Oil Shale

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
Crazy_Vasey
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1571
Joined: 2002-07-13 12:56pm

Oil Shale

Post by Crazy_Vasey »

Does anyone know anything about this new technique for extracting oil shale? I know that existing methods to extract oil shale and turn it into something usable aren't terribly viable, but what about this? The article seems to be fairly low on the details, and I'm not really up enough on the field to make much of a judgement anyway, but I was hoping that someone here would know more.

Anyway, as per the rules, I'll post the article here.

Oil shale — Colorado, Utah deposits rival OPEC reserve
By Joe Carroll
Bloomberg News
Colorado and Utah have as much oil as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Nigeria, Kuwait, Libya, Angola, Algeria, Indonesia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates combined.
Image
That's not science fiction. Trapped in limestone up to 200 feet thick in the two Rocky Mountain states is enough so-called shale oil to rival OPEC and supply the U.S. for a century.
Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp., the two biggest U.S. energy companies, and Royal Dutch Shell Plc are spending $100 million a year testing new methods to separate the oil from the stone for as little as $30 a barrel. A growing number of industry executives and analysts say new technology and persistently high prices make the idea feasible.
"The breakthrough is that now the oil companies have a way of getting this oil out of the ground without the massive energy and manpower costs that killed these projects in the 1970s," said Pete Stark, an analyst at IHS Inc., an Englewood, Colo., research firm. "All the shale rocks in the world are going to be revisited now to see how much oil they contain."
The U.S. imports two-thirds of its oil, spending $300 billion a year, or 40 percent of the record trade deficit. Every $10 increase in a barrel of crude costs an American household $700 a year, according to the Rand Corp., founded in 1946 to provide research for the U.S. military. Oil prices have risen 63 percent since 2004, and higher fuel costs have slowed growth in the world's largest economy to the lowest in four years.
The last effort to exploit the Colorado and Utah shale fields foundered in the 1980s after crude prices tumbled 72 percent, resulting in a multibillion-dollar loss for Exxon. Techniques developed to coax crude from tar sands in Alberta, 1,600 miles to the north, may help the U.S. projects' engineers.
"The potential for shale is large," said Joseph Stanislaw, senior energy adviser for Deloitte & Touche LLP and co-author with oil analyst Daniel Yergin of "The Commanding Heights: The Battle for the World Economy" (Simon & Schuster, 464 pages, $26). "Assuming the technology proves out, the size and scale of the reserves are significant."
Image
Energy providers are investing in shale oil production because the reserves are large enough to generate higher returns than smaller fields in Oklahoma and Texas, where output is declining after eight decades.
Shale is also a more attractive investment than new U.S. refineries, which Shell and Chevron say may lose money as rising use of crop-based fuels such as ethanol lowers domestic gasoline demand. Exxon says it isn't interested in building new fuel plants in the U.S. because the company expects North American fuel consumption to peak by 2025.
"You're going to build refineries where demand is increasing, and that's the developing world," Scott Nauman, Exxon's manager of economics and energy planning, said in a May 18 presentation at a University of Chicago oil conference.

Shell's project
In the high desert near Rifle, Colo., Shell engineers are burying hundreds of steel rods 2,000 feet underground that will heat the shale to 700 degrees Fahrenheit, a temperature at which Teflon melts.
The heat will be applied for the next four years to convert the hydrocarbons from dead plants and plankton, once part of a prehistoric lake, into high-quality crude that is equal parts jet fuel, diesel and naphtha, the main ingredient in gasoline.
Chevron, which helped build the Saudi Arabian energy industry when it struck oil in the kingdom in 1938, plans to shatter 200-foot thick layers of shale deep underground, said Robert Lestz, the company's oil-shale technology manager.
Rather than using heat to transform the shale into crude, Chevron plans to saturate the rubble with chemicals to convert it. The method will reduce power needs and production costs, Lestz said in a May 24 interview. Using chemical reactions to get oil from shale also means fewer byproducts such as ash and fewer greenhouse gases, he said.
Image
Chevron scientists are working with researchers at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico to determine which chemicals work best for converting shale to crude oil. Shell's heating technique amounts to "a brute-force approach," said Lestz, who is based in Houston.
Raytheon Co., the maker of Tomahawk missiles and the first microwave ovens, is developing a process that would use radio waves to cook the shale.
Exxon Mobil, based in Irving, Texas, plans to shoot particles of petroleum coke, a waste by-product of oil refining, into cracks in the shale. The coke will be electrically charged to create a subterranean hot plate that will cook the shale until it turns into crude. The company declined to discuss the progress of its oil shale tests.

'Oil is here'
"These are quite remarkable technological approaches," said Jeremy Boak, a geologist at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden, Colo., who spent 11 years cleaning up radioactive waste and disposing of weapons-grade plutonium at U.S. government sites. "The oil companies don't have the exploration problem of finding resources to drill. We know the oil is here. It's just a matter of getting it out."
U.S. oil shale deposits likely hold 1.5 trillion barrels of oil, according to Jack Dyni, a geologist emeritus at the U.S. Geological Survey. All 12 OPEC countries combined have proved crude oil reserves of about 911 billion barrels, led by Saudi Arabia, with 264.2 billion barrels, according to statistics compiled by BP Plc.
Skeptics of the potential for shale oil include Cathy Kay, an organizer for the environmental group Western Colorado Congress, who says the techniques will drain water supplies, scar the landscape and require so much power the skies will be choked with smoke from coal-fed generators.
"They are going to do absolutely massive environmental damage," said Kay, a South Africa native who's been spearheading the Grand Junction, Colo., group's anti-shale campaign since September.
"Why don't these companies invest these giant sums of money developing the cheapest, cleverest solar panel or geothermal process, instead of chasing this elusive oil?" Kay asked.
Shell, based in the Hague, estimates it can extract oil from Colorado shale for $30 a barrel, less than half the recent price of about $66 for benchmark New York futures.
Shell's process includes surrounding each shale field with an underground wall of ice. The so-called freeze walls are to prevent groundwater from swamping the heating rods and to protect the local water supply from contamination as the organic material in the rocks turns to oil, according to Terry O'Connor, the Shell vice president in charge of the company's Colorado shale project.

500,000 barrels
"There's a lot of testing to be done," O'Connor said in a May 24 interview. "We're proceeding cautiously."
O'Connor declined to say how much oil Shell expects it could produce from shale. Stark at IHS and other analysts said Shell expects to get 500,000 barrels a day from its project, 25 percent more than comes from Alaska's Prudhoe Bay, the largest U.S. oil field.
"This is an amazing resource," said James Bartis, an oil analyst at Rand, based in Santa Monica, Calif. Bartis says that success in the Rockies could cut crude prices by 5 percent, saving American consumers $20 billion a year.
"It's been raised before as a panacea for impending shortages, but never before has it been shown to be competitive with conventional oil," Bartis said.
Drillers, pipe-makers and metal fabricators such as Nabors Industries Ltd. and closely held UOP LLC will be the first to profit as Shell, Chevron and Exxon drill thousands of wells a half-mile underground by 2011.
The oil companies may begin pumping commercial quantities of oil from Colorado shale within a decade, about as long as Chevron will need to develop the 500 million-barrel Jack prospect in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico, according to Stark, who is a former Mobil Corp. geologist.
"Given the state of the oil market, more and more effort is being put into making shale a viable source," said Stanislaw. He estimated it will take six to eight years before oil companies perfect their extraction methods. "The timeframe is very long," he said.
In the 1970s, oil shale efforts involved mile-wide strip mines and factory-size cookers to boil giant limestone boulders. This time, no company expects to bring in front-loaders, heavy-duty dump trucks or thousands of miners to haul shale from open pits.
"The old technique required them to dig the equivalent of a new Panama Canal every month," said former Colorado Gov. Richard Lamm, whose tenure from 1975 to 1987 included the last attempt to extract oil from shale.

'More sane process'
"This new approach is a much more sane process, but that's all relative," Lamm said in an interview. "They're doing this in an immensely fragile area where wagon ruts from the Oregon Trail in the 1840s are still visible. It doesn't excite me because I think they're about to indelibly change our state."
Local residents are also leery, recalling the ghost towns and job losses left behind from the last shale boom and bust.
Battlement Mesa, Colo., a town Exxon built to house an expected 25,000 shale workers, was abandoned when the company shut its mine on May 2, 1982, a day locals still refer to as "Black Sunday." The town is now a retirement community.
"I don't think this is going to go anywhere," said John Savage, an attorney in Rifle whose father started a shale-oil company in 1956. "It's just too tough to get that oil out of the ground. There's trillions of barrels down there, but there's too much rock on top of it."
Oil companies also are exploring shale fields in Jordan, Morocco and Australia, though preliminary assessments indicate none is as oil-rich as the Colorado and Utah deposits. The final approval for full-scale projects in the U.S. won't be made until after 2010.
"If we waited a few million years, all this stuff would turn to oil," Rand's Bartis says. "Some people don't want to wait that long."
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Post by Surlethe »

If it's successful, it might stave off peak oil for another hundred years. The problem, then, is that the demand and reliance on cheap oil will have simply grown by at least a factor of four, which means that the crash (when it comes) will be that much worse.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

This isn't really news, since Canada's oil sands are likely going to get a nuke to power the heating process given NG is fast running out.

Even the most optimistic predictions here give you maybe 2 mbpd in another decade or two. We need that every year just to stave off losses in mature fields. Factor in new demand, and it's far worse.

Unconventional oil is the oil of the future... and always will be.
User avatar
Mange
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4179
Joined: 2004-03-26 01:31pm
Location: Somewhere in the GFFA

Post by Mange »

There are large quantities of oil shale here in Sweden as well which would cover the Swedish needs for oil for quite some time if extracted.
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:This isn't really news, since Canada's oil sands are likely going to get a nuke to power the heating process given NG is fast running out.
And I plan to work at it when it opens. :D
User avatar
Mr. T
Jedi Knight
Posts: 866
Joined: 2005-02-28 10:23pm
Location: Canada

Post by Mr. T »

2 mpbd would fall short of even taking care of Canada's domestic oil need, sitting at 2.3 mbpd as of 2007.
I'm curious what the major limiting factor is. If the major limiting factor in oil shale production is getting the oil to flow out faster, then I'd assume the new nuclear plant would be able to significantly increase this by being able to pump more steam in to the wells and increase production. But by how much?

Of course this might be getting in to whether we're getting as much power out of the oil as we're pumping in to it..

Also, is the amount of water Alberta's using for production from, I assume, Lake Athabasca sustainable, or will Alberta be facing serious water shortage problems if this goes on. If its unsustainable is piping water in from a more distant body of water realisitic?
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one? "
-Abraham Lincoln

"I pity the fool!"
- The one, the only, Mr. T :)
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Water. Cost. Lead-time. All of those are major factors here and all will ensure this whole grasping at straws is as fruitful as ethanol is for the Americans.
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Post by CJvR »

Mange wrote:There are large quantities of oil shale here in Sweden as well which would cover the Swedish needs for oil for quite some time if extracted.
There are? Where?
Not that we will ever use them or the vast uranium deposits.
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
User avatar
Mange
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4179
Joined: 2004-03-26 01:31pm
Location: Somewhere in the GFFA

Post by Mange »

CJvR wrote:
Mange wrote:There are large quantities of oil shale here in Sweden as well which would cover the Swedish needs for oil for quite some time if extracted.
There are? Where?
Not that we will ever use them or the vast uranium deposits.
The largest deposits of oil shale (alum shale really, which also was used for uranium production earlier) can be found in Västergötland and Närke (particularly in the vicinity of Örebro). Sweden has produced oil from alum shale but that stopped in the mid 60's as it was deemed too expensive.
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5835
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Post by J »

Mr. T wrote:Also, is the amount of water Alberta's using for production from, I assume, Lake Athabasca sustainable, or will Alberta be facing serious water shortage problems if this goes on. If its unsustainable is piping water in from a more distant body of water realisitic?
At current production levels it's sustainable, though at the cost of some environmental damage from all the wastewater created by the process. Any significant increases in production will not be sustainable without piping in lots of water from other sources.

Going back to the OP, the project they described has been ongoing for a few years now, and though Shell claims the EROEI is feasible I haven't seen any research papers nor independant studies confirming this yet. So far I'd say it's inconclusive and we'll have to wait for more info to come in.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

On the plus side, you can just burn the stuff, so it can supplement our coal reserves quite easily.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Gustav32Vasa
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 2093
Joined: 2004-08-25 01:37pm
Location: Konungariket Sverige

Post by Gustav32Vasa »

Mange wrote:
CJvR wrote:
Mange wrote:There are large quantities of oil shale here in Sweden as well which would cover the Swedish needs for oil for quite some time if extracted.
There are? Where?
Not that we will ever use them or the vast uranium deposits.
The largest deposits of oil shale (alum shale really, which also was used for uranium production earlier) can be found in Västergötland and Närke (particularly in the vicinity of Örebro). Sweden has produced oil from alum shale but that stopped in the mid 60's as it was deemed too expensive.
Wasnt there some news about a find of oil north of the coast of Gotland last year?
"Ha ha! Yes, Mark Evans is back, suckers, and he's the key to everything! He's the Half Blood Prince, he's Harry's Great-Aunt, he's the Heir of Gryffindor, he lives up the Pillar of Storgé and he owns the Mystic Kettle of Nackledirk!" - J.K. Rowling
***
"Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on
the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your
hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."
Crazy_Vasey
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1571
Joined: 2002-07-13 12:56pm

Post by Crazy_Vasey »

J wrote:Going back to the OP, the project they described has been ongoing for a few years now, and though Shell claims the EROEI is feasible I haven't seen any research papers nor independant studies confirming this yet. So far I'd say it's inconclusive and we'll have to wait for more info to come in.
So it's all on the word of a corporation. I'd like to think that was trustworthy, they're going to look pretty stupid if they're bullshitting after all, but yet I find myself lacking in faith.
On the plus side, you can just burn the stuff, so it can supplement our coal reserves quite easily.
Is that really a good idea with global warming to contend with? I was under the impression that coal-fired plants were about as polluting as it gets and simply burning oil-shale in the same way doesn't strike me as being likely to be any better on that front.
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Water. Cost. Lead-time. All of those are major factors here and all will ensure this whole grasping at straws is as fruitful as ethanol is for the Americans.
WTF? It works, it's energy positive, and Canda being able to cover their own domestic oil needs would be great for them. It doesn't help anyone else (unless they choose to trade it at extortionate prices), but it puts Canada in a great position.
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5835
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Post by J »

Starglider wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Water. Cost. Lead-time. All of those are major factors here and all will ensure this whole grasping at straws is as fruitful as ethanol is for the Americans.
WTF? It works, it's energy positive, and Canda being able to cover their own domestic oil needs would be great for them. It doesn't help anyone else (unless they choose to trade it at extortionate prices), but it puts Canada in a great position.
I believe he's referring to oil shale and not oil sands.

However, oil sands are also an issue here, while an expansion of the projects will provide enough oil to cover Canadian needs, there's the slight problem of those greedy war-happy people to our south who are even right now drawing up plans to take our oil for their uses. When crunch time arrives, they aren't very likely to ask "pretty please, we'd like to trade our worldly treasures for your oil", it will be more like "give us your oil or else", kinda like what's going on in Iraq right now.

In any case, even if the oil sands could supply the 5 million barrels a day as the hopelessly optimistic analysts claim, it still comes nowhere close to meeting North American energy needs. Counting on the oil sands to save our bacon is indeed grasping at straws.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
Singular Intellect
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2392
Joined: 2006-09-19 03:12pm
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Singular Intellect »

J wrote:I believe he's referring to oil shale and not oil sands.

However, oil sands are also an issue here, while an expansion of the projects will provide enough oil to cover Canadian needs, there's the slight problem of those greedy war-happy people to our south who are even right now drawing up plans to take our oil for their uses. When crunch time arrives, they aren't very likely to ask "pretty please, we'd like to trade our worldly treasures for your oil", it will be more like "give us your oil or else", kinda like what's going on in Iraq right now.
Do you have any proof of these plans on part of the US to declare war on Canada for it's resources in the future?
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5835
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Post by J »

Bubble Boy wrote:Do you have any proof of these plans on part of the US to declare war on Canada for it's resources in the future?
The US is run by oilmen, Cheney, Bush, and their cronies know all about the importance of securing oil for the US when peak oil inevitably arrives, they understand its true importance. They had Afghanistan, Iraq & the middle east planned out well before 9/11, they either have oil or access to oil. It will be shocked beyond works if they aren't already thinking up ways to unfairly secure a disproportionate amount of Canada's oil. Will it come down to a war declaration? I don't know, more likely it will be threats of severe consequences, up to and including an outright land grab of Alberta.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
Singular Intellect
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2392
Joined: 2006-09-19 03:12pm
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Singular Intellect »

J wrote:
Bubble Boy wrote:Do you have any proof of these plans on part of the US to declare war on Canada for it's resources in the future?
The US is run by oilmen, Cheney, Bush, and their cronies know all about the importance of securing oil for the US when peak oil inevitably arrives, they understand its true importance. They had Afghanistan, Iraq & the middle east planned out well before 9/11,
Again, evidence? Opinions aren't evidence.
they either have oil or access to oil. It will be shocked beyond works if they aren't already thinking up ways to unfairly secure a disproportionate amount of Canada's oil. Will it come down to a war declaration? I don't know, more likely it will be threats of severe consequences, up to and including an outright land grab of Alberta.
So you're just stating your opinion (which seems quite ridiculas) without any evidence. I therefore presume you think these actions will happen within the short time frame Bush has left while in power? Within the next two or three years (whatever is left of Bush's term)?
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Bubble Boy wrote:
Again, evidence? Opinions aren't evidence.
I'm pretty sure if J had any direct evidence, it would be, shall we say, a bit of an international faux pas.
So you're just stating your opinion (which seems quite ridiculas) without any evidence. I therefore presume you think these actions will happen within the short time frame Bush has left while in power? Within the next two or three years (whatever is left of Bush's term)?
The US invaded a nation for no better excuse than "We believe they have weapons we know they don't have". What makes the idea of securing essential, if somewhat lacking (for heavy oil IS grasping at straws, even for Canada; I hope they don't intend on having a growing economy or populace at all), oil reserves so far fetched? The US public has no qualms with funding the House of Saud, it's not much of a stretch to see them endorse other actions if it keeps the lights on and the cars moving.

Let's see, invade a foreign country, or buy an efficient car and cut down on buying shit. I wonder which was preferable in 2003.
User avatar
Singular Intellect
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2392
Joined: 2006-09-19 03:12pm
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Singular Intellect »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Let's see, invade a foreign country, or buy an efficient car and cut down on buying shit. I wonder which was preferable in 2003.
So you and J actually think that before the Bush administration's term is up they'll take actions up to and including invasion of Canada for natural resources.

I'll take that bet and counter with "ain't gonna fucking happen".
User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8456
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Post by Ace Pace »

Bubble Boy wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Let's see, invade a foreign country, or buy an efficient car and cut down on buying shit. I wonder which was preferable in 2003.
So you and J actually think that before the Bush administration's term is up they'll take actions up to and including invasion of Canada for natural resources.

I'll take that bet and counter with "ain't gonna fucking happen".
Did they say that? No. What they said, which is quite likely, is that the U.S administration has emergency plans to deal with any and all situations, up to and including invading neighboring countries to secure essential resources. Militaries and goverments plan for anything, and oil resources are one thing they plan alot about.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Bubble Boy wrote:
So you and J actually think that before the Bush administration's term is up they'll take actions up to and including invasion of Canada for natural resources.

I'll take that bet and counter with "ain't gonna fucking happen".
As Ace pointed out, neither of us said that, so you can cram that strawman up an orifice.

Since I don't see the world going to total shit before the end of '08, it won't be Bush either way, unless they do something insanely stupid, likely involving Iran. Which they won't.

Does that mean the future won't hold certain possibilities that look out-of-the-question today even with the incumbent regime? Fuck. No.
Post Reply