Vong Ground Combat Question

[Imperial Overlord]

What exactly would the Vong have done if they had been faced with massive deployment of incendiaries and chemical weapons?

They biowanked their way out with crappy writing unless it was a Stover book. If Stover then they'll do what we know they'd do in such a situation: die.

As a side note, didn't almost all the surviving Vong fit onto one planet? Even that was merely 5% of their pre-invasion population that's extremely minimalistic.

[Darth Culator]

Why even bother talking about the Vong?

Meat-ships and puke-guns can't beat a 25,000-year-old technological civilization. Period.

They deliberately threw realism out the window to favor their biowank, so anything we discuss that's based in reality is obliterated by handwavium and unobtanium.

[VT-16]

Having never read the NJO books and only glanced at the SW Tales YV War story with Kyle Katarn (when even Katarn's involvement can't move me, you know the franchise took a wrong turn), I have to ask, how big and devastating was this war anyway?

The way it's depicted in Wookieepedia, it beat out the GCW which was on-going throughout the Galaxy for 20+ years and the CW which covered just about every civilized world throughout its 3-year span. The force-composition of the YV society just doesn't add up to a great conflict that would go on for so long and have so great consequences. Even the Legacy comics talk about it like some big thing, even more than the CW (not mentioned at all, IIRC) or the GCW.

The equipment used and the weaponry involved does not compute with mass-devastation and big defeats. Did the YV just tear ass in one direction through to Coruscant and then just wing it?

[QuentinGeorge]

It was about five years long, so a little longer than the Clone Wars, but only a quarter of the length of the Civil War.

In terms of scope, the Vong thrust did take into account a large portion of the galaxy as the Vong targeted the Core.

The high casualties comes mainly from the fact that the Vong, unlike the Republic, CIS, Empire or Rebels, were total religious fanatics and thought nothing of sending waves and waves of their own men to death for rather pointless "victories".

(They must have invaded with a heck of a lot of manpower since, remember, unlike the aforementioned groups, the Vong couldn't count on reinforcements).

Plus, the New Republic seems to have fought the war rather abominably (and explains why Nom Anor was sent to euthanise the Empire before the Vong invasion).

So, the high casualties can be attributed to stupidity. Religious stupidity for the Vong, and just general stupidity for the New Republic.

The death toll was 365 trillion but, since we have no comparable figures for the Clone Wars nor Galactic Civil War, that doesn't mean much.

[Noble Ire]

The equipment used and the weaponry involved does not compute with mass-devastation and big defeats. Did the YV just tear ass in one direction through to Coruscant and then just wing it?

Pretty much. The first phase of the war was essentially a massive spree of world destruction (via biological weaponry and their equivelant of mass-drivers), droid hunting, and mass enslaving, coupled with political mechanations that took advantage of the instability of the NR. As the Senate squabbled over what to do about the invaders and the Jedi were weakened by Vong offers of amnesty in return for Force-using prisoners, the Vong armada marched coreward, taking time to harrass some NR worlds on the Outer Rim, but otherwise focusing on cutting off the Core and taking Coruscant. After they did that, they were pretty aimless, and spread themselves thin with forays into the Imperial Remnant and Chiss Space, and eventually were unable to cope with the newly formed and vastly more competant Galactic Alliance (which, it is noted, was simply capable of out-producing the Vong).

The 365 trillion figure would seem to indicate that the toll was quite high, although, as QuentinGeorge notes, we have no way of comparing it to any other major conflict. Nevertheless, the war was notable for claiming far more high-profile victims than the Clone Wars seems to have done. By the end of the war, Hutt Space as a political entity was eliminated, and Coruscant, Ord Mantell, Duro, Ithor, Muunilist, N'zoth, and many other worlds were depopulated or destroyed; the only really prominent world I can recall being destroyed in such a way during the Clone Wars is Humbarine.

[VT-16]

Plus, the New Republic seems to have fought the war rather abominably (and explains why Nom Anor was sent to euthanise the Empire before the Vong invasion).

That's true, I keep hearing about the NR bungling its response and basically necessitating a total change of leadership and political procedures.

Him and the other infiltrators weakening parts of Imperial/New Republic administration is one of the better ideas of the whole invasion arc.

The war might not have been such a tremendous event if they had organized a better defense. Weren't there even a lot of political wheeling and dealing throughout the war? Like some higher ups hardly took the Vong seriously.

[Lord Pounder]

I don't think ATAT's really fit with the NR's idealology, they had enough apprehension using Star Destroyers.

Tell that to the Death Star plans they decided to keep on file.

Death Star plans they never ever used despite getting their asses handed to them by the Vong.

[PainRack]

Having never read the NJO books and only glanced at the SW Tales YV War story with Kyle Katarn (when even Katarn's involvement can't move me, you know the franchise took a wrong turn), I have to ask, how big and devastating was this war anyway?

The way it's depicted in Wookieepedia, it beat out the GCW which was on-going throughout the Galaxy for 20+ years and the CW which covered just about every civilized world throughout its 3-year span. The force-composition of the YV society just doesn't add up to a great conflict that would go on for so long and have so great consequences. Even the Legacy comics talk about it like some big thing, even more than the CW (not mentioned at all, IIRC) or the GCW.

The equipment used and the weaponry involved does not compute with mass-devastation and big defeats. Did the YV just tear ass in one direction through to Coruscant and then just wing it?

As mentioned, it seems more that the popular perception is aided more by the vast destruction the Yuzhan Vong purposely sown throughout the galaxy, along with genocide. As bad as the two previous wars were, genocide and outright targeted planetary destruction was relatively rare, and the important players were left relatively intact.

That's true, I keep hearing about the NR bungling its response and basically necessitating a total change of leadership and political procedures.

Him and the other infiltrators weakening parts of Imperial/New Republic administration is one of the better ideas of the whole invasion arc.

The war might not have been such a tremendous event if they had organized a better defense. Weren't there even a lot of political wheeling and dealing throughout the war? Like some higher ups hardly took the Vong seriously.

I tend to disagree that the NR outright "blundered" its way..... It seems to me that the NR military was in its growing pains. Having finally standardised its military doctrine and equipment, as well as setting in place a system of command & control, with officer academies and the like, the older command officers left office, letting the new ones take over.

Such a military would has been relatively hollowed out in experience, with a new equipment and doctrine. The academies that were set in place would also have faced a syllabus revamp, moving away from insurgency and combat skills and introducing logistics, command and other doctrinal issues neglected during the civil war.

Faced with political and stragetic problems, the NR couldn't mobilise its strength sufficiently to take on the Yuzhan Vong, until Coruscant fell. This when combined with political issues such as Borsk initial cover-up of the invasion, the initial decision to not attack but rather negotiate(brought about by the weakness of the NR military?) explains the perception.

[(name here)]

I think that what made it really stupid was the fact that the NR/GA made a couple of weapons and doctrine shifts, and then they tore huge holes in battle fleets with three star destroyers. Couldn't the Vong have canceled out most of the upgrades with just doctrine shifts? Splinter fire would be really obvious because of the sheer volume of fire, jammers could be countered by fighting as individuals, and jamming enemy frequencies, leaving them ahead because they had radio. Further stupidity lies in the fact that Vong technology had countless weak spots that made no sense. Why do black hole generators get tired so quickly when confronted with changing position, but can maintain acceleration for decades? Why does the crab armor have gills on the sides, instead of the back? Why are the gills exposed unprotected in the first place? How come the bugs move so slowly?

[Darth Fanboy]

In the New Essential Guide to Droids, a unit of B2 battle droids won against YV Firebreathers. Are those better or worse armored than YV themselves?

So CIS Hardware was used against the Vong with success eh? My opinion of the NEw Republic/GFFA has plummeted even further.

[VT-16]

So CIS Hardware was used against the Vong with success eh? My opinion of the NEw Republic/GFFA has plummeted even further.

Basically, yes.

My opinion declined when I heard their new Star Destroyer replacements were only produced at one ship per year.

I also like how the YV's biowank never seems to take into account how limited it is. Didn't they used glowing bugs for sensor blips? What happens if their screens get flooded? They run out of them? Same thing with their "burning rock" ammunition, those coralskippers seem so small, how can they fit so many rocks inside? And then there's this:

They refueled by consuming various materials, thus negating the need to return to specially-designated areas to restock.

But they still need to break off any attack to find these materials, if they run out of ammo.

[Gustav32Vasa]

So CIS Hardware was used against the Vong with success eh? My opinion of the NEw Republic/GFFA has plummeted even further.

Basically, yes.

My opinion declined when I heard their new Star Destroyer replacements were only produced at one ship per year.

I also like how the YV's biowank never seems to take into account how limited it is. Didn't they used glowing bugs for sensor blips? What happens if their screens get flooded? They run out of them?

Yes, that happened at Ebaq9.

Same thing with their "burning rock" ammunition, those coralskippers seem so small, how can they fit so many rocks inside? And then there's this:

They refueled by consuming various materials, thus negating the need to return to specially-designated areas to restock.

But they still need to break off any attack to find these materials, if they run out of ammo.

They go and eat some asteroids for restocking.

All ships need to break of if their ammo runs out.

[VT-16]

All ships need to break of if their ammo runs out.

I know that, but the way the articles are made, it sounds like the coralskippers are hot shit compared to regular SW vehicles, and they're not.

[Gustav32Vasa]

All ships need to break of if their ammo runs out.

I know that, but the way the articles are made, it sounds like the coralskippers are hot shit compared to regular SW vehicles, and they're not.

They're weaker then normal fighters but thanks to the yammosk all fighters work like one. When the Republic learned how to take out the yammosk, coralskippers didnt last long.

[VT-16]

Ah, I see. So basically it's the "our equipment seems superior but has a stupid weak spot" cliché.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Ah, I see. So basically it's the "our equipment seems superior but has a stupid weak spot" cliché.

Yes.

[QuentinGeorge]

the only really prominent world I can recall being destroyed in such a way during the Clone Wars is Humbarine.

Caamas, too.

Not to mention the other worlds Grievous apparently genocided in his little Core rampage.

But as stated above, there's good reason for the Vong War leading to more destroyed worlds. The Empire, Republic, Rebels and CIS were basically fighting over the galaxy - they each wanted to rule either pieces or the entire thing.

The Vong were religious fanatics who wanted to wipe the galaxy clean of its current inhabitants and culture and repopulate it, so they went to absurd lengths to kill people for the hell of it. Look what they did to Coruscant in the few years they controlled it, and compare that to the Sith, CIS, Rebel and Imperial assaults on the world.

Quite notably, this of course means they were always doomed to failure (extension of supply lines in a hostile galaxy would never work out, and if you are a genocidal maniac your enemies always unite against you).

[PainRack]

My opinion declined when I heard their new Star Destroyer replacements were only produced at one ship per year.

I also like how the YV's biowank never seems to take into account how limited it is. Didn't they used glowing bugs for sensor blips? What happens if their screens get flooded? They run out of them? Same thing with their "burning rock" ammunition, those coralskippers seem so small, how can they fit so many rocks inside? And then there's this:

Oh it gets worse... They rely on SOUND for information.SOUND. What happens if the bug gets tired? What happens to ambient and noise from battle?

Now, sound to improve SA as seen in the MF turrets and so on is one thing, but relying on sound to tell you how badly damaged an enemy vessel is? WTF?

All ships need to break of if their ammo runs out.

I know that, but the way the articles are made, it sounds like the coralskippers are hot shit compared to regular SW vehicles, and they're not.

They're weaker then normal fighters but thanks to the yammosk all fighters work like one. When the Republic learned how to take out the yammosk, coralskippers didnt last long.

God... That reminds me of another idiocy.

YV fighters are so well coordinated, that only the Jedi Mind Meld can "match" up against them...... Jedi commanding squadrons of units relying utterly on conventional communications and other C3 systems. So, ignoring pre-cog which the Jedi ability against the YV appears to be weakened(Jacen is the notable exception), they're relying utterly on conventional SYSTEMS. Why can't a normal datalink, using SW advanced AI and comns system suffice?

Jaina explictly makes clear that the Jedi aren't relying on Battle Coordination like C-boath or the OR Jedi. They're simply "linking" their minds together so that the Jedi can get a big picture of the battlefield, back up each other force abilities and mental status........ A single jedi at a computer would have sufficed.

[Shroom Man 777]

Man, the Yajuji Vajojo (I won't call them by their proper names) blow. I mean, even a deathless horde of biomonstrosities and killing machines can be done right. Look at the Tyrannids. Look at the Zerg. Hell, look at the Xenomorphs and the Arachnids from the SST (book, movie, animated series, whatever, any and all incarnations). They're all cool and mean and angry.

But the Yolonda Voomoos? Man, they suck.

[Ender]

Ah, I see. So basically it's the "our equipment seems superior but has a stupid weak spot" cliché.

More like "we don't believe in training our pilots". That was the flaw and one that was slowly corrected.

Its worth noting that the Vong could be a plausible threat with a few tweaks and if you really dig. EOV:C makes mention of a vong rifle used by troops. the stackpole books show that the Vong are just the officers, with Chazrach NCOs and thralls making up the line soldiers.

That idiotic traviss short story has the redeeming feature of making it clear that their armor is a form of power armor capable of shredding through armor grade metal to defend itself even if the wearer is dead. Connor and I have both posted here before noting that most of the weaponry is relativistic in nature which is a vast departure from previous tech that requires different countermeasures. Read through the descriptions on the biotech in the books and NEGWT carefully then compare it with what you get in cyberpunk books.

Its not that the Vong are that strong, so much as they are just that different. Hell, from Duros on the NR/GA only lost a handful of battles. The NR was just completely unprepared for what happened and those who were were so traditionally minded that they got their heads kicked in too fast to learn.

[Ender]

YV fighters are so well coordinated, that only the Jedi Mind Meld can "match" up against them...... Jedi commanding squadrons of units relying utterly on conventional communications and other C3 systems. So, ignoring pre-cog which the Jedi ability against the YV appears to be weakened(Jacen is the notable exception), they're relying utterly on conventional SYSTEMS. Why can't a normal datalink, using SW advanced AI and comns system suffice?

Jaina explictly makes clear that the Jedi aren't relying on Battle Coordination like C-boath or the OR Jedi. They're simply "linking" their minds together so that the Jedi can get a big picture of the battlefield, back up each other force abilities and mental status........ A single jedi at a computer would have sufficed.

It does and was used. The Vong didn't use jamming at all and didn't go after communication nodes until the last months. The NR/GA made extensive use of AI, droids, and remotes to kick their asses. The B2 droids were mentioned above, but also they used remotely piloted missiles and fighters to confound them. the Jaina book dark whatever is pretty lambasted, but it addresses a lot of points like this.

[(name here)]

Yeah, the Vong are a lame biotech group. But the seem better than ripusoffes zergus , also known as the kiliks. Belivible biotech enemies rely on huge numbers and bioweapons, much moreso than the vong. Said belivable enemies have rapid reproduction and/or endless reinforcements.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Yeah, the Vong are a lame biotech group. But the seem better than ripusoffes zergus , also known as the kiliks. Belivible biotech enemies rely on huge numbers and bioweapons, much moreso than the vong. Said belivable enemies have rapid reproduction and/or endless reinforcements.

See, I think Biotech is a really retarded idea, I've only seen one group of aliens pull it off decently (IMO) and that was the 'Nids, and not only decently but they make it rather cool.

[Connor MacLeod]

Basically, yes.

My opinion declined when I heard their new Star Destroyer replacements were only produced at one ship per year.

As I recall one of the yards atatcked in the Luceno novels (AGenst of Chaos 2 , I think.) - Fondor maybe, had 30 ISD sized vessels in construction (and it took the better part of a year, again IIRC.) and around a hundred or so other vessels in simultaneous building. Before the Vong attackeda t least)

Are you thinking of the Mediator BCs and the STar Defenders?

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, the Vong are a lame biotech group. But the seem better than ripusoffes zergus , also known as the kiliks. Belivible biotech enemies rely on huge numbers and bioweapons, much moreso than the vong. Said belivable enemies have rapid reproduction and/or endless reinforcements.

Er, in Dark nest? They had the whole "Alien hive mind" nonsense down, but they were actually using artificial constructions by and largge for ships (rather crappy ships of course, but still..) Hell they hollowed out multi-KM asteroids and outiftted them with smuggled tech (turbolasers and engines). Rather than using biowank.