[40k] Space Marines vs Stargrunts

[NecronLord]

Aside from quietly shrivelling up from shame from my appalling reading comprehension (an idiocy for which I apologise), I've looked it up. Andrew's right on Extreme Range band. "Up to ten times maximum range for bolters, auto-guns, missile-launchers, and all weapons which fire a physical projectile. Bows, crossbows, slings and energy weapons have a range five times as long as their stated maximum. Note that beamers and grenades have no extended range - the maximum remains as given.

"At this range a D6 roll of 6 is required before the normal 'to hit' roll is made. All strengths of hits are reduced by 1 beyond their normal maximum range."

I'd have made lasguns and similar weapons line-of-sight. but... It's better than nothing...

[andrewgpaul]

In the interest of fairness, I'd better point out this rules was quietly ditched in 2nd edition, and as such hasn't been part of the game for about 15 years.

[NecronLord]

Yes. All sorts of rules in RT were ditched pretty quickly. Some of which are a shame. I really wish I could get units into combat with say, scarabs or guard infantry, and then just have the rest of my army shoot wildly into the melee.

The lack of shooting-into-melee is one of the things that most annoys me in any given GW game.

And splitting units would be neat, too.

[GunDoctor]

Well, it also depends on their leadership. I know that there are quite a few guard officers who got their posting through money or family connections. Space Marine officers, OTOH, have to earn their position.

Quite, saddle even the Space Marines with idiotic upperclass twits and they will suffer. Sometimes the quality of your troops, and especially NCOs can make up for a lacking officer's corps, and one can 'muddle through to victory, what?'

Unfortunatley the Imperial Army/Guard seems to be lacking in long service professionals, especially during times of major military operations. Instead of using the core regiments as cadre to train the newly raised units to any sort of standard, the fluff seems to show regiments shipped from the raising grounds to the dying grounds.

[Imperial Overlord]

That can vary tremendously. Some times the units raised for the Imperial Guard are the best of the Planetary Defence Forces, units with long histories and lots of experience. And sometimes they are press ganged cannon fodder.

[GunDoctor]

Yes. All sorts of rules in RT were ditched pretty quickly. Some of which are a shame. I really wish I could get units into combat with say, scarabs or guard infantry, and then just have the rest of my army shoot wildly into the melee.

The lack of shooting-into-melee is one of the things that most annoys me in any given GW game.

And splitting units would be neat, too.

Ahah! You might give Star Grunt II a look through. If you've ever thought it might be nice to; detatch support weapons from your manuver elements, reorginize two attrited element as one stronger one, use the communications equipment that the fluff says you're supposed to have to pass on targeting info to on board or off board inderect fire, or have a chance to react to opposition movement quicker than a full turn sepuence, you might like it.

[andrewgpaul]

I've got a copy of Stargrunt floating about somewhere. I wasn't too keen on the millions of footery counters, but the one time I actually played it, it was fun. Sadly, Stargrunt is the one you have to pay for Full Thrust and Dirtside II are free downloads, but SGII isn't.

IIRC, there's some unofficial playtest rules for the Phalon somewhere on the web.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes. All sorts of rules in RT were ditched pretty quickly. Some of which are a shame. I really wish I could get units into combat with say, scarabs or guard infantry, and then just have the rest of my army shoot wildly into the melee.

The lack of shooting-into-melee is one of the things that most annoys me in any given GW game.

And splitting units would be neat, too.

The goofy and insane 'extreme range" stuff aside, I do have to admit I have a greater fondness/preference for the earlier edition stuff. (I have a plethora of useful tidbit calcs just showing how fucking sophisticated the Guard was portrayed bakc then - despite what some idiots say.) computerized medikits, comlinks with 100 km range and audio/visual capability, etc...

Hell they had grenade launchers that could fire grenades on an electromagnetic charge (railgun grgenades!)

The VEhicle stuff in partitcular ws neat. Not only did the Guard have antigrav vehicles explicitly (including the land speeder, no "Land's Speeder" crap.) They Had rhinos (though the Chimaera is IMHO a better design) they had the Rhino variants like the Predator. Basilisks could fire off two shots instead of one. Demolishers had insane recoil. VEhicles could have automated systems (autopilot, auto targeting) as well as targeters and sensors. They even had power fields available for the tanks (I liked that.. a nice defensive complenet to the Guard as mobile barriers.)
And the Chimaeras running on nuclear reactors or wood fuel

All in all it was more logically consistent in terms of tech - none of this "well the Guards have antigrav jetpacks and grav parachutes, but they don't have grav speeders or gravtanks anymore") or having automation/sensors on disposable remote stationary sentry drones (Tarantulas) but not on the tanks or other vehicles.

Hell, back in RT era, the Guard could use Land Raiders IIRC

[Connor MacLeod]

You know, they're not that powerful. Space Marines can be killed quite easily by many weapons; some races smallarms - necrons spring to mind - are quite capable of killing them.

Well yeah Concentrated hellgun fire (though they're tougher to kill from the fluff I've read than Necrons are) or sniper/marksman fire from such weapons (IE LArkin in F&O) can injure/kill (especially headshots.) Meltaguns can vaporize them. Plasma weapons can kill them, as can lascannon (simialr magnitude weapons) anti-tank weapons like krak warheads can.

But, phyiscally and mentally they are quite formidable. Many times stronger and faster than a man (AoD says 10x stronger unaugmented. In armour its probably at least several times that. Armoured space marines can cover 3-5 meters from a standing start in armour.. that's automobile speeds in terms of running capability compared to a normal man..)

They can take many times the damage (out of armor) of a human, and in manyn cases still function. The armor makes the immune to most conventional weapons save the most insanely powerful advanced al ien tech (IE gauss weapons) or specifically heavy/powerful anti tank weapons (or plasma.)

With their armour, they have acess to fairly sophisticated detection gear (including targeters and auspex), NBC protection. They can subsist for days in or out of the suits (even in vaccuum - thank Eye of Terror for that mainly.) without supplies (save ammo.) Boltguns are pretty goddamn powerful (the kinetic effect of the bolt is at least as poweful as a very heavy AmR, possibly several times greater for certain ammo, and the explosive component has energy equal to many tens or hundreds of grams of TNT, up to several kilos or tens of kilos, depending on the source and the ammo. Man portable lascannons, meltas, and plasma weapons only enhance that.)

With their sophisticated vehicles and such, they ARE quite formidable. But yeah, I do agree that in some cases they ARE over-rated (I've heard the company of space marine sis better than an entire regiment' stuff too, or that companies can conquer whole solar systems.) Alot of those statements are overrated for the most part. Any human with a sufficiently heavy weapon (ie jurgen with a melta or Bragg with a rocket launcher) can defeat one in the right circumstances.

I think the major aspect that many forget is that the Marines aren't JUST power suited psychopaths with big rocekt guns and swords. They still have and employ orbital support (a big help that) and combined arms vehicles (another big supporrt) as well. They may even well make use of their chapter serfs (BFG implies they do in boarding actions at least and soul drinkers in non-direct combat situations - so why not in other cases.)

I also think they tend to neglect the fact that Space Marines excel in lightning strikes on precise targets, and that many of the cases where they 'purge a planet" of threats they not only have some help (Guard or PDF or whatnot) they also have quite a while to do it (months as I recall)
Scatter or breaking an enemy and then mopping them up piecemeal is alot different than taking on the entire army as a single entity en-masse.

It also probably doesn't help that the "one thousand chapters of one thousand Marines" gets tossed around so much. Considering all they're reputed to do and where, you get the impression (coupled with the myth and exaggerations) that they're supermen. Personally I think the "one million SM" figure is at least several times underrated (which is why they would be many times overrated )

The REAL fun question is: If Space Marines are a major time investment (both for creating the organs and implanting them as well as the rigorous/fatal canidate selection process, how can companies or squads lose the large percentages they do in many of the novels and still remain a viable force at large?)

[Connor MacLeod]

I think this quote sums up the proper way to write and use Space Marines.

Too many chapters used their space marines for jobs that could be left to planetary defence auxilia. A near criminal waste of resources, as far as Deathbringers were concerned. There were approximately a thousand brother marines. The Lycurgan Dominions had more than forty million planetary defence personnel, trained and equipped as Imperial Guard.

So this was how marines should be used, as far as Lysander was concerned. Strategic strike. Tactical operations with strategic ramifications.

In this light, a lot of things about Marrines make sense. They might be facing impossible odds, but they do so in a way that they never face them all at once. They don't have lots of heavy armor because they often don't need to bother with it. Their ships are engines and weapons and bases for their all impotant landing craft. They can't win all the battles, so they win ones that must be won, no matter what.

Where was that from, out of curiosity?

[Stark]

Connor, what kind of casualties do Space Marine units take in the novels? Even in the few rulebooks I've read they emphasize the time and resources needed for every Space Marine, and that serious losses can cripple a chapter or force an almalgamation with another chapter. A chapter losing 100 Marines in a year would seem to be on the downward slope to oblivion?

[Dominus]

Where was that from, out of curiosity?

Vehrec's quote hails from a renowned Star Trek/40k crossover fanfiction whose link has been tossed around here in various fanfic recommendation threads before... ah yes, here it is:

Elsewhen, and Elsewhere

[Ford Prefect]

or that companies can conquer whole solar systems.

I have no idea where people get that from. There was an outright statement comparing the strength of a Chapter of Space Marines to that of a Legion. It went something along the lines of 'A full Chapter of Space Marines can take a planet. A Legion could taken entire systems', though that's from a hazy memory.

[Connor MacLeod]

A balanced Wargame is a stupid idea. The whole point of a wargame is to figure out a path to victory, or least bad defeat, given the constraints of the situation. Sometimes you get to be the Israelis in '67, and sometimes you're stuck with the Finns in '35, and, oh god, oh god, sometimes you get stuck with the Arabs. In cased you missed all of human history, war isn't fair or balanced. Yet sometimes the Boers win. Sometimes the barbarians get the jump on the Romans. Sometimes the Egyptians achieve strategic suprise on the Israelis. Sometimes the Americans pack up and leave for no apparant on ground reason. Sometimes the fuzzies turn the square.

Here's another analogy for you: Modern US Navy vs Iraq. Would you want to play as Iraq in the "real" version? The simple fact is that people play a "war game" for fun and enjoyment, they don't want to face an automatically losing proposition.

No, "real war" isn't about balance or fairness, but real war isn't about fun either. Its about winning, and if winning means having a lopsided advantage over your enemy so you steamroll him, then so be it. But are you going to tell me that makes for a fun game? It doesn't matter if one side is unmatched and "may" win some of the time. If one side has a considerable edge I'd be rather frustrated and angry with the game system because its so goddamn unbalanced. I don't care to lose, but maybe you do.

Or, perhaps, maybe it only works with scenarios where there isn't an inherently lopsided advantage for one reason or another. Or maybe Wargames ARE balanced . There are lots of ways to "balancec" a game. In which case its hardly fair to generalize wargaming.

Do the best with what you have. Sometimes you win even with a craptastic correlation of forces. That's why wars happen, there are qualitites that cannot be quantified in an order of battle, like leadership. That's why diplomats don't just sit down with the orbats and say 'ya, you could wup us, what do you want?'.

So by your logic, its even possible for any oppoinent with a drastic disadvantage to win, given the right circumstnaces? Like say, Modern Britain vs WW1 era Germany?

Further, I notice again you emphasize the "sometimes" excuse, and imply that if someone can't "win" in a wargame without a disadvantage, tehre must be something with the gamer. Care to justify why this is more than just egotism on your part? I question severely whether being able to win only "some of the time" (which could mean anything from "1 in 3" to "1 in 10") is a good enough excuse.

Yes, WH40k can be entertaining. But it would be more so if the rules system A) actually reflected its source material in anything other than a passing fashion, and B) actually rewarded anything other than give a volley and charge. Again is it too much to ask that a 'miniatures battlegame' present a naturalistic and self consistent simulation of the fictionial universe it is supposed to represent? It would be sophmoric to ask for 'realism' in the sense of our world, yes thank you SirNitram, but is it so to ask for a game that acuratly reflects the fictional reality it is based on?

Actually the earlier fluff and game stuff did represent a good deal of what you see in the fluff and novels. But that lead to the complexity you were complaining about. You really sound like those SB "doctrine wankers" who whinge about 40K tactics on teh basis of history alone. (oh and nice strawman, 40K is not "just give a volley and charge" - you can play it that way, but there are otehr ways you can play it too. Last I checked, napoleonic era didn't have communications sets, orbital support, or handheld sensor systems.)

On top of that I laugh at the idea that you think "futurisitic warfare" that involves space ships and starfighters can somehow be portrayed "realistically" I must have forgotten where the US built its first space battleships or something. Maybe they're all hiding behind the moon put there by MIB.

Some of us, having this dilema of wanting to play battles in this universe, decide that there's nothing to say you can't paly with your shiney Citadel minis using a rules system that doesn't blow chunks. We do so.

It sounds more like you ARE bitching about 40K in general simply for the sake of bitching, ,rather than having anything meaningful to contribute. Frnakly it sounds rather arrogant to me. Unless you have something more meaningful than a bunch of "40K ain't "realistic and it sucks" then go take your whinging to spacecbattles. Its much more welcomed there than it is here.

And to whoever asked if the marines could have won the OP firefight by just shooting, the answer is no. Getting into a medium range shooting contest with infantry dug in on a hill with crew served weapons is the definition of 'bad idea.' However, by shooting, thereby supressing the enemy positions, and then flanking said hard points, the Sparce Marines could have made that hilltop position untenable. At that point, either the enemy attempts to withdraw in the open and get shot up, they stay put and get blasted by satchel charges and grenades, or attempt to assault through the weakest point of the marine lines.

Tactics. It might sound elemtary, but it ain't easy. The enemy has a plan too, that's why he's the enemy the dirty dog.

Now if you want to say that WH40k isn't a wargame, and thus is just fine being what it is, then I kind of see your point. And yes, the balance and simple simon rules ARE a marketing decision, we're all aware of that. GW's main market is 12 year olds who think that Picket's charge was glorius, if they're aware of it in the first place. Gotta love mum's credit card. That doesn't mean it's the only way!

Again, it becomes blatantly obvious you sound like a SB.com "doctrine wanker" (who by definition are chronically incapable of analysis and just do it to bash 40K for some personal reason.)

Now, tactics are all very well and good, but they mean fuck all without quantified capabilities. (your tactics can be all sophisticated as shit but it means fuck all if you can't hurt the other side.) I do despise people who act as if "tactics are the only important" factor in capability, and largely ignore technology (particularily since the evolution of tactics has, historically, depended HEAVILY on technology.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, what kind of casualties do Space Marine units take in the novels? Even in the few rulebooks I've read they emphasize the time and resources needed for every Space Marine, and that serious losses can cripple a chapter or force an almalgamation with another chapter. A chapter losing 100 Marines in a year would seem to be on the downward slope to oblivion?

Well the sample I can immediately think of comes from the Soul Drinkers (who specialize in ship to ship boarding and fighting actions.)

They a.) boarded and took an armed space fort that was guarded by a large army of mutants (not exactly well equipped as say the Guard is, but still dangerous because some were very large and freakishly strong - like Ogryn.)

b.) they then used fighters to board and assault an Adeptus Mechanicus Ordinatus platform in space (don't ask) with 100 marines. Fighting against thousands of Tech Guard and some electro priests, they took about 30-40 casualties IIRC before gaining control of the platform and turning it on the battlefleet (which launched a giant-sized version of a Haywire grenade.) and killed "countless thousands" of Tech Guard.

That's the most immediate example.

A more extreme one might be the fight between the Ultramarines (entire forcec IIRC) and allied forces against a Tyranid Hive fleet. The Ultramarines got pretty well wiped out there. (As I recall vaguely they didn't do too well in the Ultramarines novels either. In one of the short story they lost a whole fuckload of scouts to the Word Bearers.)

When you consider that they typically deploy in several squads or maybe a company or two in most respects, and it takes decades to train and create a new Spacec Marine when lost. Even say, 15-20% casualties (which is fairly light for a Marine) is going to hurt the overall warfighting capability of the Space Marines.

It gets even worse when you consider that in some cases (many as I recall from the fluff I've read or skimmed in my own library) they don't always recover the geneseed from fallen marines. And they supposedly CAN'T replace it easily, either. (That doesn't include the at least two incidents - storm of iron and angels of darkness, when sizeable portions of geneseed were stolen by Chaos.)

[Stark]

The geneseed is supposed to be retardedly important, though (I don't fully understand why this is) and operations just to recover geneseed have been mentioned in some of the chapter books I read back in the day. I believe it was a big part of the Space Hulk thing too: go fight off thousands of incredibly deadly genestealers, we really need those four guy's geneseed etc.

My understanding is that Scouts are 'junior' Space Marines, so even heavy Scout casualties would fuck a chapter in the long term.

[Ford Prefect]

The geneseed is supposed to be retardedly important, though (I don't fully understand why this is)

Geneseed means that you can grow Space Marine organs, which means you can make whole new hardcases. I think you can make a whole bunch, actually, but I'm not entirely sure. Likewise, I believe there are large amounts of ready stock organs available in storage.

However, you'd think the imperium might be able to skip around the whole geneseed thing and just duplicate the genetic material as they did with the Afriel Strain. Of course, this could result in yet more hilariously unlucky Space Marines (as the Afriel Strain is supernaturally unlucky, probably because they were genetically engineered).

[Stark]

Yeah I got that, but the whole 'can't make SM organs without this genetic material we could surely synthesize without implanting an organ for the express purpose of synthesizing it in our frontline soldiers' thing is beyond me.

[Connor MacLeod]

The geneseed is supposed to be retardedly important, though (I don't fully understand why this is) and operations just to recover geneseed have been mentioned in some of the chapter books I read back in the day. I believe it was a big part of the Space Hulk thing too: go fight off thousands of incredibly deadly genestealers, we really need those four guy's geneseed etc.

Angels of Darkness (kind of) explains that s ince a Space Marine has two progenoids, they can create two new marines from a single set. If that's true, you probably CAN devise ways to increase the amount (grow the progneoids in some other host, kill the host, remove the progenoids, rinse and repeat a few times. Exponetnial grrowth, although that process takes decades IIRC.)

And its not supposedly "impossible" to create it anew, its jsut damn difficult (and they probably can't innovate it, just copy it., probably related to some obscure AM cloning method or something.) but its probably only a small percent of anything.

My guess is that each chapter probably has fuckload huge amounts of excess/stored up geneseed for emergenices. The Imperium supposedly does as well (Chapters are supposed to provide a small percentage for testing, IIRC. And given the various "foundings' they've tried after the fact, that seems to support the idea that they have lots of excess to fuck around with in some cases.)

That's about the only real way they COULD get by with the massive losses I've seen (and the loss of geneseed in some cases) without Space Marines having gone extinct at all.

My understanding is that Scouts are 'junior' Space Marines, so even heavy Scout casualties would fuck a chapter in the long term.

Scouts make up the tenth company in most Chapters, and their recruits become the new "battle brothers" when the Chapter's strength falls below max (supposedly) so yeah, it could if that's all the recruits they have.

I figure each Chapter has to be constantly testing and recruiting initiates and preparing them for long periods of time for 'potential" future upgrade into full Space Marine status. The pool of Scouts and "potential scout/Marines' is probably VASTLY larger than the "active" servicec.

On the other hand, I still suspect that there are alot more chapters than 1000 (and that a good manyn chapters probably have more than 1000 troops.) I figure you'd need at least 2 or 3 million space marines total to do what they do. That doesnt even include techmarines or the fleet (multiple space marines per ship? 2-3 battle barges per chapter and 5-10 strike cruisers, plus however manyy escorts? Hell we KNOW the Ultamarines, who are as Codex orthodox as any other Chapter, have 5 Battle barges and at LEAST 10 Strike cruisers!)

For example. Lets assume on average about 100 space marines (one company) get deployed for each given fight. This seems conservative given some of the fights I've noticed (usually you can expect a company for most major wars.) In general there are probably "thousands" of wars in the galaxy at any one time. That's many hundreds of thousands of Space Marines right there.

You can infer at least another couple hundred thousand or so for the fleets (Techmarines especially.)

On top of that, there are around 2-3 reserve companies per chapter that aren't "Active" at any one time (another couple hundred thousand.)

This doesn't include all other space marines for other functions (usually at squad level, ,like in Angels of Darkness.) - garrisoning worlds of recruitment or territories, joining explorator fleets, boarding Space Hulks or handling smaller confrontations (Eldar raiders, for example, like in Nightbringer or AoD or Harlequin.)

And there are of course some squads who will be bound to be intransit to or from locations, patrolling space in SM ships, or whatnot (IIRC the Gothic Sector averaged 2-3 battle barges and 20-30 strike cruisers frequently!)

It also probably doesn't factor in "major" contributions like the Third armageddon war (twenty chapters involved there, some fully, others at least in a few squads or a few Companies.)

[Connor MacLeod]

However, you'd think the imperium might be able to skip around the whole geneseed thing and just duplicate the genetic material as they did with the Afriel Strain. Of course, this could result in yet more hilariously unlucky Space Marines (as the Afriel Strain is supernaturally unlucky, probably because they were genetically engineered).

I recall they tried methods to 'accelerate" space Marine production somehow, I think those might have been one of those foundings that turned otu bad, though.

Other than that... the Raven guard is the most immediate example (Corax had his Legion almost totally wiped out by the Traitor Marines at Istvaan V IIRC, and he used "forbidden" methods to rapid-grow new marines. Most of them were abominations.)

[Ford Prefect]

I recall they tried methods to 'accelerate" space Marine production somehow, I think those might have been one of those foundings that turned otu bad, though.

Other than that... the Raven guard is the most immediate example (Corax had his Legion almost totally wiped out by the Traitor Marines at Istvaan V IIRC, and he used "forbidden" methods to rapid-grow new marines. Most of them were abominations.)

Seriously, since the Emperor carked it, the Imperium has had some pretty poor attempts at genetic engineering. Apart from the unlucky Afriels, they've also ended up with a Chapter of Space Marines that are perpetually on fire. Which though awesome is just a might problematic.

[Connor MacLeod]

I recall they tried methods to 'accelerate" space Marine production somehow, I think those might have been one of those foundings that turned otu bad, though.

Other than that... the Raven guard is the most immediate example (Corax had his Legion almost totally wiped out by the Traitor Marines at Istvaan V IIRC, and he used "forbidden" methods to rapid-grow new marines. Most of them were abominations.)

Seriously, since the Emperor carked it, the Imperium has had some pretty poor attempts at genetic engineering. Apart from the unlucky Afriels, they've also ended up with a Chapter of Space Marines that are perpetually on fire. Which though awesome is just a might problematic.

Not neccesarily. They've had some success at genetic experimentation with normal humans (cloning is fairly common, and they've genetically engineered soldiers before - some are featured in the Last chancers novels) - its just space marines where its been problematic.

[Keevan_Colton]

When a new chapter is founded, geneseed from a particular source is selected (every chapter has to give a genetic tithe to the imperium) the organs are then grown and duplicated in hosts grown in vats for the purpose until they have enough to found the chapter. Usually this happens on Mars from what I've read, though I'd think most forge worlds would have the capacity. The fluff generally goes that once they've got the core of a new chapter founded, the nearest forge world gives them some ships, some weapons and kit and get packed off into the stars. Sometimes they'll get some of the older more advanced kit from the chapter that donated the geneseed for them.

[NecronLord]

The goofy and insane 'extreme range" stuff aside,

I like it. Mostly because my current army is guard-based, and they'd actually become that little more dangerous in a game where they could mass fire out beyond their normal maximum range.

I do have to admit I have a greater fondness/preference for the earlier edition stuff. (I have a plethora of useful tidbit calcs just showing how fucking sophisticated the Guard was portrayed bakc then - despite what some idiots say.) computerized medikits, comlinks with 100 km range and audio/visual capability, etc...

Hell they had grenade launchers that could fire grenades on an electromagnetic charge (railgun grgenades!)

The VEhicle stuff in partitcular ws neat. Not only did the Guard have antigrav vehicles explicitly (including the land speeder, no "Land's Speeder" crap.)

To be fair, the Imperial Army landspeeder was a death trap on a whole new level. Seriously. I'd be terrified if they put me on that thing...

They Had rhinos (though the Chimaera is IMHO a better design) they had the Rhino variants like the Predator. Basilisks could fire off two shots instead of one. Demolishers had insane recoil. VEhicles could have automated systems (autopilot, auto targeting) as well as targeters and sensors. They even had power fields available for the tanks (I liked that.. a nice defensive complenet to the Guard as mobile barriers.)
And the Chimaeras running on nuclear reactors or wood fuel

All in all it was more logically consistent in terms of tech - none of this "well the Guards have antigrav jetpacks and grav parachutes, but they don't have grav speeders or gravtanks anymore") or having automation/sensors on disposable remote stationary sentry drones (Tarantulas) but not on the tanks or other vehicles.

Hell, back in RT era, the Guard could use Land Raiders IIRC

It might interest you to take a look at the Horus Heresy art book. It has all sorts of neat stuff in there, including an explicit canon-isation of Rick Priestly's Grav-Attack Tank scratchbuild, there depictd as an Imperial Army Speeder.

[Ford Prefect]

Wasn't that grav-tank purple, or am I just being silly?

And seriously, some of the Imperial Army stuff was awesome. Like their hats. Oh God their hats.