STGOD: Dead Artist's Society: Mods

[SirNitram]

I'm sorry, this is all a bit surreal. Is the criticism of Hotfoot primarily because he wants Structure in a Structured TGOD?

(Yes, folks, that's what STGOD stands for. TGOD is just 'The Good Old Days' and don't ask me why; it was actual freeform and very whacky as a result.)

Too much structure, and we all might as well just play SE V, or whatever.

I remember old school TGODs, and those you could pull literally anything out of your ass, including yourself.

I don't beleive anyone's suggested anything in the ballpark of SE V. Hell, I don't think we've managed to hit the level of the boardgame Diplomacy. So the complaint is really surreal to be making.

[Imperial Overlord]

There seems to be a broad acceptance of both Nitram and Thirdfain as mods. I move that they both be confirmed and that we then narrow down our discussion to who the third mod should be.

[Stormbringer]

There seems to be a broad acceptance of both Nitram and Thirdfain as mods. I move that they both be confirmed and that we then narrow down our discussion to who the third mod should be.

I'll second the motion.

[Rawtooth]

Thirded the motion.

[Hotfoot]

Hotfoot:

As for my resignation as a mod, I will point out just a couple of things which should have made it clear about my resignation. First of all, at the time you were pushing to have me removed as a mod. I wasn't and I do believe Pablo told you that I was censured over it and that was the end of it. Second of all, I left about several months after the dispute. I doubt Mike or any of the other staff would have waited that long if I was to be removed. And lastly, there is the formal announcement which should still be in the staff thread. You can chose to believe or not but I believe the facts speak for themselves.

Be it dismissal as a mod or censure, it hardly matters, you still overstepped your bounds and were smacked down for it. That you claim to have moved on is nice, but the fact that you're putting words into my mouth indicates otherwise. By the way, no post on the staff thread that I can see. Maybe this was on a forum I don't even have access to, and hence would have no way of knowing?

As for the whole matter, I accepted the consequences and as far as I'm concerned that is the end of the matter. It's you that can't let it go and is insisting on dragging it up because we have a difference of opinion.

One of the consequences is that you pissed all over someone and never made amends. If you expect me to somehow be fine with that when the next time I come in contact with you, you're misrepresenting my positions, putting words in my mouth, and being a general jackass, you're more deluded than I though.

As for my choices of moderator, I meant what I said and have no hidden motive. We obviously disagree on what and how much structure is necessary and on the matter of attitude towards STGODs. If you want to be a mod, fine, but please don't read more into a criticism than is there.

My attitude towards STGODs is clear. I'm not going to tolerate the same crap that detracted from previous STGODs. As far as rules, well, you've been claiming I want to make it effectively Space Empires 5, I asked you to provide a direct quote of me saying that. So far, nothing but backpedalling. Would you like a shovel as well?

Don't get me wrong, you're free to not vote for me as a moderator, that's fine, but you went beyond that and registered a complaint specifically against me. Given the way you and Beowulf distorted my positions, I can only assume it's because you're both still irritated with me over STGOD4, despite your protesting that you've "gotten over it". Either that, or you just didn't understand what I wrote. If I misjudged your reading comprehension, I do apologize, and I will endevour to use more miniscule and candid verbiage in the future.

[Stormbringer]

Be it dismissal as a mod or censure, it hardly matters, you still overstepped your bounds and were smacked down for it. That you claim to have moved on is nice, but the fact that you're putting words into my mouth indicates otherwise. By the way, no post on the staff thread that I can see. Maybe this was on a forum I don't even have access to, and hence would have no way of knowing?

Fucking liar

One of the consequences is that you pissed all over someone and never made amends. If you expect me to somehow be fine with that when the next time I come in contact with you, you're misrepresenting my positions, putting words in my mouth, and being a general jackass, you're more deluded than I though.

I don't really care what your personal opinions of me are or aren't. The fact of the matter is that three years ago the staff handled the matter so far as SDN is concerned and if you don't like that then it's just too bad for you. As far as the board is concerned the matter is over. And if that means that you can't possibly be civil or refrain from ranting about a vendetta then that's your problem, not mine.

My attitude towards STGODs is clear. I'm not going to tolerate the same crap that detracted from previous STGODs. As far as rules, well, you've been claiming I want to make it effectively Space Empires 5, I asked you to provide a direct quote of me saying that. So far, nothing but backpedalling. Would you like a shovel as well?

I've not said shit about Space Empires at any time. That was Beowulf's post, not mine.

As for rules, it has to do with the idea that you think we're too stupid to manage with out setting up some iron-clad system. I don't mind a degree of regulation but given your contempt for what has been done in previous STGODs, I think we simply have a disagreement on how and what an STGOD should be.

I would also note that my other reason, that you seem to have a disdain for STGODs, is drawn from the post in the very origin thread of this current game. And your paranoid, bitter ranting has hardly lead me to change my mind about your overall regard for such games.

Frankly, yes. STGODS are "dead art", and to be honest, I kind of hope it stays that way. Every STGOD I've witnessed has boiled down into a massive debate on how to play the game, virtually every battle sparked some kind of argument or another, one person would say such and such was a good idea, someone would say it's a bad idea, arguments would commence in the OOC thread, then whoever won the debate would invariably win the battle, unless they were feeling "gracious". Then you'd get into debates of what would make sense, what would be lame, etc., you'd always get some lame motherfucker trying to get some stupid technology approved so they could do some unblockable, untraceable shit without really putting any thought behind the plot. Invariably, by the time a sensible method of combat, ship construction, tech, etc. had been hammered out, the game was already over.

Add to this, any game that started with decent structure never went anywhere because people were informed enough not to make fucking stupid decisions, which of course are the catalyst for any STGOD, because the first person to fuck up calls in the bangbus, and only from that point can people capitalize on the lesser mistakes people made in joining the bangbus to start larger conflicts over a longer scale.

Moreover, these affairs are multi-month games with tremendous scale, but god help you if you're not online 24/7, because people will bitch you out for being offline for classes, work, or being in the fucking hospital, and if you miss one of the posting sprees, well tough shit for you.

[Beowulf]

Tell me I'm wrong. Show me an example. Yes, I am implying that it's virtually impossible to organize an STGOD that's fun. Too much structure, and people bitch and moan that you're limiting their "creativity", too little structure, and people turn water into untraceable nukes. You can see right here in this thread that every person has a different idea on how to make an STGOD work, and many of them are mutually exclusive. Points, no points, more freedom, more mod control, etc. I'm sure if you ran a survey of how everyone would like to run an STGOD, you'll get a tremendous list of stuff that you really couldn't do anything with.

If people don't know what to expect from the game, they'll make their own assumptions, and they'll rabidly defend those assumptions when they are challenged, and unless they're really good debators or happen to have a reasonable assumption (and thus more support from other players), they're going to lose the debate, the battle, and quite possibly the game. They're going to be sore about it because if they had known what the result would have been beforehand, they would have altered their action to suit.

But make it so that everyone knows what to expect, and nobody makes a move, for fear of the bangbus.

You might not like that I'm pointing these things out, but frankly these are problems that need to be addressed any time someone suggests an STGOD if they expect it to go anywhere, on top of the usual, "who's going to be a mod" and other managerial stuff. So excuse me for taking the rose colored glasses off of your image of what an STGOD is, but how many times have you decided, "gosh, I had such a good time with the old ones, I wonder if we can get a new one started" and had it go nowhere now? Three times? Four? How many failed attempts have their been since STGOD4?

emphasis added.

You've been against this from the beginning, as shown by my and Stormy's quotes. Why the hell do you even want to mod this?

[Hotfoot]

Fucking liar

I'm sorry, I looked for "Stormbringer" and "removed" in my search. I wasn't aware not finding it made me a liar. You may wish to be more cautious in your accusations, Stormie.

Where's the bit about why, again? I mean, you did say there was a why. If there's no why, does that make you a liar?

I don't really care what your personal opinions of me are or aren't. The fact of the matter is that three years ago the staff handled the matter so far as SDN is concerned and if you don't like that then it's just too bad for you. As far as the board is concerned the matter is over. And if that means that you can't possibly be civil or refrain from ranting about a vendetta then that's your problem, not mine.

Yes, the staff handled the matter. Does this mean I have to like you or put up with bullshit that's a thinly vieled vendetta of your own? No, it doesn't. You've misrepresented my points and constructed a strawman. Why? Because you can't read, or because you don't like me and are willing to misinterpret whatever I say into what you can most easily attack? Take your pick, because it's one or the other. Either you're a moron, or you've got your own axe to grind.

I've not said shit about Space Empires at any time. That was Beowulf's post, not mine.

I'm sorry, I assumed that you leaping to his defense again and supporting his point meant that you agreed with him, especially since you focused rather heavily on the rules bit yourself.

As for rules, it has to do with the idea that you think we're too stupid to manage with out setting up some iron-clad system. I don't mind a degree of regulation but given your contempt for what has been done in previous STGODs, I think we simply have a disagreement on how and what an STGOD should be.

To be fair, I don't think everyone here is stupid. I mean, you are, but you're not everyone. You're special.

Meanwhile, you keep saying over and over and OVER again that there's some sort of fundamental difference in how much regulation there should be. I've already drawn my line in the sand. Where's yours?

I would also note that my other reason, that you seem to have a disdain for STGODs, is drawn from the post in the very origin thread of this current game. And your paranoid, bitter ranting has hardly lead me to change my mind about your overall regard for such games.

I have a disdain for what STGODs have been. I have no interest in seeing another STGOD if it's just going to keep repeating the same mistakes that made all the previous ones unenjoyable.

Frankly, yes. STGODS are "dead art", and to be honest, I kind of hope it stays that way. Every STGOD I've witnessed has boiled down into a massive debate on how to play the game, virtually every battle sparked some kind of argument or another, one person would say such and such was a good idea, someone would say it's a bad idea, arguments would commence in the OOC thread, then whoever won the debate would invariably win the battle, unless they were feeling "gracious". Then you'd get into debates of what would make sense, what would be lame, etc., you'd always get some lame motherfucker trying to get some stupid technology approved so they could do some unblockable, untraceable shit without really putting any thought behind the plot. Invariably, by the time a sensible method of combat, ship construction, tech, etc. had been hammered out, the game was already over.

Add to this, any game that started with decent structure never went anywhere because people were informed enough not to make fucking stupid decisions, which of course are the catalyst for any STGOD, because the first person to fuck up calls in the bangbus, and only from that point can people capitalize on the lesser mistakes people made in joining the bangbus to start larger conflicts over a longer scale.

Moreover, these affairs are multi-month games with tremendous scale, but god help you if you're not online 24/7, because people will bitch you out for being offline for classes, work, or being in the fucking hospital, and if you miss one of the posting sprees, well tough shit for you.

I fail to see where in any of that I was calling for more and more rules, Stormbringer. Backpedal more, please.

Moreover, I fail to see how any of that was "paranoid". Bitter, sure, because several games that could have been good devolved into stupid bullshit. But then I don't have the memory of a goldfish like you do, so I guess the concept is alien.

Are you claiming that previous games were flawless? That my criticisms don't strike home are aren't relevant? That games haven't been brought to a grinding halt by the things I've mentioned, or that the enjoyment of players hasn't been reduced because of them? In a thread where everyone was seeing STGODs with rose-colored glasses, I showed everyone the shit that can happen, because you fucking can't go into one of these games with the attitude that everything will work itself out as you go. That's not worked well in the past, and franly it's just a general tenent of life. You have to plan what you do before you do it. While sitting around and waxing poetic about something is nice and all, if you go to Vegas without packing, getting money for gas, plane tickets, or whatnot, you're not going to get there very easily.

Now if people are willing to either change those flaws or deal with them, by all means, let them play. Most people seem willing to change the ones that need changing, but you are just whining that I showed things as they were.

Tell me I'm wrong. Show me an example. Yes, I am implying that it's virtually impossible to organize an STGOD that's fun. Too much structure, and people bitch and moan that you're limiting their "creativity", too little structure, and people turn water into untraceable nukes. You can see right here in this thread that every person has a different idea on how to make an STGOD work, and many of them are mutually exclusive. Points, no points, more freedom, more mod control, etc. I'm sure if you ran a survey of how everyone would like to run an STGOD, you'll get a tremendous list of stuff that you really couldn't do anything with.

If people don't know what to expect from the game, they'll make their own assumptions, and they'll rabidly defend those assumptions when they are challenged, and unless they're really good debators or happen to have a reasonable assumption (and thus more support from other players), they're going to lose the debate, the battle, and quite possibly the game. They're going to be sore about it because if they had known what the result would have been beforehand, they would have altered their action to suit.

But make it so that everyone knows what to expect, and nobody makes a move, for fear of the bangbus.

You might not like that I'm pointing these things out, but frankly these are problems that need to be addressed any time someone suggests an STGOD if they expect it to go anywhere, on top of the usual, "who's going to be a mod" and other managerial stuff. So excuse me for taking the rose colored glasses off of your image of what an STGOD is, but how many times have you decided, "gosh, I had such a good time with the old ones, I wonder if we can get a new one started" and had it go nowhere now? Three times? Four? How many failed attempts have their been since STGOD4?

emphasis added.

You've been against this from the beginning, as shown by my and Stormy's quotes. Why the hell do you even want to mod this?

I've been against people going "lol let's STGOD wee" since the beginning because it's a fucking moronic attitude to take when trying to organize a game. The old games where far from flawless and the newer ones either didn't have the population to manage an effective game or ignored previous pitfalls that helped to ruin previous games. The only reason I'm even bothering to try modding this one is that it doesn't look like it's fucked to hell yet.

Meanwhile, neither one of you have said anything about my critisms of games past. Granted, part of that is probably because you know that you're both at the core of some of my most serious criticisms for what has helped to ruin otherwise halfway decent games.

Here's something you should maybe have highlighted instead:

You might not like that I'm pointing these things out, but frankly these are problems that need to be addressed any time someone suggests an STGOD if they expect it to go anywhere, on top of the usual, "who's going to be a mod" and other managerial stuff.

But I guess THAT wouldn't have made for as strong an argument against me, hm?

Look you two, the bottom line is that organizing and moderating a game is WORK, not just a fucking feather in your cap. It can be fun, but most of the time it's work, and an STGOD without effective structure or moderation might as well be a TGOD. If you think you can make an STGOD without doing the grutnwork to get it off the ground and keep it running, you're both insane. This sort of game is the sort that lasts months, possibly even years if done right, but it won't last a day if there isn't a proper structure in place and people willing to enforce the agreed upon rules in a fair manner.

What's most hilarious about all this is that once I pointed out the flaws from previous STGODs, I got people thinking about how to avoid them in THIS STGOD. You might not like my methods, and you might not like me, but I think the results speak for themselves.

[Hotfoot]

There seems to be a broad acceptance of both Nitram and Thirdfain as mods. I move that they both be confirmed and that we then narrow down our discussion to who the third mod should be.

If I am mod or not, I would nominate you. I don't know if Thirdfain wants to be a mod, and we should really have three.

Naturally, we can't make this a poll, since then anyone could vote, skewing the ballot, so everyone that's playing should vote by posting here with the name of the nominees they would like to see mod.

Nitram is obvious.
Thirdfain should post if he would accept such a position or not.
Beowulf was nominated.
Hotfoot, obviously. Can't forget myself.
Imperial Overlord.

Are there any other nominations, or should we get to the voting? Remember, you can vote for anyone you want, even the entire list, though that is potentially silly.

[Academia Nut]

Okay then, well my votes are:

SirNitram
Imperial Overlord
Thirdfain

[A-Wing_Slash]

Nitram, Thirdfain, and Hotfoot, with my alternate should Thirdfain decline the position being Imperial Overlord.

[Imperial Overlord]

For mods, definitely go with three.

I'll take the job if I'm wanted, to clear up my own position.

As previously mentioned, I trust Hotfoot and Nitram to be responsible mods and I have no experience at all with Thirdfain as a mod, although the broad base of support his nomination seems to enjoy speaks well for him.

[InnocentBystander]

Nitram, Hotfoot and Imperial Overlord is my vote.

[rhoenix]

Nitram, Hotfoot and Imperial Overlord is my vote.

This I second.

[HSRTG]

Nitram, Thirdfain, Imperial Overlord.

[Redleader34]

Nitram Thirdfan and my third is Imperial Overlord

[consequences]

Nitram, Hotfoot, and Thirdfain.

[Stormbringer]

Thirdfain, Nitram, Imperial Overlord

[Beowulf]

Thirdfain, Nitram, Imperial Overlord

Ditto.

[Adrian Laguna]

With an STGOD containing this many people I'm not sure if three mods is enough.

My votes are Martin Ris, the Third Fain of New Jersey, He Whose Feet are on Fire, and an Epic Hero. The Lord of the Over Empire could be an option instead of the Hero, if Martin is serious about not wanting to co-mod with said Hero. Also Feet on Fire goes with the Hero, as one's order balances the other's chaos. If three is to be settled upon, then I remove the two who go together and vote for the remainder.

[SirNitram]

I am in fact serious. Beowulf and I have serious disagreements over how STGODs should go.

[Adrian Laguna]

In that case

Third Fain of New Jersey, Martin Ris, Lord of the Over Empire

Ditto.

Thirded, though I wouldn't be opposed to adding He Whose Feet are on Fire as a fourth mod.


Yes, I'll stop changing people's names around for my own amusement after this post.

[SirNitram]

Impie gets my vote for the third. I know I can work well with him.

[Thirdfain]

Well, I am already doing a number of mod-like things around here, and I know I can work with Nitram. If the votes work out that way, I'd be pleased to mod.

[Stormbringer]

So how many people do we need for a final decision? And how close are we to one?