How long did the Atreides hold Arrakis?

[Gil Hamilton]

Besides, nuking Arrakis, or the equivlent, is a bad idea because Harkonnen couldn't afford to destroy Dune's infrastructure, which the entire universe depended on. If they did anything to threaten the spice flow by sheer carnage, the Spacing Guild would have Harkonnen's balls before the Great Houses even got to him.

[Lord Pounder]

IIRC the majority of the Arakeen Palace's staff where moved way underground exactly for fear that the Harkonen would use a Lasgun on a timer against the House Shields. Several shipments of Lasguns where uncovered by Leto's troops, but it's likely they where a red herring to get the Atreides comfortable before the kill.

[Alex Moon]

I'm fairly certain even Paul did not use atomics against living targets.

He didn't. During the final showdown with the Emperor, Paul even points out that he has only used nukes to alter the landscape (breaching the shield wall), thus staying within the conventions.

[Master_Baerne]

However, I don't know how the aforementioned story factors into canon. I don't think an enemy force of less then a hundred thousand could have exterminated a noble household the size of a medium sized country in one fell swoop, no matter how brutal the Sardaukar are.

Not all of the Atreides personnel would have been combat troops. If House Atreides was like a modern nation in terms of soldier/civilian population ratios, there could easily be few enough Atreides troops for the Sardaukar assault force to destroy them. (If I remember right, the Sardaukar were individually rated at being roughly as effective as around five Landsraad troops at the time of the attack, down from their all-time high of about ten.)

And the reason the Sardaukar are part of the op at all is that the Atreides army is as good as they are.

[Setzer]

I'm fairly certain even Paul did not use atomics against living targets.

He didn't. During the final showdown with the Emperor, Paul even points out that he has only used nukes to alter the landscape (breaching the shield wall), thus staying within the conventions.

The injucntion specifically states that use of atomics against humans is cause for planetary obliteration.

[Stormbringer]

I'm fairly certain even Paul did not use atomics against living targets.

He didn't. During the final showdown with the Emperor, Paul even points out that he has only used nukes to alter the landscape (breaching the shield wall), thus staying within the conventions.

The injucntion specifically states that use of atomics against humans is cause for planetary obliteration.

Not planetary obliteration, at least not in classic Dune, rather it's the House is declared anathema and hunted down.

[Setzer]

Really? My version has Paul quoting the injunction as I did.

[Master_Baerne]

Really? My version has Paul quoting the injunction as I did.

Same here. He circumventes that by blasting the Shield Wall, which is a large bit of rock.

[Setzer]

How would that have worked out if he had nuked humans? The Landsraad would be chomping at the bit to go down and destroy Paul. OTOH, the Spacing Guild wouldn't dare do anything that would make Paul destroy the spice.

[Gil Hamilton]

How would that have worked out if he had nuked humans? The Landsraad would be chomping at the bit to go down and destroy Paul. OTOH, the Spacing Guild wouldn't dare do anything that would make Paul destroy the spice.

Actually, at that point, the Landsraad may not have been able to do anything. The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on space travel and with Maud'dib able to destroy the Spice, there is no way they'd let Landsraad cut them off by going after all. Remember, the Spacing Guild was so powerful that by them submitting to Paul, he just "requested" the Imperial princess and voting control of the CHOAM. And he got it. It's hard to conceive that Paul could be touched at that point, atomics used or not.

[Stormbringer]

How would that have worked out if he had nuked humans? The Landsraad would be chomping at the bit to go down and destroy Paul. OTOH, the Spacing Guild wouldn't dare do anything that would make Paul destroy the spice.

"You nuked people."

"I'll destroy the spice."

"We give up. They were dicks anyway."

The fact that Paul had absolute control over spice production, indeed could wipe it out, meant that they had to do what he wanted. At best any option weilded by CHOAM or the Space Guild would have seen both sides go down hard. So they had to play along whether they liked it or not.

[Alex Moon]

Even with his control of the Spice, Paul still had problems bringing the Landsraad to heel. It's reasonable to assume that his family history and his exploits on Arrakis won him some allies among the other houses. Using atomics would have elminated any support he had from the other houses and made his rise to the throne a hell of a lot bloodier.

[brianeyci]

Is that how they played the later Dune novels, Paul getting whatever he wanted since he controlled the spice? Lame. That's not how MAD works. I didn't see America dictating terms to Russia in the height of the cold war. Or the Middle East dictating terms to America just because they control all the oil. He would've needed allies and friends, and with no support he might not have ascended the throne at all and just been a two-bit salesman. As soon as he turned his back he would've been assassinated, especially if he had Imperial ambitions and wanted off Arrakis.

They might not have openly attacked Paul over atomics doesn't mean they couldn't make life really hard for him.

[Cykeisme]

A minor digression, if someone would indulge me.

How are the Fremen such effective fighters? Do they have superhuman or near-superhuman powers, or do they use advanced guerilla tactics or something?

[Lord Woodlouse]

Is that how they played the later Dune novels, Paul getting whatever he wanted since he controlled the spice? Lame. That's not how MAD works. I didn't see America dictating terms to Russia in the height of the cold war. Or the Middle East dictating terms to America just because they control all the oil. He would've needed allies and friends, and with no support he might not have ascended the throne at all and just been a two-bit salesman. As soon as he turned his back he would've been assassinated, especially if he had Imperial ambitions and wanted off Arrakis.

They might not have openly attacked Paul over atomics doesn't mean they couldn't make life really hard for him.

Except Paul was already in a desperate position since his House had been all but destroyed. He had nothing to lose, and could utterly destroy the Empire's backbone in a single moment. It was not comparable to the Cold War or the Middle East. It was one man, betrayed by the Emperor and most of everything that was of value to him taken away with the capacity to destroy all spice on Arrakis in an instant. There's no comparison in all of Earth history.

[The Grim Squeaker]

A minor digression, if someone would indulge me.

How are the Fremen such effective fighters? Do they have superhuman or near-superhuman powers, or do they use advanced guerilla tactics or something?

They were normal humans, though were considerably above the human "average" (The whole "Only the toughest survive" schtick/"Darwinism" ).

Their main traits was their ruthless fanatacism (They really did use their babbies to block swords as the Sardukar attested) or in other words making even the most insane portrayals of Japanese by Japanese WW2 propaganda look like sloths by comparison.

They were also very well trained in combat and survival techniques (Remember, they did not have the crutch of shields and were amazing Close-Combat-fighters), and had very advanced guerilla tactics from far before they got training by a man trained by the finest minds in the Imperium. (He also trained some of his Fedaykin in Bene Gesserit combat techniques, but I may be confused with the Lynch movie again... ).

[Cykeisme]

They really did use their babbies to block swords as the Sardukar attested

Please tell me that is NOT a typo of "babies"

[Stormbringer]

Is that how they played the later Dune novels, Paul getting whatever he wanted since he controlled the spice? Lame. That's not how MAD works.

That's not the situation. At the end of Dune, Paul has virtually no reason not to destroy the entire Empire if he isn't obeyed. The entire power structure of the Empire pretty much conspired to bring down his House and kill his family. The only people that mattered to him were on Arrakis and his people were in control of the planet. So he was ready and willing to actually push it through, something which was never the case with the US or USSR.

By the time of the second book, that's changed entirely because he is the Padashah Emperor. And then it's "I'll cut you off from spice production and sic the Fremen on you." which is not MAD, but certainly effective. Destroying the spice and Arrakis are a last resort. That's pretty much the same thing that applies to Alia during her time as Regent, but her grip on power was never as stable.

They might not have openly attacked Paul over atomics doesn't mean they couldn't make life really hard for him.

They can and indeed the next two books deal quite heavily with the political intrigue that goes on regarding Paul's reign and that of his heirs. There is a good deal of political intrigue and backstabbing going on; it never really stopped. However it is a matter of doing it under changed rules in which one can only push it so far.

(He also trained some of his Fedaykin in Bene Gesserit combat techniques, but I may be confused with the Lynch movie again... ).

That's from the books, though I believe the Lynch movies were where it started getting over the top in the depictions.

[The Grim Squeaker]

They really did use their babbies to block swords as the Sardukar attested

Please tell me that is NOT a typo of "babies"

It is.

The Sardukar, elite terror troops were shocked by the sheer ferocity of the old men & Fremen Women who tossed their babies at them. (This is almost certainly not hyperbole, what with it being a direct report to the Emperor himself).

That's from the books, though I believe the Lynch movies were where it started getting over the top in the depictions.

Ah the joys of "Super Sonic kick attack!" . Nice to know I haven't lost it completely.

Except Paul was already in a desperate position since his House had been all but destroyed. He had nothing to lose, and could utterly destroy the Empire's backbone in a single moment.

An additional point, besides the psychological/"One man" issue, the destruction of space travel without the presence of the infrastructure or technology needed to replace it would have utterly decimated Human interstellar civilization, destroying the populations of planets used to getting their food from other planets as well as industry (No Ix or Richese products for example, no Mentats to be shipped and the death of the Elite and ruling classes from Spice withdrawal).

The situation would best be analoged to the destruction of all Fuel/Gasoline, Diesel Gas, coal and batteries on earth after Horses had become extinct and the Donkey was only a memory, with the distances and effects increased a billion-fold.

[Setzer]

The Spacing Guild also would have had to publicly support Paul. They'd never dare endanger their supply of spice. Paul was Padishah Emperor, and the Fremen were his new Sardaukar. That's 2 of the three legs of the power tripod in Paul's favor.

[Master_Baerne]

Is that how they played the later Dune novels, Paul getting whatever he wanted since he controlled the spice? Lame. That's not how MAD works. I didn't see America dictating terms to Russia in the height of the cold war. Or the Middle East dictating terms to America just because they control all the oil. He would've needed allies and friends, and with no support he might not have ascended the throne at all and just been a two-bit salesman. As soon as he turned his back he would've been assassinated, especially if he had Imperial ambitions and wanted off Arrakis.

They might not have openly attacked Paul over atomics doesn't mean they couldn't make life really hard for him.

But this isn't MAD. It's either you let the man get what he wants, or the entire universe is made uninhabitable, or at least unexplorable, for centuries, if not millenia. The Imperium, the pinnacle of civilization, will falter, wither, and die. The noble houses lose their power. Not good.

[xerex]

.

For MAD to work there has to be something MUTUAL.

In this case Paul controls ALL spice production, all Space transport (he has the Guild by the balls and he's bribing the Smugglers) and he's got the best troops in the Galaxy.

But in any case Books 2 and 3 dont work like what you described. Not all planets submit to Paul and so he unleashes the Jihad. His Fremen kill billions upon billions. He even comments that Hitler and Ghenghis Khan pale in comparison to his slaughter. He also cuts recalcitrant planets off from spice. I seem to recall him denying spice to Richesse or Ix ?

and its not like the Landsraad can retaliate cuase they have no transport.

[Steel]

its not like the Landsraad can retaliate cuase they have no transport.

Thing i found funny about Dune was the way in which all the major powers are dependant on what is effectively public transport to get around. Can you imagine a modern war being fought where both sides had to take the bus to get around?

[Gil Hamilton]

It makes you wonder how they got around before Arrakis and the Guild navigators. I seem to recall that they could travel through space the same way, it just that getting there in one piece in a reliable manner required you to actually be able to see into the future in order to find your way through folded space.

Of course, I suppose that the technology for the space drive might only exist in Guild hands by the time of the events of Dune.

[Alan Bolte]

IIRC, space travel was easy before the Butlerian Jihad. The Navigators are needed primarily because no one has computers anymore.