NATO officials say they have caught Iran red-handed, shipping heavy arms, C4 explosives and advanced roadside bombs to the Taliban for use against NATO forces, in what the officials say is a dramatic escalation of Iran's proxy war against the United States and Great Britain.
"It is inconceivable that it is anyone other than the Iranian government that's doing it," said former White House counterterrorism official Richard Clarke, an ABC News consultant.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates stopped short earlier this week of blaming Iran, saying the U.S. did not have evidence "of the involvement of the Iranian government in support of the Taliban."
But an analysis by a senior coalition official, obtained by the Blotter on ABCNews.com, concludes there is clear evidence of Iran's involvement.
"This is part of a considered policy," says the analysis, "rather than the result of low-level corruption and weapons smuggling."
Iran and the Taliban had been fierce enemies when the Taliban was in power in Afghanistan, and their apparent collaboration came as a surprise to some in the intelligence community.
"I think their goal is to make it very clear that Iran has the capability to make life worse for the United States on a variety of fronts," said Seth Jones of the Rand Institute, "even if they have to do some business with a group that has historically been their enemy."
The coalition analysis says munitions recovered in two Iranian convoys, on April 11 and May 3, had "clear indications that they originated in Iran. Some were identical to Iranian supplied goods previously discovered in Iraq."
I belive this at the same time you guys find those WMD's
[img=right]http://hem.bredband.net/b217293/warsaban.gif[/img] "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus
Fear is the mother of all gods.
Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods. -Lucretius
Faram wrote:I belive this at the same time you guys find those WMD's
It is not that implausable that Iran is supplying weapons.
No it is not, but America has a habbit of lying when it suites them so why should anyone belive them now?
[img=right]http://hem.bredband.net/b217293/warsaban.gif[/img] "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus
Fear is the mother of all gods.
Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods. -Lucretius
Faram wrote:...America has a habbit of lying when it suites them so why should anyone belive them now?
Not to mention the fact that the Taliban have had somewhat of a history of attracting support from larger powers that found them useful in fighting whatever proxy war they were currently engaged in ...
All of a sudden it's taboo, now that the support is coming from someone who's fighting against -- gasp -- the U.S.?
"Though so different in style, two writers have offered us an image for the next millennium: Joyce and Borges. The first designed with words what the second designed with ideas: the original, the one and only World Wide Web. The Real Thing. The rest will remain simply virtual." --Umberto Eco
Faram wrote:No it is not, but America has a habbit of lying when it suites them so why should anyone belive them now?
Except that starting another conflict with Iran does not suit America at this point and time. Rumsfeld could've easily taken advantage of numerous opportunities to rattle sabers over detonator components found in Iraq of Iranian manufacture years ago, and he backpedalled each time he was asked if that was his implication.
It is interesting that the strongest statements on the issue are coming from members of the Coalition other than the United States, which should add credibility, since one presumes that they would be less eager to rattle sabers than would the men in Washington.
As an aside, Bush's failure to utilize the case of the British sailors and marines as casus belli detracts powerfully from the arguments of those who claim that he is pushing for a war with Iran.
Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
If the situation has somehow reached the point where the Coalition is now ending that distinction, that deep-bred, Religious hatred, then we can officially say the Coalition is fucked right up the asshole.
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
I think the most widely known counter-example to that is Iranian support for Hamas. The relationship might not be as nearly close or paternal as Iran's with Hezbollah, but it exists and is freely admitted by both parties.
SirNitram wrote:Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
I think the most widely known counter-example to that is Iranian support for Hamas. The relationship might not be as nearly close or paternal as Iran's with Hezbollah, but it exists and is freely admitted by both parties.
This feeds into my point about how screwed the Coalition is, if it's now viewed as an Israel-style 'Greater of many evils'.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:This feeds into my point about how screwed the Coalition is, if it's now viewed as an Israel-style 'Greater of many evils'.
I don't know about screwed, but Iran has considered the US its enemy for almost thirty years, and I doubt their blind to the fact they have almost 200,000 American and NATO troops on almost all of their borders. But you are right to point out that Iran's grand strategy in Central Asia has changed immensely. Only six years ago they were one of the principal sponsors of the Northern Alliance.
Considering ancient Persia's reach and territorial lands, wouldn't Afghans be closer to persians than, say Arabs? I know they're Asians but everybody over there east of Africa technically is.[/code]
Golan III wrote:Considering ancient Persia's reach and territorial lands, wouldn't Afghans be closer to persians than, say Arabs? I know they're Asians but everybody over there east of Africa technically is.[/code]
It's a bit more granular than that. A good analogue might be Latin America, where there is strong Spanish and Portuguese linguistic ties due to a shared imperial and colonial heritage yet profound ethnic and cultural distinctions. For example, Dari (Farsi) is Afghanistan's principle language, yet the vast majority of Afghans are Sunnis and the plurality are Pashtuns (Persians and Turkomens are a trace minority). Iran is also ethnically fractured, only fifty percent Persian, a just under a quarter Azeri, and a healthy sprinkling of Kurds, Turkomens and others.
SirNitram wrote:This feeds into my point about how screwed the Coalition is, if it's now viewed as an Israel-style 'Greater of many evils'.
I don't know about screwed, but Iran has considered the US its enemy for almost thirty years, and I doubt their blind to the fact they have almost 200,000 American and NATO troops on almost all of their borders. But you are right to point out that Iran's grand strategy in Central Asia has changed immensely. Only six years ago they were one of the principal sponsors of the Northern Alliance.
You're not quite grasping it. If you happen to view Iran as a very evil state who must be stopped while we happily continue to prop up the Sauds, then we have orchestrated a nightmare if this proves true: Iranian influence is spreading regardless of their religion. If they can trascend Arab-Persian hatred in this, the USA will have, in effect, created the next Arabian superpower. This also proves true if you, like me, view Iran as a nasty little bully whose sole saving grace is it might actually not collapse into total uselessness for the next thousand years when the oil runs out.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
I think the most widely known counter-example to that is Iranian support for Hamas. The relationship might not be as nearly close or paternal as Iran's with Hezbollah, but it exists and is freely admitted by both parties.
AFAIK Hamas ,while mainly Sunni, isnt an anti Shia organization. Similarly Iran , while Shia ,isnt anti Sunni either.
The Taliban however practiced a really bizarre from of Wahaabism that regarded all non Wahaabi-Sunnis as infidels.
xerex wrote:AFAIK Hamas ,while mainly Sunni, isnt an anti Shia organization. Similarly Iran , while Shia ,isnt anti Sunni either.
The Taliban however practiced a really bizarre from of Wahaabism that regarded all non Wahaabi-Sunnis as infidels.
Except the Taliban don't descend from Salafism/Wahhabism, they descend from the Deobandi revivalist tradition. That tradition has strong connections to the Qutb view, which of course is the predecessor of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and al Qaeda. All three are comparatively more tolerant of Sufism than Salafists. Also, Salafis, in the form of the GCC states, were always willing to do business with Tehran throughout most of post-WWII history. That's not to say there isn't an undercurrent of historical resentment that manifests spectacularly and violently between Shi'is and Sunnis to this day, but transnational, international and state organizations have generally been more willing to overlook these differences to meet common interests in the past.
SirNitram wrote:Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
Perhaps Iran would just like to keep Iraq deadly, so that the US forces stay too busy dodging bombs to even think about attacking Iran. If that means helping Sunnis, then there are bound to be some Iranians who are willing to do it discreetly.
SirNitram wrote:Now, I find this hard to beleive for one basic reason: Aren't the Taliban extremist Sunni, hence their offering refuge to A-Q? Extremist Sunni and Shi'a are not exactly likely to be helping each other out.
Perhaps Iran would just like to keep Iraq deadly, so that the US forces stay too busy dodging bombs to even think about attacking Iran. If that means helping Sunnis, then there are bound to be some Iranians who are willing to do it discreetly.
Oh, I have no doubt lots of Iranians want to extend their influence into Iraq. And there are Iraqi Shi'a. But it's the Sunni fundamentalist groups I was referring to.
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:You're not quite grasping it. If you happen to view Iran as a very evil state who must be stopped while we happily continue to prop up the Sauds, then we have orchestrated a nightmare if this proves true: Iranian influence is spreading regardless of their religion. If they can trascend Arab-Persian hatred in this, the USA will have, in effect, created the next Arabian superpower. This also proves true if you, like me, view Iran as a nasty little bully whose sole saving grace is it might actually not collapse into total uselessness for the next thousand years when the oil runs out.
Once again, the obvious objection to the argument that US actions are causing Iranian influence to expand regardless of their religion is to point out that Iran has a relationship with Hamas (and Islamic Jihad. You can say that US actions have changed Iran and the Taliban's previous animosity into a relationship where Tehran is provisioning yet another Sunni revivalist movement, but it's not the first time. As for Arab-Persian hatred, Syrians and Lebanese are Arabized enough to be broadly considered Arabs. While ajam is still a societal prejudice in most Arab countries and Saudi and Egypt are still cool towards Tehran, it did not prevent the Arabs from doing business with the Shah or the Islamic Republic from seeking to mend the fence with the GCC states (see, Oman) following the Iran-Iraq war.
Is this the 'Well, it's just pouring gasoline onto an already burning fire, so who gives a shit?' bullshit? The fact that the situation is worsening certainly deserves actual comment and discussion and not stupid 'Well, it's happened before, so who cares?'.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:Is this the 'Well, it's just pouring gasoline onto an already burning fire, so who gives a shit?' bullshit?
No, and I'd thank you for not reading more into my posts than necessary, especially when I've already said "you are right to point out that Iran's grand strategy in Central Asia has changed immensely. Only six years ago they were one of the principal sponsors of the Northern Alliance."
I primarily feel two emotions on this; complete distrust about ANY claim made by anyone associated with America, and amusement at Americans complaining about someone violently intervening in someone else's country. In other words, I don't buy it, and if it's true I don't care.
SirNitram wrote:Is this the 'Well, it's just pouring gasoline onto an already burning fire, so who gives a shit?' bullshit?
No, and I'd thank you for not reading more into my posts than necessary, especially when I've already said "you are right to point out that Iran's grand strategy in Central Asia has changed immensely. Only six years ago they were one of the principal sponsors of the Northern Alliance."
That change is kind of the point. They're now able to supply and assist Sunni groups and expand their sphere. That's the point I'm making.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
