Palpatine's RedGuard vs. the Sardaukar (Dune)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-08 11:19pm

True...given that Leia and Luke have both survived shots...so aside from chest or head wounds...I believe anyone could survive a Blaster shot.

Also the Sardukar, while fantastic, aren't low Jedi level...I mean given while it's not a good way to judge...a fellow guardsman sent basically 15 of his elite to soften Kanos...that says alot given they were above par ST.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-08 11:22pm

Ender wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Ender wrote:
And what is the source about beam weapons.
The films. Stormtroopers take a blaster shot and go down, correct?
1) Ok, I was confused since that is a bolt, not a beam weapon
2) Go down, yes. Die, not necessarily. The armor makes a one shot kill very difficult.

True that, energy weapons then.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-09 01:38am

In a mano a mano fight the Sardukar go down hard. They're good but the Imperial Guard is even tougher and with better quality weapons.

Now if we're talking the entire forces going at it the Sardukar would anihilate the Imperial Guard.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 05:52am

The Red Guards power grows everytime I hear about 'em...

in the "Infinities" A New Hope they all carried Double Bladed Lightsabers... then again Luke made short work of a bunch of them himself (he had extra training, he was maybe ROTJ strength). The again, Han was able to surprise at least one of them with a saber through the back, heh.

; )

Still, not bad for some guys in togas with spears.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 05:56am

The Sardukar's weaponry varies. In the books, we just assume they use what everybody else uses... maula pistols, swords, knives, and they wear body armor.

In the game Emperor: Battle for Dune they carry lasguns and machineguns. In the Sci Fi channel Dune movie they carry shotgun/miniguns and wear samurai type armor.

In the David Lynch Dune movie they carry slug throwers and lasguns and wear rad protection type suits.

In a battle on a planet other than Dune (static electricity problems and the way in which they attract worms makes shield use impractical except in areas of rock formation, like mountains) then they'd most certainly have personal shields (so, the slow blade penetrates).

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2003-01-09 07:07am

Darth Wong wrote:
Defiant wrote:But consider: Accorrding to the book, the Sardaukar were raised from infancy to not just fight, but to instill terror. From what I know if the Crimson Guards, they were picked men from Imperial troops, but I seriously doubt that they had been trained from infancy (unless they're clones?).
So? Klingons are trained from infancy to fight, and they suck. Unless the Sardaukar can use the Force and use Force pikes to kill men with guns in large numbers with no need for goofball techno-shields to protect them, they are no match for a Crimson Guardsman.
Also, a Sardaukar is reputed to be the rough equivalent of a Bene Gesserit adept. I'm not sure how that equates to a Jedi, but that is pretty damn tough.
Do not introduce somebody else's opinion as evidence.

When I say "reputed", I am referring to the fact that we don't know the true fighting abilities of a Bene Gesserit adept. But the fact that Sardaukar have the same in-fighting abilities of a BG adept is canon (its stated in the glossary section of the first Dune novel)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 09:36am

As stated before the shield in Dune is actually a bad thing(given how is it to ignore any CoM or CoE)

also the whole BG vs Jedi...he's saying we DON'T know and saying because they are equal to a BG is the same as us going IG are equal to Jedi and leaving it at that.

Use evidence showing how bad ass the Sardukar are, not what they are compared to and make the leap of logic that the BG and Sardukar are the same.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 09:47am

Question for ya..

"CoM or CoE" ? What are those?

The Bene Gesserit know the Weirding Way of battle, but I know precious little about what that actually entails (some kind of martial arts and muscle/mind training I suppose) even after reading the first three books...

Entry on Sardaukar from "Dune" (1965 ed.) glossary p. 536

"the soldier-fanatics of the Padishah Emperor. They were men from an environmental background of such ferocity that it killed six out of thirteen persons before the age of elevan. Their military training emphasized ruthlessness and a near-suicidal disregard for personal safety. They were taught from infancy to use cruelty as a standard weapon, weakening opponents with terror. At the apex of their sway over the affairs of the Universe, their swordsmanship was said to match that of the Ginaz tenth level and their cunning abilities at in-fighting were reputed to approach those of a Bene Gesserit adept. Any one of them was rated a match for any ten ordinary Landsraad military conscripts...."

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2003-01-09 09:51am

Ghost Rider wrote:As stated before the shield in Dune is actually a bad thing(given how is it to ignore any CoM or CoE)

also the whole BG vs Jedi...he's saying we DON'T know and saying because they are equal to a BG is the same as us going IG are equal to Jedi and leaving it at that.

Use evidence showing how bad ass the Sardukar are, not what they are compared to and make the leap of logic that the BG and Sardukar are the same.

Understood. There are no real canon examples of the Sardaukar in actual combat (except when three Sardaukar agents lose quickly to the Fremen). All the references point to the following facts:
-their ferocity in battle derived from their brutal upbringing
-the 10-to-1 comparison to Landsraad conscripts

Since their is no detailed accounts of their battle with the Fremen at the end of "Dune", there is no way to truly measure Sardaukar fighting ability in
action. So I guess the point is moot

Crimson Guard: 1
Sardaukar: 0

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 09:53am

CoE, CoM: two very basic principles.

Also do you freaking get it...I could go

1 Crimson Guardsman can take down 20 Stormtroopers, is hand picked by Palpatine and the final test is a crucible of fire against their equal witnessed by Vader and the Emperor.

WTF does that statmenet above mean other than they have some pretty good training?!

What part of we need some showing of their skill to determine how badass the Sardukar are other than one universe's comparision against itself.

So what if they can take down ten conscripts, and are BG equvilent....what does that all mean?! Where have they shown what a single Sardukar can truly do, so you can use that as a comparison...we've given plenty of what a CG does...what comparitive points for the Sardukar?!

And yes I read Dune books, I'm saying this because for the most part...much of this has been literally the BS 10 conscripts=1 Sardukar...so?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 09:55am

racking fracking...ah well...above is more towards Kurgan who brought up the 10 conscript point...AGAIN.

Which really proves much like the SM point that they are better than 100 regular 40 K troop what does that really entail.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 10:12am

No need to get so upset, just adding support to previously made statements.

CoE, CoM: two very basic principles.

Then, surely it would be no trouble at all to define what those are.

The Sardadukar engage the Atreides House in battle, massacring them. 50 legions IIRC, disguised as Harkonnen troops (though in the David Lynch movie they aren't disguised)...

Of course, they did have a traitor who shut down the House shields, giving them an advantage. ; )

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 10:16am

You still aren't getting it...the two principles are two things Herbert took practically in no account...okay what would a Iowa gun do to a shield?

According to Dune it should bounce off, even though it gives no indication of WHY.

So figure out from there what CoE and CoM are...Conservation of...I'll let you take the third part.

And your above statment means shit as I said I could give how they are trained and how many of THEIR troops they can slaughter...so?

It matters upon what actions took place and what were their reactions.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 10:16am

We really can't do much of a comparision, if that's what you mean.

We have no way of knowing if an Imperial Guardsmen would beat an Imperial Saradukar in battle, or if an army of each would beat the other, since they have never fought, and never will, except in our hypothetical scenarios.

By your same line of reasoning, saying that an Imperial Guardsman has near Jedi abilities is just as useless as saying that a Saradukar has near BG abilities. Think about it.

You may be trying to make a point, but isn't it kind of pointless, if we can't compare them, then why bother with this in the first place?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 10:18am

Do you fucking understand...we know how fast the reactions are of a guardsman, we know what they level of strength is ...

WHAT DO WE KNOW OF SOME COMPARISON TO THE SARDUKAR?

jeebus h chrickey...did you understand that point when they said why saying BG equvilent is worth shit?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-09 12:29pm

Vision isnt a problem for the guardsmen given there helments are probobly set up like stormtroopers

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-09 03:27pm

i reckon the Imperial Guardsmen would win, but they would take losses. from a distance the Sardadukar would take heavy losses but up close i believe that the Sardadukar would be better on the blade work.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-09 03:35pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Ender wrote:
And what is the source about beam weapons.
The films. Stormtroopers take a blaster shot and go down, correct?

Yes, the armor is meant to protect only against low caliber hits and glancing hits from larger weapons. Even against penetrating hits its does much to reduce the damage.

In the movies with always see rifles or quite large handguns being used against them. But we don't know if a single one of the troopers died. After all a Stormtrooper was checking one of his fallen comrades when Vader walked in the first time in ANH.

Necro99 · Post by **Necro99** » 2003-01-09 05:28pm

Crimson guard win, but the sardaukar is way cooler

.
Think of it, gatling gun, razor blade, power armor...
:drool:

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-09 10:57pm

Necro99 wrote:Crimson guard win, but the sardaukar is way cooler .
Think of it, gatling gun, razor blade, power armor...
:drool:

You're lettin' that damned min-series lead you astray, bub.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 12:07am

Do you fucking understand...we know how fast the reactions are of a guardsman, we know what they level of strength is ...

WHAT DO WE KNOW OF SOME COMPARISON TO THE SARDUKAR?

jeebus h chrickey...did you understand that point when they said why saying BG equvilent is worth shit?

Take a chill pill, and after you've done that, come back. Now here's my answer: we know how fast the Bene Gesserit reactions are (Paul Atreides was one, so was Lady Jessica). They are super-human, able to overwhelm an armed opponent (an above average one at that... a Fremen, which are considered pretty powerful for humans) with just bare hands.

BG = Faster, stronger than normal human. Probably equivalent to the "near Jedi" reflexes of the Imperial Guardsmen.

Do the guardsmen use Force powers (ie: throw lightning, force push, choke, etc)? If they do, then they are probably more powerful.

If its just in terms of heightened speed, reactions and strength, then they are probably equal.

Paul Atreides had a kind of "force push" (at least in the David Lynch movie) but he was an extraordinary example... more powerful than even a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother (considered the most powerful of the BG, generally speaking).

Now the Saradaukar approaches that of a Bene Gesserit adept, so they're close (maybe 75-90% let's say) to the speed and power in reaction time/hand to hand combat.

What kind of armor do the Imperial Guardsmen wear? Because the weaponry of Saradaukar consists primarily of the sword and knife. Perhaps, if the armor is like that of a Stormtrooper (not just a helmet and cloak) then it would necessitate going for weak joints in the body glove.

The Saradaukar wear armor, and would most likely use shields, which means protection against fast or glancing melee attacks or fast projectiles (within a certain power magnitude of course, but pretty good for small arms fire). It's probably doubtful that the Saradaukar would make use of Lasguns combined with shields, for fear of hitting their own men, and generating a kiloton explosion should one of the shields be hit by laser fire however.

We could be generous and say the Saradaukar make use of small arms slug throwers combined with bladed weapons (swords, knives). The swords they use I believe are ordinary swords (no indication that they're not) and might not be a match for vibro force pikes, though if they had Shields, this would more than make up for it in close combat.

The exact strength of the Saradaukar armor is not known, but its highly likely that it has weaknesses, much like the Stormtrooper body glove, or that a soldier's helmet can be ripped off and he can be killed that way. Otherwise the Fremen, armed with mostly melee weapons would have a hard time killing them (though in the movies they use Lasguns and Weirding Modules so that wasn't an issue).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-10 12:16am

Could you provide proof of persay the Sardukar's weaponry.

All we know is that they are BG level adept...we truly have no idea of what that entail since what we do have is Paul(far too singular and extraordinary of a case...it would like using Anakin as a case for run of the mill Jedi) and Lady Jessica(also shown by Herbert's own words to be an extraordinary case).

We have no idea of what BG adept entail...and for the most part all we know is that they are clearly inferior to a Fremen...but you could use some evidence of what they are from there as comparison, which would provide a better basis of what they are possibly capable off.

As for example are they capable of literally blocking getting out of the way of any sort of fast moving projectile...and seriously don't use the shield because it is just there because Herbert wanted to throw physics out the door to exclaim why he was using knives in such an advanced age(the amount of force we have seen from a blaster shot...Han's blaster, should be enough to kill a Sardukar in his shield...by literally CoM.

So provide that and you have a better leg to stand on.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-10 12:27am

Ender wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Read "Crimson Empire". The Force powers of Crimson Guardsmen are real. They would annihilate Sardaukar.
Jax was undergoing training to be a Sovereign Protector according to SW Gamer #5

The Soveriegn Protectors are uber-Royal Guardsmen who protect his cloning facilities on Byss, and police the ranks of the Royal Guard.

Whereas Royal Guardsmen are given rudimentary Force training, Soveriegn Protectors can tap into the Dark Side of the Force.

Jax's extra talents were due to the fact he had just entered tutolege under a ersatz Sith Lord, Lady Lumiya. It was her who ordered him to sabotage Palpatine's clones and precipitate his final destruction.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-10 12:29am

Oh yeah, Royal Guardsmen and Soveriegn Protectors carry heavy blaster pistols (plural ANH Solo type weapons now--blowing torso-sized chunks of hangar).

They also are within reach of heavy weapons as seen in DE often.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-10 12:44am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Oh yeah, Royal Guardsmen and Soveriegn Protectors carry heavy blaster pistols (plural ANH Solo type weapons now--blowing torso-sized chunks of hangar).

No. They do not carry Han Solo "blast torsos out of walls" weapons.

Theirs are bigger, capable of punching through a TIE's viewport.

To give a quasimodern comparrison, the Usual rebel sidearm and gun the scouttroopers use is equivlent to a Glock 9mm. Han carries the equivlent to a 50 cal Desert Eagle. The Guards carry one of those new four barrels the Army is developing for Land Warrior.

These are not guys you want to fuck with.