Superman vs. Darth Vader...

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-01-09 12:01am

Superman is very smart. He is a great leader and have a lot of knowledge or you never noticed it ? In the past he used to know "all the humanking knowledge" due his father. He still no Batman, but a little bellow.

Ghostrider :
What part you do not understand. One fight, done in JLA, does not make Superman be ass handed by Batman 99% of time. When Batman tryied to hunt Joker for example, Superman did not allowed and Batman could not do anything for it. (After Jason Todd's death). When Superman was posseded in the JL special He defeated all the JLA, batman among them (It was a Jim Starlim/Berni Wringston four part story) and he was only helped by that ex-pararel earth young hero that can change his density. The league was Ajax, Batman, Destiny, Guy Gardner as Green Lantern and the other non-important like Blue Beetle or Black Canary. This is done without effort to remember and I will not search all my old comics for it but all those two happened after 1995.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-09 12:14am

Alright, I can see this is not going to get resolved easily... why don't we go back to discussing Superman vs Darth Vader, since that's the topic?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-09 12:20am

The Force surrounds all living things, period. Enter the Force Choke.

And don't giving me that "He'll kick his ass 500 times before he starts to think" crap either. When has Supes EVER demonstarted his abiltiy to do that?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:23am

Jason Todd...Superman in sheer physical contest Batman could do nothing...but you go and make the leap of thinking, that meant a win column.

I guess JLA #1 when Batman outwitted Superman's Superhearing...must mean one for Bats by that inane logic

And thus somehow also my LATER DATE JLA defeat by Batman literally...is all just heresay and conjecture.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:45am

As for getting away from the hijacking...is the Force Mystical?

I mean is it something truly a magical base...if so...Supes dies literally because he cannot use his powers to directly affect it(in Man of Stell Year One Annual as well as JLA 58, he cannot break magical chains, and magical spears pierce him...in fact he could not penetrate magical armor)

So it really comes down to not how fast he is(because if the Force is mystical and Jedi have a degree of subconcious will towards it or they are screwed anytime a blaster bolt is fire at them, and to say the least they activly believ the doctrine it guides them and so far canon has done nothing to show otherwise.), but whether or not is the Force Mystical in essence, or is it just some suped up psi powers.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-09 02:45am

Even if the force WAS mystical, it would not save Darth Vader. Captain Marvel (DC version) is powered by the magic of SHAZAM, yet Superman can smack him around just fine. Even IF he counldn't affect Vader directly, he can simply toss non-magical rocks at Vader at .5c several hundred times faster than his nurons can fire.

Also, Manchester Black (who could tilt the moon) tried to mess with Superman's internal organs before. It didn't work. Vader is nowhere NEAR Manchester Black's power so he would not be ablt to affect him either.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 09:43am

JLA#35...Captain Marvel decks Superman with one blow. He actually saysbecause he is mystically enhanced.

JSA/JLA crossover: same thing

Kingdom Come: Mystical Thunderbolt makes Superman Bleed.

Care to back up your bullshit that Supes is going to smack Captain Marvel around?

As I said, he is vulnerable to levels that if attacked by mystical being he cannot affect them DIRECTLY...if he melted the ground underneath Vader fine...but if Vader gets into any sort of contact with Supes...he is screwed.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 09:46am

If the Force is mystical...which no has answered thus making it sorta moot to continue, since that is the deciding factor.

Superman is extraordinarily vulnerable to magic/mystical forces...if the Force is purely physical basis, then fine he wins

If not he loses.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-09 12:21pm

Ghost Rider wrote:JLA#35...Captain Marvel decks Superman with one blow. He actually saysbecause he is mystically enhanced.

JSA/JLA crossover: same thing

Kingdom Come: Mystical Thunderbolt makes Superman Bleed.

Care to back up your bullshit that Supes is going to smack Captain Marvel around?

In Kingdom Come, Captain Marvel was clearly feeling Superman's punches, despite the fact that he is surrounded by a magical aura. If Captain Marvel can feel it, think of what it will do to Darth Vader.
I probably should have made it more clear. Superman can't necessarily defeat Captain Marvel, but any force Captain Marvel can feel will reduce Darth Vader to a stain on the wall. Remember Captain Marvel has super-durability on top of his magic.

Plus, in the "Death of Clark Kent" story arc, Superman and Captain Marvel were evenly matched.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:29pm

Which is superceded by information JSA/JLA as well as the storyarc involving the creation of the Next Johnny Thunder in JLA.

Literally while Captain Marvel have felt it before DC has decided to remodifiy Superman's level of affecting mystical abilities as given in the Mark Waid's story arc involving the Snow White and the Queen...where Superman could not break any sort of mystiucal chains as well as he could not penetrate any mystical armor.

So far they have yet to give any new modifications to either Captain Marvel or Superman to state otherwise.

So it still stand...is the Force mystical...if yes...Superman is screwed...if not Vader dies because he does not have the raw power to affect Superman physically fast enough and a simple Jedi mind trick is not likely to penetrate Superman's psionic defenses...which has been done since the King of the World saga.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-09 12:33pm

Let's sayt he force IS magic . . .

What if Superman picks up a normal rock and throws it at .50c at Vader (or, being Superman, he throws 200 at once before the information that Superman has arrived has a chance to travel from his eyes to his brain). He's only affecting the rock, and the rock isn't magical.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:35pm

As I stated...long before...he cannot DIRECTLY hit Vader...but he can affect...why throw a rock...melt the ground...did you read any of statement or did you see me asking is the Force mystical and stop there?

or did this just fly by your head

As I said, he is vulnerable to levels that if attacked by mystical being he cannot affect them DIRECTLY...if he melted the ground underneath Vader fine...but if Vader gets into any sort of contact with Supes...he is screwed.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-09 12:43pm

Ghost Rider wrote:So it still stand...is the Force mystical...if yes...Superman is screwed...if not Vader dies

You mean "If the force is mystical then Superman will take a bit longer to kill Vader"

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:48pm

Superman...unless he is given full knowledge of Vader's abilities will go in for the all time classic rush in and lunge.

I'm even giving the clause Superman is out to kill said opponent.

If the Force is mystical, Superman's first punch won't do crap...because his physical powers do not directly hurt anything mystical...none of them, no matter how outlandish it sounds...it's what DC has decided canon to be until they say otherwise. Mark Waid's whole JLA storyarc was constantly beating this one in the reader's head.

Now if the Force is not such...then Superman's first punch turns Vader into a pile of dust.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 12:49pm

If he is given the full knowledge...then he goes for far away kill...and at orbital distances...because we still have yet to conclude is the Force mystical...and with that knowledge Superman is more inclined to heat vision from afar.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2003-01-09 01:39pm

This is all moot. Vader wears armor. If superman punches him he is gonna punch his armor and the impact is gonna transfer through the armor and drop Vader like a sack of wet rags.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 01:51pm

Superman cannot break mystical chains...not amount of force he applies upon the Spear of destiny breaks it. He can't even hurt Fate...who has virtually no armor to speak of...Superman blows when hitting a mystical object becomes nothing more than a regular human equvilent...that's wahat DC has done to him...and shown it multiple times.

If the Force is mystical, in accordance to how DC works, Vader is virtually nigh invincible to Superman...short of Supes flying to orbit and using heat vision, because there is no way of Vader using Precog or anything avoid said blast...even with Force speed.

If not...Supes first punch splatters him.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-09 03:27pm

Modern supes is not said to be particulary vulnerable to magic I've been told. A wizard beat the JLA and Supes walked right thru the beams...

Can't the guy have some limits?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 03:38pm

JLA #29 disagrees.

JLA #48-49 disagrees.

JSA/JLA graphic novel(virtue and Vice) says otherwise.

So until some form of canon says otherwise...his level of magic resistance is nil.

But as I said, it comes down to truly how much is gathered or true about the Force being a mystical field that surrounds and binds us.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2003-01-09 03:49pm

Durandal wrote:At best, you can claim that Superman has some sort of personal shield. If it was an "invulnerability field," he'd be completely impervious to any and all harm. Doomsday proves that this is not the case.

Incorrect, the aura is what it is, an extension of his invulnerabilty. I'm not say he his completeley invulnerable to anything. Being that can match Supes in strength or have magical power can bi-pass his abilities can either wear down or bi-pass his invulnerability. I know I am a Superman fan.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-09 03:51pm

I didn't come up with this meself but . . .

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32317&highlight=Superman+magic wrote:War of the Gods #4: Superman bravely used his own body as a shield to block a magical bolt capable of destroying an entire Island (Themyscira, Paradise Island). So effective a shield was he, that he weakened the bolt such that only a single casualty occurred on the island. Superman #23, the "weaker" (1988) Superman survived a magical explosion that destroyed "most of an Island", but was rendered unconscious.

In the JLA: Primeval one-shot, Superman shrugged off and waded through a blast of magical energy that completely incapacitated the rest of the JLA, including Zauriel and Wonder Woman (both magical beings). The blast was from Disciple, empowered by the Elder Gods; said gods were described as "impossibly ancient" by Zauriel, who is literally an angel from heaven. After wading through Disciple’s best shot, Superman disabled and defeated Disciple single-handedly.

JLA Seven Caskets: The entire JLA KO'd by the attack of the ancient Elder Gods, Superman was the first to his feet, and swiftly rose to single-handedly score the win.

In Adventure of Superman #581, Superman allowed Adversary, a powerful magical foe, to hit him as hard as he could, without retaliation. Superman was literally punched halfway across the planet- from Metropolis, he literally landed in China- without any injury or loss of consciousness.

Forget about being punched across the planet to China, how about through the planet to China? In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his magically-created, brain damaged, "imperfect" duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro’s body) punched Bizarro (in Superman’s body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman’s body) was slammed in through the ground in Metropolis and came out two panels later in China. He was shown ripping straight through the Earth’s crust, mantle, and core, and coming out on the other side of the planet. Superman’s body was fully conscious and completely unharmed by the blow (Bizarro was smiling as usual).

Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases.

Action Comics # 585: After noting that his powers don't "work against magic", Superman went toe to toe with a magically animated mountian. Superman muscled overhead the mountain, described as rapidly approaching a size big enough to "crush Metropolis with one step." He achieved flight with it and flew the chunk of Earth into Outer Space. Once there, he tossed the mountain into orbit around the sun.

JLA # 7: As Electro-Superman, he halted the fall of the Moon towards Earth (caused by Neron’s magical machinations), then moved the Moon back its proper position in orbit.

Superman Man of Steel #126: Superman held a contest of strength against an immortal god, Baal the "Thundering Destroyer", and stalemated him. (Baal is magical.) The assembled gods then called Superman "magnificent."

Superman Man of Steel #127: Superman fought off a team magical gods including: Baal, the "Thundering Destroyer"; Lord Ahriman, "evil incarnate"; and Mixcoatl, the "Lord of the Hunt."

JLA# 7: As Electro-Superman, he gave Asmodel, the "deadliest King-Angel in all Heaven", all he could handle in a wrestling match. Asmodel was a being "whose every heartbeat is a thousand Hiroshimas, whose gaze can sear flesh from bone, whose blood is an acid purer than any found on Earth."

In the same story, Superman withstood the scouring light of heaven, which "only the purest souls" can do "without being driven mad."

Soul Search: Fighting alone in Hell (literally), Superman single-handedly defeated Blaze, a death goddess, in her own realm. This had never been accomplished before by anyone; Blaze has magical control over the very reality of her realm. The attacks that Superman fought off included magical transmutation into a demon, which he shook off through sheer willpower ; magical energy blasts from Blaze ; a magical spell that encased him in stone, which he subsequently shattered; and immersion in the lava lakes of this magical dimension.

Superman Man of Steel #15; continued in Superman #71: Once again in Blaze’s realm, Superman survived and bounced back from an assault by hundreds of magical demons; literally the entire demon population of a dimension.

Action Comics #761: Superman fought in, survived, and delivered the winning blow in, the 1000 Year War in Valhalla (time was operating strangely in this magical dimension, and 1000 years passed there while mere hours went by on Earth). There were many casualties amongst the gods, including the DC version of Thor (though this does not reflect on the Marvel version, it does illustrate the level of magical dangers involved). The DC Thor chose Superman as his successor to wield the hammer Mjolnir.

Let's not forget his battle with the all-powerful Emperor Joker. A magical lunatic more powerful than God, Emperor Joker literally kept the Spectre as a pet in a cage; transformed the Cosmic Quintessence (Ganthet, Shazam, Highfather, Zeus, Phantom Stranger) into a walking joke with a thought; and made Darkseid his "homey"....because Joker said so. Superman was the first to see through Emperor Joker's vision of reality; 5th dimensional ability to alter reality was actually overcome by Superman's will. Superman also broke free from the magical chains that the Emperor bound him with (after, of course, it was noted that Superman's powers don't work on magic), then got into a fist fight with the Emperor himself. While Supes was mostly on the receiving end here, I see this as an awesome durability display considering the power he was up against. He took a haymaker from the Emperor that literally knocked him "to da moon, Alice" and shrugged it off; got stepped on by an approximately 90 foot tall Emperor; and showed no injury until he had his heart ripped out of his chest....which failed to stop him.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-01-09 09:49pm

Ghost Rider:

[/quote]Jason Todd...Superman in sheer physical contest Batman could do nothing...but you go and make the leap of thinking, that meant a win column.

I guess JLA #1 when Batman outwitted Superman's Superhearing...must mean one for Bats by that inane logic

Oh, yeah, Because Batman could not beat superman with blows that does not count. Even because one of many advantages of Superman is his physical power...Lets use your insane logic. Any victory that Batman used his superior Wits does not count as well. After all Batman can always SH in the chess games. Oh, my.

Of course, stop getting this annoying repetition of only recent JL Comics. They are not good, read other stuff also, the older, its better and it is cannon as well.

As for getting away from the hijacking...is the Force Mystical?

I already told it, I doubt how anyone can still have doubts about this. Force is a mental power. Alike Ajax's telepaty, Xavier's powers, Jean Grey's power. There is nothing mystical there.

I mean is it something truly a magical base...if so...Supes dies literally because he cannot use his powers to directly affect it

Superman is not more vulnerable than anyone to magic. Just because he is so invulnerable that the the mystic powers seems to be so cool. It is because they are one of the few things able to get him. But super have been able to fight and defeat mystical enemies before, tons of them.

JLA#35...Captain Marvel decks Superman with one blow. He actually saysbecause he is mystically enhanced.

JSA/JLA crossover: same thing

Kingdom Come: Mystical Thunderbolt makes Superman Bleed.

Care to back up your bullshit that Supes is going to smack Captain Marvel around?

If you have noticed, Superman won the fight against Marvel in Kigdom come. He turned Marvel in Billy Batson and Hold his mouth. That is Victory.Billy could not say a word, with Super crushing his jaw. That is Super victory. He let Billy free to stop the missile. Superman won.
The fight between then, since DC owned the rights over Marvel family have been even at beast.

If the Force is mystical, Superman's first punch won't do crap...because his physical powers do not directly hurt anything mystical...

This is crap. I saw him punching Destiny, which is a hundred times more powerful than the majority of mystical beings and puting destiny to sleep. He fought and hurt Swamp Thing, Vampires, Etrigan,...They are all mystical. He is vulnerable to magic, but not more vulnerable than anyone alse.
Actually, Phatom Strange said he was able to fight the magic, even being not a magic being, which showed how powerful he was. This is one old Byrne's story.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2003-01-09 10:38pm

Sorry, but Superman would blast Vader to hell and back. He's a Jedi, not a superhero.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-09 11:50pm

Okay dipshit...so eariler canon now alters LATER CANON.

Literally read the JLA/JSA virtues and Vice...one PUNCH and Caoptain Marvel knocks Superman on his ass...and you think using an ALTERNATE REALITY BOOK PROVES YOUR POINT AGAINST CAPTAIN MARVEL?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Also dumbass for your dishonesty at looking at Kingdom Come...

He grabs Billy...note that single small phrase Dumbfuck...or learn how to read your own fucking words...BILLY BATSON...he wasn't crushing Marvel's Jaw...he stood in the Thunderbolt had it revert him back to BILLY FUCKING BATSON

Because let's see another Panel later...Batson says Shazam and becomes Captain Marvel...jeebus you can read right?

Jesus H chirst when people provide evidence one should learn not to provide evidence when it provides exactly what I am proving.

JLA #48-49 disagree...you have a problem take it up with DC who make the rules of Superman.

So is the Force mystical..if so then he's fucked...if not Vader loses, what is so goddamn hard to understand?

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2003-01-09 11:59pm

What's the difference between a 'mystical' energy field and a 'natural' energy field?