Zelda Timeline Theory (criticism, please!)

[Qwerty 42]

My brother is nearly to the relevant scene so I can check, but does anyone remember what was said in Twilight Princess during the spirit spring cutscene after the third fused shadow is obtained? There's a part which describes Ganon, iirc.

[Elaro]

The OoT legends say the "Hero of Time" would appear. After the Imprisoning War, "Hero of Time" was shortened to simply "Hero", so that the first Hero would always be remembered with his own title. But when the legends were jumbled together after the Flood, the Hero of Time became the only Hero.

Still doesn't explain where the "of Time" comes from after everyone forgets about it in ALttP.

Well, magic can studied in detail, since someone had to have figured how to infuse magic into the various magical items we've seen. Hell, the Twili had apparently learned and mastered everything there was to know about Shadow magic before their banishment. On the other hand, that still requires some sort of base to work from. To draw from the technology analogy again, if we were reduced to medieval technology levels, with our knowledge base almost completely wiped out, it'd take a very long time to work ourselves back up to current levels. Part of that would be due to a resurgence of religious zealotry, but in the case of Hyrule, we may be able to substitute with an anti-magic backlash (especially if magic is scapegoated as the cause of the Flood). Am I making sense?

The Twili were originally Hylians, if I understand TP correctly. And Hylians can do magic because they were made like that, which was my original point. They have a place to start, and yes, it does take them a flippin' long time to get back up to pre-Flood levels. But there's nothing that says ALttP takes place closely after WW. So you're arguing that it would take a long time to rebuild their knowledge. I agree, and I add that they were given a little bump in the back by what was left from pre-Flood ruins.

As I understand it, for multiple timelines to exist within one multiverse, each timeline occupies its own dimension. Which means that a new dimension is created every time the timeline splits. I'm sure that violates a major law of physics or two, which admittedly can be worked around with deus ex machina, but I dislike using deus ex machina.

In a world where a grown man can use a chicken to glide, I don't think the laws of physics are quite the same as ours. And I'm not sure that the "parallel probability-universes" is impossible in ours. Of course, since you claim that it violates a law or two of physics, it's up to you to say which ones.

Well, you might as well wonder why all the Heroes are named Link, or why people named Ganondorf tend to be evil megalomaniacs. Destiny is a bitch.

Point. But maybe there's a lot more Links and Ganondorfs than is let on, and just a minority of them turn good/evil. But yeah, point.

And just to clarify, you're saying that the paper Link reads was written during the time of the AoL backstory, right?

Yes.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. But did pre-Flood Hylians know the full details of OoT? As I recall, the only OoT details in WW are the mentioning of the Hero of Time by name, and the pictures of the OoT Sages. The portraits can easily be explained away as having been archived somewhere, forgotten about, and then rediscovered by some plucky archaeologist with an unhealthy interest in ancient legends.

Why in the nine hells would seven beautiful (and probably expensive) vitrals not be installed in a wall, but put into storage for a plucky archaeologist to discover instead? And if you argue interracial tensions, why weren't the vitrals destroyed outright? If the anger is bad enough to prevent the Hyrulians from properly installing the portraits, what could compel them to keep them around? Even if they do, why would these relics be installed in a secret chamber instead of put on display for all to see? Your hypothesis is even more unlikely than my "scrolls about different events are interpreted as one" hypothesis.

Also, the legend of WW tells us that the Hero of Time travelled through time and that he was wielding the Master Sword. That's a lot more details (and a lot more accurate) than the "there was no Hero who sealed Ganon away" legend from ALttP. (Although the story of the Knights protecting the Sages also sounds suspiciously like the final battle of FSA, according to this)

They thought the surviving descendants were Hylian. Bloodlines do die out, after all.

Yeah, but why eight sacrifices? If they knew, as you say, who the Sages were with a little more accuracy than they let on in the game, why doesn't Agahnim count Princess Zelda as one of the descendants of the Sages?

Regardless, how often does the average Hylian see a non-Hylian Sage? The old Hylian accounts—if written during a time of relative interracial harmony—might not even specify the races of the Sages, taking it for granted that people would know the Sages weren't all Hylian. Imagine the uproar that would cause, when newly discovered evidence suggests that there was a Gerudo Sage, of all things.

The glass portraits clearly show they did, in fact, take note of the different races of the Sages. But the people of Hyrule probably didn't point out the different races when they told the story to their kids, so I agree with you there.

Alright, amended to "Kokiri are insular and aside from those called by destiny, don't concern themselves with Hylian affairs." Remember, the Great Deku Tree misled the Kokiri about the world outside the forest. Depending on whether or not the Kokiri Sages agreed with the Great Deku Tree's reasons for isolating the other Kokiri from the world, the Sages may very well be the only Kokiri to interact with the Hylians. And Kokiri, without knowing their ages, are virtually indistinguishable from Hylians.

How did the Great Deku Tree mislead them? But still, from whence did the Wind Sage come from, if the Kokiri weren't there in ALttP?

I'm saying that the bat thing that flew out of Agahnim was Ganon. Agahnim, during the battle at Turtle Rock, was possessed by Ganon. When he loses, that bat thing flies out and knocks a hole into the top of the pyramid. When Link follows, he finds Ganon. Ergo, the bat thing was Ganon.

Again, what game did you bloody fucking play? Because I don't remember doing battle with Agahnim at Turtle Rock. I remember doing it at Ganon's Tower.

Point about forcibly extracting the Triforce. But anyway, it seems to be possible to willingly surrender the Triforce, since people had to get Wisdom and Courage somehow to fragment them, especially when Power was inconveniently located inside Ganon. TP seems to indicate that if left alone, Courage will pass from Hero to Hero, so at some point a Hero gave up Courage.

Uh, yeah. Your point?

But her right hand specifically? And not once, but twice? If she looked at her hands right after being healed, sure. But later on she stares at her right hand again. There was obviously something up with that hand.

Keep in mind, Midna is sad about Zelda's sacrifice. The first time might have been for sensation, the second probably to remind herself what was the cost of her continued existence. Or something. I think it would've been mentioned more obviously if something as major as the Triforce of Wisdom was given to Midna. I remain unconvinced.

The only beings we've seen sense when someone has the Triforce are either skilled mages who also bear the other pieces, or holy spirits. Not a whole lot of holy spirits in LttP, which leaves the mages. Agahnim didn't have Power to begin with, so he's irrelevant. Assuming Zelda actually bore Wisdom rather than simply holding on to it (like pre-LoZ Zelda), she might have sensed Courage, but we don't know the extent of her magic. Ganon would have, but he wouldn't need to say anything about Courage except that he was going to kill Link for it.

I'm sorry, Ganon says nothing about acquiring the Triforce of Courage from Link. He says that "I will never give you the Triforce. I will destroy you and make my wish to conquer both Light and Dark Worlds come true without delay." Which implies that Ganon is waiting for Link to be dead before he makes his wish. As in, he doesn't want it to go into Link and Zelda, because he learned from his previous OoT experience.

Plus, if he wanted to kill Link for his Triforce of Courage, would he have said that he "will never give [Link] the Triforce"?

Something along those lines, and to date the Sacred Realm can only be accessed via portals. Based on that and the fact that the Dark World is a twisted mirror of Hyrule in LttP and FSA, I think the Sacred Realm was sealed into a pocket dimension.

Okay. So it was a part of Hyrule, then was sealed into a pocket dimension.

Dude, Zoras can use magic. Besides, those aren't really fireballs. Not like those centaur things on Death Mountain. Or even the Fire Rod.

Okay. The ALttP Zoras shoot balls of unknown magical energy out of their mouths. Still not the type of Zora that was the Sage of Earth.

Assuming that Ganon's minions don't go back into hibernation after his defeat (the Deku Scrubs in FSA say Ganon's power was what woke them from their slumber) or that the suddenly pure Sacred Realm doesn't kill them outright, the Hylians sure as hell won't take kindly to Moblins occupying the Sacred Realm. They shouldn't have too much trouble mopping up Ganon's forces, since Link's already killed the bosses. I mean, the army has to be good for something, right?

The idea I got from the end of ALttP was that all the people in the Dark World were transposed to the Light World. Meanwhile, the Sacred Realm became insubstancial, like in OoT.

Well, author intent has nothing to do with what I was getting at, which was that the MM opening read like a story, kinda like "you know that legend about the Hero of Time? I'll tell you what happened to him afterwards..."

That's it! That's exactly it! "This is the legend of the hero of Time, as kept by the Royal Family. The events you're about to see is what happened after that legend." That's what I meant.

People get uppity and go after the Triforce from time to time, after all. Few of them actually are worthy of it. We know that Ganondorf isn't the only person to seek the Triforce. If nothing else, Ganondorf might have done it himself during the events that led up to the Flood, deciding that a power boost was worth having to hunt down the other two pieces.

Uh, see, now you're inventing stuff to suit your theory instead of looking at the evidence, drawing conclusions, and then making stuff up to fill the gaps.

[Darth Yoshi]

Still doesn't explain where the "of Time" comes from after everyone forgets about it in ALttP.

Nothing an archaeologist like Shad can't fix, if the suffix was in fact forgotten.

The Twili were originally Hylians, if I understand TP correctly. And Hylians can do magic because they were made like that, which was my original point. They have a place to start, and yes, it does take them a flippin' long time to get back up to pre-Flood levels. But there's nothing that says ALttP takes place closely after WW. So you're arguing that it would take a long time to rebuild their knowledge. I agree, and I add that they were given a little bump in the back by what was left from pre-Flood ruins.

Were they? As I understood it, the Twili were always a separate race from the Hylians. Although I must admit that "tribe" and "race" are two separate things.

Hylians were created with the greatest potential for magic (supposedly; that might very well be Hylian chest-thumping), but not necessarily the knowledge. Which basically means that post-Flood ruins would be useless to New Hyrule, due to the language barrier, without the requisite magic knowledge to magically translate.

In a world where a grown man can use a chicken to glide, I don't think the laws of physics are quite the same as ours. And I'm not sure that the "parallel probability-universes" is impossible in ours. Of course, since you claim that it violates a law or two of physics, it's up to you to say which ones.

Granted, but we still assume physics work the same except when they don't. Anyway, creating a new dimension violates conservation of mass and energy, assuming the Three used up most the "void-stuff" when they created Hyrule, with the alternate dimensions that formed at the same time (Termina, possibly Twilight Realm) using up the rest.

Why in the nine hells would seven beautiful (and probably expensive) vitrals not be installed in a wall, but put into storage for a plucky archaeologist to discover instead? And if you argue interracial tensions, why weren't the vitrals destroyed outright? If the anger is bad enough to prevent the Hyrulians from properly installing the portraits, what could compel them to keep them around? Even if they do, why would these relics be installed in a secret chamber instead of put on display for all to see? Your hypothesis is even more unlikely than my "scrolls about different events are interpreted as one" hypothesis.

The WW portraits were made centuries after, using sketches that were found after being archived away and lost when Hyrule Castle invariably gets conquered or destroyed.

Also, the legend of WW tells us that the Hero of Time travelled through time and that he was wielding the Master Sword. That's a lot more details (and a lot more accurate) than the "there was no Hero who sealed Ganon away" legend from ALttP. (Although the story of the Knights protecting the Sages also sounds suspiciously like the final battle of FSA, according to this)

What? You're misrepresenting the legend. Hell, it specifically says that the Hero will appear during Hyrule's time of need.

There's only a superficial resemblance between the legend and FSA, and that's only if you count Link as a Knight.

Yeah, but why eight sacrifices? If they knew, as you say, who the Sages were with a little more accuracy than they let on in the game, why doesn't Agahnim count Princess Zelda as one of the descendants of the Sages?

The seventh Sage has always been separate from the other six. In OoT, Saria doesn't know anything about the seventh Sage, other than basically "s/he exists somewhere, or so the legend says". In TP, the Mirror Chamber only has six Sage emblems. In WW, Zelda is the only Sage without her own Sage portrait. Zelda seems to be Hylian Royalty first, and Sage second. That a Royal is also a Sage might not even be common knowledge.

How did the Great Deku Tree mislead them? But still, from whence did the Wind Sage come from, if the Kokiri weren't there in ALttP?

The Kokiri believe that they will die the instant they leave the forest. Obviously that is not the case. Which isn't to say they won't die, since the world sucks, but they won't magically drop dead like they think.

Again, what game did you bloody fucking play? Because I don't remember doing battle with Agahnim at Turtle Rock. I remember doing it at Ganon's Tower.

Brain fart. Got my locales mixed up. My bad.

Uh, yeah. Your point?

Just that you don't need all three pieces present to extract one.

Keep in mind, Midna is sad about Zelda's sacrifice. The first time might have been for sensation, the second probably to remind herself what was the cost of her continued existence. Or something. I think it would've been mentioned more obviously if something as major as the Triforce of Wisdom was given to Midna. I remain unconvinced.

Again, she stares at the back of her right hand twice. You know, that place where people bear the Triforce (except for lefties like Link).

I'm sorry, Ganon says nothing about acquiring the Triforce of Courage from Link. He says that "I will never give you the Triforce. I will destroy you and make my wish to conquer both Light and Dark Worlds come true without delay." Which implies that Ganon is waiting for Link to be dead before he makes his wish. As in, he doesn't want it to go into Link and Zelda, because he learned from his previous OoT experience.

Plus, if he wanted to kill Link for his Triforce of Courage, would he have said that he "will never give [Link] the Triforce"?

He's saying he won't let Link reassemble the pieces and obtain the True Force.

Okay. The ALttP Zoras shoot balls of unknown magical energy out of their mouths. Still not the type of Zora that was the Sage of Earth.

In nearly all cases of magic, power is focused into either the hands or some supporting item. Considering that LttP Zoras are mostly submerged when they fire off that attack, I'm inclined to say they do the same, opening their mouths for incantations.

The idea I got from the end of ALttP was that all the people in the Dark World were transposed to the Light World. Meanwhile, the Sacred Realm became insubstancial, like in OoT.

Then TP Ganondorf would have a fair amount of trouble conquering it. And how was the OoT Sacred Realm insubstantial? The Chamber of the Sages seemed plenty corporeal to me.

That's it! That's exactly it! "This is the legend of the hero of Time, as kept by the Royal Family. The events you're about to see is what happened after that legend." That's what I meant.

The difference is that I'm saying MM is a second legend, which I assumed to be a Hylian one.

Uh, see, now you're inventing stuff to suit your theory instead of looking at the evidence, drawing conclusions, and then making stuff up to fill the gaps.

I'm extrapolating based on precedent. Except for the "Ganondorf split the Triforce himself" bit. Yeah, that was pulled from my ass.

[Shadowtraveler]

The ALttP Zoras shoot fireballs out of their mouths. So, they're not the dolphin-like Zoras, of which one was a Sage of Earth.

Just to add to this, Oracle of Ages explains that they're known as River Zora by the dolphin-like ones. Considering that there are "River" Zora in Past Labyrina, which is 400 years before Present Labyrina, it means that OoA/S take place somewhere after ALttP.

Heck, if you assume Oracle Link is LttP Link, it actually fits nicely with the ending to the Oracle games and the common belief that Link's Awakening takes place after A Link to the Past.

In a world where a grown man can use a chicken to glide, I don't think the laws of physics are quite the same as ours.

Not that it's relevent, but it's possible all Cuccos are descended from the Flying Roosters mentioned in Link's Awakening (there's evidence that some of Koholint Island is based on actual in-universe things).

[Elaro]

Nothing an archaeologist like Shad can't fix, if the suffix was in fact forgotten.

An archeologist finding the proper suffix is not going to change the legend. The main difference between ALttP's version of how Ganon was imprisoned and WW's version is that ALttP puts a lot more emphasis on the Sages and doesn't mention the hero at all, except to say he wasn't there, while WW puts a lot more emphasis on the Hero, and don't mention the Sages (in the intro. They are visually mentioned in the game). It's not because some obsessed archeologist found some evidence suggesting that, oh yes, there had been a Hero (of Time, incidentally) that everyone is going to just forget about the Seven Sages, to conform to WW's account. However, if it was the other way around, if the people had the story of the evil Ganon and the Hero of Time, then slowly the legend changed so that it was a (normal) hero, then heroes, then soldiers (probably helped by royal propaganda) who sealed Ganon away until some obsessed archeologist found out that, oh, it was the Seven Sages who sealed Ganon away, then you have ALttP's account. Which one is the more believable?

Were they? As I understood it, the Twili were always a separate race from the Hylians. Although I must admit that "tribe" and "race" are two separate things.

As long as we agree that the capacity for magic is innate, then there is very little difference.

Hylians were created with the greatest potential for magic (supposedly; that might very well be Hylian chest-thumping), but not necessarily the knowledge. Which basically means that post-Flood ruins would be useless to New Hyrule, due to the language barrier, without the requisite magic knowledge to magically translate.

I meant that the ruins would at least show that magic could be possible, so that would give the idea to try to do magic, which would lead to rebuilding their magical knowledge.

Granted, but we still assume physics work the same except when they don't. Anyway, creating a new dimension violates conservation of mass and energy, assuming the Three used up most the "void-stuff" when they created Hyrule, with the alternate dimensions that formed at the same time (Termina, possibly Twilight Realm) using up the rest.

Assuming conservation of mass and energy is a valid law in Hyrule-verse. Which doesn't really seem to be the case. See the "summoners" from WW. And a whole slew of monsters who can do magic indefinitely.

The WW portraits were made centuries after, using sketches that were found after being archived away and lost when Hyrule Castle invariably gets conquered or destroyed.

Why was the Master Sword relocated from the Lost Woods to the newly reconstructed Hyrule Castle?

What? You're misrepresenting the legend. Hell, it specifically says that the Hero will appear during Hyrule's time of need.

There's only a superficial resemblance between the legend and FSA, and that's only if you count Link as a Knight.

I'm talking backstory. And, keep in mind, there were four Links in FSA, so people could've easily confused them for Knights, especially since the Knights in the game have matching colors to the Four Links. Also, Zelda says that

If we combine our powers,
we may yet be able to seal
Ganon away from the world!

Thus setting up the stage for ALttP. Yeah? Yeah.

The seventh Sage has always been separate from the other six. In OoT, Saria doesn't know anything about the seventh Sage, other than basically "s/he exists somewhere, or so the legend says". In TP, the Mirror Chamber only has six Sage emblems. In WW, Zelda is the only Sage without her own Sage portrait. Zelda seems to be Hylian Royalty first, and Sage second. That a Royal is also a Sage might not even be common knowledge.

So you're admitting that the people of ALttP didn't know who the Sages were. You know, I'd also like to know where your post-ALttP archeologist finds his OoT-era stuff, because ALttP-Hyrule seems pretty well explored to me.

The Kokiri believe that they will die the instant they leave the forest. Obviously that is not the case. Which isn't to say they won't die, since the world sucks, but they won't magically drop dead like they think.

Again, whence did the Wind Sage come?

Just that you don't need all three pieces present to extract one.

I said that you can't forcibly extract a piece of the Triforce out of someone without all the pieces present, not that someone can't willingly give the Triforce to someone else.

He's saying he won't let Link reassemble the pieces and obtain the True Force.

You have absolutely NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that Link has the Triforce of Courage. All the evidence you have that Ganon doesn't have the full Triforce is semantics, an ambiguous Triforce animation, and a game (if Ganon had gotten his whole wish, we wouldn't have much of a game). Considering the evidence, and only the evidence, the way to explain this is either: a) Ganon had made his wish to rule the world, and the Triforce gave him the Dark World to rule (as per this(ctrl+F for Triforce, 6th down))or b) Ganon hadn't made his wish yet, and was waiting to finish off those who he thought would receive the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom (the Hero and Princess Zelda).

In nearly all cases of magic, power is focused into either the hands or some supporting item. Considering that LttP Zoras are mostly submerged when they fire off that attack, I'm inclined to say they do the same, opening their mouths for incantations.

Okay. I was referring to the fact that they have huge mouths, and that it was impossible for a sea-Zora to open their mouths that wide. I wasn't clear.

Then TP Ganondorf would have a fair amount of trouble conquering it. And how was the OoT Sacred Realm insubstantial? The Chamber of the Sages seemed plenty corporeal to me.

I was going on the "Cursing Ganondorf" scene, but now that I think about it, that scene had a lot of similarities with scenes that were instances of magical communication (like when Rauru makes his announcement when you beat all the dungeons, or when Zelda gives her message when you get the Ocarina), like the fog-white background. So, okay, the Sacred Realm is substantial, you're right.

The difference is that I'm saying MM is a second legend, which I assumed to be a Hylian one.

That's a matter of interpretation. Well, it seems we're gridlocked on that issue.

I'd like to resurrect my "Falling of the Great Sea makes geographical changes" hypothesis. I think the WW Hyrule Castle is built on top of the Temple of Time, and that Ganon's Tower was built on Death Mountain (where it would eventually become Hera's Tower in ALttP.) The falling water and subsequent erosion destroyed the aboveground levels of the castle and the village, eroded the softer parts of the Hyrulean ground (which is why we see ridges all over the place in ALttP), and drowned (killed) the Kokiri Forest situated between Zora's Fountain and Lake Hylia, leaving only the Forest Temple, aka the Eastern Palace, behind. The water has no effect on the desert, because lack of water is not what makes a desert a desert. So, on the whole, the Falling causes non-superficial changes to the landscape. It also explains why the Master Sword seemingly changes place between WW and ALttP (it doesn't).

[Darth Yoshi]

An archeologist finding the proper suffix is not going to change the legend. The main difference between ALttP's version of how Ganon was imprisoned and WW's version is that ALttP puts a lot more emphasis on the Sages and doesn't mention the hero at all, except to say he wasn't there, while WW puts a lot more emphasis on the Hero, and don't mention the Sages (in the intro. They are visually mentioned in the game). It's not because some obsessed archeologist found some evidence suggesting that, oh yes, there had been a Hero (of Time, incidentally) that everyone is going to just forget about the Seven Sages, to conform to WW's account. However, if it was the other way around, if the people had the story of the evil Ganon and the Hero of Time, then slowly the legend changed so that it was a (normal) hero, then heroes, then soldiers (probably helped by royal propaganda) who sealed Ganon away until some obsessed archeologist found out that, oh, it was the Seven Sages who sealed Ganon away, then you have ALttP's account. Which one is the more believable?

I'm working from the mindset of minimal deus ex machina. That is, if there is no explicit deus ex machina, then there is no deus ex machina and some other explanation is required. In WW, all we know for certain is that the Great Sea collapsed onto Hyrule. The wording of the King's wish doesn't say anything about removing the water afterward, so I'm forced to conclude that the Great Sea remains until someone makes another wish to expose the land once more. But that's deus ex machina, and without confirmation of that I'll discount it. Ergo there aren't any post PH games that take place in Hyrule. To quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

I meant that the ruins would at least show that magic could be possible, so that would give the idea to try to do magic, which would lead to rebuilding their magical knowledge.

Well, you'd need to be able to understand any writing in the ruins first. Which brings us back to my original point, that post-Flood Hyrule most likely wouldn't understand pre-Flood Hylian.

Assuming conservation of mass and energy is a valid law in Hyrule-verse. Which doesn't really seem to be the case. See the "summoners" from WW. And a whole slew of monsters who can do magic indefinitely.

Are you saying that Wizzrobes are creating monsters from nothing? They seemed to be warping in reinforcements from elsewhere. And I'm not sure how prolonged magic use refutes conservation of mass and energy.

Why was the Master Sword relocated from the Lost Woods to the newly reconstructed Hyrule Castle?

To keep it on hand in case of an emergency. You have to admit that it's not exactly convenient to send the Hero out into the middle of nowhere to get his most important weapon. And I'm sure you'll agree with me when I say that TP Temple of Time isn't OoT Temple of Time, so the sword has been moved before.

I'm talking backstory. And, keep in mind, there were four Links in FSA, so people could've easily confused them for Knights, especially since the Knights in the game have matching colors to the Four Links. Also, Zelda says that

If we combine our powers,
we may yet be able to seal
Ganon away from the world!

Thus setting up the stage for ALttP. Yeah? Yeah.

Except FSA Ganon was sealed into the Four Sword, not the Dark World.

So you're admitting that the people of ALttP didn't know who the Sages were. You know, I'd also like to know where your post-ALttP archeologist finds his OoT-era stuff, because ALttP-Hyrule seems pretty well explored to me.

I'm saying that they didn't know who the seventh Sage was. As I recall, even in WW the seventh Sage isn't named. As far as thorough exploration goes, the plethora of hidden grottos and caves would suggest otherwise.

Again, whence did the Wind Sage come?

What exactly are you asking here? Are you asking why the Wind Sage is Kokiri, or are you asking where the position of Wind Sage came from? For the former, he got chosen by destiny. For the latter, the Wind Sage was originally assigned to protect the Four Sword's Wind Element, eventually either replacing one of the established Sage positions, or being elevated to Sage status alongside them.

I said that you can't forcibly extract a piece of the Triforce out of someone without all the pieces present, not that someone can't willingly give the Triforce to someone else.

Ah.

You have absolutely NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that Link has the Triforce of Courage. All the evidence you have that Ganon doesn't have the full Triforce is semantics, an ambiguous Triforce animation, and a game (if Ganon had gotten his whole wish, we wouldn't have much of a game). Considering the evidence, and only the evidence, the way to explain this is either: a) Ganon had made his wish to rule the world, and the Triforce gave him the Dark World to rule (as per this(ctrl+F for Triforce, 6th down))or b) Ganon hadn't made his wish yet, and was waiting to finish off those who he thought would receive the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom (the Hero and Princess Zelda).

Of course, that still leaves the problem of why Ganon didn't just kill Zelda. After breaking the seal, the maidens and Zelda were simply loose ends. Better to kill them and be done with it. As you said, after all, if you kill Zelda, then Wisdom probably won't go anywhere.

Now that I think about it, that's actually evidence in my favor, since pre-WW Ganondorf had clearly figured out that keeping Sages around was bad, which was why he killed the Earth and Wind Sages.

Okay. I was referring to the fact that they have huge mouths, and that it was impossible for a sea-Zora to open their mouths that wide. I wasn't clear.

Well, you've got me there. The only responses I have for that are either Zora armor uses Jaffa helmets—which, aside from being a weak argument to begin with since TP Zora helmets don't seem to be Jaffa helmets, doesn't address why the Zora would need to open it to perform a spell—or that it's a graphical limitation of the SNES and their mouths aren't really that big (also a weak argument and contradicts my claim that LttP Zoras are wearing armor).

That's a matter of interpretation. Well, it seems we're gridlocked on that issue.

True enough.

I'd like to resurrect my "Falling of the Great Sea makes geographical changes" hypothesis. I think the WW Hyrule Castle is built on top of the Temple of Time, and that Ganon's Tower was built on Death Mountain (where it would eventually become Hera's Tower in ALttP.) The falling water and subsequent erosion destroyed the aboveground levels of the castle and the village, eroded the softer parts of the Hyrulean ground (which is why we see ridges all over the place in ALttP), and drowned (killed) the Kokiri Forest situated between Zora's Fountain and Lake Hylia, leaving only the Forest Temple, aka the Eastern Palace, behind. The water has no effect on the desert, because lack of water is not what makes a desert a desert. So, on the whole, the Falling causes non-superficial changes to the landscape. It also explains why the Master Sword seemingly changes place between WW and ALttP (it doesn't).

The problem is, there are no frames of reference underwater, for either direction or distance. If we assumed anyway that you face north when you land in the pool because you enter the portal at the Tower of the Gods from the south, then that puts Ganon's tower north of Hyrule Castle, not east like Death Mountain would be. If we also assume that distance is scaled the same as above water, then Ganon's Tower is also too close to Hyrule Castle to be on Death Mountain. So regardless of everything else, Ganon's Tower isn't the Tower of Hera.

[Elaro]

I'm working from the mindset of minimal deus ex machina. That is, if there is no explicit deus ex machina, then there is no deus ex machina and some other explanation is required. In WW, all we know for certain is that the Great Sea collapsed onto Hyrule. The wording of the King's wish doesn't say anything about removing the water afterward, so I'm forced to conclude that the Great Sea remains until someone makes another wish to expose the land once more. But that's deus ex machina, and without confirmation of that I'll discount it. Ergo there aren't any post PH games that take place in Hyrule. To quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

The only problem with that, of course, is that it's not impossible for the gods to interpret "giving hope" as "draining the sea, thus making the land habitable again, thus giving hope to the children of founding a "new" Hyrule". And I know that Holmesian principle, because that's what I used to determine the OoT-WW-ALttP order. The Triforce was separated in OoT, reunited in WW, and was whole in ALttP. The Hero of Time is present in the oral tradition of the people of WW, yet is completely absent from the oral tradition of ALttP. As I have tried to point out, it is an infinitesimal likelyhood (aka an impossibility) that the Hero of Time, after hundreds of years, would re-enter the legend of Ganon's Imprisonement at the detriment of the Sages. (Why? Social inertia, skepticism, that sort of thing). Ergo, it must be OoT-WW-ALttP because OoT-ALttP-WW is impossible.

Well, you'd need to be able to understand any writing in the ruins first. Which brings us back to my original point, that post-Flood Hyrule most likely wouldn't understand pre-Flood Hylian.

I meant that they would see illustrations of people doing magic. Maybe pictograms. Or maybe even just visible magical effects that might tip off the post-WW habitants of Hyrule that there might be magic to be discovered.

Are you saying that Wizzrobes are creating monsters from nothing? They seemed to be warping in reinforcements from elsewhere. And I'm not sure how prolonged magic use refutes conservation of mass and energy.

Because magic is a type of energy? And this type of energy is converted to other other types of energy or matter when "using magic spells"? And a unlimited amount of "magic using" would mean something somewhere isn't being converted as it should. But, this is just an educated guess. I don't really know how LoZ magic works.

But, really, I think it's absurd to think "their physics works just like ours except when it doesn't" about a fantasy setting. It makes a lot more sense to think that "their physics doesn't work like ours except when it does." Or just "sometimes it works like ours, and sometimes not", but I understand that's not very helpful. (What does "SoD" stand for?)

To keep it on hand in case of an emergency. You have to admit that it's not exactly convenient to send the Hero out into the middle of nowhere to get his most important weapon. And I'm sure you'll agree with me when I say that TP Temple of Time isn't OoT Temple of Time, so the sword has been moved before.

I think that it is, in fact, the "same" Temple of Time. Only that a whole lot of time has passed between OoT and TP.

Except FSA Ganon was sealed into the Four Sword, not the Dark World.

Really? Ah fuck.

I'm saying that they didn't know who the seventh Sage was. As I recall, even in WW the seventh Sage isn't named. As far as thorough exploration goes, the plethora of hidden grottos and caves would suggest otherwise.

That's kinda what I meant. We can explore a heckuva lot of caves, and we haven't found a single historic thing.

What exactly are you asking here? Are you asking why the Wind Sage is Kokiri, or are you asking where the position of Wind Sage came from? For the former, he got chosen by destiny. For the latter, the Wind Sage was originally assigned to protect the Four Sword's Wind Element, eventually either replacing one of the established Sage positions, or being elevated to Sage status alongside them.

I'm asking where are the Kokiri, from which the Wind Sage was called. And secondly, Wind Sage guarding the Wind Element? Well, no. The Wind Sage is the one who prays to the Wind God.

Of course, that still leaves the problem of why Ganon didn't just kill Zelda. After breaking the seal, the maidens and Zelda were simply loose ends. Better to kill them and be done with it. As you said, after all, if you kill Zelda, then Wisdom probably won't go anywhere.

Probably because he needed to keep the eight maidens alive so that their life force could continue to bore a hole through the seal keeping Ganon in the Dark World. Make sense?

Now that I think about it, that's actually evidence in my favor, since pre-WW Ganondorf had clearly figured out that keeping Sages around was bad, which was why he killed the Earth and Wind Sages.

That's because he didn't need to keep them around. And besides, the maidens aren't Sages. They're only descendants of Sages.

The problem is, there are no frames of reference underwater, for either direction or distance. If we assumed anyway that you face north when you land in the pool because you enter the portal at the Tower of the Gods from the south, then that puts Ganon's tower north of Hyrule Castle, not east like Death Mountain would be. If we also assume that distance is scaled the same as above water, then Ganon's Tower is also too close to Hyrule Castle to be on Death Mountain. So regardless of everything else, Ganon's Tower isn't the Tower of Hera.

Well, in ALttP in the Dark World the sun sets behind the mountain, so maybe in ALttP's map West is up and East is down, so that would put Death Mountain north of the Master Sword. As to the distance, you have a point. Maybe Hera's tower is what remained of the rubble of Ganon's tower plus what remained of the Tower of the Gods, which had drifted on the Sea.

[Darth Yoshi]

The only problem with that, of course, is that it's not impossible for the gods to interpret "giving hope" as "draining the sea, thus making the land habitable again, thus giving hope to the children of founding a "new" Hyrule". And I know that Holmesian principle, because that's what I used to determine the OoT-WW-ALttP order. The Triforce was separated in OoT, reunited in WW, and was whole in ALttP. The Hero of Time is present in the oral tradition of the people of WW, yet is completely absent from the oral tradition of ALttP. As I have tried to point out, it is an infinitesimal likelyhood (aka an impossibility) that the Hero of Time, after hundreds of years, would re-enter the legend of Ganon's Imprisonement at the detriment of the Sages. (Why? Social inertia, skepticism, that sort of thing). Ergo, it must be OoT-WW-ALttP because OoT-ALttP-WW is impossible.

Well, you're presuming to speak for the gods there, which is never a good idea. For all you know, enabling the Hero to permanently kill off Ganondorf—thus eliminating the possibility of him ushering in another dark age—is how the gods fulfilled that wish. We can only comment on what we see the gods do, which is collapse the sea onto Hyrule.

Frankly, it is equally unlikely that New Hyrule would use the ancient names for landmarks. Even assuming that New Hyrule learns the ancient names, the fact is that by the time any translation is done they'll have already given the landmarks new names, names that most likely won't be the old names. The names of the Chosen can be written off as destiny, but places? Not so much.

I meant that they would see illustrations of people doing magic. Maybe pictograms. Or maybe even just visible magical effects that might tip off the post-WW habitants of Hyrule that there might be magic to be discovered.

Point, though depending how science and magic progress they might chalk it off as ancient superstition, much like nobody believes that Anubis judges your soul by weighing it against Ma'at.

Because magic is a type of energy? And this type of energy is converted to other other types of energy or matter when "using magic spells"? And a unlimited amount of "magic using" would mean something somewhere isn't being converted as it should. But, this is just an educated guess. I don't really know how LoZ magic works.

I tend to view magic as mental exertion, and when you consume magic points you're putting strain on your mind. Admittedly, this is nothing more that personal interpretation.

But, really, I think it's absurd to think "their physics works just like ours except when it doesn't" about a fantasy setting. It makes a lot more sense to think that "their physics doesn't work like ours except when it does." Or just "sometimes it works like ours, and sometimes not", but I understand that's not very helpful. (What does "SoD" stand for?)

Suspension of disbelief.

The problem with assuming that physics don't work like ours except when it does, is that it eliminates a necessary frame of reference. There's no way to extrapolate things that aren't explicitly shown, since you're assuming that reality is wrong by default. For example, Link wouldn't suffocate or starve or die of dehydration if trapped in a cave, because we've never seen it happen. Obviously, that's retarded.

I think that it is, in fact, the "same" Temple of Time. Only that a whole lot of time has passed between OoT and TP.

Impossible. The location of the two temples don't match at all, unless you want to suggest that between OoT and TP both the desert and Lake Hylia migrated north. Way north. Even suggesting that the compass drifted between the two eras won't work, because the movement of the sun remains the same in both. And if I really want to nitpick, the interior layout of the two temples don't match, since the OoT temple doesn't have a stairway behind the Door of Time like in the TP temple.

That's kinda what I meant. We can explore a heckuva lot of caves, and we haven't found a single historic thing.

Sure we have. Granted, not murals depicting the last stand of the Knights of Hyrule or anything, but currency, ammo, pots, and things like that are valuable archaelogical finds. And just because a find has been made doesn't mean that it'll immediately be understood. Take the owl statues in TP. They've been well documented for at least a generation, but nobody could make any sense of it.

I'm asking where are the Kokiri, from which the Wind Sage was called. And secondly, Wind Sage guarding the Wind Element? Well, no. The Wind Sage is the one who prays to the Wind God.

The Kokiri are living in a section of the Lost Woods that wasn't shown on the map. You know, magical woods where people become magically lost and all that?

Hey man, I'm just trying to offer up an explanation of why we have two Sages in WW whose positions have never been mentioned before or since. Even TP, which only deals with the Sages collectively, uses the OoT Sage crests.

Probably because he needed to keep the eight maidens alive so that their life force could continue to bore a hole through the seal keeping Ganon in the Dark World. Make sense?

It'd make more sense to undo the seal completely, since otherwise he'd be drawn back into the Dark World as soon as one of the maidens died. Of course, this hinges on my understanding of the seal being correct, with the seal only affecting Ganon specifically (the fact that other portals to the Dark World can be used prior to Zelda's banishment supports this).

That's because he didn't need to keep them around. And besides, the maidens aren't Sages. They're only descendants of Sages.

My point is, the maidens have the power of the Sages in their blood. That power tends to give Ganondorf trouble, especially once the Hero becomes active.

Well, in ALttP in the Dark World the sun sets behind the mountain, so maybe in ALttP's map West is up and East is down, so that would put Death Mountain north of the Master Sword. As to the distance, you have a point. Maybe Hera's tower is what remained of the rubble of Ganon's tower plus what remained of the Tower of the Gods, which had drifted on the Sea.

Well, if you rotate the LttP map 45 degrees clockwise, that puts the sun at northeast, so you might be able to claim it's the sunrise. But considering that it's perpetual night around OoT Castle Town ruins because of Ganondorf's evil, even that's suspect.

[Elaro]

Well, you're presuming to speak for the gods there, which is never a good idea. For all you know, enabling the Hero to permanently kill off Ganondorf—thus eliminating the possibility of him ushering in another dark age—is how the gods fulfilled that wish. We can only comment on what we see the gods do, which is collapse the sea onto Hyrule.

Frankly, it is equally unlikely that New Hyrule would use the ancient names for landmarks. Even assuming that New Hyrule learns the ancient names, the fact is that by the time any translation is done they'll have already given the landmarks new names, names that most likely won't be the old names. The names of the Chosen can be written off as destiny, but places? Not so much.

Okay, we're going in circles. I'm saying it is possible for the gods to have interpreted the wish that way, and you're saying they could've interpreted it some other way? Uh, yeah. I then present my evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order, and you tell me it's "unlikely" that they would've named the landmarks similarily. Maybe there an enchantment that makes people name the landmarks the same way. Hyrule-wide enchantments have been done before, in the AoL backstory.

The problem with assuming that physics don't work like ours except when it does, is that it eliminates a necessary frame of reference. There's no way to extrapolate things that aren't explicitly shown, since you're assuming that reality is wrong by default. For example, Link wouldn't suffocate or starve or die of dehydration if trapped in a cave, because we've never seen it happen. Obviously, that's retarded.

Direct observation is not the only way to gather evidence. From the presence of food in the various villages, we can infer that people need food to live. Our reality and theirs do seem very alike, but we can't assume that they work exactly the same.

Impossible. The location of the two temples don't match at all, unless you want to suggest that between OoT and TP both the desert and Lake Hylia migrated north. Way north. Even suggesting that the compass drifted between the two eras won't work, because the movement of the sun remains the same in both.

What if the sun turns around Hyrule, and its orbit rotates slowly? That would account for the rotated landmarks. But the geography would have to be Wii-version TP, because it's the version where Zora Fountain is to the left of Death Mountain, like in OoT. As for the lake going north, well, after hundreds (if not thousands) of years, erosion would've dug out the river in Gerudo Valley.

Sure we have. Granted, not murals depicting the last stand of the Knights of Hyrule or anything, but currency, ammo, pots, and things like that are valuable archaelogical finds.

Except none of those things are actually archeologically interesting, otherwise Link wouldn't have been able to use the currency he found or to buy arrows of equal quality to those he found elsewhere. And the pots... have been smashed. So none of those things count, and it's the only thing Link found.

The Kokiri are living in a section of the Lost Woods that wasn't shown on the map. You know, magical woods where people become magically lost and all that?

Alright, whence the Zora Sage?

It'd make more sense to undo the seal completely, since otherwise he'd be drawn back into the Dark World as soon as one of the maidens died. Of course, this hinges on my understanding of the seal being correct, with the seal only affecting Ganon specifically (the fact that other portals to the Dark World can be used prior to Zelda's banishment supports this).

Perhaps killing the maidens would have no effect on the seal? Perhaps the seal is like a block of cement and the maidens' life force are like jackhammers. At least, that would explain why the maidens would be kept alive. Even OoT Ganondorf had no compunctions about killing: see the Gorons.

My point is, the maidens have the power of the Sages in their blood. That power tends to give Ganondorf trouble, especially once the Hero becomes active.

Or maybe, Ganon, wiser from his OoT and WW experience, knew that if he killed the Sages (or the Sages' descendants, whatever) there were just going to be other Sages that would be "awakened". So, he probably figured that if he kept them alive, at least he would know if they were captured.

Well, if you rotate the LttP map 45 degrees clockwise, that puts the sun at northeast, so you might be able to claim it's the sunrise. But considering that it's perpetual night around OoT Castle Town ruins because of Ganondorf's evil, even that's suspect.

Huh, you're right. But the sun is very confusing in the LoZ-verse.

[Darth Yoshi]

Okay, we're going in circles. I'm saying it is possible for the gods to have interpreted the wish that way, and you're saying they could've interpreted it some other way? Uh, yeah. I then present my evidence for a OoT-WW-ALttP order, and you tell me it's "unlikely" that they would've named the landmarks similarily. Maybe there an enchantment that makes people name the landmarks the same way. Hyrule-wide enchantments have been done before, in the AoL backstory.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that we really don't have any idea how the gods fulfilled that wish, so any argument that hinges on interpreting the wish is ultimately moot.

But for the sake of argument, why would there be an enchantment on landmark naming, of all things? And wouldn't that fall under the sort of stuff that the King's wish was supposed to get rid of?

Direct observation is not the only way to gather evidence. From the presence of food in the various villages, we can infer that people need food to live. Our reality and theirs do seem very alike, but we can't assume that they work exactly the same.

Okay, bad example. Point is, we're going to end up using reality as a frame of reference, so for logical consistancy we have to assume that everything works the same unless shown otherwise, or we'll just be picking and choosing.

What if the sun turns around Hyrule, and its orbit rotates slowly? That would account for the rotated landmarks. But the geography would have to be Wii-version TP, because it's the version where Zora Fountain is to the left of Death Mountain, like in OoT. As for the lake going north, well, after hundreds (if not thousands) of years, erosion would've dug out the river in Gerudo Valley.

The sun revolving around Hyrule I can accept, although the presence of a horizon in WW seems to indicate otherwise. But saying the sun's orbit is jacked is seriously reaching. Regardless, that still doesn't explain how both Lake Hylia and Gerudo Desert are now north of the Temple of Time, which in OoT was in northern Hyrule.

Except none of those things are actually archeologically interesting, otherwise Link wouldn't have been able to use the currency he found or to buy arrows of equal quality to those he found elsewhere. And the pots... have been smashed. So none of those things count, and it's the only thing Link found.

Pots regenerate, so smashing them is like sky-diving and only taking one heart of damage. Game mechanic. Anyway, previously discovered archaeological finds sit for years without being understood, so it's not that big a deal.

Alright, whence the Zora Sage?

I still say that 2D Zoras are 3D Zoras in armor, so no problem there.

Perhaps killing the maidens would have no effect on the seal? Perhaps the seal is like a block of cement and the maidens' life force are like jackhammers. At least, that would explain why the maidens would be kept alive. Even OoT Ganondorf had no compunctions about killing: see the Gorons.

Bad analogy. A block of cement doesn't repair itself once the hole has been made. And we've never seen a hole punched through a seal before. All instances of seal and barrier magic have been completely undone. Or at least, that's what the visuals tell us.

Or maybe, Ganon, wiser from his OoT and WW experience, knew that if he killed the Sages (or the Sages' descendants, whatever) there were just going to be other Sages that would be "awakened". So, he probably figured that if he kept them alive, at least he would know if they were captured.

Well, garrisoning the temples with his minions prevented the awakening of the Sages in OoT, so presumably it'd be safe once he conquers the Light World temples. Regardless, the LttP legends give the impression that destiny is a generational affair, so killing a Sage should buy at least a decade or two for him to secure the temples and block out the awakening call. If Ganon did manage to kill the Hero, he won't need 10 or 20 years to conquer the temples.

Huh, you're right. But the sun is very confusing in the LoZ-verse.

Honestly, I'd just as soon write that off as part of the Dark World's corruption.

[Elaro]

I suppose what I'm getting at is that we really don't have any idea how the gods fulfilled that wish, so any argument that hinges on interpreting the wish is ultimately moot.

My argument does not hinge on a specific interpretation of that wish, it hinges upon the degradation of the legend of the Hero of Time between WW and ALttP, and the status of the Triforce. The interpretation that I propose is merely the only interpretation that fits the other evidence.

But for the sake of argument, why would there be an enchantment on landmark naming, of all things? And wouldn't that fall under the sort of stuff that the King's wish was supposed to get rid of?

Now you're interpreting the wish again. Perhaps it was merely a physical wash. As for the enchantment, well, maybe Hyrule went through a period where people thought they had named everything perfectly, and sought to preserve this perfection, like the French during the Renaissance. Or perhaps the gods instructed them to do so. I don't know, but it does explain how the landmarks kept their names through all the games.

Okay, bad example. Point is, we're going to end up using reality as a frame of reference, so for logical consistancy we have to assume that everything works the same unless shown otherwise, or we'll just be picking and choosing.

Why is "picking and choosing" bad? As long as we picked and chose the same things?

The sun revolving around Hyrule I can accept, although the presence of a horizon in WW seems to indicate otherwise. But saying the sun's orbit is jacked is seriously reaching. Regardless, that still doesn't explain how both Lake Hylia and Gerudo Desert are now north of the Temple of Time, which in OoT was in northern Hyrule.

OK, OK. Take a map of OoT-Hyrule. Rotate it so that the Temple of Time is to the south. Notice anything familiar between it and the map of Wii-TP? Eh? Eh? But yeah, Gerudo Desert and Lake Hylia have to come down a bit. And Zora Fountain has to come up.

Pots regenerate, so smashing them is like sky-diving and only taking one heart of damage. Game mechanic. Anyway, previously discovered archaeological finds sit for years without being understood, so it's not that big a deal.

"Yes, so, what are we looking at, Professor?"
"It seems like an arrow, found in one of the caves in Death Mountain."
"In Death Mountain? But what could this mean, Professor?"
"Well, it probably means that there was a Guard outpost in Death Mountain at some point, possibly due to the portal sitting there. This relic probably dates from when Ganon invaded and was sealed by the Seven Sages."
"Oh..."
"What? You were expecting something else? Maybe that this was evidence that it was a hero with a funny hat that sealed away Ganon, instead of the Sages? Maybe he traveled through time, too. Ha! Don't be daft, boy."

I still say that 2D Zoras are 3D Zoras in armor, so no problem there.

The LA-DX photo of Link and a ALttP-Zora disprove this thoroughly.

Bad analogy. A block of cement doesn't repair itself once the hole has been made. And we've never seen a hole punched through a seal before. All instances of seal and barrier magic have been completely undone. Or at least, that's what the visuals tell us.

Why didn't Agahnim just kill them all outright, then? Ganon needed the maidens (and the princess) "alive" so the seal would be broken. Or, he learned from his WW experience and decided to actually know where the Sages where. Look, I don't see how keeping the princess and maidens alive contradict my view that Ganon was waiting to kill the Hero before he used the Triforce/conquered the Light World.

Well, garrisoning the temples with his minions prevented the awakening of the Sages in OoT, so presumably it'd be safe once he conquers the Light World temples. Regardless, the LttP legends give the impression that destiny is a generational affair, so killing a Sage should buy at least a decade or two for him to secure the temples and block out the awakening call. If Ganon did manage to kill the Hero, he won't need 10 or 20 years to conquer the temples.

Okay, sure. Except that kinda didn't work in Wind Waker. Thus proving my point (that Ganon learned from his WW experience and decided to control the "Sages", instead of killing them outright).

[Darth Yoshi]

My argument does not hinge on a specific interpretation of that wish, it hinges upon the degradation of the legend of the Hero of Time between WW and ALttP, and the status of the Triforce. The interpretation that I propose is merely the only interpretation that fits the other evidence.

No it isn't. The legends are history, and history adapts when new facts are discovered (or rediscovered, as the case may be). Take the ethnicity of Jesus. During medieval times people thought he was white. Now historians are fairly certain that if he ever existed, he was in fact semitic.

Now you're interpreting the wish again. Perhaps it was merely a physical wash. As for the enchantment, well, maybe Hyrule went through a period where people thought they had named everything perfectly, and sought to preserve this perfection, like the French during the Renaissance. Or perhaps the gods instructed them to do so. I don't know, but it does explain how the landmarks kept their names through all the games.

And you're just making stuff up. It's far more likely that there was cultural/intellectual/political/etc continuity in Hyrule keeping the ancient names, which was shot to hell by the Flood, rather than a patently frivolous spell whose very existence is an unfounded assumption.

Why is "picking and choosing" bad? As long as we picked and chose the same things?

Because people won't pick and choose the same things. Without a set frame of reference, people will come up with wildly varying interpretations. In short, it's a major violation of Occam's Razor and an appeal to ignorance, because you can make whatever the hell assumptions you want.

OK, OK. Take a map of OoT-Hyrule. Rotate it so that the Temple of Time is to the south. Notice anything familiar between it and the map of Wii-TP? Eh? Eh? But yeah, Gerudo Desert and Lake Hylia have to come down a bit. And Zora Fountain has to come up.

That leaves the sun-moving-north-to-south problem. I'm sorry, but the idea that the sun's movement changes to that degree is retarded.

"Yes, so, what are we looking at, Professor?"
"It seems like an arrow, found in one of the caves in Death Mountain."
"In Death Mountain? But what could this mean, Professor?"
"Well, it probably means that there was a Guard outpost in Death Mountain at some point, possibly due to the portal sitting there. This relic probably dates from when Ganon invaded and was sealed by the Seven Sages."
"Oh..."
"What? You were expecting something else? Maybe that this was evidence that it was a hero with a funny hat that sealed away Ganon, instead of the Sages? Maybe he traveled through time, too. Ha! Don't be daft, boy."

And we all know that archaeologists are always right when it comes to initial analyses of ancient finds. Oh wait, Shad would like to disagree with you.

The LA-DX photo of Link and a ALttP-Zora disprove this thoroughly.

Then how'd they change back for TP?

Why didn't Agahnim just kill them all outright, then? Ganon needed the maidens (and the princess) "alive" so the seal would be broken. Or, he learned from his WW experience and decided to actually know where the Sages where. Look, I don't see how keeping the princess and maidens alive contradict my view that Ganon was waiting to kill the Hero before he used the Triforce/conquered the Light World.

It was the power of the Sages that created the seal, and he needed that power to undo it. But after that, they're loose ends. Loose ends that can be turned against him if the Hero can gather them. Going with your interpretation, it's happened twice before already, and it should be fairly obvious by now that you can't depend on dungeons to stop a Hero. The whole maiden tangent came from my thoughts on the Triforce and why Ganon didn't just kill Zelda if he was worried about the Triforce splitting again. After all, you're saying that's why he waited to confront the Hero before taking the Triforce, right? Well, if the Hero would've gotten Courage, then Zelda would've gotten Wisdom. Ergo, he would've had to visit Zelda to retrieve Wisdom after killing Link. But if Ganon was draining the maidens' life force to make a hole in the seal, then the seal would've closed up again after Link freed the maidens and thus stopped the drain. Which would've been bad, since it puts Ganon right back where he started, with Zelda and Link (and thus Wisdom and Courage) conveniently out of his reach. However, Ganon doesn't even bat an eye at the maidens being freed. The seal is obviously no longer a problem, if Ganon is willing to risk Zelda fleeing back to the Light World with Wisdom. That tells me that the maidens had outlived their usefulness already, and the fact that they were alive for Link to rescue is proof of Ganon's inexperience.

Before you jump on me about why Heroes go through dungeons in other Zelda games:

• LoZ: Zelda hid Wisdom in the dungeons
• AoL: the ancient king set up the dungeons
• LA: is irrelevant to Ganon
• MM: ^^^
• MC/FS:^^^
• OoS/OoA: Ganon didn't set up those dungeons
• FSA:^^^
• TP: not the same Ganondorf

Okay, sure. Except that kinda didn't work in Wind Waker. Thus proving my point (that Ganon learned from his WW experience and decided to control the "Sages", instead of killing them outright).

Only because the Flood bought enough time for a new Hero arise. If the gods hadn't intervened, then there would've been no Hero to degarrison the temples and awaken the Sages.

[Elaro]

No it isn't. The legends are history, and history adapts when new facts are discovered (or rediscovered, as the case may be). Take the ethnicity of Jesus. During medieval times people thought he was white. Now historians are fairly certain that if he ever existed, he was in fact semitic.

OUTRAGEOUSLY BAD EXAMPLE. Jesus was believed to be white during the middle ages because people were too illiterate to know what they were talking about. Here, we have a case of disappearing information.

And you're just making stuff up. It's far more likely that there was cultural/intellectual/political/etc continuity in Hyrule keeping the ancient names, which was shot to hell by the Flood, rather than a patently frivolous spell whose very existence is an unfounded assumption.

Yes, I am. But it was only one of the explanations.

Because people won't pick and choose the same things. Without a set frame of reference, people will come up with wildly varying interpretations. In short, it's a major violation of Occam's Razor and an appeal to ignorance, because you can make whatever the hell assumptions you want.

Well, if we explicit what assumptions we're making, then we can discuss at length the validity of those assumptions. You assume that the law of conservation applies in LoZ-verse. I say they have magic. Magic pwns physics. Ergo, split timeline is possible.

That leaves the sun-moving-north-to-south problem. I'm sorry, but the idea that the sun's movement changes to that degree is retarded.

No, it's clever. If the Sun rotates around Hyrule, then perhaps over hundreds/thousands of years its orbit can rotate around Hyrule too. It fits why the map of ALttP is a rotated version of OoT. Of course, the similarity of those two maps either mean that ALttP happens relatively soon after OoT, or very, very late. I go for the second idea.

And we all know that archaeologists are always right when it comes to initial analyses of ancient finds. Oh wait, Shad would like to disagree with you.

It's ARROWS. And POTS. How can they suggest the idea of a Hero of Time? I actually gave an explanation of how the legend could've degraded between WW and ALttP. You just sit there and say "Oh yes the archeologists discover new evidence concerning the Hero of Time and everybody just forgets about the Sages and about how GANON WAS JUST FUCKING KILLED." Seriously.

Then how'd they change back for TP?

TP happened in the timeline with no Flood. The ALttP/LA/LoZ/etc Zoras could be the descendants of the Rito, who tried to retake their aquatic lifestyles.

It was the power of the Sages that created the seal, and he needed that power to undo it. But after that, they're loose ends. Loose ends that can be turned against him if the Hero can gather them. Going with your interpretation, it's happened twice before already, and it should be fairly obvious by now that you can't depend on dungeons to stop a Hero.

Who says Ganon doesn't need the power of the Sages anymore? At the time of Link's rescues, there's no evidence to point that Ganon was finished with the maidens. And as long as they're in their little crystals, Ganon can just pick them up again after he's killed Link.

Only because the Flood bought enough time for a new Hero arise. If the gods hadn't intervened, then there would've been no Hero to degarrison the temples and awaken the Sages.

The WW Sages weren't awakened by killing the monsters in the Temples, they were awakened when someone played a certain song in front of them.

[Darth Yoshi]

OUTRAGEOUSLY BAD EXAMPLE. Jesus was believed to be white during the middle ages because people were too illiterate to know what they were talking about. Here, we have a case of disappearing information.

Oh please. It's exactly the same thing. But fine. Historical revisionism and counter-revisionism. Happens all the time in reality. You've got Confederate apologists, the pedestal that Abe Lincoln is on (I'm sure he was a cool guy, but he damn well wasn't the demigod the public makes him out to be), the rampant belief that Hitler was atheist, etc. Knowledge doesn't only fade. It gets suppressed, censored, and denied. Give it enough time, and people won't know that history was revised until someone brings it up.

Yes, I am. But it was only one of the explanations.

An explanation that fails Occam's Razor.

Well, if we explicit what assumptions we're making, then we can discuss at length the validity of those assumptions. You assume that the law of conservation applies in LoZ-verse. I say they have magic. Magic pwns physics. Ergo, split timeline is possible.

No limits fallacy. Just because magic can do some things that aren't possible in reality doesn't mean it can do anything. Besides, magic doesn't stop the transfer of momentum when a Moblin or a Darknut lands a hit on you, so sorry but magic doesn't pwn physics.

No, it's clever. If the Sun rotates around Hyrule, then perhaps over hundreds/thousands of years its orbit can rotate around Hyrule too. It fits why the map of ALttP is a rotated version of OoT. Of course, the similarity of those two maps either mean that ALttP happens relatively soon after OoT, or very, very late. I go for the second idea.

That's...fucking absurd. Not only is it a violation of Occam's Razor, it's almost criminally stupid. What possible reason could the Three have to set things up in such a haphazard way? And you'd better not say "the Three work in mysterious ways" or some shit like that.

It's ARROWS. And POTS. How can they suggest the idea of a Hero of Time? I actually gave an explanation of how the legend could've degraded between WW and ALttP. You just sit there and say "Oh yes the archeologists discover new evidence concerning the Hero of Time and everybody just forgets about the Sages and about how GANON WAS JUST FUCKING KILLED." Seriously.

Your explanation relies on deus ex machina and baseless assumptions about the existence of asinine enchantments! And I'm not talking about those. I even admitted that arrows and pots aren't groundbreaking discoveries. I'm talking about things like the owl statues, which people find and then just sit there while someone tries to make sense of them. And so what if Ganon gets killed? He comes back. They know this.

TP happened in the timeline with no Flood. The ALttP/LA/LoZ/etc Zoras could be the descendants of the Rito, who tried to retake their aquatic lifestyles.

That's stupid. Why the hell would they do that? It's not like they remember they used to be aquatic. They don't have any attachment to the water. They know they don't naturally fly, but that doesn't mean "hay guyz lets b fishmen lol!"

Who says Ganon doesn't need the power of the Sages anymore? At the time of Link's rescues, there's no evidence to point that Ganon was finished with the maidens. And as long as they're in their little crystals, Ganon can just pick them up again after he's killed Link.

Those crystals doubled as restraining devices, preventing them from trying anything. The fact that they were able to pool their power and unblock Ganon's Tower means that they were free to act. Ergo, crystals not working anymore. Ergo, capable of returning to the Light World. The fact that Ganon isn't worried about that in the slightest means that he can follow them into the Light World. Which means the seal is gone. What could Ganon possibly want with them after? What possible gain is there that outweighs the risk of them banding with the Hero and beating him (again!).

The WW Sages weren't awakened by killing the monsters in the Temples, they were awakened when someone played a certain song in front of them.

They were awakened by the Hero and the Wind Waker. Thoroughly subjugating Hyrule and securing the True Force—the logical result of successfully killing the Sages and garrisoning the temples—means no Hero, present or future. No Hero, no awakening. The only reason that didn't happen is because the gods decided, on a whim, to fuck with Ganondorf.

[Elaro]

Oh please. It's exactly the same thing. But fine. Historical revisionism and counter-revisionism. Happens all the time in reality. You've got Confederate apologists, the pedestal that Abe Lincoln is on (I'm sure he was a cool guy, but he damn well wasn't the demigod the public makes him out to be), the rampant belief that Hitler was atheist, etc. Knowledge doesn't only fade. It gets suppressed, censored, and denied. Give it enough time, and people won't know that history was revised until someone brings it up.

No. In all the examples you mention, there are people deliberately ignoring some piece of evidence that is readily accessible. And they're on the intellectual fringe. In ALttP, everybody says that the Sages sealed Ganon. Even the Elders and the descendants of the Sages themselves. The information about the Hero of Time was lost, in ALttP.

An explanation that fails Occam's Razor.

And yours does? Your order mean that the Great Deku Tree, Kokiris, Zoras and Gorons phase in and out of Hyrule, that Ganon's phylactery/trident can transfer memories, that there remained a highly accurate account of the events of OoT somewhere in ALttP Hyrule and that the Master Sword can change places.

Whereas my theory requires a certain interpretation of the WW wish, and either the populace following similar naming conventions/logic as their ancestors, an old text describing the names of the the landmarks, or a admittedly "status-symbol" enchantment.

Which one requires less leaps of imagination?

No limits fallacy. Just because magic can do some things that aren't possible in reality doesn't mean it can do anything. Besides, magic doesn't stop the transfer of momentum when a Moblin or a Darknut lands a hit on you, so sorry but magic doesn't pwn physics.

It's momentum that causes damage, right? If so, Magic Armor.

That's...fucking absurd. Not only is it a violation of Occam's Razor, it's almost criminally stupid. What possible reason could the Three have to set things up in such a haphazard way? And you'd better not say "the Three work in mysterious ways" or some shit like that.

Make things more interesting? Also, if the Sun rotates around the planet Hyrule (named so for convenience's sake), wouldn't it be more likely that it doesn't describe absolutely perfect circles, and thus there would be some drift? It explains why Hyrule's geography rotates so much between games. (Also, planet Hyrule would have to be tilted, for seasonal reasons.)

Your explanation relies on deus ex machina and baseless assumptions about the existence of asinine enchantments! And I'm not talking about those. I even admitted that arrows and pots aren't groundbreaking discoveries. I'm talking about things like the owl statues, which people find and then just sit there while someone tries to make sense of them. And so what if Ganon gets killed? He comes back. They know this.

I get what your "owl statue" point is, but there is still not enough physical evidence that we can see in ALttP for people to interpret "Hero of Time". Also, for Ganon returning, point. Ish.

Also, in a world where the deus regularly ex of their machina, I don't think it's a valid criticism.

That's stupid. Why the hell would they do that? It's not like they remember they used to be aquatic. They don't have any attachment to the water. They know they don't naturally fly, but that doesn't mean "hay guyz lets b fishmen lol!"

Well, OK. Alternate theory: the ALttP Zoras are the descendants of the WW Fishmen.

Those crystals doubled as restraining devices, preventing them from trying anything. The fact that they were able to pool their power and unblock Ganon's Tower means that they were free to act. Ergo, crystals not working anymore. Ergo, capable of returning to the Light World. The fact that Ganon isn't worried about that in the slightest means that he can follow them into the Light World. Which means the seal is gone. What could Ganon possibly want with them after? What possible gain is there that outweighs the risk of them banding with the Hero and beating him (again!).

Yes the seal was broken, but Ganon was still using the maidens' powers to build a gate between the two worlds. Source: Link .(Search for "he is trying to open a larger gate".)

They were awakened by the Hero and the Wind Waker. Thoroughly subjugating Hyrule and securing the True Force—the logical result of successfully killing the Sages and garrisoning the temples—means no Hero, present or future. No Hero, no awakening. The only reason that didn't happen is because the gods decided, on a whim, to fuck with Ganondorf.

"On a whim"? Well, no. It's clearly implied that the Sages prayed to the gods to flood Hyrule. Also, how do you get the "no Hero if Ganondorf wins"?

[Darth Yoshi]

No. In all the examples you mention, there are people deliberately ignoring some piece of evidence that is readily accessible. And they're on the intellectual fringe. In ALttP, everybody says that the Sages sealed Ganon. Even the Elders and the descendants of the Sages themselves. The information about the Hero of Time was lost, in ALttP.

Intellectual fringe? Hardly. The Lincoln and Hitler examples are the prevalent perceptions here in the States. People can be surprisingly willful in their ignorance. It could be nothing more than the Knights being embarrassed about their poor showing against Ganondorf's surprise attack and stealing the credit, which is why the Hero of Time is omitted.

And yours does? Your order mean that the Great Deku Tree, Kokiris, Zoras and Gorons phase in and out of Hyrule, that Ganon's phylactery/trident can transfer memories, that there remained a highly accurate account of the events of OoT somewhere in ALttP Hyrule and that the Master Sword can change places.

Phase in and out? The Kokiri are insular. If a particular Hero doesn't deal with them, then there's no point in mentioning them, except to satisfy someone's desire to have them show up in the story. Following my order, Zoras are Zoras until the Flood, when they become Rito. As for the Gorons: [a]they're the boulders that squash you; they're on another mountain in the mountain chain that Death Mountain is part of; [c]they're on the backside of Death Mountain. Take your pick. Ganon's trident is extrapolated from known observation throughout the series. Highly accurate? Perhaps not, but the whole point of archaeology is to dig up shit that's been forgotten over the generations. And most of that shit isn't going to be conveniently sticking out like a sore thumb. And don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Master Sword moves by itself. I'm saying that someone moved it at one point or another.

Whereas my theory requires a certain interpretation of the WW wish, and either the populace following similar naming conventions/logic as their ancestors, an old text describing the names of the the landmarks, or a admittedly "status-symbol" enchantment.

Again, reading too much into language and adding extra deus ex machina, a ridiculously improbable coincidence, language barrier, and an asinine spell.

It's momentum that causes damage, right? If so, Magic Armor.

How does that contradict me? My point was that even with protection spells or Magic Armor, Link still gets knocked around like a ragdoll by Moblins and Darknuts. So a warhammer doesn't flatten him. It still knocks the wind out of him, and that's hardly pwning physics.

Make things more interesting? Also, if the Sun rotates around the planet Hyrule (named so for convenience's sake), wouldn't it be more likely that it doesn't describe absolutely perfect circles, and thus there would be some drift? It explains why Hyrule's geography rotates so much between games. (Also, planet Hyrule would have to be tilted, for seasonal reasons.)

Okay, that's just another way of saying "the Three work in mysterious ways" and you know it. An imperfect orbit doesn't mean fucked up. Anyway, the existance of seasons is actually a knock against a geocentric Zelda-verse, since seasons in reality are an effect of a tilted Earth in a heliocentric system. I don't see how it's possible to have seasons in a geocentric system without having fertility gods control the weather. You could have the sun arbitrarily change distance from the planet, but that's stupid.

EDIT: Come to think of it, though, OoS shows that seasons are affected by magic, so a helio-centric system might not necessarily be the case. Hm.

I get what your "owl statue" point is, but there is still not enough physical evidence that we can see in ALttP for people to interpret "Hero of Time". Also, for Ganon returning, point. Ish.

We don't see enough of Hyrule to say that there isn't an archive somewhere (most likely in the castle). Remember, we don't see bedrooms in LttP Hyrule Castle either.

Also, in a world where the deus regularly ex of their machina, I don't think it's a valid criticism.

Again, if we go that way, then we can make whatever the hell assumptions we want, rendering the discussion moot. Again, if it's not an obvious deus ex machina, it shouldn't be a deus ex machina.

Well, OK. Alternate theory: the ALttP Zoras are the descendants of the WW Fishmen.

Then why are they called Zoras? The word "Zora" probably isn't Hylian for "fishman," since they call themselves that. Again, it's a ridiculously improbable coincidence to call them Zoras.

Yes the seal was broken, but Ganon was still using the maidens' powers to build a gate between the two worlds. Source: Link .(Search for "he is trying to open a larger gate".)

He doesn't strictly need the maidens for that, since the 6th maiden says the gate will soon open, after Link has already practically put a stop to the drain. However, I will conceed that Ganon had a reason to keep the maidens around. Of course, that makes Ganon's defeat in LttP due to his own impatience.

"On a whim"? Well, no. It's clearly implied that the Sages prayed to the gods to flood Hyrule. Also, how do you get the "no Hero if Ganondorf wins"?

Yes, and the gods have never directly intervened like that, even in other hopeless cases. Ergo, they decided to humor the Sages.

If Ganondorf secures the True Force, no Hero will last long enough to properly gather the Sages.

[Praxis]

Ah, you're going the single timeline route? There's an alternate timeline theory you may have heard of, called the Split Timeline. You've probably read it on GameFAQs, but let me recap for those blessed with not having read a GameFAQs Zelda Timeline topic.

But first, let me make one thing clear. I HATE TIME TRAVELING! With that out of the way, here's what it's about.

We start as yours with The Minish Cap and progress to Ocarina of Time. The things turn ugly. In the end of Ocarina of Time, Link seals the evil Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. Then Zelda sends Link back in time, to the point just before Link draws out the Master Sword for the first time. In best Star Trek fashion, however, the timeline with Ganondorf sealed and no Link doesn't change. Instead the timeline splits, creating one where Link remains a child and goes on to Termina, and one where Adult Link does not exist.

Again, I hate time travel.

So we have two seperate timelines now.
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child)
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link)

Child Timeline
The direct sequel to OoT is Majora's Mask. Same Link, he saves Termina and that's the end of that Link's story.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask

This timeline isn't over yet, though. Next up is, a controversial choice, Twilight Princess. Why is this here? First of all, geography. TP Hyrule is OoT Hyrule. The Wii version is flipped, but the GameCube version matches exactly. Secondly, consider Ganondorf. He is not sealed anywhere before the game. He is tried for his crimes and attempted executed. THEN he gets the Triforce of Power and gets sent into the Twilight Realm, at least according to the Sages. Also, Ganondorf does not recognize the Master Sword or the green tunic, he might have remembered those if he'd been beat up by Adult Link in OoT. The game ends with Ganondorf dead. Not sealed. Dead. The End.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess

This ends the child timeline. Ganondorf is dead, Hyrule is saved, and Link may or may not get the girl. Yay!

Adult Timeline
Remeber, this has no Link at first, only a legend of a green clad hero who saved Hyrule once. Enter Ganondorf. With no Link, Ganondorf's second attempt of conquest goes unopposed, until the gods decide to flood Hyrule setting up The Wind Waker.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker

This version of Ganondorf DOES remember Link, the Hero of Time, recognizes the Master Sword and the green tunic. He has fought a Link before, but he doesn't remember TP Link and Midna. This is the Ganondorf who was sealed in Ocarina of Time. Wind Waker ends with Ganondorf petrified and Old Hyrule finally destroyed for good. The next game is a direct sequel, we don't know if Ganondorf is in it yet, but probably not. Phantom Hourglass is next.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass

We don't know what happens in PH, but it is assumed that Link and Tetra find a new continent and found a new Hyrule.

Now, which timeline does the rest of the series fit in? On one hand, we have Old Hyrule with a Master Sword, but a dead Ganondorf in the child timeline. On the other we have a sealed-in-stone Ganondorf in the adult timeline, but the Master Sword stuck underwater. Now, if Ganondorf is to recover, he'll need the Sword of Evil's Bane removed from his skull. How this happens is unclear, but the Master Sword is known to change position every once in a while. Maybe it's disappears and reappears? It's kind of hard to move somewhere for anyone not-chosen by it.

In all, geography trumps swords. So the series must go on the adult line. Next once known for sure is A Link to the Past. The intro talks about the "Imprisoning War" where seven sages sealed a great evil away. Could be Ocarina of Time. The game ends with Ganon defeated and the Triforce restored. If Ganon is dead or not, is unclear. Possibly. Also, "The Master Sword Sleeps. Forever."

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past

Next up, is Link's Awakening. This is the same Link as ALttP Link. Since the game is mostly a dream, it can fit a lot of places, but the final boss is the shadow of ALttP Ganon. It must be the same Link.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening

Finally there's the original two. The Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link. Note the lack of a Master Sword here. Link explores the world, kills Ganondorf. His minions try to revive him, Link kills them, too. Finally, Ganondorf is dead, and any attempt to revive him has been twarted. Also, notice the town names in AoL. Those are the seven sages of OoT's names, so the Sages must have been known and awakened to have towns named after them, placing this game and the previous in the adult timeline. Also, Link gets the girl in this one. The End.

So let's review the timelines:
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening -> Legend of Zelda -> Link's Adventure

We're missing out a few. The Four Swords titles and the Oracle titles. All we can say for sure is this:

Minish Cap -> Four Swords -> Four Swords Adventures

But they can be inserted many places in the timelines.

The Oracles can be placed anywhere, where the Triforce is gathered. Since Ganon holds the Triforce of Power when alive, he must be dead-ish. That's either after Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past (and by extension Link's Awakening) or Adventure of Link. The precense of Twinrova is a hint, though. The witches are dead in the adult timeline. So it could be set in Old Hyrule after Twilight Princess.

That... got a little long. Anyway, this is the basic idea behind the Split Timeline. It all depends on how time travel works in Hyrule, especially the rewind style Zelda used on Link in OoT and later Link in Majora's Mask. Maybe that's why Zelda had to re-teach the Song of Time to him? So he could rewind time like she did?

Sorry to resurrect this thread. I'm joining in late because I only just now beat Twilight Princess, about an hour ago.

Split timeline doesn't work. I considered it, and it makes a lot of sense, but it is totally shattered by one simple thing; people remember the adult hero of time.

Remember? You got the Zora's Tunic, which the Hero wore. You got the Hero's Bow, that the original Hero used. All of these were Adult items in Ocarina of Time; so the Hero must have been an adult.


Really, it doesn't make sense either way you look at it. If it is a single timeline, why is Ganondorf's backstory different? They say he was a thief that tried to invade Hyrule but was stopped, the sages tried to execute him, but he broke free and they tossed him in the Twilight Realm after he killed one. No mention of Link anywhere. And if he died in the end how can he be around in Wind Waker? How did Ganondorf's power get locked away and the flood occur? The split timeline theory aleviates these; Link went back in time and tattled to Princess Zelda that Ganondorf was going to take over. Thus, the Sages stopped him when he entered Hyrule with his band of thieves.


But the split timeline is completely smashed by the fact that people remember and items attest to an adult Link. But those discrepencies also defeat a single-timeline theory.

I dunno.

Also, with the timeline posted at the beginning of this thread; several of those conflict. Ganondorf was DEAD when Twilight Princess ended; he was also DEAD when Wind Waker ended (perhaps even more dead than TP; he took a sword through the head, instead of the chest). So it's hard to imagine how, say, a Link to the Past can occur after Ganondorf's death.

Granted, I haven't played ALttP yet. I'll be downloading it off VC now that I beat TP.

[Darth Yoshi]

To play advocate here, it could be argued that those instances in question take place in the future (original) timeline. However, as I've made abundantly clear, I'm single timeline.

And you haven't resurrected this thread. Elaro and I have been going at it here for the past few weeks.

[Elaro]

Sorry to resurrect this thread. I'm joining in late because I only just now beat Twilight Princess, about an hour ago.

Split timeline doesn't work. I considered it, and it makes a lot of sense, but it is totally shattered by one simple thing; people remember the adult hero of time.

Remember? You got the Zora's Tunic, which the Hero wore. You got the Hero's Bow, that the original Hero used. All of these were Adult items in Ocarina of Time; so the Hero must have been an adult.

Well, if I recall correctly, Queen Rutela is unspecific as to whether the Zora Armor was actually given to a previous Hero. As for the bow, I thought the TP bow looked more like the one from MM than the one from OoT. So maybe Young Link came back from Termina and gave his bow to the Gorons for safekeeping. ... :shout: CONCEDED, DARTH YOSHI.

Really, it doesn't make sense either way you look at it. If it is a single timeline, why is Ganondorf's backstory different? They say he was a thief that tried to invade Hyrule but was stopped, the sages tried to execute him, but he broke free and they tossed him in the Twilight Realm after he killed one. No mention of Link anywhere. And if he died in the end how can he be around in Wind Waker? How did Ganondorf's power get locked away and the flood occur? The split timeline theory aleviates these; Link went back in time and tattled to Princess Zelda that Ganondorf was going to take over. Thus, the Sages stopped him when he entered Hyrule with his band of thieves.


But the split timeline is completely smashed by the fact that people remember and items attest to an adult Link. But those discrepencies also defeat a single-timeline theory.

I dunno.

Also, with the timeline posted at the beginning of this thread; several of those conflict. Ganondorf was DEAD when Twilight Princess ended; he was also DEAD when Wind Waker ended (perhaps even more dead than TP; he took a sword through the head, instead of the chest). So it's hard to imagine how, say, a Link to the Past can occur after Ganondorf's death.

Granted, I haven't played ALttP yet. I'll be downloading it off VC now that I beat TP.

The current theory now is multiple Ganondorfs, or he can respawn.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, if I recall correctly, Queen Rutela is unspecific as to whether the Zora Armor was actually given to a previous Hero. As for the bow, I thought the TP bow looked more like the one from MM than the one from OoT. So maybe Young Link came back from Termina and gave his bow to the Gorons for safekeeping. ... :shout: CONCEDED, DARTH YOSHI.

Before I accept this concession, I need to shoot myself in the foot by pointing out that the TP bow isn't the MM bow, because MM Link is short. I mean, he's half the size of his adult self. Assuming that TP Link is a similar height as the adult Hero of Time, the MM bow would be a longbow for MM Link to be usable by an adult. I guess you can say the Hylians were impressed by Terminian bow designs and adopted it or something like that. But unlike the Master Sword, which as a holy blade can change size to suit its Hero, the bows can't be the same. If you still want to concede, I'll accept it, though.

The current theory now is multiple Ganondorfs, or he can respawn.

Is that what the consensus now is in general, or just the context of this thread?

[Dooey Jo]

The current theory now is multiple Ganondorfs, or he can respawn.

Is that what the consensus now is in general, or just the context of this thread?

My impression of the Zelda community is that everyone have their own personal timeline theories and are very protective of them. The currently most popular theories are the split timelines theories, and a multiple Ganon theory would probably be classified as highly heretical. If you proposed it, I predict you would get approximately 6 quotes from Miyamoto and Aonuma thrown your way as "refutation", because author's intent is gospel when examining the Zelda timeline (nevermind that what they say can change on a whim, but the evidence found in the games will always stay the same). I suspect this might be because there are a large percentage of IDers and creationists there, who, as we all know, like to take certain things as absolute truths, and many are also in their lower teens...

Basically what I'm saying is that many, if not most, of them are idiots, and even though the multiple Ganon theory might well fit better with what we see in the games, it'll take several years at best to change the general consensus.

[Elaro]

Before I accept this concession, I need to shoot myself in the foot by pointing out that the TP bow isn't the MM bow, because MM Link is short. I mean, he's half the size of his adult self. Assuming that TP Link is a similar height as the adult Hero of Time, the MM bow would be a longbow for MM Link to be usable by an adult. I guess you can say the Hylians were impressed by Terminian bow designs and adopted it or something like that. But unlike the Master Sword, which as a holy blade can change size to suit its Hero, the bows can't be the same. If you still want to concede, I'll accept it, though.

... >_< CRAP. But your explaination is good, though. Or Link modified (or got someone to modify) his bow as he grew up. Still conceded.

Although, that means either TP happens only a few generations after MM, or a few generations after some other Hero entirely. Considering the drastic geography changes between OoT and TP, I'm going to have to go with the latter.

Is that what the consensus now is in general, or just the context of this thread?

In the context of this thread, I meant.

[Praxis]

Sorry to resurrect this thread. I'm joining in late because I only just now beat Twilight Princess, about an hour ago.

Split timeline doesn't work. I considered it, and it makes a lot of sense, but it is totally shattered by one simple thing; people remember the adult hero of time.

Remember? You got the Zora's Tunic, which the Hero wore. You got the Hero's Bow, that the original Hero used. All of these were Adult items in Ocarina of Time; so the Hero must have been an adult.

Well, if I recall correctly, Queen Rutela is unspecific as to whether the Zora Armor was actually given to a previous Hero. As for the bow, I thought the TP bow looked more like the one from MM than the one from OoT. So maybe Young Link came back from Termina and gave his bow to the Gorons for safekeeping. ... :shout: CONCEDED, DARTH YOSHI.

But then the Gorons have no reason to consider Link to be a Hero, so why would it be guarded as a treasure? Young Link was not known to have accomplished anything.

[Praxis]

The current theory now is multiple Ganondorfs, or he can respawn.

Is that what the consensus now is in general, or just the context of this thread?

My impression of the Zelda community is that everyone have their own personal timeline theories and are very protective of them. The currently most popular theories are the split timelines theories, and a multiple Ganon theory would probably be classified as highly heretical. If you proposed it, I predict you would get approximately 6 quotes from Miyamoto and Aonuma thrown your way as "refutation", because author's intent is gospel when examining the Zelda timeline (nevermind that what they say can change on a whim, but the evidence found in the games will always stay the same). I suspect this might be because there are a large percentage of IDers and creationists there, who, as we all know, like to take certain things as absolute truths, and many are also in their lower teens...

Basically what I'm saying is that many, if not most, of them are idiots, and even though the multiple Ganon theory might well fit better with what we see in the games, it'll take several years at best to change the general consensus.

Multiple Ganondorfs really doesn't work, since the Gerudo went extinct. Where are these Ganondorfs all coming from?

[Elaro]

But then the Gorons have no reason to consider Link to be a Hero, so why would it be guarded as a treasure? Young Link was not known to have accomplished anything.

Well, it's possible he did other things between MM and his death.

It has been speculated that the guy who teaches you the sword techniques in TP is post-MM Link (based on the "this is for heroes only" line, and the Deku symbol on his shield.)