply that hes concious and aware, but his bodys in suspended animation

On another note, I like that human weapons weren't completely impotent before an Alien threat in this, Especially since the enemies were animated masses of straw. I was quite expecting the bullet-ridden scarecrows to just keep on crawling towards the boys, but instead they fell down and stayed dead. Quite refreshing.

Yeah. Until they were told to reanimate, then they got back up. And honestly, being animated piles of straw, I think they should have been able to take a bit more punishment before going down.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-05 02:17am

Manus Celer Dei wrote:Was that the first time since Dalek we've seen the Doctor holding a gun?

Well. That wasn't the Doctor, that was John Smith. I wonder if the Doctor will keep on using the John Smith pseudonym, now.

Big Orange wrote: But the Master met more or less the same fate as Mother of Mine when he got sucked into the Eye of Harmony anyway and it was perhaps more than he deserved (although he might've died in the Eye instead of being kept in perpetual consciousness while forever imprisoned inside it).

If The Gallifrey Chronicles is to be believed, he was still in there a long time after he fell in. Even though his only solace seems to consist of managing to leer and gloat at the Doctor whenever the eye's open. In the surely-apocrythal Scream of the Shalka of course, the 'Richard E Grant Ninth Doctor' has managed to find some way to remove the Master and put him in a robot body.

More importantly, the Eigth Doctor attempted to save the Master from falling in, even though the Master had just killed two people in front of him, and come close to killing him. He didn't stand there and kick him into it.

And the Doctor has done the eternal containment of evil beings before - the Doctor with the help of Rose sent the Beast spiralling back into that blackhole in "The Satan Pit" (the Beast too was supposed to be chained up forever like Father of Mine)

The beast, who, like Sutekh, could not be released or supposedly be killed. Yes, that's a plot-hole you could drive a bowship through.

and what about that crystal ball containing those trapped witches from "The Shakespere Code" (that scene was also played for laughs)?

Yes. He imprisoned them forever (or at least until he finds some way to be rid of them) but again, not really out of spite.

That was a wasted opportunity for tying this two parter into the season final (although it could’ve bogged everything down with a too heavy story arch, like they did with Lost or Prison Break).

If you were going to have a link to Saxon in there, I'd far rather have it mentioned that Saxon put them onto the hunt for the Last Time Lord.

Yuri2356 wrote:Well, the Mother's punishment was only eternal from an outside frame of reference. Her human body would be dead after a few minutes of subjective time, after which she's just a corpse approaching a singularity.

Am I to take it that you've not seen The Three Doctors, with Omega, one of the founders of Time Lord society rotting in a dimension beyond a black hole for ten million years or more? Of course, Omega, as far as we know, has never committed a crime in his life prior to that imprisonment, which was either accidental or contrived by Rassilon. While it seems highly unlikely that the Doctor could manage to build another Sash of Rassilon or suit of armour of Omega (especially as she wasn't wearing any such thing that we could see) just to punt Mother of Mine into a black hole and let her suffer there, it's at least possible to imprison someone inside a black hole forever.

Of course, given the writer's comments, it seems like Brother of Mine was just being pessimistic.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-05 02:34am

Eternity would be an odd concept for a species who live for a few months. I'm curious where they got the ship (not so much the manipulator) and if the rest of their species is just regular chillin' smoke dudes. They must have been pretty enterprising to decide to steal the Time Lord schtick now there's only one left - and they clearly knew of the Doctor's past as a smiter of great deeds etc.

It actually puts their excitement at success and taunting of the Doctor in a new light when you realise that they knew the whole time what he was capable of.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-05 03:08am

Yuri2356 wrote:On another note, I like that human weapons weren't completely impotent before an Alien threat in this, Especially since the enemies were animated masses of straw. I was quite expecting the bullet-ridden scarecrows to just keep on crawling towards the boys, but instead they fell down and stayed dead. Quite refreshing.

Yes. I was surprised. I was expecting them to just overpenetrate and do relatively little damage.

I'll have to get a screenshot of that and caption it with "Stop putting up strawmen, dumbass.
"They're so easy to shoot down."

Hillary · Post by **Hillary** » 2007-06-05 04:57am

Manus Celer Dei wrote:Was that the first time since Dalek we've seen the Doctor holding a gun?

Well he held one in Bad Wolf for a short time when he and Jack stormed the control room (although he made it clear pretty quickly he had no intention of using it).

NecronLord wrote:I wonder if the Doctor will keep on using the John Smith pseudonym, now.

He is on UNIT's database as Dr John Smith, so I expect so.

What a great episode that was. I LOVED the whole scene when the Doctor was given the watch -

"Why does the Doctor need you?"

"Because he's lonely"

"and you want that to happen to me?"

As said earlier in the thread, this Doctor can be a cold, hard bastard. When you consider the severe emotional traumas he's suffered in his long life, it's really not surprising that he's becoming ever darker.

Oh, and a 2-parter where the sonic scrwdriver barely appears and is not used. The writers obviously read the thread on the Lazarus Experiment

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-05 05:02am

Hey, there's a thought. Since Torchwood was annihilated and reduced to small unsupervised teams of incompetent emotional cripples, perhaps UNIT can get a more awesome role now? I've got a huge boner from UNIT.

It's the berets.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2007-06-05 07:26am

I'm more a fan of UNITS 'shoot first, dissect the alien later' method of operation. No time for emotional bollocks and personal drama, just shoot the damn invaders and be done with it!

"Chap with wings there, five rounds rapid!"

I'd love to see a UNIT series, especially since Torchwood ended up being a steaming pile of waste.

Yuri2356 · Post by **Yuri2356** » 2007-06-05 08:02am

Lost Soal wrote:Yeah. Until they were told to reanimate, then they got back up. And honestly, being animated piles of straw, I think they should have been able to take a bit more punishment before going down.

Really? I thought they brought in more from outside.

Am I to take it that you've not seen The Three Doctors, with Omega, one of the founders of Time Lord society rotting in a dimension beyond a black hole for ten million years or more?

I've not, though I've heard that Time Lords have passed through black holes before. But, as you go on to say, there was protective gear involved. Kicking Mother into the hole was more 'cruel and unusual' than anything else.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-06-05 06:00pm

Stark wrote:Hey, there's a thought. Since Torchwood was annihilated and reduced to small unsupervised teams of incompetent emotional cripples, perhaps UNIT can get a more awesome role now? I've got a huge boner from UNIT.

It's the berets.

I believ that, while the BBC can still use the acronym UNIT, the actual UN have told them they can't actually reference any connection to the United Nations. I imagine this could prove tricky for re-introducing UNIT into the series.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-05 06:04pm

andrewgpaul wrote:I believ that, while the BBC can still use the acronym UNIT, the actual UN have told them they can't actually reference any connection to the United Nations. I imagine this could prove tricky for re-introducing UNIT into the series.

They've already had UNIT personell in the show: all they have to do is never explain the acronym (don't even treat it like an acronym) and have the unit guys say 'zomg Torchwood SUCKED'.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-06-05 06:47pm

True, but it does make it a bit trickier to explain who the hell these UNIT folks actually are.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-05 07:04pm

Dudez what kill teh alienzors? Like I said, they've had UNIT in the new series twice, and didn't BOTHER trying to explain. Why does it even matter? Aside from occasional references to 'Geneva' the UN was never a part of it anyway. International alien killers, that's what they are, and a single example of 'UNIT dudes hosing down the aliens with MGs' would establish that. It's actually somewhat cooler without the UN, since nations involved support it directly.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-06-05 07:10pm

I think you'd need some sort of explanation, just to point out that these guys aren't Torchwood. Yes, they've been mentioned twice, but anything more than a line of someone else's dialogue and a walk-on extra part will need something more; Torchwood got quite a bit of explanation in Army of Ghosts, after all.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2007-06-05 07:36pm

Imagine a UNIT series. They could have the Brigadier in it in a non-action role (usually) but as a higher up, giving orders and the like. You'd need that sort of character in there, the no-nonsense, stiff upper lip, very British commander.

A truly professional squad of men locating and mowing down alien threats and menaces, tracking down alien technology and the like. Just like they did in the classic series many times - fighting Yeti in the sewers, launching air strikes against giant plant monsters, combating giant robots, etc.

You could even do a Torchwood crossover wherein the Brigadier tells them to sod off and stop having sex with each other while other people actually do something useful.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-05 08:11pm

andrewgpaul wrote:I think you'd need some sort of explanation, just to point out that these guys aren't Torchwood. Yes, they've been mentioned twice, but anything more than a line of someone else's dialogue and a walk-on extra part will need something more; Torchwood got quite a bit of explanation in Army of Ghosts, after all.

Just to show how evil they were. Major Black Dude didn't need a huge backstory: UNIT openly handles alien stuff. And they have uniforms, and squads of dudes, and actually DO STUFF. And a secret base under the Tower of London, which is pure awesome. If you think it would take more than another uniformed UNIT guy and a single scene to establish UNIT for new viewers, you're on crack. Assuming it has to be done all at once - we do know how Big Orange struggles with ideas like 'subtle foreshadowing' so maybe we WOULD need a big neon sign.

It'd be awesome for UNIT guys to talk about all their experience with Cybercombat and how Torchwood always wanked their 'zomg alien tech' and it did them no good at all. The show makes me wonder how much oversight the Torchwood branches ever had, whereas UNIT is an international, relatively public, organised military force for rapid reaction.

And they didn't just call in Tornadoes on the Krynoid: they dragged out a fucking giant LASER GUN first. That's hardcore.

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Dr. Who; 29/09; "The Family of Blood" (Spoilers)

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