Why are music and fine arts taught in university?

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Knife
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Post by Knife »

brianeyci wrote: Because talent without formal training is talent wasted. High school should identify those with talent, and shift them into higher learning. Again, the purpose of university in my view should be to cultivate those with talent, and like it or not (since you don't seem to like associating mathematical aptitude with artistic aptitude), it takes talent to be an artist, more than nailing boards or making a cake.

Don't worry. Nobody confuses a B. Music with a B.Sc. or a B.A. or a B.Eng., so I don't see your problem. Do you believe that music somehow "dilutes" higher education? Then I ask you what is the purpose of higher education? A status symbol for those good at math? Please.
I'm sorry, whats my position again? So far all I've done is refute the absurd notion that art is some how above and beyond other skills. Shinova seems bent of making art/music out to be so elite that I'd question why a dedicated program in most if not all universities would be necessary.

I do think that art and music suffer from an appeal to tradition in their importance, as well as a shit load of elitist attitude in their importance. They are skills. To place them above other skills with some sort of sad nastolgia to a by gone past is pretty fucking pathetic.

So far, in this thread, you've got people comparing the high end skill of art to a basic familurization of say carpentry, in nailing two boards together. What a fucking farce.
Art can be a different faculty in the university, and often is. In fact, the university can handle the admissions of arts students and cut down on costs.

You want to rip art and music out of university and hope that resources get diverted into engineering or science? It won't work that way. Art donors and more importantly the students themselves will just take their money elsewhere, so your idea that art is "wasting" resources better put somewhere else is wrong.
My tangent on that issue was predicated on Shinova's odd ball reasoning that highly talented top of the line and cream of the crop artists/musicians needed the university level classes to excelle in their fields. That this distinction some how seperates the 'normal' skills and Art into two defined groups and justified it in the original topic.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Shinova »

Knife wrote:
Not quite true. You're referring to modern art, much of which is just sheer trash and BS. I have a lot of disrespect for them and their community of circle-jerkers.

However, I highly doubt any of these people except a very small number will make it into the history books. Jackson Pollack and Andy Warhol are probably the only ones with real artistic merit, and even then I personally don't see what's so amazing about them, especially the former.

Van Gogh or Picasso were clearly something else though.
So now only those whos art you like are elite enough to go into university study? If they have so much talent naturally, why the need for university classes or degrees?
I never said anything about university study. And Van Gogh and Picasso aren't great artists because I alone like them.
Sure we are if we're discussing if they should be part of a degree program. The resources and straight up money for those classes could be channeled somewhere else if in your view, only a small amount of highly talented people should take them, or in my view, they're no more or less special than other skills that people don't consider elite like art.
It's up to the individual schools, but fine art and music are more demanding than many typical skills and aren't as necessary to society. Hence I wouldn't mind if less money was funded to smaller numbers of schools dedicated to art and music whilst the majority of funding goes to more important disciplines.
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Post by brianeyci »

Knife wrote:To place them above other skills with some sort of sad nastolgia to a by gone past is pretty fucking pathetic.
Then will you accept that the numbers of people who are able to eke out a decent living being artists or musicians is far less than other trades or skills? In fact, so small as to make them an elite?

I'm sorry you don't accept this. Musicians are an elite, just like athletes are an elite or mathematicians are an elite. Maybe you should try and make a living as a musician or artist or become a conservatory curator (which would require theoretical university knowledge.)

As for removing them from universities entirely, at least where I am, technical and vocational colleges require far less in the way of grades, in the way of a C to gain admission. Universities need a B or more realistically an A. So if you don't want to lower the requirements, leave fine arts and music alone. Putting them in non-accredited institutions would lower the requirements for entry. If you say "no, not true" well look at it this way: at least if fine arts or music is in university, they can demand other requirements like science and so on, while in technical colleges geared towards the bottom line they would take anybody.
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Post by Knife »

Shinova wrote: It's up to the individual schools, but fine art and music are more demanding than many typical skills and aren't as necessary to society. Hence I wouldn't mind if less money was funded to smaller numbers of schools dedicated to art and music whilst the majority of funding goes to more important disciplines.
And we've come full circle. The OT asked why these Skills should be part of a program. You've and others, have contended that they are above other skills if not really a skill in and of themselves.

Why are they more demanding or more elite as skills or why are they so elite that they don't count as skills? I've seen some silly analogies put up, but nobody has answered this question.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Knife »

brianeyci wrote: Then will you accept that the numbers of people who are able to eke out a decent living being artists or musicians is far less than other trades or skills? In fact, so small as to make them an elite?

I'm sorry you don't accept this. Musicians are an elite, just like athletes are an elite or mathematicians are an elite. Maybe you should try and make a living as a musician or artist or become a conservatory curator (which would require theoretical university knowledge.)
.
I feel like I'm going in circles here. They're elite because as elite nobody understands their true importance? Their elite because they do it even though there isn't really much money in it?

Why are these skills elite above and beyond other skills?
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by brianeyci »

Then what do you call an elite Knife. Do you call a mathematician elite, a chartered accountant elite, an engineer elite. I call all of those professions elite, mainly because not many people can do it and it requires years of dedication and training. Do you know how much training goes into a musical instrument, or art?

Just what do you call an elite Knife?
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Post by Knife »

brianeyci wrote:Then what do you call an elite Knife. Do you call a mathematician elite, a chartered accountant elite, an engineer elite. I call all of those professions elite, mainly because not many people can do it and it requires years of dedication and training. Do you know how much training goes into a musical instrument, or art?

Just what do you call an elite Knife?
Don't play bullshit games Brian. Answer the question. What makes art/music an elite skill. What the fuck is an elite skill in the fist place. I'm not the one arguing it is, others including you are. What makes music/art so elite above and beyond any other skill.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Gaidin »

brianeyci wrote:
Then will you accept that the numbers of people who are able to eke out a decent living being artists or musicians is far less than other trades or skills? In fact, so small as to make them an elite?

I'm sorry you don't accept this. Musicians are an elite, just like athletes are an elite or mathematicians are an elite. Maybe you should try and make a living as a musician or artist or become a conservatory curator (which would require theoretical university knowledge.)
When you say 'eke out a decent living being artists or musicians', do you mean "Eagles and Andy Warhol" decent living....or do you mean "video game composer and set artist" decent living....because there's not a lot of the former...but plenty of the latter.
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Post by Howedar »

brianeyci wrote:
Knife wrote:To place them above other skills with some sort of sad nastolgia to a by gone past is pretty fucking pathetic.
Then will you accept that the numbers of people who are able to eke out a decent living being artists or musicians is far less than other trades or skills? In fact, so small as to make them an elite?

I'm sorry you don't accept this. Musicians are an elite, just like athletes are an elite or mathematicians are an elite. Maybe you should try and make a living as a musician or artist or become a conservatory curator (which would require theoretical university knowledge.)
How does this demonstrate that only a few people can become competent? How does it not, instead, simply demonstrate that the supply is much greater than the demand?
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Post by brianeyci »

Knife wrote:Don't play bullshit games Brian. Answer the question. What makes art/music an elite skill. What the fuck is an elite skill in the fist place. I'm not the one arguing it is, others including you are. What makes music/art so elite above and beyond any other skill.
You're a grade A ass Knife. So your rebuttal is there is no such thing as an elite?

Ideally university education should by its very definition be elite. As already mentioned, music and fine arts at university does not just teach a skill, but teaches theoretical concepts as well. So worthwhile training for four years, in any discipline should make a person an elite, no matter what their discipline is. The rigor should still be there of course, which it isn't always, but as far as I can see you aren't making any claim that fine arts or music isn't rigorous enough. The fact that humanities is bloated doesn't change that higher education should be considered elite. The last I checked music and fine arts are not bloated fields. I find it disturbing that you can't accept that there are people who can do something that you cannot. There is nothing wrong with elitism if it's not carried too far. An electrician has an elite version: an electrical engineer. A plumber has an elite version: a civil engineer. And so on. Musicians have their elite versions as well.
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Post by Knife »

brianeyci wrote: You're a grade A ass Knife. So your rebuttal is there is no such thing as an elite?
And you're a total douche. But you still haven't answered the fucking question, just another tangent. I don't give one flying fuck if you put all college classes in the 'elite' category.

I want to know why painting and piano playing should measure equal and/or above other fucking skills taught at the college (elite, if you will and apperently your argument) level.
snip about all college is elite since it's a red herring
I find it disturbing that you can't accept that there are people who can do something that you cannot. There is nothing wrong with elitism if it's not carried too far. An electrician has an elite version: an electrical engineer. A plumber has an elite version: a civil engineer. And so on. Musicians have their elite versions as well.
I find it distrubing you think this is what I'm asking or even worse, that I've said this. In fact I've implied your very notion in refuting some bullshit analogies posted in this thread.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by brianeyci »

Then you haven't paid attention Knife. Did you read the second post in this thread? I was the first one to define what I thought as an elite education: an education with an extremely selective admissions process and low numbers of graduating class, which as far as I know fine arts and music is. I don't put all university classes in the elite category. Right now university in general is not elite because too many are admitted. I think university should be elite, and think numbers should be drastically cut down. In fact, humanities can do better by following the fine arts/music model to become an elite education: that is require more than just grades, and instead an interview, portfolio, and references.

Shinova is not me. In particular, I did not claim that a musician is more important than an engineer or measured "equal" or "above." So blow me. There can be different kinds of elite, or does that concept escape you. Maybe put this in words you can understand. There's different ranks of officer in the military, but an officer is still elite compared to an enlisted man.
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Post by wolveraptor »

while in technical colleges geared towards the bottom line they would take anybody.
I dispute that notion. What is a conservatory but a music-geared vocational college? Lord knows there are certainly a good number of high-quality conservatories out there that don't take any old schmuck. Ideally, those truly talented in music and art would go there, rather than to a traditional university.
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Post by Knife »

brianeyci wrote:Then you haven't paid attention Knife. Did you read the second post in this thread? I was the first one to define what I thought as an elite education: an education with an extremely selective admissions process and low numbers of graduating class, which as far as I know fine arts and music is. I don't put all university classes in the elite category. Right now university in general is not elite because too many are admitted. I think university should be elite, and think numbers should be drastically cut down. In fact, humanities can do better by following the fine arts/music model to become an elite education: that is require more than just grades, and instead an interview, portfolio, and references.
Pfft. Then why the fuck are you arguing with me for. Besides which you still haven't answered why ART or MUSIC is equal or ABOVE other skills. That has been my question since the begining of this thread. If you don't want to answer it, don't respond to my posts.

However, I'd like to take you up on your notion that college shouldn't be for everyone. You of course think you should qualify for that 'elite' education though, I would assume.
Shinova is not me. In particular, I did not claim that a musician is more important than an engineer or measured "equal" or "above." So blow me. There can be different kinds of elite, or does that concept escape you. Maybe put this in words you can understand. There's different ranks of officer in the military, but an officer is still elite compared to an enlisted man.
Are you channeling Cobert or something? Or are you just pissed about this thread and the other thread in this forum? You've responded to my posts that asked a question and you've done everything but fucking answer the question. Elite education my ass.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

What is a good per centage, you think, of the population to go to university?

I will dredge up the book I found this statistic in tomorrow, since I left it in the car, but it states that roughly 40-45% of the US population 25 and older have a degree that ranges from Bachelors to doctorate. They broke it down into several categories.

Bachelors
Masters
Doctorate
Professional Degree (technical)

Of those people 25 and above, it was about 30% (give or take a few) that had a Bachelors degree for the year 2000. It probably has fluctuated since. Masters and Doctorates were comparatively smaller.
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Post by Spice Runner »

metavac wrote:I can't be this far out of the loop with everybody else. First car keys, then English lit and now this? Now mind you, I didn't take any music courses, but if you did your concentration in it you started with a music appreciation course that required you to critically and speculatively exam pieces (this was to meet your undergrad writing requirement). Next came straight up musical history, which was more of the same. Next came two semesters of harmony and counterpoint, where you'd learn how to analytically deconstruct music and place it within its historical and aesthetic context. From what I remember, you really had to love music to put up with all the work they shoveled at you.
I agree that's all fine and dandy for music majors. By the way was taking an art or music appreciation course not required at your college?
The basic appreciation course I had to take was a breeze and even somewhat enjoyable but I'd rather they keep such a courses as elective options rather than requirements.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

My university does have some cultural appreciation, but there's no specific requirement for music or art 101 type appreciation classes. You had the option of skipping it for a related upper level class.
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Post by brianeyci »

Knife wrote:Pfft. Then why the fuck are you arguing with me for. Besides which you still haven't answered why ART or MUSIC is equal or ABOVE other skills. That has been my question since the begining of this thread. If you don't want to answer it, don't respond to my posts.
Nobody, Shinova, aerius, has claimed that art or music is equal or above other skills, which if you speak English means as important or more important. They have claimed that it is far too difficult to learn with little innate talent. That you can't see the difference between innate talent and importance is not my problem.
However, I'd like to take you up on your notion that college shouldn't be for everyone. You of course think you should qualify for that 'elite' education though, I would assume.
No. I think a very small percentage of very intelligent people should go to university. College in Canada means technical college and requires far less in the way of grades.

Let me ask you something personal then. Can you draw? Can you do art? Do you play a musical instrument? Is that the source of your vitrol towards music and fine arts in university?
Are you channeling Cobert or something? Or are you just pissed about this thread and the other thread in this forum? You've responded to my posts that asked a question and you've done everything but fucking answer the question. Elite education my ass.
Your questions are rather stupid. You ask why it is hard to learn how to be an artist. People have answered with their personal experience, and comparison to athletes in innate talent. You don't accept that answer, and instead choose to keep pretending nobody's answered. If kheegster a genius compared to you (I assume you're not studying astrophysics on scholarship) says he can't draw a circle and can never become an artist, who are you to question him?
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Post by Simplicius »

Darth Wong wrote:As a side-issue to the current debate over humanities courses in university, it occurs to me that music and fine arts should not be taught as humanities courses. First and foremost, neither of them are really studies of any aspect of the human condition; they are both skills.

Second, they are directly vocational skills, once again unusual for humanities courses which are meant to "prepare you for life" but not actually give you directly marketable skills.

So, with these conditions in mind, why aren't music and fine arts taught as a form of skilled labour rather than university humanities courses?
I'm not going to try to pick up the Knife-brianeyci argument, but I will try to make a separate case for the fine arts' place in the university.

To the first point, the university that includes the fine arts in its humanities department probably has an underdeveloped fine arts program, one which receives little attention compared to other departments. My former school, Skidmore, is only a college, but has substantial art, theater and music departments. The arts departments are considered separate from the humanities and social sciences, with their own section of campus, dedicated facilities, and so on. To take another example, the University of Maine system recently founded a school of music around an entire campus. A simple Google search will turn up pages of other university music schools, and a like amount of dedicated Schools of Art and Colleges of Fine Art in unis around the US. It would appear to be the case that a university which takes its arts seriously will not merely lump them in with the humanities.

To the second point, it might be unusual for humanities courses to provide directly marketable skills, but the same cannot be said for any and all university courses. Since many, if not most universities separate their arts and their humanities, this point would seem to be moot.

It would seem, then, that the fine arts are taught as a form of skilled labor, at least in the same fashion that engineering is taught as a form of skilled labor - a student attends university, becomes heavily involved in an arts program, and graduates after four years with the option of pursuing further training in the arts or beginning a career in same.

Why is the university an acceptable place to learn the 'skilled labor' of the fine arts? I would suggest that it is the particular opportunities afforded by university education. To take an example, to succeed in music requires a deep understanding of the principles involved, the music theory and other 'brain work' as well as the countless hours of physical training in the form of practice, rehearsal, and performance. The music student must have the opportunity to participate in all different styles of performance - solo work, small ensemble, and orchestra/full chorus/concert band. The student must have experience with the other aspects of music as well, including applying the theoretical background to composition, and conducting. The idea, I suppose, is that music students should be given the opportunity to develop the intimacy with the entirety of the subject that will allow them to become great composers, conductors, or performers, since natural-born virtuosos are few and far between. I would bet that the same is true for the other arts - that making a career in that art requires a solid background in every aspect of the art, because there isn't much of a division of labor in art. Consequently, art students have to work their asses off if they expect to get anywhere.

Universities provide an environment suitable for such an education. The programs are four years, while most US vocational programs, which are run through community colleges, are only two. Universities have the advantage of much more funding than community colleges. The University of Maine System appropriates almost four times as much as the Maine Community College System - roughly $200 million vs. roughly $50 million. The size, money, and cultural status wielded by universities are apt to attract arts faculty, as is the typical requirement that faculty members produce original work in their fields as well as just teach. Universities also have an edge in attracting high-profile guest artists and sponsoring exhibitions, performances, and concert series which contribute to the reputation and quality of an arts department. The progression from undergrad to graduate work - which does not involve community colleges - allows a student to train for eleven years in his art if he so chooses. And, finally - as a matter of personal opinion - the rather sheltered and sequestered environment available in the university setting allows someone who is striving to master an art the opportunity to do so over the course of his full 4-11 years, rather than having to enter and leave an environment of dedication to the subject with the commute to community college and back.

Perhaps I have not seen nearly enough, but as far as I can tell, community colleges - the primary home of vocational education in the US - are simply too small and too brief to suit the kind of hard work that success in the arts requires. I would no more relegate the fine arts to a vo-tech program than I would the natural sciences.
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Re: Why are music and fine arts taught in university?

Post by Seggybop »

Darth Wong wrote:As a side-issue to the current debate over humanities courses in university, it occurs to me that music and fine arts should not be taught as humanities courses. First and foremost, neither of them are really studies of any aspect of the human condition; they are both skills.

Second, they are directly vocational skills, once again unusual for humanities courses which are meant to "prepare you for life" but not actually give you directly marketable skills.

So, with these conditions in mind, why aren't music and fine arts taught as a form of skilled labour rather than university humanities courses?
This is rather confusing to me. I attend Syracuse University, which is composed of many individual colleges dedicated to different areas. There is a college of engineering and computer science, a college of arts and sciences (what they call liberal arts), a school of management, and more than a few others.

I attend the college of visual and performing arts, which is entirely separate from the liberal arts or general humanities school. Visual and performing arts is further subdivided internally into schools of music, art and design. I am an industrial design student, and the industrial design department has its own specific faculty and facilities.
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Post by Knife »

Original post wrote:So, with these conditions in mind, why aren't music and fine arts taught as a form of skilled labour rather than university humanities courses?
Post I had a problem with wrote:Fine arts and music are way beyond simply skilled labour. Anyone can learn some skilled labour job, but not everyone can become a good artist or musician.
With all your blabbering, and all the lame ass analogies (granted not yours but you've defended them) I have yet to see any fucking thing that remotely shows how those skills are BEYOND other skilled labor.
He who said I didn't read the thread wrote:Nobody, Shinova, aerius, has claimed that art or music is equal or above other skills,
:lol:
No. I think a very small percentage of very intelligent people should go to university. College in Canada means technical college and requires far less in the way of grades.
:roll: Keep your symantics whoring to your self. You're dodging again, btw. Do you feel you are one of the intellegent people you feel should go to university? I wait with baited breath for your answer. :roll:
Let me ask you something personal then. Can you draw? Can you do art? Do you play a musical instrument? Is that the source of your vitrol towards music and fine arts in university?
Meh, I dabble at drawing, I dabble at writting. I have no vitrol for fine arts nor have I said that I think they should go away. My contention of any sort in that direction was in response to something goofy some one said. I do get irritated at self proclaimed superiority, based on something trivial, which you've seemed to latch on to here.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by brianeyci »

Knife wrote:With all your blabbering, and all the lame ass analogies (granted not yours but you've defended them) I have yet to see any fucking thing that remotely shows how those skills are BEYOND other skilled labor.
You're pretty fucking stupid. You took Shinova's words out of context. Beyond doesn't necessarily means Shinova attaches importance to it beyond engineering, mathematics or science. It's too bad you have a reading comprehension problem, since nobody seems to have interpreted his words the way you have.
:roll: Keep your symantics whoring to your self. You're dodging again, btw. Do you feel you are one of the intellegent people you feel should go to university? I wait with baited breath for your answer. :roll:
You are pretty fucking dumb. If the education system was repaired so that vital skills and so on were restored to high school, and moreover if the high school diploma was worth the paper it was written on, people of average intelligence such as me would not be forced to go to university to get a career since high school would be enough. But it is not. Do you have a point to this, or are you simply trying to find some inconsistency in my logic? In this matter there is not, I assure you. I've thought long and hard about education, and had my ass raped by several people on this board and my opinions changed over the years. Now in particular I see the correct path to education is treating it as Mike would want to treat it, as elite beyond the high school level. If it is not elite, it should be. If you find this snobbish or arrogant, or worse yet hypocritical then you are missing the entire point.
My contention of any sort in that direction was in response to something goofy some one said. I do get irritated at self proclaimed superiority, based on something trivial, which you've seemed to latch on to here.
So you took one sentence of Shinova's, with a single word, beyond, clearly meaning beyond in ability (he even says so the next fucking sentence), to mean beyond in importance? Give me a break.
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Spin Echo
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Post by Spin Echo »

Knife wrote:
Shinova wrote: It's up to the individual schools, but fine art and music are more demanding than many typical skills and aren't as necessary to society. Hence I wouldn't mind if less money was funded to smaller numbers of schools dedicated to art and music whilst the majority of funding goes to more important disciplines.
And we've come full circle. The OT asked why these Skills should be part of a program. You've and others, have contended that they are above other skills if not really a skill in and of themselves.

Why are they more demanding or more elite as skills or why are they so elite that they don't count as skills? I've seen some silly analogies put up, but nobody has answered this question.
Could you clarify something for me Knife? You keep refering to being able to paint a picture or play an instrument as a skill. Isn't being able to take a derivative or take a spectrum of a material also a skill?

Anyone else getting the feeling this thread is mostly an exercise in sematics?
Doom dOom doOM DOom doomity DooM doom Dooooom Doom DOOM!
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Ar-Adunakhor
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Post by Ar-Adunakhor »

brianeyci wrote:
Knife wrote:With all your blabbering, and all the lame ass analogies (granted not yours but you've defended them) I have yet to see any fucking thing that remotely shows how those skills are BEYOND other skilled labor.
You're pretty fucking stupid. You took Shinova's words out of context. Beyond doesn't necessarily means Shinova attaches importance to it beyond engineering, mathematics or science. It's too bad you have a reading comprehension problem, since nobody seems to have interpreted his words the way you have.
While I don't want to spoil the lovely snit you are having with Knife, I would like to point out that I interpreted it exactly the same way. I don't understand how saying "This is beyond all the rest." is the same as "I don't attach importance to it beyond the rest." I don't really want to jump in beyond that, but I would daresay several others look at it the same way, making your "Nobody else thinks that!" wrong.
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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

I'm hearing a lot of talk about innate talent, fine motor control, hand-eye coordination, etc. This sounds like physical skill. So somebody should explain to me once more why music and fine arts is not skilled labour.
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