Imperial Guard,Morality on a new level

[Ezekyle Abaddon]

It just occured to my on a browse of my Eisenhorn trilogy that when Eisenhorn has a need to confess his heresies to someone who would listen, Tobias Maxillia (a rogue trader that he has come to trust) relates a story of a general who was facing a battle that even his advisors said he could not win, fielded an army that numbered around 4 million, of which only a fraction survived and when asked what he thought, he said that it was his finest hour. This brings me to question that eveb though he treated his men well with this much blood does orders give him free reign on what he does or would this sheer quantity of deaths leave a stain on his hands.

Your choice.

[Rye]

What? Are you asking if in general it's okay or not to kill loads of your own men needlessly? If so, no, it's not good, the situation has to warrant large losses of life.

[Darwin]

Well, did he win? Death in the Emperor's service is the greatest honor for an Imperial citizen, and lives spent in even the smallest of victories are spent well.

[Ezekyle Abaddon]

You sound exactly like a good commissar, just before he puts a bolt through your head,and yes he did.

[2000AD]

Didn't Tobias mention that the guy also had nightmares about what he had to do or something? Wasn't the whole point of bringing him up to convince Eisenhorn that 'the ends justify the means', thus he was within his rights to be a 'radical'?

The general didn't deploy 4 million troops just for kicks, he did it because it was (in his opinion) what needed to be done to win the battle. Even though in the past he had taken measures to ensure the survival of his troops, when the time came he unhesitatingly deployed the troops, knowing the cost would be heavy, because it what was needed to be done in his opinion.

[Enforcer Talen]

The big question is, did he win? IE, was the loss of 4 million trained troops balanced by the benefit gained to the Imperium?

Hell, even if he lost, the 2nd answer still might mean an overall sucess.

[Jaevric]

Honestly, as generally screwed-up as the Warhammer 40K universe is, and as horrible as some of the officers are, this particular example isn't a problem.

In absolute terms, 4 million men for the Imperial Guard is a drop in the bucket. Harsh, but that's the way it is, and if the battle was a necessary one and not just some inbred political cretin deciding it would be fun to throw some IG into the Eye of Terror, then the results may very easily have been well-worth the sacrifice.

We don't know why this particular battle was fought--we just know that there was one, and the Imperium won. We also know that the General in question was one with a reputation for caring about his men (unusual in the IG) and apparently his men were fairly loyal to him or they wouldn't've fought on to win a battle with those kinds of casualties.

This implies that both the General and the troops thought the battle was a worthwhile endeavour. Given a lack of other information, I'd have to think personally that in this particular case the results may well have justified the losses to the Imperial Guard.

Keep in mind that, commissars or no commissars, an army does not take 90% or higher casualties unless the troops believe in what they are doing. As Commissar Cain points out, a significant number of hardass commissars tend to get killed in the line of duty even if they happen to be several miles away from the actual fighting. I can't imagine a commissar being able to force men to keep fighting while taking the kind of casualties talked in this example.

[Patrick Degan]

Well, did he win? Death in the Emperor's service is the greatest honor for an Imperial citizen, and lives spent in even the smallest of victories are spent well.

Makes a nice slogan but poor generalship.

[Darwin]

Well, did he win? Death in the Emperor's service is the greatest honor for an Imperial citizen, and lives spent in even the smallest of victories are spent well.

Makes a nice slogan but poor generalship.

Actually it's about true, with the Imperium's nearly limitless supply of manpower. They can afford these kind of tactics.

[Darth Raptor]

It's impossible to pass a moral judgment on the general's actions without knowing why the battle was fought in the first place. What boon was attained in this victory, if any? What larger disaster was averted? These are the criteria by which we'd have to judge this general. Just the fact that he successfully took the field is irrelevant, especially when one considers just how thoroughly abhorrent the IoM itself is.

[Connor MacLeod]

It just occured to my on a browse of my Eisenhorn trilogy that when Eisenhorn has a need to confess his heresies to someone who would listen, Tobias Maxillia (a rogue trader that he has come to trust) relates a story of a general who was facing a battle that even his advisors said he could not win, fielded an army that numbered around 4 million, of which only a fraction survived and when asked what he thought, he said that it was his finest hour. This brings me to question that eveb though he treated his men well with this much blood does orders give him free reign on what he does or would this sheer quantity of deaths leave a stain on his hands.

Your choice.

As noted, while the Imperium is not or probably will not ever be known for its concern for the welfare of the individual or placing a very high value on individual human life (humanity in general on the other hand...) it has to be noted that more often than not if they DO make such sacrifices they have to have a very good reason (troops are plentiful and can be replaced, but not instantly.), you don't really know why that many troops were sacrificed. It could have been some sort of callous or self absorbed/self interested General (like Dravere or that idiot in fifteen hours, or it may be that the sacrifice prevented the death/destruction/conquest/corruption of an entire planet (or Sector.)

[Ezekyle Abaddon]

I wish to thank everybody who took the time to answer this post and hopefully many more returns.

[GuppyShark]

This brings me to question that eveb though he treated his men well with this much blood does orders give him free reign on what he does or would this sheer quantity of deaths leave a stain on his hands.

Your choice.

Oh, it definitely left a stain on his hands. To the point where even traders would discuss it with an Imperial officer.

His hands were stained, but the consensus seems to be that he had a choice of two evils, and that he chose correctly.