Dr. Who Ep. 2910: Blink [Spoilers]

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-12 04:23am

I'd just assumed for the angels stopping in the light, that someone was glancing at them on the TARDIS monitor. One wonders if they'd not have simply stopped when they tried to enter the TARDIS. It has an awareness, after all...

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-12 05:57am

NecronLord wrote:I'd just assumed for the angels stopping in the light, that someone was glancing at them on the TARDIS monitor. One wonders if they'd not have simply stopped when they tried to enter the TARDIS. It has an awareness, after all...

The TARDIS seemed to be running on autopilot with Ms. Sparrow and her friend too busy putting the DVD disk into the control console to look at the TARDIS monitor, although I wonder if ordinary CCTV could stop the Weeping Angels either.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-12 07:14am

Only has to glance at it. If anything, the monitor's the most immediately recognisable part of the controls. And as I understand it, watching them in a recording should do it, but my understanding of quantum physics is minimal. Quantum physics doesn't apply to the macroscale, after all, and I'm not sure if setting up a measuring device for a particle but never actually observing the results would affect its state according to quantum theory.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2007-06-12 02:50pm

Minitors and CCTV's aren't living beings, hence unless their is someone actually watching at the time it shouldn'tt affect them, otherwise as has been mentioned they could not possible travel through London withuot being frozen by the multitude of cameras.

Moffet clearly intended for the viewers to count hence why they were frozen when the camera was on them but could move when obscured.
As I said, in the house after cathy was taken, an angel was directly behind Sally but couldn't move because of us seeing it. When Sally obsures the view briefly it can move.

Moffet was clearly trying to be clever by using this but I have absolutely no idea how its supposed to to have worked in universe, where we don't exist.

Yuri2356 · Post by **Yuri2356** » 2007-06-12 03:04pm

Lost Soal wrote:Moffet was clearly trying to be clever by using this but I have absolutely no idea how its supposed to to have worked in universe, where we don't exist.

Maybe something outside happened to be looking at it as well? (That scene was in one of the open rooms, right?) That's the only excuse I can think of.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-06-12 03:58pm

NecronLord wrote:Only has to glance at it. If anything, the monitor's the most immediately recognisable part of the controls. And as I understand it, watching them in a recording should do it, but my understanding of quantum physics is minimal. Quantum physics doesn't apply to the macroscale, after all, and I'm not sure if setting up a measuring device for a particle but never actually observing the results would affect its state according to quantum theory.

This is based on a discredited philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics, the 'conscious observer induced collapse' paradigm. There was a mini-boom of written sci-fi based on this in the mid-90s; the only really good one I saw was Egan's 'Quarantine'. It tied right into the quantum-consciousness fad that was going on in popular cogsci (no thanks to Penrose, prime example of a talented but egomanic scientist trying to go beyond their area of expertise and producing bullshit philosophy). But later experimental evidence demonstrated that collapse is based on duration and complexity of the entangled system, no magic dualist 'consciousness is special' nonsense required.

I assume from the fact that they perch in high places and have wings that they do actually fly, but I am unclear how that works, as presumably if they get seen doing it they fall out of the sky and shatter.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-12 06:35pm

I'm not convinced CCTV or even the TARDIS monitor could freeze the Angels - Sparrow saw all of the Angels through the fading TARDIS walls and thats perhaps what permanently froze them and maybe we saw a Angel immobilised behind Sparrow because a passing bird, rodent or pedestrian briefly saw it. And I doubt in their frozen form they are made from stone; it merely looks like stone (otherwise they would've been rendered extinct by sledgehammers), they are perhaps non-humanoid (with the Angel statute a disguise; on other planets or even in other countries their stone form would presumably reflect local culture) and they could easily avoid living gaze mid-flight (they could perhaps only be reliably seen when creeping across the ground and observed by sentient eyes).

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 08:14pm

The disparity of speed is odd. They can cross a London street in the brief moment nobody is looking, but to cross a room in the flickering of a light takes them longer than it would take ME. Perhaps they're sluggish if exposed to frequent stop-go-stop-go phenomena? Maybe some of them are just lazybones?

Hey Orange, it'd be pretty funny if you touched them and you got killed hey? Break THIS with a sledgehammer, in 1969! LOL

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-06-12 08:48pm

Starglider wrote:
This is based on a discredited philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics, the 'conscious observer induced collapse' paradigm. There was a mini-boom of written sci-fi based on this in the mid-90s; the only really good one I saw was Egan's 'Quarantine'. It tied right into the quantum-consciousness fad that was going on in popular cogsci (no thanks to Penrose, prime example of a talented but egomanic scientist trying to go beyond their area of expertise and producing bullshit philosophy). But later experimental evidence demonstrated that collapse is based on duration and complexity of the entangled system, no magic dualist 'consciousness is special' nonsense required.

I assume from the fact that they perch in high places and have wings that they do actually fly, but I am unclear how that works, as presumably if they get seen doing it they fall out of the sky and shatter.

Ugh, Penrose. Ever seen him on Hard Talk discussing robots with human traits? It was funny watching him essentially go round in circles as the presenter laid a Paxman like assault on his thinking.

Stark wrote:The disparity of speed is odd. They can cross a London street in the brief moment nobody is looking, but to cross a room in the flickering of a light takes them longer than it would take ME. Perhaps they're sluggish if exposed to frequent stop-go-stop-go phenomena? Maybe some of them are just lazybones?

Hey Orange, it'd be pretty funny if you touched them and you got killed hey? Break THIS with a sledgehammer, in 1969! LOL

He just has to wait a few decades before going back to where he was. Now he's just double his chances of a kill.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 08:58pm

I still think anyone sent to 1969 could simply destroy the universe as revenge. I would - I'd jump on a plane to NZ in 1984 and kill myself as a lad. Eat my potential energy now, wankers - OH NO THE UNIVERSE IS GONE WHAT ARE THOSE DEMON THINGS.

Bastard porting bastards.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-06-12 09:03pm

Stark wrote:I still think anyone sent to 1969 could simply destroy the universe as revenge. I would - I'd jump on a plane to NZ in 1984 and kill myself as a lad. Eat my potential energy now, wankers - OH NO THE UNIVERSE IS GONE WHAT ARE THOSE DEMON THINGS.

Bastard porting bastards.

No, no, you're doing it wrong.

You keep rushing the Angels when they sent you to 1969, thereby increasing your number exponentially until you have billions of Starks on the planet since they all started overlapping their timelines.

You then conquer the universe.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-06-12 09:04pm

Stark wrote:I still think anyone sent to 1969 could simply destroy the universe as revenge. I would - I'd jump on a plane to NZ in 1984 and kill myself as a lad. Eat my potential energy now, wankers - OH NO THE UNIVERSE IS GONE WHAT ARE THOSE DEMON THINGS.

OTOH if you happened to have a copy of Gray's Sports Almanac on your person, you could have a rich and idolent lifestyle that might not be such a bad deal.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 09:05pm

Well that's also true: if you do it again, there will be original you and you+30 years you as well. Your life expectancy would cap any vast army, but you could sure destroy the universe through First Law violations pretty trivially.

Good episode, best not to think about it too much though. They're really really fast see, except, sometimes, like when they're trying to kill you. And they turn to stone when you look... and sometimes when you don't.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 09:07pm

Starglider wrote:OTOH if you happened to have a copy of Gray's Sports Almanac on your person, you could have a rich and idolent lifestyle that might not be such a bad deal.

That's still a paradox, still a First Law violation, still destroy the universe. Unless the Angels have Time Lord-like resistance to causality, which doesn't seem likely as the Doctor told old lad not to do anything until after.

Then again, I'm a big fan of not taking what the Doctor said at face value. For instance, perhaps there was no risk of First Law violations, BUT him talking to Sally or himself would change events, and the Doctor's plan might be ruined by the new chain of events that takes precedence?

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-06-12 09:13pm

Stark wrote:
Starglider wrote:OTOH if you happened to have a copy of Gray's Sports Almanac on your person, you could have a rich and idolent lifestyle that might not be such a bad deal.
That's still a paradox, still a First Law violation, still destroy the universe.

I don't see why. The people who get sent back obviously change the past in some way, marrying people, having kids who wouldn't otherwise have existed, impacting the economy etc. There's no obvious reason why making yourself a millionaire with some 'lucky' bets is any more disruptive than living a normal life.

Then again, I'm a big fan of not taking what the Doctor said at face value. For instance, perhaps there was no risk of First Law violations, BUT him talking to Sally or himself would change events, and the Doctor's plan might be ruined by the new chain of events that takes precedence?

Realistic time travel is really, really hard to get right. You can't reasonably expect that from DW, only the best novelists manage it and they have much more scope for exposition. I'm just glad that there was actually some sort of temporal mechanics and some in-episode time travel for once, as opposed to it being a sci-fi variety show with a boxy blue continuity device.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 09:17pm

It's a Temporal Taxi.

Direct interference in your own past seems to be the big problem with causality in DW, and even then only under certain circumstances. Obviously killing yourself as a child would cause a paradox (cue Father's Day), but I'd expect making your younger self rich would completely change your life, so it would also cause such a paradox. Other changes (unavoidable historical changes every time the Doctor eats an apple, for instance) seem far less significant.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-06-12 09:23pm

Stark wrote:but I'd expect making your younger self rich would completely change your life, so it would also cause such a paradox.

I meant just making your sent-back-in-time self rich, not contacting your younger self (who may not even exist, the first girl went back to 1910). Even a reasonable knowledge of history is enough to make decent money out of the stock market over the long term, but that does require some starting capital. Bringing forward minor inventions is probably ok too, though any major scientific or technical revelations are likely timeline-trashers.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-12 09:24pm

Oh I see. Well in DW terms that would probably be fine then, since your 'causality footprint' seems to be quite low.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-13 06:46am

Starglider wrote:This is based on a discredited philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics, the 'conscious observer induced collapse' paradigm. There was a mini-boom of written sci-fi based on this in the mid-90s; the only really good one I saw was Egan's 'Quarantine'. It tied right into the quantum-consciousness fad that was going on in popular cogsci (no thanks to Penrose, prime example of a talented but egomanic scientist trying to go beyond their area of expertise and producing bullshit philosophy). But later experimental evidence demonstrated that collapse is based on duration and complexity of the entangled system, no magic dualist 'consciousness is special' nonsense required.

As I said, my knowledge of Quantum Physics is minimal at best, and I have no real intention of learning more in the predictable future. Of course, what rules Dr Who 'Quantum Lock' follows are entirely technobabble, and contrary to real quantum physics, too. I'm still blaming the TARDIS for their freezing in the light-swinging scene though.

I assume from the fact that they perch in high places and have wings that they do actually fly, but I am unclear how that works, as presumably if they get seen doing it they fall out of the sky and shatter.

I would imagine that they're some kind of physical being with wings when unobserved, so, yes, if someone looked up at the right instant, wham.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-13 08:05am

Starglider wrote: I meant just making your sent-back-in-time self rich, not contacting your younger self (who may not even exist, the first girl went back to 1910).

She went back to 1920.

NecronLord wrote: I would imagine that they're some kind of physical being with wings when unobserved, so, yes, if someone looked up at the right instant, wham.

They're physical beings but do you think they have wings? And turning into real brittle stone that is easily smashed apart would not make them so tough after all (they're "quantum locked"; something more subtle than just turning into stone).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-13 10:16am

Big Orange wrote:They're physical beings but do you think they have wings?

Given that their expressions alter, it seems likely that their forms as statues resemble their 'unlocked' forms to some degree.

And turning into real brittle stone that is easily smashed apart would not make them so tough after all (they're "quantum locked"; something more subtle than just turning into stone).

Big Orange, what was your final grade when you graduated from the Academy of Gallifrey, again?

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-16 08:23pm

NecronLord wrote: Big Orange, what was your final grade when you graduated from the Academy of Gallifrey, again?

Omega!

But even a dunce like would recognise that Weeping Angels would be manageable if you lured them to a tool shed or DIY store...

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-06-16 08:26pm

Which is why they've been around for so long, because they're easy to destroy! Oh wait. I hear if they touch you, you go back in time. Hmm... hitting them with things... I wonder what would happen...

Nah, it's really that Orange knows how totally unexplained phenomena works and is smarter than everyone else. Sorry guys, 'quantum locked' is basically meaningless and the situation is obviously quite complex. LOL SMASH THEM, it's that easy to defeat them lol! Or trick them into being frozen in an unbalanced position, thus falling down and smashing! I AM SO SMART.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-06-19 06:51am

Plekhanov wrote: What 'fresh' ideas has Cornell come up with so far?

He was only responsible for the truly excellent "Father's Day" one of the better Doctor Who stand alone episodes and most recently he came up with arguably the best two parter ever, so he would be a viable choice to take over from RTD after the fourth season. However don't get me wrong, Moffat is another wise choice to choose as head writer and his Jekyll series seems very promising (a lot more promising than Torchwood though).

Stark wrote:Which is why they've been around for so long, because they're easy to destroy! Oh wait. I hear if they touch you, you go back in time. Hmm... hitting them with things... I wonder what would happen...

Nah, it's really that Orange knows how totally unexplained phenomena works and is smarter than everyone else. Sorry guys, 'quantum locked' is basically meaningless and the situation is obviously quite complex. LOL SMASH THEM, it's that easy to defeat them lol! Or trick them into being frozen in an unbalanced position, thus falling down and smashing! I AM SO SMART.

So the "stone" statues are perhaps indestructible after all and you cannot do a thing against them when they're moving at split-second super speeds (unless you somehow catch them in your sights) and Ms. Sparrow should be following the "script" anyway, in linking the set events together and leading the Weeping Angels into a trap.