[40k] Daemon Princes

[Spartan]

So, I been reading a lot of 40K since being turned onto it in this forum. I've read basically all the omnibus, and a fistful of single novels besides. My question though is how powerful are the Daemon Princes? Are they more powerful than say a Greater Daemon? And what about Avtar's such as the Heart of Blood from the Ultramarines Omnibus. I understand that the Fallen Primachs all control single planets in the Eye of Terror; but in Let the Galaxy burn some sorcer controlled five planets.

[Imperial Overlord]

Daemon Princes vary in power. In general they are weaker than Greater Daemons who are essentially (especially in the case of the Great Unclean Ones) aspects of their parent gods. The primarchs that have become Daemon Princes are probably more powerful than most Greater Daemons, simply because they were already extremely powerful. Daemon Princes tend to be more individualistic and diverse in terms of personality than Greater Daemons.

[Ford Prefect]

I do recall a passage from an Index Malleus article describing the most powerful Daemon Princes as being essentially above Greater Daemons (changing reality at a glance was a power given). However, as IO says, in general Greater Daemons are nastier, and the most powerful Daemon Princes tend to be fallen Primarchs. After all, Angron rocked around with a dozen Bloodthirsters as his retinue.

[Spartan]

I suppose that should have occurred to me. If I recall correctly Sanguinius broke a bloodthirster over his knee, afterall. Although I wonder about that now. The Heresy books seem to be showing us that not all that we thought about the primachs, is true. Mangus not being a cyclops, Sanguinius having black hair, etc. Still a good read though.

Say, just how powerful are the primachs anyway. The Space wolf Omnibus stated that the Emperor and all the primachs could navigate the warp on their own, before the was the astrocom thingy. So I assume the must have all been pyskers. The Emperor is beyond Alpha level, but what could a primach do? I know Mangus was up their is psy-power at least.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Primarchs seem to be the product of high technology and the Emperor's warp craft. Their exact powers and abilities very with some possessing powers and abilities that the others did not possess. Magnus is the only one that I know of that possessed traditional psychich abilities but the others were imbued with enough warp power to do things like survive being bitch-slapped by the Emperor's power glove, having fortress walls dropped on them, or break a Bloodthirster over their knee.

As a comparison the Bloodthirster is chalk full of warp power but doesn't possess any psychic or magical skills, just an enormous amount of raw power and ferocity.

[Kuja]

Lorgar had visions of the future and IIRC, Sanguinius and Angron were implied to be speaking telepathically at one point during the battle of Terra.

[Falkenhayn]

So, I been reading a lot of 40K since being turned onto it in this forum. I've read basically all the omnibus, and a fistful of single novels besides. My question though is how powerful are the Daemon Princes? Are they more powerful than say a Greater Daemon? And what about Avtar's such as the Heart of Blood from the Ultramarines Omnibus. I understand that the Fallen Primachs all control single planets in the Eye of Terror; but in Let the Galaxy burn some sorcer controlled five planets.

Well, the uppermost Outlier of DP power falls somewhere around Gharagatuloth of Nurgle. He was a sentient, sapient planet, with armies of Plaugebearers dancing around on his surface.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, the uppermost Outlier of DP power falls somewhere around Gharagatuloth of Nurgle. He was a sentient, sapient planet, with armies of Plaugebearers dancing around on his surface.

Didn't he manifest in reality as being considerably smaller than that? Still horrifically massive, but not the size of a planet? I do know there's a planet sized Daemon Prince (its described as being the place where dreamers who do nothing but dream go), but I didn't think it was Ghargy.

[white_rabbit]

So, I been reading a lot of 40K since being turned onto it in this forum. I've read basically all the omnibus, and a fistful of single novels besides. My question though is how powerful are the Daemon Princes? Are they more powerful than say a Greater Daemon? And what about Avtar's such as the Heart of Blood from the Ultramarines Omnibus. I understand that the Fallen Primachs all control single planets in the Eye of Terror; but in Let the Galaxy burn some sorcer controlled five planets.

Well, the uppermost Outlier of DP power falls somewhere around Gharagatuloth of Nurgle. He was a sentient, sapient planet, with armies of Plaugebearers dancing around on his surface.

Ghargy is actually Tzeentch that I recall, he basically manifested as a kilometers high column of warping daemonic flesh before he was banished.

At some point Greater Daemon and Daemon Prince are interchangable, GD's have been seen to have DP minions, and DP's have been seen to have Greater Daemons in their retinues.

High end examples of Daemonic beasties manifesting in the Real world include the Engineer of Time/al his other names ripping the top six decks off a Spacehulk in the Souldrinkers books, Ghargys light year range mindfucking in Grey Knights, as well as his ability to summon vast swarms of daemons and a praetorian guard of Greater daemons/Daemon Princes.

Ka Bhanda, the Bloodthirster made famous by kicking the Blood Angel's arse and killing 500 space marines in a few seconds is pretty nasty, although he gets his arse kicked in the rematch.

Theres a fat bastard of a Unclean one in the Space Wolves books who apparently spoke with the Emperor, and while trapped inside an Eldar warp prison managed to do the now patented Nurgle trick, killing a planetary population with a plague and raising them as the undead.

Teturact from Soul Drinkers probably qualifies as a Daemon Prince yet to become a pure warp entity, while still a physical being he could fly unprotected in space, between planets, and using ritualistic magic raise plagues in planets lightyears distant.

He also fucked up orbital defences by making the crews die of disease before his ship moved into range.

the Titan comics also had a gigantic Daemonic beasty which manifested in an explosion mistaken for the detonation of a hivebusting nuke. Its damage threshold was higher than the combined firepower and all the ammunition of a dozen warlord titans. (but not their sanctified hulls walking into it)

Its not clear whether or not its technological, "magical" or a mixture of the two, but in Dark Adeptus an entire planet is Warp jumped under the aegis of an entity capable of psychic feats.

[Falkenhayn]

So, I been reading a lot of 40K since being turned onto it in this forum. I've read basically all the omnibus, and a fistful of single novels besides. My question though is how powerful are the Daemon Princes? Are they more powerful than say a Greater Daemon? And what about Avtar's such as the Heart of Blood from the Ultramarines Omnibus. I understand that the Fallen Primachs all control single planets in the Eye of Terror; but in Let the Galaxy burn some sorcer controlled five planets.

Well, the uppermost Outlier of DP power falls somewhere around Gharagatuloth of Nurgle. He was a sentient, sapient planet, with armies of Plaugebearers dancing around on his surface.

Ghargy is actually Tzeentch that I recall, he basically manifested as a kilometers high column of warping daemonic flesh before he was banished.

At some point Greater Daemon and Daemon Prince are interchangable, GD's have been seen to have DP minions, and DP's have been seen to have Greater Daemons in their retinues.

High end examples of Daemonic beasties manifesting in the Real world include the Engineer of Time/al his other names ripping the top six decks off a Spacehulk in the Souldrinkers books, Ghargys light year range mindfucking in Grey Knights, as well as his ability to summon vast swarms of daemons and a praetorian guard of Greater daemons/Daemon Princes.

Ka Bhanda, the Bloodthirster made famous by kicking the Blood Angel's arse and killing 500 space marines in a few seconds is pretty nasty, although he gets his arse kicked in the rematch.

Theres a fat bastard of a Unclean one in the Space Wolves books who apparently spoke with the Emperor, and while trapped inside an Eldar warp prison managed to do the now patented Nurgle trick, killing a planetary population with a plague and raising them as the undead.

Teturact from Soul Drinkers probably qualifies as a Daemon Prince yet to become a pure warp entity, while still a physical being he could fly unprotected in space, between planets, and using ritualistic magic raise plagues in planets lightyears distant.

He also fucked up orbital defences by making the crews die of disease before his ship moved into range.

the Titan comics also had a gigantic Daemonic beasty which manifested in an explosion mistaken for the detonation of a hivebusting nuke. Its damage threshold was higher than the combined firepower and all the ammunition of a dozen warlord titans. (but not their sanctified hulls walking into it)

Its not clear whether or not its technological, "magical" or a mixture of the two, but in Dark Adeptus an entire planet is Warp jumped under the aegis of an entity capable of psychic feats.

Dead Sky, Black Sun: Who was the Demon Prince that drove the warp-Locomotive through time and space?

And who was that Demon Prince/GD locked in the Heart of Darkness that wasted some thousands of Iron Warriors and their thralls?

[White Haven]

Gharagatuloth is an interesting case, in that he had frightening levels of mindfuckery powers, and was the very poster-boy image of Tzeentch in his ability to plan millenia in advance and manipulate even forces he couldn't directly influence, but the only manifestations he's ever seen in is a pillar. with some tentacles. This doesn't strike me as that terribly powerful a form, except as provided by sheer scale.

[Kuja]

Dead Sky, Black Sun: Who was the Demon Prince that drove the warp-Locomotive through time and space?

The Omphalios Demonium, engineer and train were one and the same being.

And who was that Demon Prince/GD locked in the Heart of Darkness that wasted some thousands of Iron Warriors and their thralls?

The Heart of Darkness was the greater daemon.

[Spartan]

Just a thought I had that's not really worth a seperate thread. Why the hell does the Imperium still used the title of Warmaster? Sure the Emperor came up with the title, but look how that turned out.

[Imperial Overlord]

Just a thought I had that's not really worth a seperate thread. Why the hell does the Imperium still used the title of Warmaster? Sure the Emperor came up with the title, but look how that turned out.

It's an Imperial Rank, although one that is thought ill omened by many for obvious reasons. The similar or possibly equivalent rank of "Lord Solar" is more popular. There was a thread about that recently.

[andrewgpaul]

Mind you, Horus was the last Space Marine commander to hold the rank, IIRC. Since then, it appears even Warmasters can't command the Marines; they have to ask nicely like everyone else.