EU Continuity project

[Batman]

Your point being?

The storytelling parts of the game should be treated like other EU stories.

Again, why? As they're at least in part based on game mechanics on some point or other, they're bound to contradict canon something fierce. As we're already redoing the entire EU canon thing, why not initially declare the games apocryphal period and LATER re-canonize the stuff that actually matches with the rest of the universe?

So as you agree that's not enough, what exactly is wrong with the movies explicitly saying there were quadrillions of clones?

How many quadrillions? If it doesn't say that, it's not explicit.

Yes it is. It's merely not exact. It at least gives us an about three orders of magnitude or so approximation. Besides, weren't YOU the one arguing giving an exact number'd be bad?

I rather assumed one of the points of this project was to make sure such a thing WOULDN'T happen. If you want to get rid of the hacks, you have the GOOD authors rewrite THEIR work, not the other way round.

Well, yeah, but suppose that it's implemented, and Zahn refuses to rewrite his stuff.

Give it to Luceno or Allston.

Frankly, reworking someone else's story can be harder than writing your own. So unless the author explicitly states that he trusts another specific author to change his story, it shouldn't be reworked at all.

Which, in case it contradicts canon, means it will under your scheme be DITCHED. How is that preferable (presuming, of course, that the story under discussion was worth saving in the first case) to letting someone else rewrite it?

[Batman]

Batman:

It's also correct.

It's also irrelevant.
Even the movies themselves have been changed because of fan outcries.

Which means Lucas caters, or at least tolerates LFL catering to, fanwhores. That makes it a good idea from a storytelling as opposed to a moneymaking POV how?

You might want to elaborate on that because as it stands, Palpy coming back for DE DOES undermine the theme of the movie saga...

Actually, no. It undermines your interpretation of the view of the movie saga. See why this plan could blow so much on top of everything else yet?

No, not at all.

I'm assuming you're refering to the prophecy of the Chosen One when you mention Star Wars' theme.

You'd be wrong.
I actually meant the good guys eventually winning in the end, as per the them of the OT.

Since the Prophecy has nothing to do with Palpatine himself, only the imbalance he caused in the Force, Anakin fufilled his destiny in ROTJ by hurling Palpatine down the reactor shaft, thus balancing the Force, breaking Palpatine's power, shattering the Empire,

and that's where the prophesy ends as far as the movies are concerned.

and giving his children the chance to defeat the reborn Emperor years later.

You will now show me the part of the PT that references DE.

On a related note, Lucas liked DE so much he once gave it out as a Christmas present to his employees, saying it was the closest thing to what he had in mind for the last 3 episodes.

So Lucas had in mind a really shitty idea for the last three episodes (assuming that's true, which I doubt rather fiercely). Your point being?

Neither would I if it made me that kind of money. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

Doesn't mean it is true to begin with.

I note a distinct lack of rebuttal.

Can't say I do, no. I fail to see what TPM and AOTC stinking has to do with Traviss complete and utter failure to grab the scale of the Wars universe.

Obviously you would fail at that since I never said there was a connection.

Then why mention it in the first place?
Correct. TPM and AOTC blew, and your idea sucks. Get it yet?
No implied connection my ass.

General_Soontir_Fel:

Hence, the EU authors are able to get away with crap. Do you think it's a good thing?

*shrug* Just hire better editors then.

Methinks that's a large part of what the Baron is talking about...

Why does it suck?

Because you're basing your entire project on the assumption the movies will be interpreted the way you want them to be. Aside from your subjective opinion, there is virtually nothing on the scope you're talking about inside the EU that contradicts the movies.

Maybe-MT HTLs. TIEs that can be killed with AMRAAMS. Or moving wrongly in atmosphere. 3 million clones. 5 figure c hyperdrives. 200 dreadnoughts making a difference. Shieldless TIEs. Darth Vader...Vadering 20 years before Luke and Leia's birth. The Clone Masters and the time they needed to grow a clone without it going insane. Executor nearly bancrupting the Empire. Outbound Flight being the first time the OR tried to get outside the galaxy. Yeah, no contradictions whatsoever.

Further, such a project would outright devastate any semblance of order there is to SW's continuity and canon.

Quite the contrary, actually.

[TC Pilot]

General_Soontir_Fel:

And what do you do with the crap that's already canon and can't be contradicted in later work?

Live with it.

The current canon interpretations of Boba Fett's and Palpatine's demises in ROTJ are loopholes. They exist because authors needed a way to resurrect these characters. You can't get those interpretations just from what you see on screen.

The movies do not conflict with either DE or whatever source Boba Fett escaped from the Sarlaac in (long time ago) in any way. You merely want them to because you don't like them.

That makes them idiots who haven't watched the movies properly.

Try finishing the quote.

"...with the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy..."

"...in a vain effort to engage us, the Death Star is relatively unprotected."

Or did you miss the part where Endor was a trap?

Nothing in the movies disproves that specific interpretation of the movies.

Your opinion, unsupported.

Vs. your unsupported opinion.

Of course, that's ignoring all the trouble caused merely be Lucas modifying the OT. Try imagining how much of a catastrophe rewritting and discarding books would do.



Batman:

Which means Lucas caters, or at least tolerates LFL catering to, fanwhores. That makes it a good idea from a storytelling as opposed to a moneymaking POV how?

So it's bad to cater to Fett fans, but good to cater to you?

No, not at all.

Then stop wasting my time.

I actually meant the good guys eventually winning in the end, as per the them of the OT.

Right. Because, in DE, Luke and Leia died and Palpatine reigned forever as god-king of a universe-wide Dark Side empire.

and that's where the prophesy ends as far as the movies are concerned.

And that's where the prophecy ends as far as anyone is concerned. Dark Empire came out almost a decade before Lucas ever concocted the idea of the "Chosen One".

You will now show me the part of the PT that references DE.

Such a stupidly arbitrary and completely irrelevant demand is barely worth my time dismissing.

So Lucas had in mind a really shitty idea for the last three episodes (assuming that's true, which I doubt rather fiercely). Your point being?

How dense are you? You support (presumably) a project where the EU would be brought back in line with how Lucas meant it to be, regardless of the fact some of the sources you want eliminated are more closely in line with that Lucas wanted to begin with.

I note a distinct lack of rebuttal.

I'm sorry, I forgot I had to present a rebuttal to a completely unsupported argument. Prove Star Wars has been made unrecognizable and I'll give you the rebuttal you want.

Then why mention it in the first place?

Gee, maybe because General_Soontir_Fel BROUGHT IT UP?

Reading is fun. You ought to try it.

No implied connection my ass.

Reality is fun. You should take part in it.

A redo of the Prequels on the other hand... that I could get behind.

So you think Traviss doesn't need to be told what Star Wars is about, but George Lucas does.

Don't be foolish. You're the one coming up with a thread about what Lucas should or should not do.

You think George Lucas made the prequels wrongly, but that Traviss shouldn't be smacked by LFL for her bullshit because of some abstract threat this poses against all authors.

My post implied a connection because you're either to lazy or stupid to read. I'm not the one obsessing over Traviss and trying to draw sinister connections with her in everything.

I think the PT blew. I think everything Traviss wrote post-RC:HC blows. I don't think everything you don't like should be removed or re-written. Or at least don't present it in a serious argument on a public forum.

Methinks that's a large part of what the Baron is talking about...

It's not. Otherwise he would have said it.

Maybe-MT HTLs. TIEs that can be killed with AMRAAMS. Or moving wrongly in atmosphere. 3 million clones. 5 figure c hyperdrives. 200 dreadnoughts making a difference. Shieldless TIEs. Darth Vader...Vadering 20 years before Luke and Leia's birth. The Clone Masters and the time they needed to grow a clone without it going insane. Executor nearly bancrupting the Empire. Outbound Flight being the first time the OR tried to get outside the galaxy. Yeah, no contradictions whatsoever.

That might have meant something had I ever said there were no contradictions between the films and EU.

Quite the contrary, actually.

That's nice. I can claim completely baseless assertions about anything just as well as you can.

I've supported my side of the argument. Try doing it yourself or shut up and stop wasting my time. Your opinions might be nice but they mean nothing.

[General Soontir Fel]

Again, why? As they're at least in part based on game mechanics on some point or other, they're bound to contradict canon something fierce. As we're already redoing the entire EU canon thing, why not initially declare the games apocryphal period and LATER re-canonize the stuff that actually matches with the rest of the universe?

That's sort of what I proposed for the whole EU. Decanonization, followed by recanonization, without rewriting if possible, with if necessary.

I suppose that might be a good solution. Games would be the hardest elements to rewrite, and considering how quickly they get out of date, I don't think anyone will bother.

Yes it is. It's merely not exact. It at least gives us an about three orders of magnitude or so approximation. Besides, weren't YOU the one arguing giving an exact number'd be bad?

No, it isnt, and it doesn't. I can say there were "thousands" of clones, and I'd be correct. "Quadrillions" establishes a lower bound of two quadrillion. It does not establish an upper bound. Hence, not explicit. And this is exactly what I'm saying. I do not want an explicitly stated number.

Give it to Luceno or Allston.

Which, in case it contradicts canon, means it will under your scheme be DITCHED. How is that preferable (presuming, of course, that the story under discussion was worth saving in the first case) to letting someone else rewrite it?

Okay, here's the idea. I oppose, in principle, anyone's work being redone and republished without their consent. If that principle is adhered to, it's possible to end up with a situation where we can't keep the work as it is (because it contradicts canon) and we can't rewrite it (because the original author refuses). In that case, yes, I think the only solution is to ditch it.

[General Soontir Fel]

Live with it.

Why?

The movies do not conflict with either DE or whatever source Boba Fett escaped from the Sarlaac in (long time ago) in any way. You merely want them to because you don't like them.

Do I have to say it again? These interpretations were pulled out of the writers' asses to achieve a desired outcome. You can't get "Palpatine got ressurected in a clone body" from what you see on screen.

Try finishing the quote.

"...with the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy..."

"...in a vain effort to engage us, the Death Star is relatively unprotected."

Or did you miss the part where Endor was a trap?

Nothing in the movies disproves that specific interpretation of the movies.

I'm sure when Traviss writes it, you'll be telling us that nothing in the movies contradicts a joint Jedi-Palpatine conspiracy to make a series of brushfire conflicts look like a galactic war.

Vs. your unsupported opinion.

You're claiming it'd be worse than what we have already. Prove it.

Of course, that's ignoring all the trouble caused merely be Lucas modifying the OT. Try imagining how much of a catastrophe rewritting and discarding books would do.

So whether Han shoots first is more important than whether three million soldiers could fight a war on a galactic scale? I see.

[TC Pilot]

Why?

It doesn't matter why. You asked me. I can live with a few crappy books or stupid plots.

Do I have to say it again? These interpretations were pulled out of the writers' asses to achieve a desired outcome. You can't get "Palpatine got ressurected in a clone body" from what you see on screen.

What the hell are you babbling about? Nothing in the movies contradicts "Palpatine got ressurected in a clone body." Or do you only want stories in SW explicitely stated in the movies? I guess that means there can't be a TTT, JAT, NJO, LotF, or anything because they sure aren't from the movies.

I'm sure when Traviss writes it, you'll be telling us that nothing in the movies contradicts a joint Jedi-Palpatine conspiracy to make a series of brushfire conflicts look like a galactic war.

You really are obsessed about Traviss, aren't you? There's a vast different between "directly contradicting G-canon" and "I disagree with how this or that author interprets what's on-screen". One, apparently, you can't or don't want to fathom.

You're claiming it'd be worse than what we have already. Prove it.

Lucas tinkering with a few scenes causes massive uproar and sparks endless debates over which is the true version.

So whether Han shoots first is more important than whether three million soldiers could fight a war on a galactic scale? I see.

Pray tell, where do the movies say the Republic has more than 3 million clones?

I would prefer 3 million clones over "Greedo shot first because I didn't want Han Solo to be a murderer!" Doesn't mean I like 3 million clones, or even accept it.

[General Soontir Fel]

It doesn't matter why. You asked me. I can live with a few crappy books or stupid plots.

I can live with it too. I don't have to like it, though.

What the hell are you babbling about? Nothing in the movies contradicts "Palpatine got ressurected in a clone body." Or do you only want stories in SW explicitely stated in the movies? I guess that means there can't be a TTT, JAT, NJO, LotF, or anything because they sure aren't from the movies.

I've already said that I know that canon explanations are plausible. You're the one who doesn't understand that they have been pulled out of the writer's asses to achieve a desired outcome.

You really are obsessed about Traviss, aren't you? There's a vast different between "directly contradicting G-canon" and "I disagree with how this or that author interprets what's on-screen". One, apparently, you can't or don't want to fathom.

Traviss is currently the worst thing that's happening to the EU (not the worst overall, mind you--that'd be the return of Palpatine and Boba Fett ). There's also a difference between "interpreting what you see on screen" and "finding loopholes in what you see on screen to achieve a specific end to cater to fanboys". One you can't or don't want to fathom.

Lucas tinkering with a few scenes causes massive uproar and sparks endless debates over which is the true version.

And there are no debates over the prequels and the EU now? How will it be worse, especially if what remains of the EU doesn't contradict the movies or itself?

Pray tell, where do the movies say the Republic has more than 3 million clones?

Nowhere explicitly. But we are told that the war is on a galactic scale, and common sense takes us the rest of the way. Unless, of course, it's all a conspiracy between the Jedi and Palpatine...

I would prefer 3 million clones over "Greedo shot first because I didn't want Han Solo to be a murderer!" Doesn't mean I like 3 million clones, or even accept it.

So your interpretation of Han Solo's character takes precedence over George Lucas' and Karen Traviss's interpretation of the scale of the Clone Wars also takes precedence over George Lucas'. Who's that Lucas guy, anyway? Right?

[TC Pilot]

I've already said that I know that canon explanations are plausible. You're the one who doesn't understand that they have been pulled out of the writer's asses to achieve a desired outcome.

Your point?

There's also a difference between "interpreting what you see on screen" and "finding loopholes in what you see on screen to achieve a specific end to cater to fanboys". One you can't or don't want to fathom.

And that difference is irrelevant. You're merely substituting the group being catered to. Trying to coat it over with a facade of movie purism and spouting nonsense about loopholes doesn't change that.

And there are no debates over the prequels and the EU now?

Completely irrelevant. Minor changes have caused massive problems. Massive changes will cause even larger problems.

But we are told that the war is on a galactic scale

Not in the movies.

You're basing your interpretation of g-canon off what parts of c-canon tell you, c-canon that's just as easily replaceable as what you don't agree with.

A policy like the one you're proposing can be used with equal validity to wipe out any Saxton, Stover, Luceno, Zahn, Stackpole, Allston, etc work just as much as Veitch and Traviss' works.

So your interpretation of Han Solo's character takes precedence over George Lucas' and Karen Traviss's interpretation of the scale of the Clone Wars also takes precedence over George Lucas'. Who's that Lucas guy, anyway? Right?

I never said that, and your idiotic accusations and broad generalizations are growing increasingly tiresome.

Your idea is foolish. I've given my reasons. Until you give me something beyond sophistic tripe like this, I'm done with you.

[General Soontir Fel]

Your point?

No, what's your point? That as long as a rationalization, no matter how idiotic, can be found, any idea should be let into canon?

And that difference is irrelevant. You're merely substituting the groupbeing catered to. Trying to coat it over with a facade of movie purism and spouting nonsense about loopholes doesn't change that.

If I was a purist, I'd ignore the EU completely. And there may not be a difference canon-wise, but there sure is when it comes to quality of stories.

Completely irrelevant. Minor changes have caused massive problems. Massive changes will cause even larger problems.

Problems for who? For Lucas personally? For LFL finanicially? For EU authors? For the fans? Be specific, what problems? What is going to happen?

Not in the movies.

You're basing your interpretation of g-canon off what parts of c-canon tell you, c-canon that's just as easily replaceable as what you don't agree with.

Except that the movie novelizations are G-canon.

A policy like the one you're proposing can be used with equal validity to wipe out any Saxton, Stover, Luceno, Zahn, Stackpole, Allston, etc work just as much as Veitch and Traviss' works.

And I never claimed it couldn't. Yes, that's a possibility, and I even mentioned that, in case these authors refused to rewrite when asked, I'd approve it being ditched, no matter how much I liked it.

Yes, it can be used against any author. And I have my opinions as to what should be thrown out. It's not like we're discussing a real proposal here.

Essentially, I am saying that a strict continuity policy should be applied retroactively.

I never said that, and your idiotic accusations and broad generalizations are growing increasingly tiresome.

You said you support a rewrite of the prequels, but not of Karen Traviss's work.

Your idea is foolish. I've given my reasons. Until you give me something beyond sophistic tripe like this, I'm done with you.

Your reasons amount to "It can be used against the good stuff, too." Since I never claimed it couldn't, it's not an argument at all.

I think the crap in the current EU accumulated to levels where it is self-perpetuating and actually obstructs good stories because of the need to adhere to earlier canon. Thus, an overhaul is needed if the overall quality of the EU is to improve. I suggested a way to make that overhaul.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I really don't understand what you want. The writings of Publius are fantastic, because they turn contradictory, stupid or inane events into part of a greater, consistent tapestry. If you're going to say 'why rationalise rar', then why read the fucking EU at all? Why not just make up your own nonsense rules of canon? I don't get it. I enjoy Publius' stuff, even being a absolutely unrepentant movie purist, because I've seen some of the laughable schoolboy bullshit he manages to represent in a consistent, respectable way - thus, such rationalisation makes the EU *better*.

Even he admits that much of the EU - on the face of it - is completely ridiculous and the straight forward narrative must be considerably spruced up and mixed in with vague real world analogy in order to give it the feel of realism. I mean, almost everything about SW combat outside of the films using the films' contents and logic is completely ridiculous. The sheer disparity between the Death Star and the feeble attempts of the EU to portray all-out war are nothing short of breathtaking.

Everything but the film-expanding works (VDs, ICSs, novelisations, etc.) should be thrown out.

[RogueIce]

Your point?

No, what's your point? That as long as a rationalization, no matter how idiotic, can be found, any idea should be let into canon?

I suppose the problem is that, under your current proposal, all it would really fix is that ISDs now fire teraton turbolasers, X-wings are less of a threat, etc.

Basically, it would make the tech fan's dreams come true, but I don't see how stricter continuity controls would actually improve any of the storytelling aspects. TC Pilot has a point in that a clone Emperor and Boba Fett surviving are not strictly against canon; you yourself have even stated that they exist because of "loopholes" the authors found.

But since they are in those loopholes, then strictly speaking they would still exist under your proposed revamp (since they don't contradict canon directly). The only way such things would get thrown out is if you then go with the interpretation angle, which as has been pointed out is hardly a garauntee whoever is doing the interpreting will see it your way.

Essentially, the only way to try and fix the storyline aspects of the EU, which is what you seem to want to do, is toss out everything at once, and then start over and hope for the best. While your idea might help on the technical side of things, I don't see how a stricter adherence to the G-canon would actually affect any of the storyline elements of the EU (unless you want to go for the wholly subjective opinion of keeping around only what was the "good" EU as opposed to the "bad").

And again, you have no garauntees that the new batch of writers/continuity editors/etc won't make the same (or new) silly decisions that brought the EU to it's current state of Darth Jacen Solo, Mandalorian wank, a truely braindead NR government, etc. All you'd really have going is (hopefully) larger scale and more powerful turbolasers.

[Batman]

Again, why? As they're at least in part based on game mechanics on some point or other, they're bound to contradict canon something fierce. As we're already redoing the entire EU canon thing, why not initially declare the games apocryphal period and LATER re-canonize the stuff that actually matches with the rest of the universe?

That's sort of what I proposed for the whole EU. Decanonization, followed by recanonization, without rewriting if possible, with if necessary.

Put like that, I agree. To me it seemed like you were generally opposing the decanonization angle (your opposition to scrapping stuff).

I suppose that might be a good solution. Games would be the hardest elements to rewrite, and considering how quickly they get out of date, I don't think anyone will bother.

Exactly.

Yes it is. It's merely not exact. It at least gives us an about three orders of magnitude or so approximation. Besides, weren't YOU the one arguing giving an exact number'd be bad?

"Quadrillions" establishes a lower bound of two quadrillion. It does not establish an upper bound. Hence, not explicit.

Hence, it gives us an about three orders if magnitude approximation. My apologies if I was working with the wrong definition of explicit. To me, quadrillions instead of millions, billions, tens or gross lots IS explicit.

And this is exactly what I'm saying. I do not want an explicitly stated number.

Again, apparently a disagreement about what constitutes explicite.

Give it to Luceno or Allston.
Which, in case it contradicts canon, means it will under your scheme be DITCHED. How is that preferable (presuming, of course, that the story under discussion was worth saving in the first case) to letting someone else rewrite it?

Okay, here's the idea. I oppose, in principle, anyone's work being redone and republished without their consent.

I don't, but have already pointed out that LEGALLY that consent would naturally be a requirement.

If that principle is adhered to, it's possible to end up with a situation where we can't keep the work as it is (because it contradicts canon) and we can't rewrite it (because the original author refuses). In that case, yes, I think the only solution is to ditch it.

Which is why I'd not be opposed to setting things up so that won't be the case.

[Batman]

Your point?

No, what's your point? That as long as a rationalization, no matter how idiotic, can be found, any idea should be let into canon?

I suppose the problem is that, under your current proposal, all it would really fix is that ISDs now fire teraton turbolasers, X-wings are less of a threat, etc.
Basically, it would make the tech fan's dreams come true, but I don't see how stricter continuity controls would actually improve any of the storytelling aspects. TC Pilot has a point in that a clone Emperor and Boba Fett surviving are not strictly against canon; you yourself have even stated that they exist because of "loopholes" the authors found.

Loopholes that would hopefully be closed if as the General proposes LFL actually bothered to detail what, exactly, happens in the movies.

Essentially, the only way to try and fix the storyline aspects of the EU, which is what you seem to want to do, is toss out everything at once, and then start over and hope for the best. While your idea might help on the technical side of things, I don't see how a stricter adherence to the G-canon would actually affect any of the storyline elements of the EU

It would get rid of those contradicting the REDEFINED G-canon, at least.

And again, you have no garauntees that the new batch of writers/continuity editors/etc won't make the same (or new) silly decisions that brought the EU to it's current state of Darth Jacen Solo, Mandalorian wank, a truely braindead NR government, etc. All you'd really have going is (hopefully) larger scale and more powerful turbolasers.

Never gonna happen in the real world, true, but as a pie-in-the-sky project I say it has merit. Besides, not only would technological consistency alone already be worth it, IF there's for a change a 'continuity council' that unlike in the real world actually bothers to check for conflicts and rejects offending work, regardless of the authors making the same stupid mistakes, their stupid mistaken work won't make it into the canon.

[VT-16]

Dark Empire

Instant Fail. One of the non-minimalistic early sources gets thrown out? No way. I don't care if people got upset at the thought of Palpatine returning, it still provided us with a universe that was more in tune with the films than most other SW stories.

[Batman]

Dark Empire

Instant Fail. One of the non-minimalistic early sources gets thrown out?

HELL YES.

No way. I don't care if people got upset at the thought of Palpatine returning,

completely taking out the POINT of him dying in RoTJ,

it still provided us with a universe that was more in tune with the films than most other SW stories.

So what? Incorrect to boot, at least wrt the novels (I'll freely admit I don't know much about the SW comics, leave alone the early ones). Both Daley's Solo trilogy and Smith's Lando trilogy predate TTT/DE and they clearly indicate a galaxy in line with what we would expect from the Empire. Corporate Sector, anyone?