STGOD: A Dead Art?

[Beowulf]

I support a clean state universe. I have nation ideas that don't require any previous one, and it'd make it easier for other players.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Any giuld to how we create fleets and such?

My only expeirances so far has been "Steam and Steel" where we had points we could spend... What are our restrictions herE?

[Covenant]

Any giuld to how we create fleets and such?

My only expeirances so far has been "Steam and Steel" where we had points we could spend... What are our restrictions herE?

I'd like a course on it as well, especially so that I understand how points translate into power.

[Hotfoot]

Any giuld to how we create fleets and such?

My only expeirances so far has been "Steam and Steel" where we had points we could spend... What are our restrictions herE?

Well that would entirely depends on what people want to decide. However, before deciding on a construction system, it would make sense to decide on a model for how combat should work. Otherwise, you run into serious issues concerning OOBs and fleet effectiveness.

[Starglider]

However, before deciding on a construction system, it would make sense to decide on a model for how combat should work. Otherwise, you run into serious issues concerning OOBs and fleet effectiveness.

Ok, I was going to wait for Thirdfain to review this first but since combat is being brought up I thought I'd mention it. Here's my suggestion for a ship spec system. If I develop it it will have a) javascript to calc the point costs, b) a database back end to store user fleets, c) a little web app to calculate the outcome of fleet engagements. This is an upper end for complexity, not at the MOO2 ship design level, but above the 'Axis & Allies' threshold I specified earlier - I don't think it would be sane for STGOD if a program wasn't available to handle all the combat. Obviously in practice results would be subject to mod override/fiat for special circumstances, and would serve as an objective starting point for the narration. What do you think?

[Hotfoot]

Wow, that's far and away above anything even I've suggested for a rules set for an STGOD. Looks interesting though.

[InnocentBystander]

However, before deciding on a construction system, it would make sense to decide on a model for how combat should work. Otherwise, you run into serious issues concerning OOBs and fleet effectiveness.

Ok, I was going to wait for Thirdfain to review this first but since combat is being brought up I thought I'd mention it. Here's my suggestion for a ship spec system. If I develop it it will have a) javascript to calc the point costs, b) a database back end to store user fleets, c) a little web app to calculate the outcome of fleet engagements. This is an upper end for complexity, not at the MOO2 ship design level, but above the 'Axis & Allies' threshold I specified earlier - I don't think it would be sane for STGOD if a program wasn't available to handle all the combat. Obviously in practice results would be subject to mod override/fiat for special circumstances, and would serve as an objective starting point for the narration. What do you think?

Way... way too much!

[Crossroads Inc.]

However, before deciding on a construction system, it would make sense to decide on a model for how combat should work. Otherwise, you run into serious issues concerning OOBs and fleet effectiveness.

Ok, I was going to wait for Thirdfain to review this first but since combat is being brought up I thought I'd mention it. Here's my suggestion for a ship spec system. If I develop it it will have a) javascript to calc the point costs, b) a database back end to store user fleets, c) a little web app to calculate the outcome of fleet engagements. This is an upper end for complexity, not at the MOO2 ship design level, but above the 'Axis & Allies' threshold I specified earlier - I don't think it would be sane for STGOD if a program wasn't available to handle all the combat. Obviously in practice results would be subject to mod override/fiat for special circumstances, and would serve as an objective starting point for the narration. What do you think?

Starglider is now my favorite poster in this thread...

I'm all for that!

[Starglider]

Way... way too much!

It'd be impractical to actually play manually, but if I write the code and restrict the combat options to 'set agressiveness' (oh and maybe 'set target priority by enemy ship class' for advanced players - specifically for the 'sacrifice system defence force gloriously by taking out enemy flagship' maneuver ), I think it would be practical (or at least, different). That way game mechanics can stay entirely out of the main narration thread. It'd take a bit more work to make the webapp track game time/events and movement around the map, but this might be handy to avoid the 'missed a critical posting spree' problem.

Since there seems to be some interest I'll work up the actual combat rules based on that spec. The 'crew size', 'resource cost', 'FTL speed' and optionally 'troops carried' fields are supposed to plug into some sort of strategic context, anyone care to specify an appropriate one? OTOH if you have an alternative scheme that you'd like coded up let me know (other than 'ships have one stat, points cost' which doesn't need any spec coding but might still benefit from some sort of simple persistent universe state tracking app).

EDIT: Yeah I know, the shield type distinction is excessive, but I wanted to get at least a minimal paper-scissors-stones going with the weapons, though if you want to opt out of that you can just give your ships armour (which works equally well against everything) and no shields or ecm. Plus the alien species I want to play are essentially colonies of giant snails that move around by creating a force field envelope/'body' around themselves; all their tech makes heavy use of layered fields and is totally unarmoured.

[Hotfoot]

Right now there isn't even an agreed-upon combat mechanic, so making a highly complicated ship construction system is not very practical.

Suffice to say that this level of detail has never been done before under any previous STGOD, and frankly effects-based play has always been more important a consideration than crunchy ship construction.

[InnocentBystander]

Way... way too much!

It'd be impractical to actually play manually, but if I write the code and restrict the combat options to 'set agressiveness' (oh and maybe 'set target priority by enemy ship class' for advanced players - specifically for the 'sacrifice system defence force gloriously by taking out enemy flagship' maneuver ), I think it would be practical (or at least, different). That way game mechanics can stay entirely out of the main narration thread. It'd take a bit more work to make the webapp track game time/events and movement around the map, but this might be handy to avoid the 'missed a critical posting spree' problem.

Since there seems to be some interest I'll work up the actual combat rules based on that spec. The 'crew size', 'resource cost', 'FTL speed' and optionally 'troops carried' fields are supposed to plug into some sort of strategic context, anyone care to specify an appropriate one? OTOH if you have an alternative scheme that you'd like coded up let me know (other than 'ships have one stat, points cost' which doesn't need any spec coding but might still benefit from some sort of simple persistent universe state tracking app).

EDIT: Yeah I know, the shield type distinction is excessive, but I wanted to get at least a minimal paper-scissors-stones going with the weapons, though if you want to opt out of that you can just give your ships armour (which works equally well against everything) and no shields or ecm. Plus the alien species I want to play are essentially colonies of giant snails that move around by creating a force field envelope/'body' around themselves; all their tech makes heavy use of layered fields and is totally unarmoured.

Well, if you want to go through all this just to write up the 'ships' section of your Order Of Battle, sure whatever. I'm just saying your time would be better spent writing an OOB, rather than a webapp to calculate how much reactor fuel it takes to fire a laser cannon.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Either way this is looking fun.. I've designed dozens ofd Starship designs over the years...And now that I don't have to worry about thier looks bein related to how practical they are, I can finally bring out ships like this one ":D

[White Haven]

Plus, have fun anticipating all the cracked-out ideas players will have. Let's see, in 2k5 I recall seeing, in no particular order, Greater Ruin spells, as per D&D Epic Spell list, a spread of 40k weapons of all flavors, sublight, FTL, and portal-FTL missiles, super-stealthed slowboat nuke-head torps, enormous spinal railguns, M/AM converging beam flakbursters, and so on. Some of those can be devilishly hard to fit into a single codified system.

[Academia Nut]

Hmmm... oh, I might as well throw my hat into the ring on this one. I've got a few ideas for a few space faring races I could use.

Oh, and Starglider, not that your efforts aren't impressive, but from reading through some of the old STGOD stuff, there are some weird things that probably can't be adequately modelled by a computer. In fact, around here, coming up with rules is asking to have someone twist them about. Of course, no rules results in the same thing, but it's easy to say "No" when things are a bit more freeform.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I think Stargliders 'thing' is good for some of us newer types here.. .We don't all have to use it... but it looks like an easy system to generate ships along a structured layout.

[InnocentBystander]

Guys... you don't need to "generate ships along a structured layout". Just make something up that you think is cool!

[Stormbringer]

I support a clean state universe. I have nation ideas that don't require any previous one, and it'd make it easier for other players.

I'll go along. I'd just prefer some sort of backstory as that makes it so much easier to develop a nation than just going from an utterly blank slate.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Can we get a Galactic Map? So much of my Roleplay and Nation building goes smother if I have an idea of where things are.

[Academia Nut]

If we want to go with something new, I think a sort of post-Imperial, end of Dark Ages thing could work well. It lets you have lots of nation states all looking to carve out their own new empires while making sure that no one group has any sort of major advantage over another of a particular size because one is older than the other or such. It also gives you lots of unexplored territory where swarms of unholy warmachines still slumber, waiting for some fool to awaken them and unleash their wrath (*cough*mods*cough*).

[Duckie]

Somehow I think perhaps people are missing the idea of an STGOD. Yes, it's Structured, but not that much.

The maximum of combat mechanics we saw in 2k5 was something like this:

Qar-Oeq-Nyveiz-class Dreadnought [55][Warship][+25 vs Warships]
Luf Qar'Nedjnev-class Point Defense Frigate (FF) [3][Warship][+1 vs. Fighters]
Monau'Ra Orbital Defense Turret [4][Defense]
where the Qar-Oeq-Nyveiz would be worth 80 points against Warships but 30 against Fighters and Bombers, the Luf Qar'Nedjnev would be worth 4 against Fighters but 2 against Warships, and the Orbital Turret is worth 8 against everything but can't move. The only type not listed is Bombers, as I didn't have any, but IIRC they were fighters that count double against warships and stationary defenses but are vulnerable to fighters (and warships that specialize against fighters, like the Luf Qar). Bonuses also couldn't exceed half the ship's base cost, meaning you couldn't make a handgun for 1 point that deals +1,000,000 against stationary defenses or whatever.

And even then if a 60 point fleet and a 50 point fleet fight it didn't make a 10 point fleet emerge from the left side and the right side totally destroyed, points were just guidelines as to combat effectiveness.

Personally, I liked the system and thought it was a good mix of outlining capabilities without putting things in stone too much.

As an example of the flexibility, someone (Nitram, perhaps?) sunk 500 points in a stargate system, while I took 300 and made an SG-1 like team called ULSO (Uber Leet Special Ops) who were individually worth a third of a star ship in point cost (star ship being little 3-pointers, not the 100-point monstrosities I had commanding fleets). These elite 100 soldiers are basically bred for dumbass luck, where they can MacGuyver an anti-tank gun out of bubblegum and string if it suits the plot (basically, they perform as if they were on a TV show in terms of plot shielding ).

And presumably, 100 points of troops using his stargate in a way that gives them a clear advantage by surprise or mobility or whatnot would be the equivalent of 2 ULSO Companies by points value, and if they faced off it would come down to better tactics, better writing, and a sense of fair play in who would win. Me, I'm betting on the Korean SG-1 Bootlegs.

Starglinder's attempt, while commendable, is completely over the top in terms of detail that should be going into fun descriptions. While I do get OCD about my ships, detailing the turret numbers and ship stats and so forth like any other STGODder with an OoB fetish, the game is meant to be played and overcomplicating it sort of drags it down.

[Beowulf]

Can we get a Galactic Map? So much of my Roleplay and Nation building goes smother if I have an idea of where things are.

We sorta need to sketch out the backstory before we get to that. There isn't going to much, probably.

[Crossroads Inc.]

The more I think about it, reading what others are saying, the more I'm thinking of abandoning the large, multi alliance Empeir that is at the core of own Sci-Fi universe and go with something more exotic...

It sounds like playing it safe winds up being boring in these games.

[Stormbringer]

It sounds like playing it safe winds up being boring in these games.

Depends on how you define playing it safe. Doing nothing, risking nothing, and having no story is boring as hell.

I played a fairly straight forward militaristic state. But got a lot of mileage out of it by being the one to try brazen schemes (ask Thirdfain about the Black Forest) and having a lot of stuff going on.

STGODs rapidly take on a life of their own if they're any good.

[Tasoth]

I guess I'll bite. Don't know how well I'll do, but I'll bite.

[Hotfoot]

"Conventional" isn't bad. In fact, the worst thing I can imagine is someone who tries to be "clever" by coming up with some sort of bullshit unstoppable tech/magic crap that lets them go "lolz I win". That's why effect-based descriptors are extremely important. I don't want to hear if your railguns can make a 1kt slug go .5c, and because of that you can blow up a whole planet with a frigate. I just want to know if battleships are worth a damn in combat by themselves or if they need a hundred of them to do anything, and how long it takes them to blast down a planetary shield, then to ruin the surface of a planet.

Anyway, why don't people start suggesting how they'd like combat to work? I've found that there is virtually no use for cruisers or escorts in 90% of the STGODs, that battle is determined almost entirely by the number of big ships you bring to the game.