The Secret History of Star Wars

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

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Johonebesus
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Post by Johonebesus »

You were saying?
I am about 99% positive he did explicitly state there were to be nine movies, but my memory isn't perfect, so I'm not going to continue to argue the point until and unless I dig up some quotes from 1979-80. However, I might point out:
The most critical change, however, was incorporating what would have been the climax of Episode IX, a showdown between Luke and Emperor Palpatine.

"The idea was that the Emperor would be hinted at and maybe seen occasionally but there wouldn't be a final confrontation with him until the ninth story," says Kurtz, who ended his association with Lucas after Empire, partially because he was displeased with the aforementioned revisions.
That sounds like a bit more than rumor and idle speculation.


One more thing: all the sequels and prequels are made up of ideas Lucas wanted to use in the first movie, but for a variety of reasons, couldn't. Was he kicking around the idea of Luke being Vader's son while writing ANH? I don't see any reason to believe he wasn't.
From what I gather, and not only from the source in the OP, it wasn't so much plotlines that had to be cut from the movie as individual scenes that got recycled in later films. The prequels weren't really mapped out as much as barely sketched. It's not unusual for movie makers, especially in Science Fiction and Fantasy, to outline a bit of a backstory for their worlds. Nowadays such outlines are commonly called "Bibles." I see no reason to doubt that the backstory in 1977 was pretty much entirely included in the novelization of the first film, and naturally modified after the second. The prequels weren't completely outlined, and Lucas had to pretty much write them from scratch, only having the basic ideas about a republic turned to despotism through the political machinations of the Sith Lord, the rise and fall of Anakin, the extinction of the Jedis, and some vague Clone Wars. All the details, Naboo, Padmé, little Anakin's virgin birth on Tatooine, etc, were thought up as the fourth film was written.


Do you remember everything correctly from 35 years ago?
There is nothing for me to remember thirty-five years ago. However, twenty-five years ago I was making up a fantasy world of my own. I remember quite a bit about what I was thinking then, and how it evolved from year to year. I might not remember every detail, but I can certainly remember major plot points, like when I came up with the name of the planet, when I settled on the properties of the different colored crystals, etc. Of course, I wasn't an adult, and I didn't commit any of this to paper. I have a hard time believing that Lucas just forgot when he decided to make the whole story about Anakin, or made the Emperor the Sith Lord rather than just a corrupt politician. I am also skeptical that Lucas intended for Vader to be Anakin when he wrote a lot of material without any hint of that little detail.


I think it's comical for someone many years later to pretend to know what a total stranger was or was not thinking during the Nixon/Ford administration.
We can't know with absolute certainty what he was thinking. We do know what he said, and at least in part what he wrote. We know that early drafts had Anakin and Vader as separate characters and that the first draft of TESB did not include the father revelation. We know that collaborators were surprised when that detail was revealed. We know that, in light of the second and third movies, the first movie seems kind of creepy, between a lying Obi Wan and the incestuous tensions. We know that the name Darth Vader was used for a henchman long before the final version was written, making Lucas' later claim that he came up with the name as "Dark Father" rather questionable.


I'm not saying that all this is bad, or Lucas is some sort of villain, just that there is a lot of hype, even mythology, around the creation of Star Wars, and that Lucas has been less than completely forthcoming about his early plans and intentions. To hear many hard core fans talk, Lucas set out from the beginning to make a six movie story chronicaling the "Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker", and Lucas himself hasn't done much to refute this idea, and has even encouraged it, despite that it simply isn't so. He may have come up with this idea as early as the production of TESB, but it doesn't seem to be his original intention. The author cited in the OP blames Lucas' insecurity and reluctance to admit that he changed his mind. I'm more inclined to think that he has encouraged the hype to further the commercial success of the franchise. There are some people who just like to bash Lucas and Star Wars. Then there are others who are skeptical of the hype surrounding the series. The two are not the same.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Johonebesus wrote:We know that the name Darth Vader was used for a henchman long before the final version was written, making Lucas' later claim that he came up with the name as "Dark Father" rather questionable.
I've never read or heard anything from Lucas stating that he came up with "Darth Vader" so that it alluded to "Dark Father:" he's said that he came up with character names on a purely phonetic basis and choosing what he thought sounded best.

Darth Vader was originally just a ordinary Imperial general equivalent to the final role occupied by Tarkin, while Vader's essential character was Prince Valorum.

Hell, between the rough and first drafts of the first film's script, the only difference is that all the names were changed (only to be changed back for the second draft), so names obviously weren't something that were so concrete.
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Post by Galvatron »

Elfdart wrote:
The director denies ever stating that he'd make Episodes VII through IX, blaming the media for reporting rumors as fact in the early days of Star Wars.
And he's full of shit. Quotes by George Lucas himself confirming that he planned to make nine films are legion. If you'd bothered to actually read this book before passing judgment on it, you'd know that.
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Post by Elfdart »

Then why does Gary Kurtz, who has no reason to lie for George Lucas, state that:
Gary Kurtz wrote:"There were a lot of things bandied about. There were people who wanted to do novels, tangential stories that have nothing to do with the main story of the films. Every one of those could be turned into a film. There was an idea about using R2-D2 and C-3PO in a feature, or Han Solo's adventures. I suppose you could invent things forever, but I don't think anything concrete was too seriously considered."
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Post by Galvatron »

Because it's the truth? I don't doubt that Lucas' plans for the saga were in a constant flux. In fact, I firmly believe this to be the case.

What I'm calling bullshit on are his recent denials about his stated intentions to make nine films (Episodes I-IX, not spinoffs) despite the fact that they were well-publicized and in his own words.
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Post by Elfdart »

Galvatron wrote:Because it's the truth? I don't doubt that Lucas' plans for the saga were in a constant flux. In fact, I fimly believe this to be the case.

What I'm calling bullshit on are his recent denials about his stated intentions to make nine films (Episodes I-IX, not spinoffs) despite the fact that they were well-publicized and in his own words.
Where does he say "I swear I'm going to make nine Star Wars movies."? He might have said he was thinking about it, or that he had enough material for nine or twelve movies, but that's not the same as promising to do them.
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Post by Galvatron »

Stating his intentions and making a "promise" are two different things. You're setting a condition that's impossible to meet by asking for such a specific statement, but if you want to see the plethora of quotes by the beard himself discussing his plans for the nine-film saga, just say the word. I can copy and paste all day long.
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Post by Elfdart »

Give me your best five -with dates.
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Post by FTeik »

As far as I know, what could have been episodes VII-IX ended up as ROTJ.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

According to Kurtz...

What became Return of the Jedi were actually concept and plot remnants that were trimmed from the first film during script revisions back when it was still The Star Wars, specifically between the Rough and Second Drafts.
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Post by Galvatron »

Elfdart wrote:Give me your best five -with dates.
Interviewer: At one point there were going to be twelve Star Wars films.

Lucas: I cut that number down to nine because the other three were tangential to the saga. Star Wars was the fourth story in the saga and was to have been called "Star Wars, Episode Four: A New Hope." But I decided people wouldn't understand the number system so we dropped it. For Empire, though, we're putting back the number and will call it "Episode Five: The Empire Strikes Back." After the third film in this trilogy we'll go back and make the first trilogy, which deals with the young Ben Kenobi and the young Darth Vader.

Interviewer: What is the third trilogy about?

Lucas: It deals with the character who survives Star Wars III and his adventures.

-Spring 1980 issue of Bantha Tracks

"Star Wars is really three trilogies, nine films..."
-George Lucas, LA Reader, March 7, 1980

Lucas: There are nine [films] floating around there somewhere. I'll guarantee that the first three are pretty much organized in my head, but the other three are kind of out there somewhere.

Starlog: Why didn't you give Luke a girl?

Lucas: You haven't seen the last three yet.

-Starlog, issue 127, February 1988

"Star Wars is a story, divided in three trilogies. It's a long movie of 18 hours, divided in nine parts."
-George Lucas, Premiere, September 1990

"It wasn't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the saga of the Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that would take at least nine films to tell -- three trilogies -- and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story."
-George Lucas, Splinter of the Mind's Eye second edition introduction, 1994
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Post by Johonebesus »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I've never read or heard anything from Lucas stating that he came up with "Darth Vader" so that it alluded to "Dark Father:" he's said that he came up with character names on a purely phonetic basis and choosing what he thought sounded best.

Darth Vader was originally just a ordinary Imperial general equivalent to the final role occupied by Tarkin, while Vader's essential character was Prince Valorum.

Hell, between the rough and first drafts of the first film's script, the only difference is that all the names were changed (only to be changed back for the second draft), so names obviously weren't something that were so concrete.
interviewer: How did you get the name Darth Vader?

Lucas: "Darth" is a variation of dark. And "Vader" is a variation of father. So it's basically Dark Father. All the names have history, but sometimes I make mistakes -- Luke was originally going to be called Luke Starkiller, but then I realized that wasn't appropriate for the character. It was appropriate for Anakin, but not his son. I said, "Wait, we can't weigh this down too much -- he's the one that redeems him."
-"The Cult of Darth Vader", Rolling Stone. 5-19-2005
Spanky, that's the point. There is this myth about Star Wars, that Lucas had the whole story completely planned out in 1977 as the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. Lucas has played into this while deliberately distorting the truth. We might not be clairvoyant, but since the early drafts have been published, we have at least a good idea about what Lucas was thinking while working on the first film, and there doesn't appear to be anything so much as hinting at a "Tragedy of Anakin" until TESB.
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McC
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Post by McC »

The short summary version:

:arrow: Pre-1977: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker, Episode I: Star Wars
:arrow: Pre-1980: Plans to make a 12-film series a la James Bond with different directors taking different takes on the property.
:arrow: Pre-1980: Plans reduced to making a 9-film serial, focusing first on Luke Skywalker, then telling the story of Obi-Wan, and finally telling the story of the "Other" Yoda speaks of in ESB.
:arrow: 1980-1983: Episodes VII-IX are condensed into Episode VI as a result of increasing production and personal stresses related to the creation of Star Wars movies (in particular, marital problems, which culminate in Lucas's divorce from his wife, which sets him back significantly financially).
:arrow: 1983-1990s: The story is slowly twisted so that it was "always" a "saga" about the "Tragedy of Darth Vader."
:arrow: to 2005: The "Tragedy of Darth Vader" culminates in Episode III, which tells the story of Anakin becoming Darth Vader during/after the Clone War (previously, Clone Wars, which took place much earlier in history).

The "secret" history comes in from the fact that Lucas is not up front about how Star Wars changed and grew from its original conception, and instead spins the idea that this was "always" the story of the Tragedy of Darth Vader.
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Post by Galvatron »

McC, have you read the appendices yet?
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Post by McC »

Galvatron wrote:McC, have you read the appendices yet?
Only the first one. I've been ludicrously busy in general lately. There something specific I should look for?
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Post by Galvatron »

Not really, although a lot of this ground regarding the "sequel trilogy" is covered in an appendix.

I wonder if that new book The Making of Star Wars is even worth buying after reading this for free.
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Post by Mange »

Galvatron wrote:Not really, although a lot of this ground regarding the "sequel trilogy" is covered in an appendix.

I wonder if that new book The Making of Star Wars is even worth buying after reading this for free.
Yes, it's definitely worth buying. This e-book doesn't present anything which wasn't already known. It's interesting, but Rinzler's book is absolutely worth it.
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Post by Galvatron »

How big is it? About the size of the SWICS books or more like one of the hardcover novels?
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Post by Mange »

Galvatron wrote:How big is it? About the size of the SWICS books or more like one of the hardcover novels?
Well, its dimensions are somewhere in between and the hardcover 'deluxe' version with storyboards and George Lucas's thoughts on the background of the characters etc. (heck, he even mentioned midichlorians) from the summer of '77 clocks in at 372 pages.
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