Fallout 3 trailer: June 5. Page updated with AWESOME.

[Cao Cao]

Nothing to do with the suit's condition. Who says the BoS on the East Coast is anything resembling that as originally conceived in Fallout?

Logically, there is no BoS on the East Coast.
Any Paladin there would be from the Lost Hills bunker just as much as a Paladin in California would.
That is unless Bethesda have seen fit to anally rape canon.

Then you're simply a bloody idiot, plain and simple. Anyone can compare Morrowind to the Van Buren screenshot earlier in the thread and say in two seconds flat which is the superior, and it ain't fucking Van Buren.

I'm saying that the specific armour and character models are superior. Nothing more.

Compared to Van Buren, you fanatic, it's a bloody masterpiece. Considering it's two years older than the Van Buren build, it's an even sillier result. Low-resolution textures? Have you looked at your screenshots?

Have you even bothered to look at other screenshots?

Yeah, right. By all means, present your evidence that THE GAME was 95% complete miraculously somehow didn't include the engine, which for some reason you expect people to believe was barely complete and would somehow blow Morrowind out of the water.

When did I ever say that? I said that the armour model in question was superior to armour from Morrowind. How does this translate to the game's overall graphics beating Morrowinds? Which is in fact something we'll never know since like it or not, the engine was vastly incomplete. It's a tech demo for crying out loud. It's something the public was never intended to see!

Oh really? Then do show me where. You're not the only Fallout fanboy here, the only difference is the rest of us are rational.

To call a miniscule sprite a "design" is a joke.

What you consider to be a sprite is irrelevant.

You're full of shit. Everything he said is entirely accurate. Morrowind did have a scaling system, any idiot can see that when the Dremora and Golden Saints etc went from Dwemer to Glass to Ebony to Daedric as the game progressed. It just didn't scale armor.

It did have a scaling system. It didn't have Oblivion's. Which is what Todd claims. Oblivion's scaling affected all monsters, all npcs, all loot, all bosses. Everything. No other TES has done that.
Or do you think it's logical that Mannimarco, immortal necromancer and King of Worms, a god amongst mortals, can be killed by a level 1 character with a rusty iron sword?

Or are you saying that the rats do scale to a Level 30 player character

That is the most extreme example, but they do in fact scale.

Depends on what you mean by "unaffected". The level of player choice in Morrowind was entirely the same as that in Oblivion. The interface is another issue, and has nothing to do with "dumbing down", since the gripe involved the huge text-size more than anything else.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit! The interface was terrible overall. Stats and skills were rendered useless (e.g. Persuasion and Security), dialogue was reduced to nothing, you couldn't delete spells.
Everything was molded into being the perfect Xbox game. Simplified controls, twitch-gaming, no consequence for actions, etc. etc.

Oh yes, because Oblivion was such a terrible disaster, how could we let them get away with that abomination ...

When a game is only playable after 100+ user mods are added. When a game thinks that axes are somehow blunt. When a game has quests that tell you exactly where everything is with a bloody compass pointer. When a game sacrifices all of it's depth for an Xbox owner's ease of use then yes, it is a disaster.

Their past repeated actions of buying a franchise and then turning it into a carbon copy of their own games, with guns?

Stop being a fucking moron.

Bethesda have only ever developed one series in house.
TES.
They turned TES from a deep, varied RPG to a consolised hybrid mess.
Explain why I should think they won't do the same for Fallout?

[Cao Cao]

Listen bitch, I'm not going to say it again, I'm railing on the original Fallout's graphics. That you keep strawmanning it doesn't fucking help your position. Get it?

I know what you're railing on. And I'm pointing out that you're full of shit.

Sprites ARE primitive, and the only place they have in a modern game is when you need a LOT of something.

Get a fucking clue before yapping again. Sprites are in no way primitive. They are simply harder to do than 3D models, if you want them to look right.
Harder does not equal primitive, and if you think it does well.. there's no hope for you.

Isometric, stationary views like the first two games are a LIMITATION of the sprite-based engine, and any game with 3D these days gives you some control over the camera, even NWN1, which never let you look above the horizon.

And who's arguing against that? That's right, nobody. I'm not arguing against 3D Fallout, or for stationary view Fallout. What I am saying is that done right, a sprite based, isometric Fallout would not automatically be primitive.
Nor would an isometric, 3D Fallout. Sure, give it a variable camera and 3D effects or whatever. But making the game viewable from an isometric view is not primitive and not a limitation.

By the way, TES: Arena and Daggerfall were first person and used sprites. Limitation my ass. So again, get a goddamn clue.

And yes, let's remember, sprites and all that come with them are ESSENTIAL to the Fallout experience folks! It's okay! They're WHAT THE SERIES IS ABOUT!

You don't have a clue what the series is about anyway, so why comment on it?

In this thread alone, at least 2 justifications have been mentioned:
1. Clipping issues
2. Updating the look so that it doesn't look like ass when viewed in HD cinematics and gameplay compared to an sprite at 640*480

1. is a justification used by Black Isle for Van Buren, not Bethesda.
2. is an apologist assumption.

[Hotfoot]

Whoa, so it's not primitive, it's just harder to do something with it. Hmm, you know, I can make a gun in a blacksmith's shop, but that's not a more primitive way of doing it compared to an automated factory, it's just harder, right?

I mean, I can use simpler methods and exponentially harder work to achieve the same results, that doesn't make it primitive at all, does it?

Jesus, where do you get off? Moreover, you seem to be of the delusion that if any game series used sprites in the past that it's dead to me, never mind that EVERY FUCKING GAME COMPANY IN THE WORLD HAS MOVED TO 3D! Jesus, even Starcraft 2 is going to be 3D and it doesn't even need it.

Sprite games are for extremely low end systems or for games with so much shit on screen it's easier to model a point than a full 3D object so the game doesn't chug. Sometimes someone might use them to make a stylistic point, but other than that, it's not really worth it to make a sprite game given modern computers and design houses.

But hey, I don't know anything about the series, you do. In fact, you're the ONLY PERSON HERE who has ANY idea what the series is about. Talk about arrogance. Que Que, did you design the previous two Fallout games? Were you on the design team of Van Buren? Do you have any justification for saying you know best what makes a Fallout game over anyone else here? If not, I suggest you shut the fuck up and go QQ more, Que Que.

You know, let's go through some of Que Que's greatest hits on this thread. The new armor looks like Darth Vader's armor, Darth Vader's armor is boxy, Van Buren made no major changes to the armor's design, but Bethesda did, only Black Isle has the right to change anything, and god damn it Bethesda better recognize that, a quote from a developer of the Bethesda version of Fallout 3 suddenly becomes used to justify the changes in Van Buren, NOT Bethesda's Fallout 3, sprites aren't primitive, they're just harder to use for more complex things, and nobody here knows what makes a good Fallout game.

Oh yes, and Fallout 3 will be Oblivion with guns. Absolutely. No question.

Anyone else want to contribute? This will make a great gift for his next birthday, graduation, marriage, or funeral.

[Cao Cao]

Whoa, so it's not primitive, it's just harder to do something with it. Hmm, you know, I can make a gun in a blacksmith's shop, but that's not a more primitive way of doing it compared to an automated factory, it's just harder, right?

I'm talking about different styles, jackass.
Though it's interesting to note that you make a comparison between something hand-crafted with care and something mass-produced.

I mean, I can use simpler methods and exponentially harder work to achieve the same results, that doesn't make it primitive at all, does it?

Irrelevant, since sprites and 3D are used to achieve different results today.

Jesus, where do you get off? Moreover, you seem to be of the delusion that if any game series used sprites in the past that it's dead to me, never mind that EVERY FUCKING GAME COMPANY IN THE WORLD HAS MOVED TO 3D! Jesus, even Starcraft 2 is going to be 3D and it doesn't even need it.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Capcom and Konami disagree with you.

Sprite games are for extremely low end systems or for games with so much shit on screen it's easier to model a point than a full 3D object so the game doesn't chug. Sometimes someone might use them to make a stylistic point, but other than that, it's not really worth it to make a sprite game given modern computers and design houses.

Bullshit. It's as worth it as it is to make 3D models. It depends on the design goals.

But hey, I don't know anything about the series, you do. In fact, you're the ONLY PERSON HERE who has ANY idea what the series is about. Talk about arrogance. Que Que, did you design the previous two Fallout games? Were you on the design team of Van Buren? Do you have any justification for saying you know best what makes a Fallout game over anyone else here? If not, I suggest you shut the fuck up and go QQ more, Que Que.

No, I'm not the only one. But YOU sure as hell don't.

You know, let's go through some of Que Que's greatest hits on this thread. The new armor looks like Darth Vader's armor, Darth Vader's armor is boxy,

Show your maturity by attacking a personal aesthetic view today! Win fabulous prizes!

Van Buren made no major changes to the armor's design, but Bethesda did, only Black Isle has the right to change anything, and god damn it Bethesda better recognize that,

a) Black Isle has rights that it earned
b) Black Isle changed things while staying true to original designs

a quote from a developer of the Bethesda version of Fallout 3 suddenly becomes used to justify the changes in Van Buren, NOT Bethesda's Fallout 3,

Other way 'round, sparky.

sprites aren't primitive, they're just harder to use for more complex things,

They are harder to to make, relatively speaking.
Once the resources are made, they are in fact easier to use.

and Hotfoot doesn't know jack about what makes a good Fallout game.

Fixed it for you.

Oh yes, and Fallout 3 will be Oblivion with guns. Absolutely. No question.

Best assumption until evidence for or against is presented.

[Vympel]

Logically, there is no BoS on the East Coast.

Yes, there is. I'm looking at him.

Any Paladin there would be from the Lost Hills bunker just as much as a Paladin in California would.
That is unless Bethesda have seen fit to anally rape canon.

I'm sorry, canon says "in the entire history of the Brotherhood of Steel every Paladin came from the Lost Hills bunker"?

Who are you to dictate canon?

I'm saying that the specific armour and character models are superior. Nothing more.

The Van Buren armor and character models? Say what?

Have you even bothered to look at other screenshots?

Yes.

When did I ever say that?I said that the armour model in question was superior to armour from Morrowind.

Which is laughable.

How does this translate to the game's overall graphics beating Morrowinds? Which is in fact something we'll never know since like it or not, the engine was vastly incomplete. It's a tech demo for crying out loud. It's something the public was never intended to see!

Right, so it was a technology demonstrator whoose technology is totally unrepresentative of what the final game would look like. That makes sense.

I already mentioned that. Do you even bother reading other people's posts?

What you consider to be a sprite is irrelevant.

So you deny Fallout was using sprites?

It did have a scaling system. It didn't have Oblivion's. Which is what Todd claims.

You just can't read, can you?

It’s very similar to what we did in Arena and Daggerfall, and to a lesser extent in Morrowind.

Where do you get "Morrowind had Oblivion's scaling system" from such a comment?

Oblivion's scaling affected all monsters, all npcs, all loot, all bosses. Everything. No other TES has done that.
Or do you think it's logical that Mannimarco, immortal necromancer and King of Worms, a god amongst mortals, can be killed by a level 1 character with a rusty iron sword?

Which is not what Howard is talking about in terms of Morrowind, as I've just pointed out.

That is the most extreme example, but they do in fact scale.

They don't scale anywhere approaching even a mid-level character.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit! The interface was terrible overall.

Nothing to do with "dumbing down". And, once the text was fixed by the BTMod, there was little wrong with the interface.

Stats and skills were rendered useless (e.g. Persuasion and Security)

Buh? Without a high security skill, the security mini-game was an exercise in frustration and lock picks breaking with absurd frequency. And I love it how you take two skills and then blow that out into "stats and skills were rendered useless".

And if you don't like the lockpick minigame, you don't have to play it- you can push the automatic button. What's the issue?

As for Persuasion- you know what's much more fun than that? Morrowind's approach of pushing "Persuade" a bajillion times until you got a 10-point increase.

That's not dumbing down, that's eliminating tedium.

dialogue was reduced to nothing,

Compared to what?

you couldn't delete spells.

So what? This is your big evidence for massive dumbing down?

Everything was molded into being the perfect Xbox game. Simplified controls

Compared to what?! Oh, shock horror, they made it so you could fire off spells while having a sword and shield out, how dare they make using spells less tedious!

twitch-gaming

Because, you know, just running up to a bad guy and clicking furiously the same button is so much better than actually being involved in the fight by having to move and maybe raise your shield.

no consequence for actions, etc. etc.

Again, compared to what? What consequences did actions have in Morrowind, exactly? You were on a set path, period.

When a game is only playable after 100+ user mods are added. When a game thinks that axes are somehow blunt. When a game has quests that tell you exactly where everything is with a bloody compass pointer. When a game sacrifices all of it's depth for an Xbox owner's ease of use then yes, it is a disaster.

You have an absurdly rose-coloured glasses view of the games that came before Oblivion. I've played bloody Morrowind through recently, and if you think toiling around the wilderness like an idiot following obtuse directions that you'd be lucky to have noted in your diary is "depth", you're insane. Oblivion's side quests, the lot of them, were all far superior in every way to anything that had been put in Morrowind, which were largely and without fail a set of boring kill this/ fetch this quests.

Bethesda have only ever developed one series in house.
TES.
They turned TES from a deep, varied RPG to a consolised hybrid mess.
Explain why I should think they won't do the same for Fallout?

Because your narrative about TES is complete bullshit. Annoying minor compromises were made for consoles, yes. The lame, elitist "der it was dumbed down because teH axezs are blunt, ZOMG!" shite isn't anymore true because of it.

[Hotfoot]

Hey dumbass? I can show you that Darth Vader's armor is not "boxy" (in fact, I have). That's not something you can decide for yourself as an opinion, dig? Good god, if you ran the world, fingerprints couldn't be used as evidence because you'd call a loop a swirl. Aesthetics are about what you find APPEALING, not objective comments regarding the shape of something. If you said "Gosh, I don't like Darth Vader's armor or the new Fallout armor", that's an aesthetic view. When you say, "ZOMG! THE NEW FALLOUT ARMOR LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE OLD FALLOUT ARMOR AND IT LOOKS LIKE DARTH VADER'S ARMOR BECAUSE DARTH VADER'S ARMOR IS BOXY TOO!" then those are objective comparisons, not aesthetic views, and yes, I CAN attack them, you stupid little shit.

Let's talk a moment more about the meanings of words, since you seem not to understand the ones you're spouting. I said sprites are primitive, which means they are crude and simple, and they are. They are very simple, which is why they are used whenever large numbers have to be shown on screen. Know why the first Total War games were with sprites? I bet you don't, but that's okay. And hey, as computational power increased, what did they move to? That's right, 3D models.

Funny how you see "slapped together in a blacksmith's shop with barely the appropriate tools" as "hand-crafted", as though it were something to aspire to. Yes, because I want all of my shit to look like some slob barely knew how to make the parts. Fuck, how warped is your reality that you think that advanced tools are a BAD thing?

Oh no, some fighting games are still 2D, my point is ruined. Oh wait, it's not. Those are niche games going for a stylized look, and even most of those are moving to 3D eventually anyway. Sprite games for handhelds like the GBA, DS, or PSP don't really prove the point either, since those are all low-powered systems, so suck it.

Now, on to "rights". Listen shithead, they make the games, you play them. They don't have to earn "rights" beyond the money they plopped down to get the creative rights to the game. They don't owe you shit, and you don't get to decide if they have the right to do anything. Now, yes, they will want to make the game fun for old Fallout fans AND new players, but you don't magically get to decide what they can and cannot do, you arrogant little shit. Moreover, since they've made MOST of the Fallout fans here happy, I can only assume that Bethesda passed the first test. You, however, are a vitriolic piece of shit who's not happy unless you get every little fucking thing you want and by god if you don't get your way you will pitch such a fit! If you were my kid, your ass would be so red by the time you got to college that the first girl you got drunk enough to fuck you would think she wandered into the god damned zoo.

Step away from the computer and buy a dictionary. Maybe while you're at the bookstore you'll find someone who will agree with you, though that will likely not find you a suitable mate.

[Cao Cao]

Yes, there is. I'm looking at him.

Hence the word logically.

I'm sorry, canon says "in the entire history of the Brotherhood of Steel every Paladin came from the Lost Hills bunker"?

Who are you to dictate canon?

Are you kidding me? Every single-fucking-member of the Brotherhood of Steel comes from the Mariposa Military Base, and then migrated to Lost Hills where the BoS was formed!
That's straight from Fallout 1 you moron, I have nothing to do with it.

The Van Buren armor and character models? Say what?

The character models in Van Buren vs. the character models in Morrowind.

Which is laughable.

According to you.

Right, so it was a technology demonstrator whoose technology is totally unrepresentative of what the final game would look like. That makes sense.

Seeing as it was a tech demo meant to show basic engine functionality and gameplay and not pretty pretty graphics..

I already mentioned that. Do you even bother reading other people's posts?

Then why did you say that you hadn't seen one instance of the full armour?

So you deny Fallout was using sprites?

No, I deny your idiotic assertion that Fallout's sprites don't count as proper designs.

You just can't read, can you?

It’s very similar to what we did in Arena and Daggerfall, and to a lesser extent in Morrowind.

Where do you get "Morrowind had Oblivion's scaling system" from such a comment?

It's not fucking similar at all. That's the problem.

Which is not what Howard is talking about in terms of Morrowind, as I've just pointed out.

Bullshit. His meaning is clear. Justifying Oblivion's scaling by saying other RPGs have some manner of scaling is a red herring anyway.

They don't scale anywhere approaching even a mid-level character.

As I said, most extreme example.

Nothing to do with "dumbing down".

How is not being able to delete spells just in case some asshole deletes a quest-crucial spell not dumbing down?

And, once the text was fixed by the BTMod, there was little wrong with the interface.

Except, you know, the aformentioned spell-delete, the awkward order of items, non-sensical spell-book and inability to drop quest related keys and items.

Buh? Without a high security skill, the security mini-game was an exercise in frustration and lock picks breaking with absurd frequency. And I love it how you take two skills and then blow that out into "stats and skills were rendered useless".

Are you kidding? The lockpick game is incredibly easy once you know how it works. And I gave those two as the most extreme examples. Maybe I should also list how weapon skills no longer affect to hit %.. well.. because there is no to hit %.. Dexterity is trivial at best, Mysticism has been crippled, Block only adds various gimmick effects, etc. etc.
Class builds are also trivial given that in Oblivion it's incredibly easy to make a plate wearing sword wielding mage who is a master of stealth and fires bows like a pro. And is master of all guilds.

And if you don't like the lockpick minigame, you don't have to play it- you can push the automatic button. What's the issue?

This is among the stupidest things I've ever heard. Why purposefully cripple yourself if you don't have to?

As for Persuasion- you know what's much more fun than that? Morrowind's approach of pushing "Persuade" a bajillion times until you got a 10-point increase.

That's not dumbing down, that's eliminating tedium.

What a load of crap! How the fuck is threatening, admiring, boasting to and joking with the same person all at the same time either logical or fun?

Compared to what?

Even Morrowind had better dialogue than Oblivion. Regardless that the whole TES series hasn't had much in the way of dialogue.

So what? This is your big evidence for massive dumbing down?

It is but one example.

Compared to what?! Oh, shock horror, they made it so you could fire off spells while having a sword and shield out, how dare they make using spells less tedious!

Because, of course, a front line warrior needs access to those spells right away!

Because, you know, just running up to a bad guy and clicking furiously the same button is so much better than actually being involved in the fight by having to move and maybe raise your shield.

Hey, if you don't like stat-based gaming, go play Halo.

Again, compared to what? What consequences did actions have in Morrowind, exactly? You were on a set path, period.

Bullshit. Morrowind at least have two ways to complete the quest, 3 Houses of which only one was joinable and guild quests that conflicted with each other. Oblivion had none of that, leading to the head Assassin of the Dark Brotherhood also being the Champion, head of the Mages' Guild, head of the Fighter's Guild, head of the Thieves Guild (which hate the Dark Brotherhood!) and a holy Paladin!

You have an absurdly rose-coloured glasses view of the games that came before Oblivion. I've played bloody Morrowind through recently, and if you think toiling around the wilderness like an idiot following obtuse directions that you'd be lucky to have noted in your diary is "depth", you're insane. Oblivion's side quests, the lot of them, were all far superior in every way to anything that had been put in Morrowind, which were largely and without fail a set of boring kill this/ fetch this quests.

You're full of shit. How the fuck were Oblivion's side quests so much better than Morrowind's? They're basically the same, you twat. Aside from a couple of DB ones which are largely gimmicks.
And if you need a fucking compass to tell you where to go then why the hell are you playing RPGs?

Because your narrative about TES is complete bullshit. Annoying minor compromises were made for consoles, yes. The lame, elitist "der it was dumbed down because teH axezs are blunt, ZOMG!" shite isn't anymore true because of it.

So, you like blunt axes do you?
From your tone, you obviously dislike RPGs. Which is unfortunate, because Bethesda make RPGs for people like you.. who dislike RPGs.
Horrible paradox, that. Do you see me pissing all over the FPS or RTS genre wanting them to be more like something else? No! So why do it to RPGs?

[brianeyci]

Cao Cao you should just shut up before you dig a deeper hole.

I was willing to entertain the idea of Vader's armor being boxy, as were other people. Just that nobody got why you gave a damn. I was even willing to entertain the idea that Space Age armor is different than gritty post-apocalyptic armor.

But when you mentioned rights, you killed all your credibility. You're starting to sound like the guy I was laughing at back around page two, who said it was a moral outrage that they would change Fallout. Moral outrage is what I think about when someone mentions a rights violation. Once they paid for the Fallout franchise, they have the right to make it whatever the fuck they want. You don't like it you don't have to play it. You should just bow out before more people dogpile.

[Cao Cao]

Hey dumbass? I can show you that Darth Vader's armor is not "boxy" (in fact, I have). That's not something you can decide for yourself as an opinion, dig? Good god, if you ran the world, fingerprints couldn't be used as evidence because you'd call a loop a swirl. Aesthetics are about what you find APPEALING, not objective comments regarding the shape of something. If you said "Gosh, I don't like Darth Vader's armor or the new Fallout armor", that's an aesthetic view. When you say, "ZOMG! THE NEW FALLOUT ARMOR LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE OLD FALLOUT ARMOR AND IT LOOKS LIKE DARTH VADER'S ARMOR BECAUSE DARTH VADER'S ARMOR IS BOXY TOO!" then those are objective comparisons, not aesthetic views, and yes, I CAN attack them, you stupid little shit.

It was a throwaway comparison I didn't bring up again until you decided to take massive issue with it.

Let's talk a moment more about the meanings of words, since you seem not to understand the ones you're spouting. I said sprites are primitive, which means they are crude and simple, and they are. They are very simple, which is why they are used whenever large numbers have to be shown on screen. Know why the first Total War games were with sprites? I bet you don't, but that's okay. And hey, as computational power increased, what did they move to? That's right, 3D models.

And I care... why? Elite was 3D. So were it's sequels Frontier and First Encounters. Then Privateer was sprite based. Then Freespace and Freelancer were 3D. Then Space Rangers was sprite based and entirely 2D. Space Rangers is the most recent of that list, and it uses sprites. Despite the full technological abilities to make it 3D (in fact, Space Rangers 2 has a 3D RTS mode). So your argument holds no water.

Funny how you see "slapped together in a blacksmith's shop with barely the appropriate tools" as "hand-crafted", as though it were something to aspire to. Yes, because I want all of my shit to look like some slob barely knew how to make the parts. Fuck, how warped is your reality that you think that advanced tools are a BAD thing?

How warped is YOUR thinking to automatically assume the worst case scenario in my analogy?
But here's a better example: A freshly cooked meal is harder to make than a TV dinner. Which one tastes better if done well?
Don't think too hard about it, now.

Oh no, some fighting games are still 2D, my point is ruined. Oh wait, it's not. Those are niche games going for a stylized look, and even most of those are moving to 3D eventually anyway. Sprite games for handhelds like the GBA, DS, or PSP don't really prove the point either, since those are all low-powered systems, so suck it.

You're a complete idiot aren't you? Both the PSP and DS can handle 3D graphics on a level that almost matches the PS2. Seen Super Mario DS, Starfox Command, MGS: Portable Ops and Valhalla Knights?

Now, on to "rights". Listen shithead, they make the games, you play them. They don't have to earn "rights" beyond the money they plopped down to get the creative rights to the game. They don't owe you shit, and you don't get to decide if they have the right to do anything. Now, yes, they will want to make the game fun for old Fallout fans AND new players, but you don't magically get to decide what they can and cannot do, you arrogant little shit.

They may have the legal rights. They don't have the moral rights. Whether you care about that or not is not my concern.

Moreover, since they've made MOST of the Fallout fans here happy, I can only assume that Bethesda passed the first test. You, however, are a vitriolic piece of shit who's not happy unless you get every little fucking thing you want and by god if you don't get your way you will pitch such a fit! If you were my kid, your ass would be so red by the time you got to college that the first girl you got drunk enough to fuck you would think she wandered into the god damned zoo.

Step away from the computer and buy a dictionary. Maybe while you're at the bookstore you'll find someone who will agree with you, though that will likely not find you a suitable mate.

Your degeneration into long, drawn out insults says more about your fanboyishness than anything I could say.
Flaming for opinion is one thing, rabid ad hominem rants are quite another.

Cao Cao you should just shut up before you dig a deeper hole.

I was willing to entertain the idea of Vader's armor being boxy, as were other people. Just that nobody got why you gave a damn. I was even willing to entertain the idea that Space Age armor is different than gritty post-apocalyptic armor.

I don't give a shit about Vader's armour or whether the new armour looks like it or not. Again, it was a throaway comment which Hotfoot had to make a big issue about.

But when you mentioned rights, you killed all your credibility. You're starting to sound like the guy I was laughing at back around page two, who said it was a moral outrage that they would change Fallout. Moral outrage is what I think about when someone mentions a rights violation. Once they paid for the Fallout franchise, they have the right to make it whatever the fuck they want. You don't like it you don't have to play it. You should just bow out before more people dogpile.

It's moral only in the sense of design credibility. Why buy the rights to something then drastically alter it? If you wanted something that different, why not make your own suit of power armor?

[Ace Pace]

Fuck this.

HEY DIPSHIT, GET A DICTIONARY.

From your tone, you obviously dislike RPGs. Which is unfortunate, because Bethesda make RPGs for people like you.. who dislike RPGs.

Do you know what an RPG is?

The definition of an RPG is, acording to differant sources:

Long games with elaborate storylines that involve going on a quest and building experience that makes the PC stronger (ie, Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons ).

A role-playing game (RPG) is a type of game where players assume the roles of fictional characters via role-playing.

How is Oblivion, or Morrowind, NOT an RPG acording to those definitions? Or are you going to go 'An RPG means you PLAY a CHARACTER, using STATs, doing actions based on CHANCE.'

But here's a better example: A freshly cooked meal is harder to make than a TV dinner. Which one tastes better if done well?

Your analogy is flawed and broken. Sprites are not a freshly cooked meal, nor are 3D models a TV dinner. Proper 3D models are quite complex, as you should well know, and are capable of a differant set of capabilities rather then Sprites.

Lets go over what a 2D sprite gives you. 2D sprites gives the artist full control of whats displayed on screen, in a manner thats far easier to control whats displayed then 3D models. The eye can be led to specific details, stuff can be toyed with, I'm sure you understand basic graphic design atleast as well as I do.
3D models give you several things, among them is an increase in workflow speeds, further more, 3D models enable a differant class of effects relating to the models, which are quite difficult to do. Furthermore, 3D models are easier to scale with regards to quality, resolution, and preformance.

Last,

And I care... why? Elite was 3D. So were it's sequels Frontier and First Encounters. Then Privateer was sprite based. Then Freespace and Freelancer were 3D. Then Space Rangers was sprite based and entirely 2D. Space Rangers is the most recent of that list, and it uses sprites. Despite the full technological abilities to make it 3D (in fact, Space Rangers 2 has a 3D RTS mode). So your argument holds no water.

Your point being? If you're trying to make a point about the graphics standing the test of time, I'm not getting it.

Freespace 2=still looks good.
Space Rangers= Uh...okay...That's supposed to impress me?

Also, from a cursory look at Space Rangers videos from Gamespot, this looks less like normal 'sprites', more like using a 3D engine with what are basically 2D models. Nevermind that it seems to look like shit, again, making me miss the point.

Is there some sort of subtle stunning graphcis that I'm supposed to notice, that prove the supiority of sprites?

[Hotfoot]

It was a throwaway comparison I didn't bring up again until you decided to take massive issue with it.

Hey, you attacked me for daring to question your "aesthetic view", shithead. Not my fault you can't be bothered to learn what that phrase even means, much less use it correctly. Your OPINION of if you like it or not is aesthetic. The comparisons and claims you've been making since then have NOT been.

And I care... why? Elite was 3D. So were it's sequels Frontier and First Encounters. Then Privateer was sprite based. Then Freespace and Freelancer were 3D. Then Space Rangers was sprite based and entirely 2D. Space Rangers is the most recent of that list, and it uses sprites. Despite the full technological abilities to make it 3D (in fact, Space Rangers 2 has a 3D RTS mode). So your argument holds no water.

Hey, Que Que, what's easier, making a world from 3D models and textures, or making billions of sprites that can be viewed from any angle? The reason 3D games didn't work well initially was, shock, LACK OF COMPUTATIONAL POWER. Because sprites are simpler, you could get better looking games from them for less power. They did, however, have limitations, because they were less versatile and sophisticated than pure 3D games.

How warped is YOUR thinking to automatically assume the worst case scenario in my analogy?
But here's a better example: A freshly cooked meal is harder to make than a TV dinner. Which one tastes better if done well?
Don't think too hard about it, now.

Your analogy? Bitch, it was my analogy and you didn't seem to grasp it, so I fucking corrected you. Pay attention Que Que. But hey, you're the one that claimed that blacksmith-built gun is "lovingly hand made" while the manufactured gun is cold and worthless. Here's a better analogy for you, Que Que, would you rather go online with a computer lovingly hand-crafted from the finest of vacuum tubes and punchcards, or the cold, soulless technology you're currently using? Which will play your games better, a Dell, or motherfucking ENIAC? This isn't about food you fucking moron, it's about technology! Get with the fucking program you brainless little puke!

You're a complete idiot aren't you? Both the PSP and DS can handle 3D graphics on a level that almost matches the PS2. Seen Super Mario DS, Starfox Command, MGS: Portable Ops and Valhalla Knights?

Oh yes, I'm a moron because I prevented you from using sprite-based games on handhelds as a point I'd have to defeat later instead of sooner. Oh no, whatever shall I do? Yes, shithead, I know they can handle 3D, but they are still limited because, shock, they're handhelds.

They may have the legal rights. They don't have the moral rights. Whether you care about that or not is not my concern.

It certainly seems to be a concern. Good god, moral rights. Go ahead and explain this one, bitchtits, it should be good for a laugh.

Your degeneration into long, drawn out insults says more about your fanboyishness than anything I could say.
Flaming for opinion is one thing, rabid ad hominem rants are quite another.

Hey shithead, did you miss the point where the vast majority of Fallout fans here like the trailer, or did your blood pressure rise so high your eyes started to bleed? You don't get to ignore a point just because Unca Hotty said a nasty word.

I don't give a shit about Vader's armour or whether the new armour looks like it or not. Again, it was a throaway comment which Hotfoot had to make a big issue about.

A throwaway comment you keep coming back to defend because it's your "aesthetic view". It ties into the ludicrious nature of your objection to the armor's change because it looks "so different" when everyone else says, "Nah man, it's almost identical, see? That, this, and these are all the same. There's some minor variation, but hey." It's this minor variation you've lept on like a rabid mongoose, and no manner of logic will put you do. Moreover, what makes it patently absurd is that when others point out the changes made in Van Buren to the design, you shrug and basically say "Black Isle works in mysterious ways, it is not ours to question why, or to criticise them, but WOE unto the Bethesda developers, should they but make ONE CHANGE to the holy powered armor, for that is sacrosanct!"

It's moral only in the sense of design credibility. Why buy the rights to something then drastically alter it? If you wanted something that different, why not make your own suit of power armor?

And this is the next part that doesn't make a damn bit of sense. The changes are relatively minor, not a "drastic" alteration like you keep harping on. The general shape is the same, most, if not all of the connect points are the same, and the helmet is damn near identical. If you want drastic, all you need to do is look at the Herc Mk1 vs. Herc Mk2 I posted earlier, THAT'S drastic, and it came from the same company.

[Cao Cao]

Fuck this.

HEY DIPSHIT, GET A DICTIONARY.

Do you know what an RPG is?

How is Oblivion, or Morrowind, NOT an RPG acording to those definitions? Or are you going to go 'An RPG means you PLAY a CHARACTER, using STATs, doing actions based on CHANCE.'

You do realise that by those definitions.. Megaman is an RPG, right?

Your analogy is flawed and broken. Sprites are not a freshly cooked meal, nor are 3D models a TV dinner. Proper 3D models are quite complex, as you should well know, and are capable of a differant set of capabilities rather then Sprites.

Lets go over what a 2D sprite gives you. 2D sprites gives the artist full control of whats displayed on screen, in a manner thats far easier to control whats displayed then 3D models. The eye can be led to specific details, stuff can be toyed with, I'm sure you understand basic graphic design atleast as well as I do.
3D models give you several things, among them is an increase in workflow speeds, further more, 3D models enable a differant class of effects relating to the models, which are quite difficult to do. Furthermore, 3D models are easier to scale with regards to quality, resolution, and preformance.

Your point? My analogy was to counter the ridiculous hand-made gun vs. mass produced. I know sprites and models have different uses. That's my point - that models do not automatically outdate sprites.

Your point being? If you're trying to make a point about the graphics standing the test of time, I'm not getting it.

My only point is that sprites are not a thing of the past.

Freespace 2=still looks good.
Space Rangers= Uh...okay...That's supposed to impress me?

Also, from a cursory look at Space Rangers videos from Gamespot, this looks less like normal 'sprites', more like using a 3D engine with what are basically 2D models. Nevermind that it seems to look like shit, again, making me miss the point.

Is there some sort of subtle stunning graphcis that I'm supposed to notice, that prove the supiority of sprites?

Christ. If you haven't played the game don't even comment on it. Videos indeed. It looks perfectly fine, and fluid. And again, my point is not that sprites are superior, it's that sprites are not obsolete.

[Ace Pace]

The general shape is the same, most, if not all of the connect points are the same, and the helmet is damn near identical. If you want drastic, all you need to do is look at the Herc Mk1 vs. Herc Mk2 I posted earlier, THAT'S drastic, and it came from the same company.

Hey hey hey, no dragging my sacred game in there. Yes, the Herc Mk2 compared to the Mk1, is a shit change, however it still works in games with the verse. Further more, the Herc 2 could SO kick the Hercs Mk1's ass all over the fucking Nebula.

[loomer]

Just a quick question, has everyone paused to consider that the BoS may have, in the 80 years since Fallout 2, begun to create NEW suits? It may strain SOD a little to believe they have the technology, but it would help explain the truly unimportant design differences.

And in regards to every BoS paladin being from the one location, I was of the opinion the Vault Dweller became a Paladin, as Rhombus says, and this is directly from the .msg files (Or at least, from the Fallout Wiki's copies.) "Possibly. When the invading army is vanquished, come back to be trained" when asked if the Vault Dweller could become a paladin. We know he was initiated into the BoS, so accordingly not every member is from the Mariposa base.

And in regards to the "logically there should be no BoS on the east coast", if we count Fallout Tactics, there was a splinter group on the east coast. Admittedly, I don't think anyone really WANTS to acknowledge that game's existence, but still, it's there as a possibility.

[Hotfoot]

The general shape is the same, most, if not all of the connect points are the same, and the helmet is damn near identical. If you want drastic, all you need to do is look at the Herc Mk1 vs. Herc Mk2 I posted earlier, THAT'S drastic, and it came from the same company.

Hey hey hey, no dragging my sacred game in there. Yes, the Herc Mk2 compared to the Mk1, is a shit change, however it still works in games with the verse. Further more, the Herc 2 could SO kick the Hercs Mk1's ass all over the fucking Nebula.

You cannot understand the machinations I have wrought. You must give in to the destroyers...become one with them...

[Ace Pace]

You do realise that by those definitions.. Megaman is an RPG, right?

Are you sure english is your first language?

and building experience that makes the PC stronger (ie, Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons ).

or

via role-playing.

Tell me, where in MegaMan do you roleplay? or build experiance?

Stop attackings everyone's points just because they don't masturbate to your god.

Your point? My analogy was to counter the ridiculous hand-made gun vs. mass produced. I know sprites and models have different uses. That's my point - that models do not automatically outdate sprites.

But for practically ALL modern game design choices, models DO out-date sprites, due to ease of production! When you have games that must scale from 640x480 to 2000xwhatever+, then sprites are NOT workable, unless you want to do some horrible scaling.

My only point is that sprites are not a thing of the past.

No, but for any game that wants to reach mass market, they rarely fit the bill.

Christ. If you haven't played the game don't even comment on it. Videos indeed. It looks perfectly fine, and fluid. And again, my point is not that sprites are superior, it's that sprites are not obsolete.

And my point is even simpler, since I don't care about Fallout, your Bethesda hatred, whether Oblivion rocks or not.

Models, for practically all modern mass market games, are the better choice, financially, artistically and enable things that are quite difficult to do with sprites.

EDIT: Don't comment on it?
Have you played Fallout 3? No, then don't comment on it. Thank you gentlemen, we may now lock the thread.

[Cao Cao]

It was a throwaway comparison I didn't bring up again until you decided to take massive issue with it.

Hey, you attacked me for daring to question your "aesthetic view", shithead. Not my fault you can't be bothered to learn what that phrase even means, much less use it correctly. Your OPINION of if you like it or not is aesthetic. The comparisons and claims you've been making since then have NOT been.

None of which are based around my opinion of a resemblance to Darth Vader, you idiot.

Hey, Que Que, what's easier, making a world from 3D models and textures, or making billions of sprites that can be viewed from any angle? The reason 3D games didn't work well initially was, shock, LACK OF COMPUTATIONAL POWER. Because sprites are simpler, you could get better looking games from them for less power. They did, however, have limitations, because they were less versatile and sophisticated than pure 3D games.

Elite worked perfectly well, you moron. Space Rangers and Privateer went with sprites as a design decision, not because 3D was so very bad at that point.

Your analogy? Bitch, it was my analogy and you didn't seem to grasp it, so I fucking corrected you. Pay attention Que Que. But hey, you're the one that claimed that blacksmith-built gun is "lovingly hand made" while the manufactured gun is cold and worthless. Here's a better analogy for you, Que Que, would you rather go online with a computer lovingly hand-crafted from the finest of vacuum tubes and punchcards, or the cold, soulless technology you're currently using? Which will play your games better, a Dell, or motherfucking ENIAC? This isn't about food you fucking moron, it's about technology! Get with the fucking program you brainless little puke!

No, jackass. I corrected you. How do you automatically assume a blacksmith is going to do a terrible job?
Hey I know, I'll assume the assembly line's been badly maintained and the guns are all shoddily made! There goes your analogy.
The rest is a complete red herring and you know it. Sprites are not technologically inferior to 3D models.

Oh yes, I'm a moron because I prevented you from using sprite-based games on handhelds as a point I'd have to defeat later instead of sooner. Oh no, whatever shall I do? Yes, shithead, I know they can handle 3D, but they are still limited because, shock, they're handhelds.

You really are a moron! They're not fucking limited at all. The PSP is more powerful than a PSone which had a massive amount of 3D games and again, MGS and Valhalla Knights look almost as good as PS2 titles.
So you're full of shit! Prove your ridiculous assertion that handhelds are limited because they're handhelds.

It certainly seems to be a concern. Good god, moral rights. Go ahead and explain this one, bitchtits, it should be good for a laugh.

Already did.

Hey shithead, did you miss the point where the vast majority of Fallout fans here like the trailer, or did your blood pressure rise so high your eyes started to bleed? You don't get to ignore a point just because Unca Hotty said a nasty word.

I'm not commenting on the trailer though, am I? I'm commenting on the armour specifically, and Bethesda's track record.

A throwaway comment you keep coming back to defend because it's your "aesthetic view". It ties into the ludicrious nature of your objection to the armor's change because it looks "so different" when everyone else says, "Nah man, it's almost identical, see? That, this, and these are all the same. There's some minor variation, but hey." It's this minor variation you've lept on like a rabid mongoose, and no manner of logic will put you do.

I keep defending it because you keep mentioning it, space chief.

Moreover, what makes it patently absurd is that when others point out the changes made in Van Buren to the design, you shrug and basically say "Black Isle works in mysterious ways, it is not ours to question why, or to criticise them, but WOE unto the Bethesda developers, should they but make ONE CHANGE to the holy powered armor, for that is sacrosanct!"

Strawman and misinterpretation, since Black Isle's design was minimally changed. And all I said that Black Isle has a basic right to change their own design that they made and Bethesda didn't.

And this is the next part that doesn't make a damn bit of sense. The changes are relatively minor, not a "drastic" alteration like you keep harping on. The general shape is the same, most, if not all of the connect points are the same, and the helmet is damn near identical. If you want drastic, all you need to do is look at the Herc Mk1 vs. Herc Mk2 I posted earlier, THAT'S drastic, and it came from the same company.

Except this isn't Mk2 of the same armour, since the BoS never had any others than the T-51. So it's the same armour and it has been changed drastically. You are obviously not familiar with the classic design since you apparently only recently bothered to look at a picture of one, that only shows the helmet.

And if it turns out to be a different armour, then Bethesda just pissed all over established canon. Yay.

[Hotfoot]

Just a quick question, has everyone paused to consider that the BoS may have, in the 80 years since Fallout 2, begun to create NEW suits? It may strain SOD a little to believe they have the technology, but it would help explain the truly unimportant design differences.

No! Shut up! They kept them in pristine condition without any new factories and hand-made parts and loving care! Because hand-crafted love means IDENTICAL results to cold, callous, machine-crafted parts made nearly a century ago from an infrastructure that no longer exists.

NO! It must be identical! Scrounging for parts or making new factories to keep old tech running is illogical and ruins the game! Powered armor can't be damaged! There's no need to make new parts! YOU HATE FALLOUT! YOU'RE NOT A TRUE FAN! BEGONE FROM MY SIGHT LEST I STONE YOU AS THE HOLY VAN BUREN DEMANDS!



Seriously though, that's pretty much what I figured, but Que Que here has such a raging hardon for a nonexistant game that he can't accept something like that. You see, here's the problem. It makes sense.

[Cao Cao]

Tell me, where in MegaMan do you roleplay? or build experiance?

As the series progressed, Megaman is given more and more dialogue so yes, you could potentially roleplay as him.
Megaman also gains experience by defeating his enemies, gaining more health, more powers and new items.

But for practically ALL modern game design choices, models DO out-date sprites, due to ease of production! When you have games that must scale from 640x480 to 2000xwhatever+, then sprites are NOT workable, unless you want to do some horrible scaling.

What the hell kind of modern game would need to scale from 640x480?
"Oh noes I have my dual core processor and 8800GTS but I need to play in 640x480!!!"

No, but for any game that wants to reach mass market, they rarely fit the bill.

Irrelevant, since the mass market is made of Halo-worshipping dullards.

And my point is even simpler, since I don't care about Fallout, your Bethesda hatred, whether Oblivion rocks or not.

Fair enough. Why are you arguing then?

Models, for practically all modern mass market games, are the better choice, financially, artistically and enable things that are quite difficult to do with sprites.

Perhaps. This still does not make sprites a thing of the past.
Keep in mind I'm not saying Fallout 3 should be sprite based. Simply defending sprites from people who think they're "past it".

EDIT: Don't comment on it?
Have you played Fallout 3? No, then don't comment on it. Thank you gentlemen, we may now lock the thread.

I'm commenting on design aesthetics of a single piece of armour shown in a detailed picture and Bethesda's track record. You're commenting on graphics you've seen in a video of a game that's been out for years.

Just a quick question, has everyone paused to consider that the BoS may have, in the 80 years since Fallout 2, begun to create NEW suits? It may strain SOD a little to believe they have the technology, but it would help explain the truly unimportant design differences.

No! Shut up! They kept them in pristine condition without any new factories and hand-made parts and loving care! Because hand-crafted love means IDENTICAL results to cold, callous, machine-crafted parts made nearly a century ago from an infrastructure that no longer exists.

NO! It must be identical! Scrounging for parts or making new factories to keep old tech running is illogical and ruins the game! Powered armor can't be damaged! There's no need to make new parts! YOU HATE FALLOUT! YOU'RE NOT A TRUE FAN! BEGONE FROM MY SIGHT LEST I STONE YOU AS THE HOLY VAN BUREN DEMANDS!



Seriously though, that's pretty much what I figured, but Que Que here has such a raging hardon for a nonexistant game that he can't accept something like that. You see, here's the problem. It makes sense.

Your opinion is meaningless, jackass. I'm talking about WHAT WAS ESTABLISHED IN FALLOUT 1.
I don't give a fuck if you don't think it makes sense, or if you don't care about Fallout lore.

[Ace Pace]

What the hell kind of modern game would need to scale from 640x480?
"Oh noes I have my dual core processor and 8800GTS but I need to play in 640x480!!!"

Heard of porting?

Irrelevant, since the mass market is made of Halo-worshipping dullards.

*yawns* When someone dismisses most of the market because they don't fit his taste, as X-worshipping dullards, you can pretty much know he's ignorable. I hope, that you're ont that dumb, and can recognise that many of the most sucessful games of all time, have been quite innovative. Halo among them, for a console FPS.

Fair enough. Why are you arguing then?

Because you touch yourself at night. Or because I have an urgent need to drown my sorrows in the wails and lamentations of the internet. Pick whichever feeds your narcissim more.

I'm commenting on design aesthetics of a single piece of armour shown in a detailed picture and Bethesda's track record. You're commenting on graphics you've seen in a video of a game that's been out for years.

Do I need to say anything else? This speaks for itself.

[loomer]

Your opinion is meaningless, jackass. I'm talking about WHAT WAS ESTABLISHED IN FALLOUT 1.
I don't give a fuck if you don't think it makes sense, or if you don't care about Fallout lore.

Further research shows the existence of Type-45D power armour, an earlier model. Why, I don't suppose that could possibly look grittier and poorly maintained by comparison to the 51. And, while according to the lore, only the Enclave had the technology to produce new suits, is it not feasible for such to have been recovered by the BoS?

[Hotfoot]

None of which are based around my opinion of a resemblance to Darth Vader, you idiot.

That I threw in to taunt you. The comparisons between the two suits are still valid, shithead, and that's still not covered by "aesthetic view".

Elite worked perfectly well, you moron. Space Rangers and Privateer went with sprites as a design decision, not because 3D was so very bad at that point.

Oh really? You mean those multicolored triangles from Elite looked just as good as the sprites that could be any shape or array of colors? Well sir, you've sold me on the validity of your point, but just for shits and giggles, why don't we actually see if we can make one that's more valid than "not at all". Moreover, you evaded my question. What's easier, making a world from 3D models and textures, or making billions of sprites that can be viewed from any angle? Answer the question.

No, jackass. I corrected you. How do you automatically assume a blacksmith is going to do a terrible job?
Hey I know, I'll assume the assembly line's been badly maintained and the guns are all shoddily made! There goes your analogy.
The rest is a complete red herring and you know it. Sprites are not technologically inferior to 3D models.

A blacksmith, using the tools a motherfucking blacksmith has, can at best make a ghetto AK-47. A proper machine shop can make a custom-tooled minigun, sniper rifle, or even stock AR with much higher specifications and performance. Meanwhile, more evasion. Which is better at running a game, a modern Dell, or ENIAC?

Sprites are technologically inferior to 3D models, dipshit. Hell, a proper 3D model has a sprite as a component OF it. What sprite has a 3D model as a component of it? And god help me if you say a sprite that's a screenshot of a 3D model I will end you.

You really are a moron! They're not fucking limited at all. The PSP is more powerful than a PSone which had a massive amount of 3D games and again, MGS and Valhalla Knights look almost as good as PS2 titles.
So you're full of shit! Prove your ridiculous assertion that handhelds are limited because they're handhelds.

Hey shithead, they're handhelds, of COURSE they're limited in comparison to contemporary consoles and computers. I'm not talking about comparing them to technology from ten years ago, jesus, what's wrong with you? Modern tech, PS3, 360, Modern PC. Maybe PS2, but you acknowledged that they're still not better than the PS2, so we'll move on.

It certainly seems to be a concern. Good god, moral rights. Go ahead and explain this one, bitchtits, it should be good for a laugh.

Already did.

No no, I mean explain why you think that Moral Rights matter, what they are, and how they apply to this situation specifically. Go. now. Do it.

I'm not commenting on the trailer though, am I? I'm commenting on the armour specifically, and Bethesda's track record.

Translation: "I'm not commenting on the trailer, just something that was in the trailer."

Shit for brains, if you're commenting on something IN THE FUCKING TRAILER, you're commenting ON THE FUCKING TRAILER. Fucking hell, how old are you, twelve?

I keep defending it because you keep mentioning it, space chief.

Even though it's a point you supposedly don't care about? If you don't care and it's a throwaway, conceed that you fucked up and move on, don't pretend like it was something valid.

Strawman and misinterpretation, since Black Isle's design was minimally changed. And all I said that Black Isle has a basic right to change their own design that they made and Bethesda didn't.

Minimally changed in that they removed almost all the detail from it, specifically the helmet, even though technology existed to let them look almost exactly like it did on the cover. Moreover, it's not a misinterpretation or a strawman to say that you let Black Isle get away with the same sort of activity you're accusing Bethesda of, all the while singing BI's praises and damning Bethesda. That's about as two-faced as you can get, and the only justification you can give is this nebulous concept you call "moral rights", which you refuse to explain in full.

Except this isn't Mk2 of the same armour, since the BoS never had any others than the T-51. So it's the same armour and it has been changed drastically. You are obviously not familiar with the classic design since you apparently only recently bothered to look at a picture of one, that only shows the helmet.

BoS on the West Coast never had any others than the T-51b in the timeframe shown in the first two games. Everything past that is unknown you dipshit. East Coast? The Future? Modifications to accept new parts due to gradual wear and tear? All of these have been put forward, and you reject each and every one of them out of hand for NO GOOD REASON.

And if it turns out to be a different armour, then Bethesda just pissed all over established canon. Yay.

Oh noes, canon. Can't alter that even a bit! No siree-bob! Can't add to it neither, that might upset some fans! Shouldn't even have a new story, Bethesda didn't buy the rights to a new story, and they can't earn it from the fans, so making anything other than a remake of Fallout 1 or 2 or both is right out.

Naturally, you don't see how ridiculous this is, because you are clearly mad, be it with rage, intolerance, or just rabies.

[Ace Pace]

That's about as two-faced as you can get, and the only justification you can give is this nebulous concept you call "moral rights", which you refuse to explain in full.

No no no, you see, ONLY THE ORIGINAL creator can change anything. Anyone buying the IP from the creator MUST observe every single niggling point about the canon.

[Pulp Hero]

Cao Cao, no one cares but you. Shut your fucking cock hole so that this thread can talk about the new Fallout game rather than how it is different or "violating" the spirit of Fallout. No one is on your side so just quit already.

[Netko]

Elite worked perfectly well, you moron. Space Rangers and Privateer went with sprites as a design decision, not because 3D was so very bad at that point.

Oh really? You mean those multicolored triangles from Elite looked just as good as the sprites that could be any shape or array of colors? Well sir, you've sold me on the validity of your point, but just for shits and giggles, why don't we actually see if we can make one that's more valid than "not at all". Moreover, you evaded my question. What's easier, making a world from 3D models and textures, or making billions of sprites that can be viewed from any angle? Answer the question.

Lets compare just to reiterate the point. Frontier (Elite 2) and the already mentioned Privateer are both games released in 1993.

Privateer:


Frontier:


Hmm, yes, I can see how "3D was not so very bad at that point", especially compared to sprites. Not.

The fact that sprites mostly went the way of the dodo as soon as the tech was up to doing 3d in similar quality should tell you something about them, Cao Cao.