Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice (Un-shrunken Spoilers Herein)

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General Soontir Fel
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Post by General Soontir Fel »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I fail to see how people continue to adore a group whose most famous member was accidentally killed by a blind guy. How badass can you possibly be?
People fangirl Aayla Secura, who does two things in the movies:
1) Ignite her lightsaber (AOTC),
2) Get shot multiple times in the back (ROTS).

Occam's razor does not apply to fandom. If it did, people would realize that Boba and Jango's armor suits are a practical design, not a status symbol of a mysterious ancient culture.

The two worst sins of the EU were both commited by the Dark Empire series. Forget minimalism--in a gripping enough story, it won't jump out at you. Forget character assassination--it can always be chalked up to one author's mistake, and things can continue with no trouble. But Dark Empire is unforgivable. I know they wanted to have Luke learn the Dark Side, and it was the only way to make it reasonable for him to do so, but....
1) They brought back Palpatine. Goes against the whole theme of ROTJ.
2) They brought back Boba Fett. In some ways, that's even worse, since while Palpatine's return and final death was used sensibly in the later EU, it was the return of Fett that became the root of Boba-wanking, Jango-wanking, bounty hunter-wanking and Mando-wanking that we see.
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Mange wrote:
General_Soontir_Fel wrote:Bob'ika (I'm serious, that's the name other Fett clones have for him... according to Traviss)
Bob'ika?! :shock: The list was bad enough as it was, but this? And they let an author make that kind of changes to a character created by the creator of Star Wars? Alright, now the EU is definitely dead. Hopefully the Clone Wars CG series and the upcoming live-action series will be worth it.

EDIT: I looked around, and heck, even TMcE seems to take issue with the portrayal of the Mandalorians in Sacrifice.
All I say is: Enough with this Mando crap already.
I'd say Traviss is the only major problem with SW EU right now. The other authors, even Allston and Denning, who're writing Legacy of the Force with her, ignore her Mando stuff.

Traviss put in Mandalorians, and didn't have the plotline lead anywhere. That's my biggest gripe--I keep thinking, "what's the point of Boba Fett being there?" There isn't any.
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"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
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Post by Galvatron »

All this talk about Karen Traviss is giving me a major hard-on.
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Post by General Soontir Fel »

Galvatron wrote:All this talk about Karen Traviss is giving me a major hard-on.
Do a Google image search on her. It'll help. :wink: :lol:
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

On sort of a sidenote, do you think the company would allow Allston or Denning to kill off Fett in one of the books? I know Traviss would raise bloody hell, but it would be very difficult to get around a definitive death in print; she'd have to resort to some bullshit like it 'only being a clone of Boba' or the like.

The "Darth Caedus" name sounds weird. Anyone whose more knowledgeable on the EU can correct me, but I though the Sith surname, at least Out of Universe, is at least somewhat supposed to hint at their nature. Hence Darth "Sidious", which seems to hint at his penchant and insidious plotting; "Maul", a fighter; "Tyranis", the tyrannical leader of the Separatists in the Clone Wars. I guess "Lumiya" would be an exception, but still .. .
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Post by Archon »

Wookiepedia, Jacen Solo article wrote:Caedus is an invention based on the Latin verb cædo, cædere (the noun form of which is cæsum, not cædus) which means to kill, to murder, or to sacrifice: which accurately describe Jacen's increasingly violent tactics towards civilians and his murder of his own loved ones.
Link to article.

Not that I like the name or anything, but that is the explanation.
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Post by Mange »

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:
Mange wrote:
General_Soontir_Fel wrote:Bob'ika (I'm serious, that's the name other Fett clones have for him... according to Traviss)
Bob'ika?! :shock: The list was bad enough as it was, but this? And they let an author make that kind of changes to a character created by the creator of Star Wars? Alright, now the EU is definitely dead. Hopefully the Clone Wars CG series and the upcoming live-action series will be worth it.

EDIT: I looked around, and heck, even TMcE seems to take issue with the portrayal of the Mandalorians in Sacrifice.
All I say is: Enough with this Mando crap already.
I'd say Traviss is the only major problem with SW EU right now. The other authors, even Allston and Denning, who're writing Legacy of the Force with her, ignore her Mando stuff.

Traviss put in Mandalorians, and didn't have the plotline lead anywhere. That's my biggest gripe--I keep thinking, "what's the point of Boba Fett being there?" There isn't any.
I haven't bought any of the novels in this series, but the other authors completely ignore her Mandalorian stuff? That's certainly interesting.
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Post by General Soontir Fel »

Mange wrote:I haven't bought any of the novels in this series, but the other authors completely ignore her Mandalorian stuff? That's certainly interesting.
Not just interesting, it shows what a two-bit hack Traviss really is. She has no respect among her fellow authors. EU authors use each other's characters and concepts frequently--especially Zahn's and Stackpole's. But no one else used a single character created by KT, no one else put a single word of Man'doa in his novel, no one else used the Mandalorian culture she created.

Can't she see that her co-authors are laughing behind her back?
Jesse Helms died on the 4th of July and the nation celebrated with fireworks, BBQs and a day off for everyone. -- Ed Brayton, Dispatches from the Culture Wars

"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
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Post by Anguirus »

People fangirl Aayla Secura, who does two things in the movies:
1) Ignite her lightsaber (AOTC),
2) Get shot multiple times in the back (ROTS).
To be fair, this reverses cause and effect. Aayla Secura was a comics character that Lucas liked enough to throw into the movies. It's essentially a complete reversal of the Boba Fett phenomenon. No doubt the movies increased her popularity, but she's not being admired for her movie scenes: she's admired because a) she's a hot alien and geeks love that, and b) she plays a prominent role in years of Dark Horse material.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The problem with Traviss' work is that it changed so drastically after "Hard Contact" at least in mannerisms and such. I can't say why, but part of it probably has to do with the fan interactions she had (or "talifan" interactions, such as it were.)

When Hard Contact first came out, people praised it, and it was (and still is) an enjoyable read. Much of the plot is highly relevant and interesting - it attempted to humanize the clone troopers who were (in the second movie) represented by the Kaminoans as little more than cannon fodder. It was something done better IMHO, than the novel "Cestus Deceeption" did (same concept, though different methods.) The Commandos were a bit "over-the-top", but not drastically so, and given the scope of the threat (their major opposition were a buncha mercs and 100 or so battle droids. And one Mandalorian.) that wasn't insane.

The most important thing is that there was no overbearing Mandalorian influence, or Mandalorian wank, or anything like that. The Clone troopers were still GAR clones, first and foremost. THe Mandalorian bit formed a bit of background colour, but that's all. And she wrote the Mandalorian villian quite well, he wasn't wanked out in the least.

But between the time of "Hard Contact" and her Next novel, something (or some things) drastic changed. Again, I don't know what. She clashed with fans over the ridiculous "3 million clone army" figure, ,and for some reason she seemed to go off the deep end. I have no idea where the Mandalorian wank came in.

Triple Zero (I believe) rolls around, and this time around, its a vastly different novel. Traviss not-so-subtly has starrted using her writing platform to justify her own views and ends (writers do this of course, but this becomes rather more and more petty, as we see with Odds) Inconsistencies start to creep in (the commonality of Verpine shatter guns and their effectiveness being one of the big things.) The Mandalorian wank becomes more heavy-handed (but nto as bad as it gets in the LOTF era, yet.) The Clone Characters in the books seem to have ditched their "Clone" identities for a greater emphasis on the "We're Mandalorian uber-warriors' stuff. The whole plotline with them tracking down and eliminating the terrorists (indeed, the entire, not-so-subtle "9/11" connection being shoved down our throats) is the genesis of the later "Mando Wank" we see later. Hell, that Skirata guy, who I kinda liked in the first book, becomes some sort of uber father/warrior/assassin Mary Sue figure - there's NOTHING He can't do.

Also, for unfathomable reasons, we start to see this huge "Mandalorian family values" subtext that hs been so prominent in her novels creeping up. That little soap opera between the commando and the Jedi being big on it (oh yes, and we start to see her "I hate Jedi spoonbenders" idea.) She's basically taken the whole "Jango/Boba" fett relationship and played it out as a fundamental Mandalorian Cultural concept (apparently the sole, fundamental keystone to all they do, from what I gather of her writing.) Again, I never understood why she has vehemently pursued this concept in her writing, or why she keeps hitting readers over the head with it.

By the time of 'Bloodlines", all the aforementioned problems have become firmly entrenched. Mandalorians are superhuman warrior elite/working parent hybrids with a strong family ethic that is the apparent secret of their uber-ness. Boba Fett gets crammed into a self-serving (serving Traviss) plotline that takes up a substantial portion of the book (as well as the rest of the Mando-wank) but has little relevance to the overall plotline. It's really just an extension of the stuff in Triple Zero with Boba Fett thrown in.

And then there's the manner in which Boba Fett is written. Sorry, but I have never seen Fett as a family man. It kinda breaks with the OT-EU era portrayal (I loved KW Jeter's Boba fett novels. Fett was best when he remained a bigger mystery - one of the major annoying points about Ep2, in fact.) But now you have Traviss twisting Boba Fett to now match her self-proclaimed Mandalorian ideal (We have this "I have a daughter" plotline spring out of nowhere, basically, because Mandalorians consider family to be a big thing, and since Boba Fett is the big Mando, he needs to have a family out there.) The inconsistencies and details she ignores with regards to other writers become more prominent as well, ,as does her anti-Jedi attitude.

It's probably why I won't be bothering picking up her book, because now I've learned my lesson. I couldn't finish either Triple Zero OR Bloodlines (first time I've ever Not been able to finish a SW novel - I even managed to read Crystal STar, Children of the jedi, and KJA's stuff through to completion.) I will simply expect more of the same, and I have better uses for my money or time. (Mainly 40K :P)

When it gets to the point when your own fans start thinking the Mandalorian/Boba Fett obsession is getting to be too much, you know the writer has gone too far.
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

Meh. I always thought that the best part about Boba Fett's return was that it showed how bad-ass Dengar was.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Meh. I always thought that the best part about Boba Fett's return was that it showed how bad-ass Dengar was.
You mean Dark Empire? In DE Boba Fett was a huge joke. So was Dengar. I mean he was badass standing up to the Empire, but he got his ass kicked by Chewbacca when Chewie ripped off his helmet and activated his backpack (and banged his head on the ceiling.)

And then there was the bit where he followed them to Byss (and promptly crashed into the planetary shield.)

He wasn't the "hardcore, badass uber-bounty hunter supercommando" Traviss makes him out to be there.
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Fett's family

Post by QuentinGeorge »

For the record, the Knights of the Republic comic series has used a little Mand'oa.


...since Boba Fett is the big Mando, he needs to have a family out there.

To be fair, it was Abel G Pena's "History of the Mandalorians" that established Boba's wife and daughter. (Canonising a issue of Star Wars Tales named "Outbid, not Outgunned"

However....

....it also established that Fett had abandoned said wife and daughter, and that said daughter wanted to kill him. The granddaughter was introduced in Bloodlines.

So, pre-LOTF, Fett's characterisation was pretty fairly anti-family (considering the only one he had he rather calluously abandoned).

I can't swallow quite the "Mandalorians are big on family" thing though, really, let's have a look at their leaders:

Mandalore the Indomitable: No wife or children seen
Mandalore the Ultimate: No wife or children seen
Canderous Ordo: No wife or children seen, in fact, Ordo boasts about having killed women and children
Ung Kusp: No wife or children seen
Jaster Mereel: No wife, no natural children, adopted Jango
Jango Fett: No wife, only one female relationship, no natural children
Fenn Shysa: No wife or children, I'm rather suspicious of his close relationship with Tobbi Dala, but Shysa does flirt with Leia, so I guess he's straight.
Boba Fett: One wife and child, abandoned at a young age, deadbeat dad chased by a homicidal daughter.

So however much the Mandalorians are fans of family values, they hardly seem to care if their own leaders follow it.
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Post by Mange »

Connor MacLeod wrote:The problem with Traviss' work is that it changed so drastically after "Hard Contact" at least in mannerisms and such. I can't say why, but part of it probably has to do with the fan interactions she had (or "talifan" interactions, such as it were.)
[snip]
A truly excellent analysis! "Hard Contact" was, in my opinion, the best EU novel released in 2004/2005, but then things went downhill fast.
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Battlehymn Republic wrote:Meh. I always thought that the best part about Boba Fett's return was that it showed how bad-ass Dengar was.
No, I meant Dengar's story in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters anthology, which also was where he first rescued Boba from the sarlaac pit.
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