For the more than nine years that Ars Technica has been publishing online, we've been outspoken when it comes to the lack of balance between the threat of piracy (which is always overstated) and the "solutions" to piracy (which are often draconian) that some copyright holders demand. Whether it's laws that would turn the possession of software into a crime, completely baked piracy reports, or yet another law meant to criminalize civil infractions, we've cast a critical eye on an industry that defines solipsism.
And, everyone once and while, we're accused of hyperbole—of exaggerating our objections. That's why it's with both a grin and a lonely tear that I report to you the latest ridiculous claim from the copyright-trumps-all brigade.
NBC/Universal general counsel Rick Cotton suggests that society wastes entirely too much money policing crimes like burglary, fraud, and bank-robbing when it should be doing something about piracy instead.
"Our law enforcement resources are seriously misaligned," Cotton said. "If you add up all the various kinds of property crimes in this country, everything from theft, to fraud, to burglary, bank-robbing, all of it, it costs the country $16 billion a year. But intellectual property crime runs to hundreds of billions [of dollars] a year." Cotton's comments come in Paul Stweeting's report on Hollywood's latest shenanigans on Capitol Hill.
There are two obvious rejoinders to such a ridiculous statement. The first is that "hundreds of billions of dollars a year" is a myth. The MPAA's own cherry-picked study from Smith Barney in 2005 put their annual loss at less than $6 billion, and while the music and software industries also like to publish trumped-up claims, the figures are nowhere near hundreds of billions of dollars each year.
The second objection, of course, is that the traditional crimes Cotton describes often involve the destruction of people's lives along with property. Burglaries can result in homicide, as can fraud (ask the preacher's wife), while bank robbery is, without a doubt, a dangerous game. Those crimes also typically involve real property. For better or for worse, real property should not be confused with intellectual property, which is not subject to the same rules of scarcity. Stopping a bank heist is, without a doubt, a far more important matter than stopping the bootlegging of Gigli or Spider-Man 3. Chances are you would prefer that the cops spend their efforts protecting people from rampant home burglaries than chasing down kids with pirated music on their iPods.
Regardless, Cotton and his Coalition Against Counterfeiting and Piracy are seeking to change federal law enforcement emphasis so that intellectual property crimes are given priority over other kinds of crime... a realignment, to play off Cotton's statement. Battling organized crime is hardly objectionable, and we hope the coalition sees success in taking down the profiteers of piracy. Offending the public with yet more lies and hyperbole isn't going to curry much favor, however.
Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on piracy
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
- Dominus Atheos
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3904
- Joined: 2005-09-15 09:41pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on piracy
Ars Technica
What can you say except that those people are nutters living with a distorted view of reality.
My only question is how long can they keep ratcheting up the insanity before the backlash of the unwashed masses occurs. It seems to be somewhat happening in the music space (more non-DRM options), but seems like video is behind the curve on that one.
My only question is how long can they keep ratcheting up the insanity before the backlash of the unwashed masses occurs. It seems to be somewhat happening in the music space (more non-DRM options), but seems like video is behind the curve on that one.
Hundreds of billions a year? And yet despite these horrendous losses to piracy they're still churning profits? Precisely how much money does that whacko think they were making before Internet piracy came along? Surely he must have the CEO of Universal confused with the Sheik of Dubai or something.
SDN World 2: The North Frequesuan Trust
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty
SDN World 5: San Dorado
There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty
SDN World 5: San Dorado
There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes
-
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 799
- Joined: 2007-02-12 06:50am
Obviously you don't live in this man's reality. It is not fossilized plants that make oil, but instead celebrities. The more famous one is, the more oil one produces, and therefore he IS the sheik of Dubai!
That is where they are loosing their money! Every pirated dollar is felt through a mystic, force like psychic field, causing the celebri-slave harvesting operation to loose productivity!
PIRACY IS CAUSING PEAK OIL! Pirates are responsible for the collapse of western civilization! All is lost unless we kill all P2P programs and networks and turn ourselves in to the nearest NRAA office for processing and repackaging; to be sold as sustenance to their underpaid asian-child harvesters!
Seriously though, I hope these people take a business trip and get kidnapped by radicals, then we'll see where their priorities lie.
That is where they are loosing their money! Every pirated dollar is felt through a mystic, force like psychic field, causing the celebri-slave harvesting operation to loose productivity!
PIRACY IS CAUSING PEAK OIL! Pirates are responsible for the collapse of western civilization! All is lost unless we kill all P2P programs and networks and turn ourselves in to the nearest NRAA office for processing and repackaging; to be sold as sustenance to their underpaid asian-child harvesters!
Seriously though, I hope these people take a business trip and get kidnapped by radicals, then we'll see where their priorities lie.
Rule one of Existance: Never, under any circumstances, underestimate stupidity. As it will still find ways to surprise you.
- Ariphaos
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1739
- Joined: 2005-10-21 02:48am
- Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA
- Contact:
There was an estimate, about a decade ago, that security related costs (not just break-ins and theft, but the locks you put on your doors, safes you buy, viruses, etc) cost the nation a total of some 1-2 trillion a year.
That is to say, even taking his arguments at face value, the $16 billion (like hell it's that low) a year losses for such things are only so mitigated by the comparatively extreme measures by which we can and do protect our assets. On the converse, the RIAA (or rather, its member companies, as the RIAA is basically the bad-publicity fall group for them) spends a pittance on things like DRM and such.
That is to say, even taking his arguments at face value, the $16 billion (like hell it's that low) a year losses for such things are only so mitigated by the comparatively extreme measures by which we can and do protect our assets. On the converse, the RIAA (or rather, its member companies, as the RIAA is basically the bad-publicity fall group for them) spends a pittance on things like DRM and such.
- Keevan_Colton
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 10355
- Joined: 2002-12-30 08:57pm
- Location: In the Land of Logic and Reason, two doors down from Lilliput and across the road from Atlantis...
- Contact:
Dont you know? All those insurgents learned their skills thanks to internet piracy.Durandal wrote:These guys must live in the alternate reality where Iraq is just peachy.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
They pirated Battlefield 2 and learned all about warfare?Keevan_Colton wrote:Dont you know? All those insurgents learned their skills thanks to internet piracy.
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
- General Soontir Fel
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 449
- Joined: 2005-07-05 02:08pm
I believe that comes of the (patently stupid) theory that every instance of piracy is a lost sale. In other words, ignorance of basic economics.SiegeTank wrote:Hundreds of billions a year? And yet despite these horrendous losses to piracy they're still churning profits? Precisely how much money does that whacko think they were making before Internet piracy came along? Surely he must have the CEO of Universal confused with the Sheik of Dubai or something.
Jesse Helms died on the 4th of July and the nation celebrated with fireworks, BBQs and a day off for everyone. -- Ed Brayton, Dispatches from the Culture Wars
"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
- General Zod
- Never Shuts Up
- Posts: 29211
- Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
- Location: The Clearance Rack
- Contact:
One study I remember seeing awhile back said that in order for things like piracy to make a dent (at least in the music industry), is that you had to pirate a song some 5,000 times before it would be equivalent to one lost album. If the same scale could be applied to videogames and movies, it can't be nearly as substantial as RIAA goons would lead us to believe.General_Soontir_Fel wrote:I believe that comes of the (patently stupid) theory that every instance of piracy is a lost sale. In other words, ignorance of basic economics.SiegeTank wrote:Hundreds of billions a year? And yet despite these horrendous losses to piracy they're still churning profits? Precisely how much money does that whacko think they were making before Internet piracy came along? Surely he must have the CEO of Universal confused with the Sheik of Dubai or something.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
- Ariphaos
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1739
- Joined: 2005-10-21 02:48am
- Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA
- Contact:
Well no, because people put more stock in the production value of a game or movie. $30 for a DVD vs $20 for its soundtrack? Or $60 for a game.General Zod wrote:One study I remember seeing awhile back said that in order for things like piracy to make a dent (at least in the music industry), is that you had to pirate a song some 5,000 times before it would be equivalent to one lost album. If the same scale could be applied to videogames and movies, it can't be nearly as substantial as RIAA goons would lead us to believe.
Piracy in games is a real problem - someone (on Slashdot I think) mentioned a publisher that produced an expansion pack for a game and, due to included antipiracy measures, it actually outsold the original game.
But ultimately, people see a lot more value in a good game or movie, so the figures will not carry over exactly.
- Dominus Atheos
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3904
- Joined: 2005-09-15 09:41pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
I realize this thread is long dead, but those idiots are floating the exact same argument again:
3 years later and they're still just as stupid as ever.Songwriters: piracy "dwarfs bank robbery," FBI must act
The Songwriters Guild of America has a message for the government: start prosecuting file-sharers, both criminally and civilly, because file-sharing is much worse than bank robbery.
"There are numerous economic crimes of much lesser magnitude (such as bank robbery) that are routinely and fully investigated, for which law enforcement agencies such as the FBI have significant resources," complains the Guild (PDF). "By contrast, online copyright piracy dwarfs bank robbery in causing economic losses, yet the FBI has limited criminal investigative interest and no civil mandate whatsoever to pursue this devastating economic harm. This inequity must change."
The Guild demands that the Department of Justice make criminal prosecutions of "willful copyright infringement" a higher priority; right now, the issue is not classed as a "serious" crime.
"Unfortunately, this misguided attitude allows domestic and foreign pirates to decimate an industry-intellectual property-where the United States enjoys a true global competitive advantage," says the group.
In addition, the federal government should do whatever it takes to start bringing civil copyright lawsuits against online offenders, something that is currently up to the private sector. This would require a change to the law; something along these lines was considered in the PRO-IP Act, but was ultimately scrapped before passage.
The Guild contends that its members simply aren't able to "sue thousands of infringers in the Federal Courts"-but the government could. (And should.)
The suggestions were all directed at the new Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator in the White House, Victoria Espinel, whose position was created by the PRO-IP Act. Espinel is currently working on her legally mandated Joint Strategic Plan to bring all the forces of government to bear on counterfeiters, pirates, and trade secret thieves. She asked for public comment-and wow, is she getting it.
Still, the Songwriters Guild had nothing on the MPAA, RIAA, and other "creative community organizations," all of whom suggested to Espinel (PDF) that good ways to deal with online piracy include using:
- Technologies to detect, monitor (and filter) traffic or specific files based on analysis of information such as protocols, file types, text description, metadata, file size and other "external" information;
- Content recognition technologies such as digital hashes, watermark detection, and fingerprinting technologies;
- Site blocking, redirection with automated warning systems/quarantine of repeat offending sites;
- Bandwidth shaping and throttling;
- Scanning infrastructure (the ability to subscribe to RSS-style data feeds as sites get new postings of content and links (for linking, streaming, and locker sites)
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
One of the main differences between music and game piracy is that artists can still make money by performing life at concerts and by merchandising.
There is no such option for games (well, with very rare exceptions in the case of merchandise).
Likewise, movies can still earn money by cinema, since it's arguable an experience that is not yet reproducable at home, especially not with pirated movies.
Video games rarely suffer quality loss due to piracy - with the exception that some games might extempt your from multiplayer.
Still, the claims that "one case of pirating equals one lost sale" is bullshit in either case - simply because people often don't have the money to buy all the stuff they download, or would be willing to spend their money on it if they could.
There is no such option for games (well, with very rare exceptions in the case of merchandise).
Likewise, movies can still earn money by cinema, since it's arguable an experience that is not yet reproducable at home, especially not with pirated movies.
Video games rarely suffer quality loss due to piracy - with the exception that some games might extempt your from multiplayer.
Still, the claims that "one case of pirating equals one lost sale" is bullshit in either case - simply because people often don't have the money to buy all the stuff they download, or would be willing to spend their money on it if they could.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
- Admiral Valdemar
- Outside Context Problem
- Posts: 31572
- Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
- Location: UK
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
I sure wish they were this motivated over combating white collar fraud. Banksters seem to be winning the game of dicking people over for a percentage, not the odd pirate.
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
I'd like for them to prove that they've lost a single red cent of revenue to piracy.
Oh, they probably have - but I'd like to see them forced to either come up with a single hard number backed by evidence, or shut the hell up already and stop trying to twist the legal system out of shape over this.
Oh, they probably have - but I'd like to see them forced to either come up with a single hard number backed by evidence, or shut the hell up already and stop trying to twist the legal system out of shape over this.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
Damn, you can't make this shit up.
Arguably, the primary role of the police is to enforce the law, and if their losses were really as extreme as they try to claim, they'd have some semblance of a point. However, we should also consider the fact that when resources are redirected from crime against property, it inevitably goes up, erodes confidence in the rule of law, and eventually endagers entire communities and turns them into dangerous gang-infested slums. Which is why all police forces ever had crimes against life and limb and property as their primary concern.
For example, why does the state put such strong emphasis on investigating murder? Costs often vastly outstrip the direct losses to society from the act of murder itself, but most states are not retarded enough to limit their view to the immediate costs: make murderers believe they can easily get away with it, and rule of law will begin to crumble. Your people will distrust you, police will have trouble investigating other kinds of crimes, etc.
It also applies to software piracy, of course, just like any other crime. It's prevalent because people believe they cannot be caught, and erodes rule of law just like any other nigh-unenforceable law: but like littering or illegal parking, it's merely a nuisance, so it's not considered a priority on the same level as violent crime. It's also mostly comitted by non-violent offenders who aren't very likely to actually go shoplifting or breaking-and-entering as the next step.
Arguably, the primary role of the police is to enforce the law, and if their losses were really as extreme as they try to claim, they'd have some semblance of a point. However, we should also consider the fact that when resources are redirected from crime against property, it inevitably goes up, erodes confidence in the rule of law, and eventually endagers entire communities and turns them into dangerous gang-infested slums. Which is why all police forces ever had crimes against life and limb and property as their primary concern.
For example, why does the state put such strong emphasis on investigating murder? Costs often vastly outstrip the direct losses to society from the act of murder itself, but most states are not retarded enough to limit their view to the immediate costs: make murderers believe they can easily get away with it, and rule of law will begin to crumble. Your people will distrust you, police will have trouble investigating other kinds of crimes, etc.
It also applies to software piracy, of course, just like any other crime. It's prevalent because people believe they cannot be caught, and erodes rule of law just like any other nigh-unenforceable law: but like littering or illegal parking, it's merely a nuisance, so it's not considered a priority on the same level as violent crime. It's also mostly comitted by non-violent offenders who aren't very likely to actually go shoplifting or breaking-and-entering as the next step.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
- Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Re:
They live in a world in which the only true crimes are those against absolute profit.Netko wrote:What can you say except that those people are nutters living with a distorted view of reality.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
-
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 6464
- Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
- Location: SoCal
Re: Re:
Studios and large content creators' profits are not the only things affected by piracy. For example, in the union production environment, employee health care and pension fund contributions from the studios etc are calculated in part based upon the income drawn by the products produced. So by taking content without paying fot it, you are not only striking a heroic blow against studio executives making their figures, but also against the paid-by-the-hour workers whom they employ.Patrick Degan wrote:They live in a world in which the only true crimes are those against absolute profit.Netko wrote:What can you say except that those people are nutters living with a distorted view of reality.
I figure most people probably feel that's fine - I mean, after all, who the fuck are these workers, to think that they should have access to pensions and health care plans? - but strictly in the interest of accuracy it's worth mentioning that it's individual workers getting fucked over along with the majors, so that people can enjoy valuable stuff that they don't feel like paying for.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
- Ryan Thunder
- Village Idiot
- Posts: 4139
- Joined: 2007-09-16 07:53pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Re:
That's assuming that anybody who takes that content would've bought even if it wasn't avaliable for piracy.
SDN Worlds 5: Sanctum
-
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 6464
- Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
- Location: SoCal
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
So what? The practical end of the problem is with people who steal rather than buy a ticket for (or copy of) stuff they would see. Or do you believe that such people do not exist, and therefore have no impact upon content creators and distributors?
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
But what proportion of pirates are they? Waving about total piracy figures is less than worthless because it incorporates people who wouldn't buy the product normally, falsely inflating the market. There is an impact, I am sure, but what is the impact? Furthermore, what is the impact by industry? Musicians see less of the profit than do film crew, so piracy affects them less, as an example.Kanastrous wrote:So what? The practical end of the problem is with people who steal rather than buy a ticket for (or copy of) stuff they would see. Or do you believe that such people do not exist, and therefore have no impact upon content creators and distributors?
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
Re: Re:
These magical losses these industries claim are most likely non-existent, given that real revenues are up, world-wide, in both the music and movie industries. Claims to the contrary are made-up bullshit, using piss-poor methodology when any research is done at all by the big companies.Kanastrous wrote:Studios and large content creators' profits are not the only things affected by piracy. For example, in the union production environment, employee health care and pension fund contributions from the studios etc are calculated in part based upon the income drawn by the products produced. So by taking content without paying fot it, you are not only striking a heroic blow against studio executives making their figures, but also against the paid-by-the-hour workers whom they employ.Patrick Degan wrote:They live in a world in which the only true crimes are those against absolute profit.Netko wrote:What can you say except that those people are nutters living with a distorted view of reality.
I figure most people probably feel that's fine - I mean, after all, who the fuck are these workers, to think that they should have access to pensions and health care plans? - but strictly in the interest of accuracy it's worth mentioning that it's individual workers getting fucked over along with the majors, so that people can enjoy valuable stuff that they don't feel like paying for.
Given that, claims of free riders and vast imaginary losses don't really hold up to scrutiny. This is a pure and simple case of rent-seeking on behalf of an industry that doesn't want to have to innovate and play by the rules of capitalism they hide behind.
All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...
-
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 6464
- Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
- Location: SoCal
Re: Police wasting time on bank robbery, should focus on pir
I don't believe the figures being thrown out by the studios. But by the same token I don't believe that people exercising their ability to take content free-of-charge have no significant impact upon the bottom line, either.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011