Will Airships ever be a mainstream reality?

[FaxModem1]

Just a simple wondering, will we ever see Airships in common use?

Never for military use, of course, but as freighters or luxury liners, or would these things never be used, and if so, why not?

[Darth Raptor]

IIRC, there are plans currently in place to use airships to staff and supply outposts high in the mountains or toward the poles; places where planes can't land and helicopters can't get to. Pretty much any situation where efficiency, cargo capacity and VTOL capability is more important than speed. That's all true today.

When aviation fuel becomes ludicrously expensive to produce and procure, don't be surprised if airships start horning in on the traditional territory of planes and helicopters as well (barring nuclear airplanes and other craziness).

[Darth Wong]

Just a simple wondering, will we ever see Airships in common use?

I expect them to be used heavily by Putin's Soviet invasion forces when they launch their assault on America. Along with giant mutant squids.

[Dalton]

You know, we already have airships. We just call them blimps or zeppelins.

[phongn]

You know, we already have airships. We just call them blimps or zeppelins.

Blimps aren't airships and zeppelins haven't been in widespread use for decades

[Sea Skimmer]

I expect them to be used heavily by Putin's Soviet invasion forces when they launch their assault on America. Along with giant mutant squids.

You didn’t already know the NSA’s Eight Order has a whole armada of them disguised as clouds and spying on the American publics every move? They mess with your mind man, get a helmet quick!

[Uraniun235]

I expect them to be used heavily by Putin's Soviet invasion forces when they launch their assault on America. Along with giant mutant squids.

You didn’t already know the NSA’s Eight Order has a whole armada of them disguised as clouds and spying on the American publics every move? They mess with your mind man, get a helmet quick!

[Bounty]

I hope that proper airships make a come-back someday - maybe as a high-end alternative to transatlantic travel by airplane. Trouble is, I doubt there's much of a market for it at the moment.

[His Divine Shadow]

You know, we already have airships. We just call them blimps or zeppelins.

Blimps aren't airships and zeppelins haven't been in widespread use for decades

Bring back the zeppelins!

[Darth Raptor]

Blimps are very much airships. Any self-propelled aircraft that is heavier than air is an airship, and airships that attain their lift through the use of light gasses (the only real technique currently available to us) are dirigibles. Specifically, blimps are non-rigid airships. "Zeppelin" is a genericized trademark of the Zeppelin Company. Calling all rigid airships zeppelins is like calling any piece of tissue paper a kleenex.

[Spin Echo]

When aviation fuel becomes ludicrously expensive to produce and procure, don't be surprised if airships start horning in on the traditional territory of planes and helicopters as well (barring nuclear airplanes and other craziness).

Don't forget we have a coming helium shortage. The major helium stock pile is expected to only last another 10-25 years, and by the end of the century the only helium we have will be that which we make ourselves.

[Gustav32Vasa]

When aviation fuel becomes ludicrously expensive to produce and procure, don't be surprised if airships start horning in on the traditional territory of planes and helicopters as well (barring nuclear airplanes and other craziness).

Don't forget we have a coming helium shortage. The major helium stock pile is expected to only last another 10-25 years, and by the end of the century the only helium we have will be that which we make ourselves.

Theres lot of helium in the sun, we can mine it.

[Broomstick]

You know, we already have airships. We just call them blimps or zeppelins.

Blimps aren't airships and zeppelins haven't been in widespread use for decades

1) At least in the United States, blimps ARE legally "airships" that is where they appear in the Federal Aviation Regulations.

2) As you point out, zepplins haven't been used in decades. We already had mainstream airships.

There are several problems with airships. First of all, they're HUGE objects. In my area we have a man who owns and flies his own, private two-person blimp. It's meant to carry just two people. It's easily larger than any airplane we get at my local airport, and it can't fit in any of our hangars. Industrial sized airships to carry large numbers of passengers and/or cargo would dwarf a 747. Where do you store these things when you're not using them?

Despite their huge volume, airships carry miniscule amounts of cargo for their size because most of their volume is devoted to lifting gas. The Graf Zepplin might have been comparable in size to the large luxury passenger liners of the day, but it carried a LOT less stuff.

They require far more ground crew than other aircraft. This is not a problem in the third world where labor is cheap, but it would be very expensive in, say, London or New York.

They are competitive with moving people by ship across, say, the Atlantic - which is why they were viable for a short time in the early 20th Century - but not with airplanes. Damn few people in this world will be patient enough to wait days to cross an ocean when airplanes can do it in a few hours. The only way for airships to recapture this market is for airplanes to all go away.

Airships have less tolerance for poor weather than do airplanes. Goodyear expends some significant effort to keep theirs out of bad weather.

There's that business of a potential helium shortage. Airships require a LOT of helium for lift. Of course, even if helium is unobtainable all is not lost - hydrogen is readily available and easily liberated from various compounds by chemical means. In fact, the same quantity of hydrogen has twice the lifting power as an equal quantity/volume of helium so in many ways it's superior to helium. The hitch is, of course, the fact that hydrogen can catch fire or explode and since the Hindenburg blew up folks are a little queasy about using it for lifting gas.

So, really, there's a lot working against using airships in today's world, which is why we don't have them outside very small niche applications.

[Broomstick]

Never for military use, of course

Um... actually they've been used in war. London was bombed multiple times by airship. The US had a military dirigible that could launch and retrieve airplanes, and airborne aircraft carrier. All that disappeared post WWI, when airplanes supplanted airships and became much faster, so much so that the zepps could no longer outrun them.

[Spin Echo]

Theres lot of helium in the sun, we can mine it.

I've heard going to the moon to get more helium; apparently the earth's magnetic field diverts helium given off by the sun and it ends up collecting in the dirt on the moon's surface. However, going to the sun would be so vastly cost inefficient, it's just not practical

In both cases, moon and sun, it would be much cheaper just to make our own helium, albeit more pricey than the cost of getting it from the natural reservoirs. I also think the moon idea was also to get more helium-3, which I'm not sure about our ability to make.

[Broomstick]

How do we "make helium"?

[Winston Blake]

How do we "make helium"?

Bombard lithium with protons. I've seen it proposed as a counter-argument against 'Future space travel will be based Lunar Helium-3!', since we've got lots of lithium. However, I've got no idea how competitive it is if you don't burn it in technomagical reactors.

[Patrick Degan]

Never for military use, of course

Um... actually they've been used in war. London was bombed multiple times by airship. The US had a military dirigible that could launch and retrieve airplanes, and airborne aircraft carrier. All that disappeared post WWI, when airplanes supplanted airships and became much faster, so much so that the zepps could no longer outrun them.

The Navy used blimps for antisubmarine patrol in World War II. By 1945 we had a fleet of nearly 200 airships which were used for long-rage scouting.

[Ariphaos]

In fact, the same quantity of hydrogen has twice the lifting power as an equal quantity/volume of helium so in many ways it's superior to helium. The hitch is, of course, the fact that hydrogen can catch fire or explode and since the Hindenburg blew up folks are a little queasy about using it for lifting gas.

Saying H@ has twice the lifting power is a bit misleading, since it's ultimately relative to the density of the atmosphere - but anyway, it was the paint that did the Hindenburg in, hydrogen did not set it off.

[Darth Raptor]

The moon and the outer gas giants are a long way to go for helium 3, especially if you're just using it to fill dirigibles. I've only seen He3 mining proposed as a source of fuel for super-duper fusion reactors. Something to consider: If we have fusion technology, ordinary helium is a byproduct of fusing hydrogen- which makes a better lifting gas anyway. Having the public overcome their fear of hydrogen-filled airships after the spectacular Hindenberg disaster is no small feat, but it's smaller than building Cloud City on Neptune.

[phongn]

1) At least in the United States, blimps ARE legally "airships" that is where they appear in the Federal Aviation Regulations.

Huh. I always thought that airship implied rigid construction.

There's that business of a potential helium shortage. Airships require a LOT of helium for lift. Of course, even if helium is unobtainable all is not lost - hydrogen is readily available and easily liberated from various compounds by chemical means. In fact, the same quantity of hydrogen has twice the lifting power as an equal quantity/volume of helium so in many ways it's superior to helium. The hitch is, of course, the fact that hydrogen can catch fire or explode and since the Hindenburg blew up folks are a little queasy about using it for lifting gas.

Right, though to be fair it wasn't really the fault of hydrogen that doomed Hindenburg. Perception, OTOH ...

[Admiral Valdemar]

Zeppelin tends to be a catch-all term for rigid ships, while dirigible or blimp are used for what we tend to see today like the Skyship series.

Personally, I want the military to go ahead with more scout ships, heavy cargo lifters and passenger liners as an offshoot. Hell, bring back Goliath. We could have a pebble-bed powered airship that dwarves the Hindenburg and uses hydrogen for extra lift still, but various modern technologies. Ducted variable geometry fans, composite and alloy skeleton and gondolas (if applicable, could all be flush), advanced synthetic skin fabrics, vacuum based retractable docking system for when no mooring tower is available and so on.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Navy used blimps for antisubmarine patrol in World War II. By 1945 we had a fleet of nearly 200 airships which were used for long-rage scouting.

And worse then useless they proved in the end, as they had no realistic chance at all of attacking a U-boat and would be spotted long before they could see a submarine. This meant that an airship cruising along with a convoy gave its position away when the shipping would otherwise be completely hidden below the horizon.

[McC]

This thread prompted me to do some reading on the topic.

but anyway, it was the paint that did the Hindenburg in, hydrogen did not set it off.

Right, though to be fair it wasn't really the fault of hydrogen that doomed Hindenburg. Perception, OTOH ...

This is misleading. Firstly, there is no current consensus as to precisely what did the Hindenburg in. There is a great deal of deserved criticism surrounding all of the multiple hypotheses as to what happened to the Hindenburg, which is a multi-tiered incident with a lot of factors (stress on the airframe, improper maintenance, potential fuel leaks and whether these were diesel fuel leaks or hydrogen leaks, the role the hydrogen played, the role the paint played, the source of the ignition, etc.). Making a blanket statement blaming the paint is, currently, fallacious -- there's insufficient evidence to make any conclusive statement at present.

Huh. I always thought that airship implied rigid construction.

Zeppelin tends to be a catch-all term for rigid ships, while dirigible or blimp are used for what we tend to see today like the Skyship series.

To be completely accurate, anything that depends on buoyancy for lift rather than an airfoil, and has directed thrust, is an airship or dirigible (the directed thrust being the operative distinction between an airship and a balloon). Dirigible is a variant on the French word for "steerable," and as such applies to any airship. There are three types of airships: nonrigid (blimps), semirigid, and rigid (Hindenburg), with the classifications referring to the level of structural support the gas bladders have.

In fact, the same quantity of hydrogen has twice the lifting power as an equal quantity/volume of helium so in many ways it's superior to helium.

Saying H@ has twice the lifting power is a bit misleading, since it's ultimately relative to the density of the atmosphere

Indeed, Wikipedia's airship article examines this very fact. Hydrogen is in fact more buoyant than helium, but only by about 8%.

"Zeppelin" is a genericized trademark of the Zeppelin Company. Calling all rigid airships zeppelins is like calling any piece of tissue paper a kleenex.

I dunno about you, but I do call any piece of tissue paper (destined for my nose, anyway) a kleenex. I don't dispute the accuracy of your statement, of course, but the reality is that Zeppelin's trademark term has come to refer to rigid airships in a general way.

[Wicked Pilot]

Just a simple wondering, will we ever see Airships in common use?

Never for military use, of course,

There is a blimp hovering over Baghdad as we speak. Of course it's on a tether and there's no one on board.


Interesting story, at least 20% true: An above blimp at Al Asad (along the Euphrates in Anbar province) detached in gusty winds and starts floating towards Iranian airspace with it's classified cameras and other equipment on board. So two Strike Eagles get vectored in to take it down, lead rolls in, empties off every round he has, misses, and then over Gs the aircraft to avoid running into it. His wingman then rolls in, empties all of his rounds, and also over Gs the aircraft to avoid a collision. At least in the process of this goatrope he actually scored a hit and the blimp came down. Both aircraft are ground after landing for several hours for over G inspections.

Three cheers for the F-15 pilots, for their courageous dogfight with an unmanned, unpowered balloon over the skies of Iraq!