Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice (Un-shrunken Spoilers Herein)

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2007-06-08 12:56pm

I read the book and I really think it could have been a lot, given EU-standards of course, better. I fail to see a single, useful, valid reason for the Mandalorians. They build a super-duper attack craft. Wow.
The book would have worked without any Fett or other guys...

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2007-06-08 06:36pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Since when did the opinion of fans ever matter? They cater to the mass market, not the more discerning bunch.

And with stupidity plaguing the main forums like TF.N, I do not think she will be removed anytime soon.

I've sold maybe a dozen copies of Sacrifice, and every single time I try to find out why on earth anyone would buy another SW EU book, and the answer almost always boils down to something like "I've invested so much time into this universe..." or "Gotta collect 'em all!" It seems to me that the EU literature has burned away all of its fanbase except its version of "Bush's 27%," the diehards who will never stop no matter how much the EU reams them. It's really pathetic and I'm sure LFL realizes by now that they can slap the SW logo on any piece of crap and still expect to sell a million copies. They have no incentive to perform better or seek genuine talent. If anything, they are probably developing a disdain for the fans themselves. Karen Traviss and writers of her caliber are the future of Star Wars.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-06-08 11:06pm

Dahak wrote:I read the book and I really think it could have been a lot, given EU-standards of course, better. I fail to see a single, useful, valid reason for the Mandalorians. They build a super-duper attack craft. Wow.
The book would have worked without any Fett or other guys...

how much of the novel was focused heavily on the Mandalorians? And how many "Mandalorians are better than everyone else" examples were there?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2007-06-09 07:42am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Dahak wrote:I read the book and I really think it could have been a lot, given EU-standards of course, better. I fail to see a single, useful, valid reason for the Mandalorians. They build a super-duper attack craft. Wow.
The book would have worked without any Fett or other guys...
how much of the novel was focused heavily on the Mandalorians? And how many "Mandalorians are better than everyone else" examples were there?

It was heavy in the first third or so, and grew a bit less. I think, somewhere around a quarter or so, might be mistaken and it's only the way it felt.
It had a lot of Mandalorians are so super. Mostly because they found beskar on their planet, building a well-nigh indestructible attack craft with it, people becoming very afraid, yadda yadda yadda. Oh, and Bobba and Family stuff.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-06-09 09:54am

Dahak wrote:Mostly because they found beskar on their planet, building a well-nigh indestructible attack craft with it

Well, looks like some really heavy wanking is about to start. Why? Well in case someone around here wasn't aware we had a discussion on Mandalorian Iron being immune to lightsabers, can anyone guess what Mandalorian Iron is called in Mandoa?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2007-06-10 03:39am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Dahak wrote:I read the book and I really think it could have been a lot, given EU-standards of course, better. I fail to see a single, useful, valid reason for the Mandalorians. They build a super-duper attack craft. Wow.
The book would have worked without any Fett or other guys...
how much of the novel was focused heavily on the Mandalorians? And how many "Mandalorians are better than everyone else" examples were there?

In my personal canon, the twisted portrayal of the Mandalorians simply doesn't exist, but one question: How come the Mandalorians are so numerous? My impression has always been that they were very few, but now they seem to be allover the canon.

Pelranius · Post by **Pelranius** » 2007-06-10 07:07am

Mandalorian Iron could be some sort of light weight alloy involving phrik metal or distantly related to it (sort of like platinum, gold and silver. Not a very good analogy, I'll admit)

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-06-10 07:55am

Pelranius wrote:Mandalorian Iron could be some sort of light weight alloy involving phrik metal or distantly related to it (sort of like platinum, gold and silver. Not a very good analogy, I'll admit)

How exactly are platinum, gold and silver related?

Anyway, commonplace SW materials used in construction of everything from ships to literal skyskrapers already demonstrate incredible structural and thermal properties, far beyond anything we can conceive of.
How wankish these these EU materials like Phrik and Mandalorian Iron must be to surpass this!

Sounds more like fantasy than science, really, when some warrior clan can come up with metallurgical (perhaps a better word is "alchemical") methods of producing magical iron stronger than anything that the rest of the scientific and engineering community 20,000+ year old civilization at large can manage..

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2007-06-10 08:03am

General Schatten wrote:
Dahak wrote:Mostly because they found beskar on their planet, building a well-nigh indestructible attack craft with it
Well, looks like some really heavy wanking is about to start. Why? Well in case someone around here wasn't aware we had a discussion on Mandalorian Iron being immune to lightsabers, can anyone guess what Mandalorian Iron is called in Mandoa?

No need to guess:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Beskar

And the metal is several times folded for greater effect ...

Such are the results, when Mando-wank meets Samurai-wank.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2007-06-10 01:14pm

Sounds more like fantasy than science, really, when some warrior clan can come up with metallurgical (perhaps a better word is "alchemical") methods of producing magical iron stronger than anything that the rest of the scientific and engineering community 20,000+ year old civilization at large can manage..

To be fair, Star Wars has always been more fantasy than science. Which doesn't change the fact that Mando-wank is fucking bullshit that I ignore.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-06-10 01:45pm

FTeik wrote:And the metal is several times folded for greater effect ...

Such are the results, when Mando-wank meets Samurai-wank.

Mandalorians are Awesome, Beskar is Awesome, Samurai's are Awesome, Katana are Awesome, and guns are awesome. Who the fuck needs a Death Star when you have a Mandalorian Samurai in Beskar Armour wielding a Beskar Katana Gun, am i rite?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-06-10 02:13pm

General Schatten wrote:
FTeik wrote:And the metal is several times folded for greater effect ...

Such are the results, when Mando-wank meets Samurai-wank.
Mandalorians are Awesome, Beskar is Awesome, Samurai's are Awesome, Katana are Awesome, and guns are awesome. Who the fuck needs a Death Star when you have a Mandalorian Samurai in Beskar Armour wielding a Beskar Katana Gun, am i rite?

At that rate, might as well bring in Shinigami from Bleach to complete the circle. Samurai death gods will complete the circle.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2007-06-10 02:53pm

I was absolutely sick of Mandalorian wank, way back in 1997. Not only is it sickening wank, it's completely made-up and unjustified wanking over a group the fanboys knew nothing about, and whose sole representative in the movies (Boba Fett) wasn't half as awesome as he's made out to be.

When I was a kid in the 90s, all my friends could talk about was Mandalorian this, Mandalorian that. One of my friends wanked up some fanfiction about "The Lost Mandalorian Battlefleet" which could own the Empire AND Rebels at the same time (he must have creamed his pants during AOTC). I wanted to ask them "Do you even know what the fuck a Mandalorian is?"

Just how much did anyone, even someone following the EU closely, know about Mandalorians until very recently, when Travissty made herself the authority on all things Mando?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-06-10 03:17pm

Jim Raynor wrote:Just how much did anyone, even someone following the EU closely, know about Mandalorians until very recently, when Travissty made herself the authority on all things Mando?

Not a damned thing. Remember, I'm an old fart at this. Boba Fett was originally described as being a bounty hunter who wore the armor of the Shock Troopers, the predecessors of the Stormtroopers.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2007-06-10 03:17pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I've sold maybe a dozen copies of Sacrifice, and every single time I try to find out why on earth anyone would buy another SW EU book, and the answer almost always boils down to something like "I've invested so much time into this universe..." or "Gotta collect 'em all!" It seems to me that the EU literature has burned away all of its fanbase except its version of "Bush's 27%," the diehards who will never stop no matter how much the EU reams them. It's really pathetic and I'm sure LFL realizes by now that they can slap the SW logo on any piece of crap and still expect to sell a million copies. They have no incentive to perform better or seek genuine talent. If anything, they are probably developing a disdain for the fans themselves. Karen Traviss and writers of her caliber are the future of Star Wars.

I'm sticking around for the same reason I'm still following several Marvel titles: As with Tony Stark, I want to see Jacen get his comeuppance. There's still the Coruscant Nights trilogy and the Death Star novel, but short of Del Rey reverseing the cancellation of Luceno's Plagueis novel, I'm done with with the post-ROTJ novels.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2007-06-10 03:34pm

Jim Raynor wrote:Just how much did anyone, even someone following the EU closely, know about Mandalorians until very recently, when Travissty made herself the authority on all things Mando?

As I mentioned above, the impression I had was that they were very few. I remember Shysa and Tobin from the old Marvel comics (Death in the City of Bone, which was my favorite SW comic when I was a small kid in the mid 80s), but that's about it. Now they seem to be everywhere and now they have their own language which I totally fail to see the need of and which never has been alluded to earlier and they are totally wanked out. I utterly dislike the concept, it's one of the things which have ruined the EU and I won't be buying a single EU novel by Karen Traviss nor any novel which includes wanked out Mandofundies.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2007-06-10 03:49pm

Well, the way Mandalorians have been featured in the more recent series and books, it seems they've had their ups and downs throughout history.

Their high-point seems to have been during the Mandalorian Wars, where their military was at its biggest. Then comes periods of decline and after thousands of years, the New Sith Wars, where the Mandalorians get to see more high-profile fighting again. Then, after almost a thousand years of quiet, the Mandalorians reach their nadir, with only a few small mercenary armies. And that's where Jango Fett grows up to eventually become the Clone Army template and indirectly cause the eventual resurgence of the Mandalorians through his "son", Boba.

Going through the 60+ years of time between the birth of the Clone Army to the rise of the Mandalorians in the Corellian-GA War, I can see the potential for growth over the decades, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way it's handled. At least Empire at War gave us another Mandalorian ship manufacturer that provides actual capital ships rather than just fancy starfighters.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-06-11 01:19am

On the subject of Mandalorian Iron and lightsabers, the only time in my limited EU reading experience was "Tales of the Jedi" where Mandalorian Iron was merely lightsaber resistant and a fallen Jedi was able to hack his way through a barrier of Mandalorian Iron.

So Mandalorian Iron performed, at best, about as well as Phrik alloy. So the wankers should practice some fucking restraint.

Not that they will. Fuckers. And I like Mandalorians.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2007-06-11 11:57am

To be fair, I wondered a long time before the Traviss-kind of Mando-wank started, if Jango and Boba weren't inspired by the Manga "Kozure Ogami" (="Lone Wolf with Cub").

Concerning the first thing I knew about Mandalorians, according to the novel of TESB, Boba Fett wore the armour of a feared warrior-group, that had been whipped out during the clone-wars by the Jedi.

Now I ask you: Do the Mandalorians look like they were whipped out?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2007-06-11 12:23pm

Weren't most Mandalorians in the Rebellion era a few scattered groups and individuals? IIRC, Boba Fett in his old age started to gather them again.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-06-11 06:26pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:On the subject of Mandalorian Iron and lightsabers, the only time in my limited EU reading experience was "Tales of the Jedi" where Mandalorian Iron was merely lightsaber resistant and a fallen Jedi was able to hack his way through a barrier of Mandalorian Iron.

You're forgetting Lumiya's Lightwhip, which requires metal strong enough to be sheathed in the energy of a lightsaber.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-06-11 06:39pm

General Schatten wrote:
You're forgetting Lumiya's Lightwhip, which requires metal strong enough to be sheathed in the energy of a lightsaber.

Didn't read that, so no, I'm not forgetting it.

General Soontir Fel · Post by **General Soontir Fel** » 2007-06-12 11:47am

As I said before, Legacy of the Force series in general is better than most of what we've been getting in the recent past. But Traviss is easily the worst author of the lot, and for more than Mando-wanking.

1. Minimialism strikes back. It usually wouldn't bother me, since all the authors--yes, even Zahn--do it. However, it's internally inconsistent minimalism.

Sacrifice, page 18 wrote: "We lost nearly a million and a half people fighting the vongese. That might be small change for Coruscant, but it's a disaster for us.

I agree. Small change indeed, which, of course, means Mandalorians shouldn't matter a fuck at all. However,

Sacrifice, page 31 wrote: "Las Lagon and Beris between them contribute twenty thousand troops, tops. The diplomatic benefit strikes me as outweighing both the principle and any use they might be.

This is a discussion at the highest level of the GA government. Just... WTF? Not just absurd, but how does it it fit with the above quote? Does Traviss read her own stuff?

2. At least in Bloodlines, in the end, the Mandalorian and Han/Leia/Jacen plotlines came together. Here... nothing. It takes up about a third of the book, and it could have been cut entirely.

3. Mara Jade was my favorite EU character, and while I don't mind her dying, I think there should have been more to it. And yes, it should have been either Zahn or Troy Denning to do the honors, so to speak.

4. Boba Fett gets immunity from aging. Fuck you, Traviss. So Mara's OK to kill off, but your precious Bob'ika (I'm serious, that's the name other Fett clones have for him... according to Traviss) can not only get magical medical science to save him, but in the end, he also gets a chance to reunite with his wife, whom he thought dead for years...

5. Darth Caedus as a name sucks. I could think of a dozen better ideas.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-06-12 03:13pm

I fail to see how people continue to adore a group whose most famous member was accidentally killed by a blind guy. How badass can you possibly be?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2007-06-12 03:36pm

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:Bob'ika (I'm serious, that's the name other Fett clones have for him... according to Traviss)

Bob'ika?!

The list was bad enough as it was, but this? And they let an author make that kind of changes to a character created by the creator of Star Wars? Alright, now the EU is definitely dead. Hopefully the Clone Wars CG series and the upcoming live-action series will be worth it.

EDIT: I looked around, and heck, even TMcE seems to take issue with the portrayal of the Mandalorians in Sacrifice.
All I say is: Enough with this Mando crap already.