Attitudes towards votech education [ATTN: Boyish-Tigerlilly]

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Attitudes towards votech education [ATTN: Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Post by metavac »

Continuing from where we left off here.

I found some evidence supporting Boyish-Tigerlilly's suspicion that American attitudes regarding trades is on the decline. Take a look at at Figure 15 NCES report
NCES, p. 51 (85 in Reader) wrote:The percentage of graduates concentrating in the vocational curriculum (taking three or more courses in a single occupational program area) decreased from 34 percent in 1982 to 25 percent in 1994, a decline of about 25 percent (figure 15; table 15). The percentage of graduates specializing in the vocational curriculum (taking four or more courses in a single occupational program area with at least two of those courses beyond the introductory level) declined more dramatically, from 13 percent in 1982 to 7 percent in 1994, a decline of about 44 percent.
College prep is up over the same time period, so at the very least this may support the notion that high school students and their parents are seeing even less value in votech education relative to a straight college prep curriculum. There are other possible explanations, but I'd have to dig deeper to verify them--specifically, we'd have to rule out any change in the availability of votech opportunities.

Anyway, that's my update.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Thanks. It is interesting that the interest in the votech degrees is declining, but I don't still know why. I can only speculate. I mean, perhaps the highschool guidance counselors are doing a crappier job of promoting and giving information on them. It might be that they are actively discouraging them too.
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Post by LadyTevar »

It may also be that many of the jobs that VoTech provided training for are no longer available. Manufactoring facilities are being closed all over the US as companies move production or out-source it totally. At the same time, College-Prep leads to College, where the average student can get the college education needed for the technical and service industry jobs that are left.
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Post by Durandal »

And as a direct result, colleges are becoming overrun with students who either never choose a major and just drop out, or students who slog their way through 4 years just to get a major in something like "Women's Studies". The students who drop out end up wasting money (either their own or their parents), and the ones who graduate end up wasting even more money and possibly incurring huge amounts of debt which they don't have a good chance of being able to pay back.

Bottom line, you don't need a college degree to do your typical office job. Employers and schools should stop telling people that you do.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I know some of the liberal-arts people will be angry at me for saying this (as if that's new), but I blame this entirely on the humanities people. For decades, they've been telling people that the whole point of higher education is "self-actualization" or "personal growth" or "becoming a well-rounded person" (as if that's something you acquire in a classroom) rather than developing skills necessary for a career. The result is universities overflowing with people who go there and flitter through their college years with no particular vocational goal in mind, and who honestly think that they're supposed to choose courses based on "what I find most interesting" rather than what they need to get a job. To this day, humanities professors still discourage their students from thinking of their education as a path to a job, and make disparaging remarks about other faculties which are more vocationally oriented.
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Post by Aaron »

This may be a little of topic but whatever happened to the skilled trades? There's always work for an electrician, carpenter, plumber or millwright. And they make a shitload of money once you become a journeyman. And from what I understand there's a shortage of tradesmen right now and for the foeseeable future so there will be plenty of work for you. College isn't for everyone but you can still make a good life for yourself as a tradesmen. I know guys that make 35$ an hour as an electrician, in Canada mind you.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Cpl Kendall wrote:This may be a little of topic but whatever happened to the skilled trades? There's always work for an electrician, carpenter, plumber or millwright. And they make a shitload of money once you become a journeyman. And from what I understand there's a shortage of tradesmen right now and for the foeseeable future so there will be plenty of work for you. College isn't for everyone but you can still make a good life for yourself as a tradesmen. I know guys that make 35$ an hour as an electrician, in Canada mind you.
The stereotype (particularly among humanities students, who never have to work professionally with any skilled tradespeople) is that skilled tradesmen are idiots who should be held in contempt because they never went to university and became well-rounded people. After all, their professors tell them all the time that you need to go to university (and take humanities courses) in order to become "well-rounded", so this is actually a reasonable conclusion given their teachings.
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Post by Durandal »

Cpl Kendall wrote:This may be a little of topic but whatever happened to the skilled trades? There's always work for an electrician, carpenter, plumber or millwright. And they make a shitload of money once you become a journeyman. And from what I understand there's a shortage of tradesmen right now and for the foeseeable future so there will be plenty of work for you. College isn't for everyone but you can still make a good life for yourself as a tradesmen. I know guys that make 35$ an hour as an electrician, in Canada mind you.
Skilled tradesmen make a shitload more money than people who went to college "for their own personal growth". An electrician might not have a higher education, but he can raise and provide for a family, which is a lot more than you can say about a lot of people who do have higher education.
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Post by Durandal »

Darth Wong wrote:The stereotype (particularly among humanities students, who never have to work professionally with any skilled tradespeople) is that skilled tradesmen are idiots who should be held in contempt because they never went to university and became well-rounded people. After all, their professors tell them all the time that you need to go to university (and take humanities courses) in order to become "well-rounded", so this is actually a reasonable conclusion given their teachings.
The sad part is that this isn't just talk from the humanities department. It influences policy in universities. Everyone has to take "general education" curriculums, and the result is that students who are serious about education have to spend more money on more credit hours to take humanities courses and waste time and effort on those courses that could go to courses relevant to their majors.
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Post by Hotfoot »

I would like to point out that having a well rounded liberal arts degree does have a corresponding job: Elementary school teachers.

That said, there is such glut on the market for those jobs it's not even funny. Unless you're male, have a speciality in technology, science, or special education, you're SOL on that job unless you happen to be fantastic with kids and the material. And even then, people might not want to hire you for bullshit reasons, so it's hardly a career worth going into unless you're very dedicated.
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Post by metavac »

Durandal wrote:The sad part is that this isn't just talk from the humanities department. It influences policy in universities. Everyone has to take "general education" curriculums, and the result is that students who are serious about education have to spend more money on more credit hours to take humanities courses and waste time and effort on those courses that could go to courses relevant to their majors.
The argument to the contrary went something like this in my day. Humanities and social sciences are uniquely concerned with studying and applying narratives as a means to communicate ideas. Narratives play an important role in writing and research, professional ethics, and persuasive presentation to colleagues and laymen alike. Since employers find the previously mentioned skill set extremely desirable, universities reasoned that some amount of humanities education would help cultivate a suitable pool of graduates.

I don't know how well that holds up to scrutiny, and a quick look on Google Scholar turns up more blue ribbon 'reports' and opinion pieces than actual science. But there you have it.
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Post by une »

The sad part is that this isn't just talk from the humanities department. It influences policy in universities. Everyone has to take "general education" curriculums, and the result is that students who are serious about education have to spend more money on more credit hours to take humanities courses and waste time and effort on those courses that could go to courses relevant to their majors.
I think that has more to do with the fact that a lot of High Schools in America are very shitty and don't give kids a good basic education, so universities find they need to teach students things that should have been taught in High School.

For example, my cousin is a mechanical engineer, but when he got to University he had to take remedial math classes, according to him the lowest math classes offered in the university, because he wasn't taught math properly in high school. He graduated from Purdue University, whose mechanical engineering program is ranked 8th in the country according to USnews, so he didn't graduate from an easy university, he just wasn't given the right foundation in high school and thus university had to reteach him a bunch of stuff he should have already known.
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Post by Simplicius »

metavac wrote:The argument to the contrary went something like this in my day. Humanities and social sciences are uniquely concerned with studying and applying narratives as a means to communicate ideas. Narratives play an important role in writing and research, professional ethics, and persuasive presentation to colleagues and laymen alike. Since employers find the previously mentioned skill set extremely desirable, universities reasoned that some amount of humanities education would help cultivate a suitable pool of graduates.
There is a problem with this - namely, that the kind of academic writing and communication used by the humanities suffers when used outside the academy, at least as far as my experience goes. The dense style, combined with the occasional need to aggrandize simple ideas, pad papers, or simply refrain from making strong statements, makes academic writing often unpleasant to read, and ill-suited for technical and other 'purposeful' fields.

If humanities departments were willing to recognize the support nature of their subjects - background information useful to a number of non-technical fields - and applied themselves as such, a humanities education at the bachelors' level would be actually useful. But because they insist on some kind of lofty status, they reduce themselves to nigh-irrelevancy, and a student who wants to apply his history education is on his own.
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Post by metavac »

Simplicius wrote:There is a problem with this - namely, that the kind of academic writing and communication used by the humanities suffers when used outside the academy, at least as far as my experience goes. The dense style, combined with the occasional need to aggrandize simple ideas, pad papers, or simply refrain from making strong statements, makes academic writing often unpleasant to read, and ill-suited for technical and other 'purposeful' fields.
We should be careful to draw a distinction here. For one, I can't agree that the humanistic style (if we can actually divine one style) is necessarily dense. As for its usefulness outside of the university...well, the entire journalism industry stands as a counter-example. Humanities also includes history, fiction writing and study, etc.; all these have their areas for popular consumption (biographies, novels, pop science books).

Now I work in application development. I don't publish in journals and my audience isn't limited to my colleagues (although I'd argue that using narratives there also helps scientific readers more rapidly penetrate an article). I write documentation and contribute to user guides, and our readers range anywhere from execs to your run of the mill data entry types. I have to consider how the narrative organizing literature we produce will play with the guy sitting at his desk with a bunch of risk models and our app.
If humanities departments were willing to recognize the support nature of their subjects - background information useful to a number of non-technical fields - and applied themselves as such, a humanities education at the bachelors' level would be actually useful. But because they insist on some kind of lofty status, they reduce themselves to nigh-irrelevancy, and a student who wants to apply his history education is on his own.
I'll admit it's entirely plausible that a humanities education doesn't translate into job opportunities as easily as a scientific/technical one, and from there it's tempting to reason that scientific/technical fields are inherently more purposeful. But once again, we can't deny that there are large sectors of industry that rely on writers to express not only technical, but non-technical ideas to non-technical people. Journalism, literature, marketing and advertising, these are all huge billion dollar enterprises that obviously feed some demand. You might even lump all the humanities together as a foundational component of public intelligence.

To borrow a humanities cliche, I'll close with a quote:
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Post by brianeyci »

metavac wrote:You might even lump all the humanities together as a foundational component of public intelligence.
Humanities may or may not be the foundation of human intelligence. Writing and reading is obviously a core skil. Nobody is disputing that. The only question is whether such should be taught at a post-secondary level, and the answer is no, or at least not as many. Tertiary education should not be a band-aid for bad high schools.

Look at the occupations of English graduates. The second most is Food and Beverage. Going to university for four years to end up flipping burgers is wrong.

As for blaming humanities students, I would reserve most of the vitrol for high schools. People who go to university at sixteen and seventeen are children who don't know any better. They just do what they're told, so no big surprise they go to university because they think many things, among them people who don't go to university are stupid/people who don't go to university can't make a good living/people who don't go to university are failures. By the time you realize, sometime around second or third year, too late, you have to finish.
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Post by metavac »

brianeyci wrote:Humanities may or may not be the foundation of human intelligence.
By 'intelligence,' I mean the product of information gathering.
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Post by Stark »

What's interesting about this is that so many tradesmen (ie, skilled professionals who usually run their own business) are such retarded bogans. The guys from my graduating year who went into trades are doing *very* well for themselves, but they seem to deliberately make themselves MORE bogan-y, MORE ignorant, like they're trying to identify as closely as possible with the ass-end of humanity. They're not always stupid people, but they seem to lean more towards low-end culture than anything else, which is strange to me. They seem to resist the idea that they're skilled professionals, as though that would be bad in some way.
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Post by metavac »

Hit submit before I even finished.
brianeyci wrote:Humanities may or may not be the foundation of human intelligence.
By intelligence, I mean the product of information gathering (as in Central Intelligence Agency).
Writing and reading is obviously a core skil. Nobody is disputing that. The only question is whether such should be taught at a post-secondary level, and the answer is no, or at least not as many. Tertiary education should not be a band-aid for bad high schools.
Writing and reading are core skills, but it's not as if you can either read and write or you can't. There are various levels of proficiency, as well as different compartments relevant to different professions and tasks. Technical writing, for example, is necessarily a post-secondary school skill because it concerns an area of post-secondary school expertise in which the narratives, syntax and semantics are fairly codified. Journalism and marketing bring their own standards into play as well. Secondary school should and does introduce students to the basic principles of critical reading and expository writing, but it does not provide the complete set of analytical tools used in the work world.

Look at the occupations of English graduates. The second most is Food and Beverage. Going to university for four years to end up flipping burgers is wrong.[/quote]

I don't know what to make of this survey. For one, three times as many English majors reported employment in the education space. Two, there are large percentages in all categories not reporting anything at all. Three, this is for BA grads. Might these kids be preparing for their Masters? After all, food service isn't registering in the Masters numbers. Four, seems English majors are doing about as well as Math majors when it comes to unemployment.

I would agree that spending four years in college to work as a waitress is wrong, but that reaches beneath the numbers and makes assumptions about what that 9 percent is doing. And I can't find any numbers I can compare to science/technical graduations. This survey is amusing, but I don't think it's particularly illuminating.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hotfoot wrote:I would like to point out that having a well rounded liberal arts degree does have a corresponding job: Elementary school teachers.
A humanities degree is a specialization, and is therefore not any more "well-rounded" than a math degree. If it was truly "well-rounded", it would include extensive training in not just liberal arts, but also mathematics, science, engineering, etc. It is the profound conceit and arrogance of the humanities people that they think they somehow produce "well-rounded" people.

Or do you think that educators somehow don't need to know math, science, engineering, etc? Why do you think our education system is so shitty at teaching these things? It's loaded with self-proclaimed "well-rounded" humanities majors who are not in fact well-rounded at all.

As for metavac's bullshit about humanities being somehow a critical component of all learning, that's bullshit too. That's just basic English language, not university-level humanities education.
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Post by Spin Echo »

Cpl Kendall wrote:College isn't for everyone but you can still make a good life for yourself as a tradesmen. I know guys that make 35$ an hour as an electrician, in Canada mind you.
When I lived in Pennsylvania, the guy who owned the swankest house in a pretty well off neighborhood was the electrician. Also, if you start learning a trade in high school, a tradesman can start raking in good money before his counterparts at university are even finished their degree.

I think part of the loss of votech training in high schools may stem from funding issues; it costs more to buy the equipment to teach auto mechanics than it does to buy some more history books.

For example, my partner explained to me that going to high school didn't become a right in Norway until the mid-90's. If you're grades were good enough, you could get into a spot but if they weren't, tough luck. When they decided that all children had a right to attend high school, that meant that they needed to build more high schools. There are three types of high schools in Norway, votech, college prep, and some sort of business prep. Insteading building more of all three, they just built more college prep schools because those were cheapest.

And it's not that the state determined that people overwhelming wanted more college prep schools. Norway must have the world's smartest hairdressers because a student needs top marks to get into a hairdressing program as there are so many more applicants than spots available.
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Post by metavac »

Stark wrote:What's interesting about this is that so many tradesmen (ie, skilled professionals who usually run their own business) are such retarded bogans. The guys from my graduating year who went into trades are doing *very* well for themselves, but they seem to deliberately make themselves MORE bogan-y, MORE ignorant, like they're trying to identify as closely as possible with the ass-end of humanity. They're not always stupid people, but they seem to lean more towards low-end culture than anything else, which is strange to me. They seem to resist the idea that they're skilled professionals, as though that would be bad in some way.
I think that speaks more to interests than ignorance. I can tell you how a cylinder head impacts volumetric efficiency and even design a toy model of one, but I can't tell you who's the best manufacturer out there and I probably couldn't machine one to save my life. On a similar note, I know a lot of people who can dredge up social science and psychology papers and statistics to make a point, but get lost in the substance of the articles they present. I personally consider such people enthusiastic dilettantes rather than ignoramuses. Full disclosure: I'm one of them, I bet you are too. ;)
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Post by metavac »

Darth Wong wrote:As for metavac's bullshit about humanities being somehow a critical component of all learning, that's bullshit too. That's just basic English language, not university-level humanities education.
I didn't say it's a critical component, I said I don't know. I haven't done the due diligence necessary to feel one way or the other. I do agree with you that humanities is specialization, especially in areas of communications.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:I would like to point out that having a well rounded liberal arts degree does have a corresponding job: Elementary school teachers.
A humanities degree is a specialization, and is therefore not any more "well-rounded" than a math degree. If it was truly "well-rounded", it would include extensive training in not just liberal arts, but also mathematics, science, engineering, etc. It is the profound conceit and arrogance of the humanities people that they think they somehow produce "well-rounded" people.

Or do you think that educators somehow don't need to know math, science, engineering, etc? Why do you think our education system is so shitty at teaching these things? It's loaded with self-proclaimed "well-rounded" humanities majors who are not in fact well-rounded at all.

As for metavac's bullshit about humanities being somehow a critical component of all learning, that's bullshit too. That's just basic English language, not university-level humanities education.
I heard a speaker once argue that engineering had become the new liberal arts, in the sense that an engineer must by necessity be competent in math, science, business, history and communication (to at least some nonzero degree). I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint.
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Post by Durandal »

Charles Bennett wrote:Theoretical computer scientists, like their counterparts in physics, suffer and benefit from a high level of intellectual machismo. They believe that they have some of the biggest brains around, which they need to think about some of the hardest problems. Like mathematicians, they prove theorems and doubt the seriousness of those who don't." (2)
My theory of computation professor once said something to this effect. "You're being trained as engineers, so you're trained to be precise and expect precision. And when you talk with people in other majors who aren't trained like that, you'll get frustrated with them. They'll think you're being arrogant, and you'll think they're being stupid."
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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:A humanities degree is a specialization, and is therefore not any more "well-rounded" than a math degree. If it was truly "well-rounded", it would include extensive training in not just liberal arts, but also mathematics, science, engineering, etc. It is the profound conceit and arrogance of the humanities people that they think they somehow produce "well-rounded" people.
"Liberal Arts" is hardly a focused degree in a classical sense, because it just means you took a lot of various humanities courses. I'm not going to defend the "well-rounded" aspect, because that's silly.
Or do you think that educators somehow don't need to know math, science, engineering, etc? Why do you think our education system is so shitty at teaching these things? It's loaded with self-proclaimed "well-rounded" humanities majors who are not in fact well-rounded at all.
At the elementary level, frankly, no, they don't, at least not at a collegiate level. Reading, writing, and basic maths are taught year round, science and social studies only get taught for half a year respectively. Reading and writing tend to get more focus than maths, as far as total amount of time spent per day on the subjects, and really, we're talking about very basic maths for elementary school teachers (K-5), which does not require more than cursory knowledge of the subject. I'm not defending the claim that Liberal Arts degrees are creating well-rounded people, just that there is one job focus that requires a liberal arts degree, where having cursory knowledge of subjects other than language arts is all that's needed, and the reason is that there's a major focus on language arts, because it is the building block of the rest of a child's education. Now, I'm not saying we should ignore science and math, as well as working in practical skills such as crafts/shop and foreign languages, I'm just saying what is currently looked for in the teachers for schools.

Don't get me wrong, the science knowledge of many elementary level educators is abysmal (how many people had teachers tell them the moon was only visible at night?). That's why speciality science teachers are becoming in demand for elementary schools.
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