Creation museum causes Chrisitans to feud... lawsuits ensue

[Darth Wong]

And by the way, does anyone want to argue with me again that Christians aren't complete egotistical morons?

I will. Because, you know, I try not to slam down an entire group of people because of a batshit-crazy minority.

I'm Christian, and I'm not a complete egotistical moron. Slightly idiotic, maybe. And perhaps a bit pretentious. But I haven't quite reached 'complete egotistical moron' status. Still working on it.

The term may seem harsh and insulting and unreasonable, but think about it: part of your core belief is that the Lord God Creator of the entire universe, with all its billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, actually cares deeply about you and your attitudes toward him. In fact, he supposedly sent his only son to die on behalf of us, a species which did not even exist for the first 99.9998% of this universe's history. Now try to be perfectly honest: does that not seem rather egotistical?

[Superman]

In fact, he supposedly sent his only son to die on behalf of us, a species which did not even exist for the first 99.9998% of this universe's history. Now try to be perfectly honest: does that not seem rather egotistical?

Exactly. When you talk to most Christians, they honestly seem to believe that they're humble people who put others first... but in reality, I don't know of any Christian like this. I once watched a pretty well-off businessman from my dad's church proudly spit at a homeless dude and tell him to get a job. I had to fight the urge to go over to him and repeat that, "a rich man going to heaven" verse.

Christians think they have a 'get out of hell free' card. They see the world through a simplistic black and white filter that allows them to hold absolute authority about every gooddamned topic under the sun. They're experts in science, philosophy, medicine...

There's an old saying in psychiatry that goes something like, "the severity of one's narcissism indicates the severity of one's mental illness."

[Superman]

I will. Because, you know, I try not to slam down an entire group of people because of a batshit-crazy minority.

Oh really? If you're an evangelical, have you honestly ever slammed Mormons or Jehovahs' Witnesses?

There's nothing wrong with slamming an entire group of people who choose to belong that group. So we can't slam the entire Ku Klux Klan? What about the Flat Earth Society?

[General Zod]

And by the way, does anyone want to argue with me again that Christians aren't complete egotistical morons?

I will. Because, you know, I try not to slam down an entire group of people because of a batshit-crazy minority.

I'm Christian, and I'm not a complete egotistical moron. Slightly idiotic, maybe. And perhaps a bit pretentious. But I haven't quite reached 'complete egotistical moron' status. Still working on it.

The term may seem harsh and insulting and unreasonable, but think about it: part of your core belief is that the Lord God Creator of the entire universe, with all its billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, actually cares deeply about you and your attitudes toward him. In fact, he supposedly sent his only son to die on behalf of us, a species which did not even exist for the first 99.9998% of this universe's history. Now try to be perfectly honest: does that not seem rather egotistical?

Especially when several interpretations say that he's only going to save a tiny percentage of the human population and let everyone else rot. Yet pretty much every Christian likes to think they'll fall under that category of people who will get saved.

[Coyote]

I know this guy.

[Insert Username Here]

The term may seem harsh and insulting and unreasonable, but think about it: part of your core belief is that the Lord God Creator of the entire universe, with all its billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, actually cares deeply about you and your attitudes toward him. In fact, he supposedly sent his only son to die on behalf of us, a species which did not even exist for the first 99.9998% of this universe's history. Now try to be perfectly honest: does that not seem rather egotistical?

No, not really. I believe he cares just as much about you as he does about me and everyone else. I don't see how it's egotistical to believe that God loves us and cares about us. For the record, I think he loves and cares about all the other creatures that do or have existed, as well. It's all his creation, why wouldn't he care? What specifically do you think is egotistical? That man is more import than other species? That we're just one species on one planet out of billions? Just trying to pin down more specifically your thoughts on it.

For the record, I'm not among the Christians that believes the earth is 6000 years old. Just want to throw that out there, in case it matters in this discussion.

[Surlethe]

What specifically do you think is egotistical? That man is more import than other species?

Bingo. I happen to be Christian (and Supes gets my hackles up pretty often with his sweeping generalizations), but even I can see that the belief God has singled out the human race in particular is pretty arrogant. What objective cause is there to think that humans are somehow singled out especially among the rest of creation?

[Insert Username Here]

Bingo. I happen to be Christian (and Supes gets my hackles up pretty often with his sweeping generalizations), but even I can see that the belief God has singled out the human race in particular is pretty arrogant. What objective cause is there to think that humans are somehow singled out especially among the rest of creation?

I don't know how to answer that without sounding like a dick. Which I suppose proves your point. But how about the simple fact that man is far and away the smarter, more advanced species. We're capable of far greater things (and yes, far worse things) than any other creature in creation. By a long shot.

I don't think it's egotism. I think it's logic and, well, the natural order of things.

Same reason football is so much more obviously a superior sport than baseball.

[OmegaGuy]

Cockroaches are more successful than humans in thriving as a species.

[Superman]

No, not really. I believe he cares just as much about you as he does about me and everyone else. I don't see how it's egotistical to believe that God loves us and cares about us. For the record, I think he loves and cares about all the other creatures that do or have existed, as well. It's all his creation, why wouldn't he care? What specifically do you think is egotistical? That man is more import than other species? That we're just one species on one planet out of billions? Just trying to pin down more specifically your thoughts on it.

For the record, I'm not among the Christians that believes the earth is 6000 years old. Just want to throw that out there, in case it matters in this discussion.

I don't think that you somehow believe yourself to be 'better' than anyone, and I bet you would help almost anyone, given the chance.

What if we take the belief down to the individual person. The belief is that God has singled you out to hear his calling. While millions have gone to hell and live in eternal damnation, you have been singled out to know the truth and have absolute certainty. I think the religion, by its very nature, is inherently egotistical... I really don't see how anyone can get around it.

I guess since one's actions are what really count, doing selfless acts or good deeds would be a way to truly practice a loving faith, but Martin Luthor decided that the trend should be all about belief instead of action.

[Insert Username Here]

Cockroaches are more successful than humans in thriving as a species.

Yeah, but they're still roaches. Can't talk, can't reason, can't use tools, etc.

I think from a purely objective standpoint, humans are easily the most advanced species.

[rhoenix]

I think from a purely objective standpoint, humans are easily the most advanced species.

That reminds me of a quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (and mind you, without the book handy, I'm paraphrasing):

"Humans think they're more intelligent than all other life on their planet because they have computers, nuclear war, and digital watches. Dolphins believe themselves to be smarter than humans for precisely the same reasons, and they swim and play all day."

[Insert Username Here]

What if we take the belief down to the individual person. The belief is that God has singled you out to hear his calling. While millions have gone to hell and live in eternal damnation, you have been singled out to know the truth and have absolute certainty. I think the religion, by its very nature, is inherently egotistical... I really don't see how anyone can get around it.

I do see the point. And to a degree I agree with it. But I have two issues with the argument (yours and the others posted above):

1. I don't agree with the word 'egotistical.' It's a loaded word that implies boastful, conceited, self-important, and whatnot, and I don't think that's quite fair. Throw out a synonym that isn't such a loaded word and I might agree.

2. What is being described as a 'Christian' trait is just as easily applicable to Jews, Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, etc. It's found in all faiths, not just Christianity.

[Superman]

1. I don't agree with the word 'egotistical.' It's a loaded word that implies boastful, conceited, self-important, and whatnot, and I don't think that's quite fair. Throw out a synonym that isn't such a loaded word and I might agree.

When I watch preachers, 'boastful,' 'conceited,' and 'self important' are excellent descriptions. If we think of the egotism as something like 'the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest,' again, this is an excellent description.

2. What is being described as a 'Christian' trait is just as easily applicable to Jews, Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, etc. It's found in all faiths, not just Christianity.

They may be, which only shows that it's human nature. However, selflessness can be synonymous with ones deeds and actions... How does faith even matter?

The Eastern faiths practice more of a sense of community, though, and it's not so much a matter of MY relationship to god, or MY salvation. Christianity and western individualism are a great fit. [/quote]

[Singular Intellect]

Cockroaches are more successful than humans in thriving as a species.

Yeah, but they're still roaches. Can't talk, can't reason, can't use tools, etc.

I think from a purely objective standpoint, humans are easily the most advanced species.

To be more precise, it should be stated that humans are the most technogically advanced species on Earth known to date.

[Insert Username Here]

When I watch preachers, 'boastful,' 'conceited,' and 'self important' are excellent descriptions.

Well, I can't argue there. I'm not a fan of that type of preaching. I certainly won't argue that there are egotistical Christians. I just don't respond well to blanket statements about Christianity.

To be more precise, it should be stated that humans are the most technogically advanced species on Earth known to date.

I wouldn't stop there. I think we're the most intellectually and emotionally advanced as well.

[OmegaGuy]

Wiping out humans would be a lot easier than wiping out roaches.

[Aaron]

I wouldn't stop there. I think we're the most intellectually and emotionally advanced as well.

I suppose thats why we spend such a large amount of time and our intelligence killing each other off as opposed to say dolphins, who do not. And their highly intelligent. Chimps are also highly intelligent and tend not to engage in warfare or murder unless beneficial to the tribe.

[Aaron]

Wiping out humans would be a lot easier than wiping out roaches.

Might help the planet out too in the long run.

[Insert Username Here]

I suppose thats why we spend such a large amount of time and our intelligence killing each other off as opposed to say dolphins, who do not. And their highly intelligent. Chimps are also highly intelligent and tend not to engage in warfare or murder unless beneficial to the tribe.

But that has nothing to do with the argument. Just because we choose to take destructive actions doesn't change the fact that we're the more intelligent. If anything, it confirms that we're the more complex, advanced species. We're capable of doing many more good, enlightened things than any other species, and at the same time we're capable of far more evil, destructive actions.

[Surlethe]

Bingo. I happen to be Christian (and Supes gets my hackles up pretty often with his sweeping generalizations), but even I can see that the belief God has singled out the human race in particular is pretty arrogant. What objective cause is there to think that humans are somehow singled out especially among the rest of creation?

I don't know how to answer that without sounding like a dick. Which I suppose proves your point. But how about the simple fact that man is far and away the smarter, more advanced species. We're capable of far greater things (and yes, far worse things) than any other creature in creation. By a long shot.

So? You missed the subtle point I was making: note that the words "singled out" and "especially" imply that someone was doing the singling out. Is there any objective reason not to simply think that we got lucky, as is strongly implied by the size of the universe and the fact that, as Darth Wong points out, we haven't been around for 99.998% of its history?

I don't think it's egotism. I think it's logic and, well, the natural order of things.

You're correct in your statements, but they don't lead to the conclusion that we've been singled out as a species. As for the "natural order of things", what does that even mean?

[General Zod]

I suppose thats why we spend such a large amount of time and our intelligence killing each other off as opposed to say dolphins, who do not. And their highly intelligent. Chimps are also highly intelligent and tend not to engage in warfare or murder unless beneficial to the tribe.

But that has nothing to do with the argument. Just because we choose to take destructive actions doesn't change the fact that we're the more intelligent. If anything, it confirms that we're the more complex, advanced species. We're capable of doing many more good, enlightened things than any other species, and at the same time we're capable of far more evil, destructive actions.

How does being more complex mean that we're more favorable? God was pretty pissed after Eve ate the Apple and became more complicated than an obedient slave.

[Insert Username Here]

How does being more complex mean that we're more favorable?

It doesn't, in and of itself.

Oh really? If you're an evangelical, have you honestly ever slammed Mormons or Jehovahs' Witnesses?

There's nothing wrong with slamming an entire group of people who choose to belong that group. So we can't slam the entire Ku Klux Klan? What about the Flat Earth Society?

Damn, I totally missed this post.

First, I am totally NOT evangelical.

Second, you're comparing apples to oranges. The KKK and the Flat Earth Society are unified groups. They all believe more or less the same thing and are united. Christianity isn't. Their belief in Christ as the Savior is about where the similarity ends. Different Christian churches have vastly different beliefs, mind sets, attitudes, political desires, etc. Making a sweeping generalization about Christians based on, for example, the Creationists is completely misplaced because other Christian faiths stand at odds with the Creationists and don't believe the same thing.

If you want to make a Christian/KKK comparison, you'd have to pick a particular Christian faith, like Catholics, Mormons, Southern Baptists, etc.

[General Zod]

Second, you're comparing apples to oranges. The KKK and the Flat Earth Society are unified groups. They all believe more or less the same thing and are united.

Bzzt. As of the 60s or 70s (a few decades ago, I forget precisely which) the KKK leaders fractured the Klan membership and declared that there was to no longer be a centralized group and each one is on its own. They're no more unified than Christianity. I don't know enough about the flat earthers to say one way or the other.

Christianity isn't. Their belief in Christ as the Savior is about where the similarity ends. Different Christian churches have vastly different beliefs, mind sets, attitudes, political desires, etc. Making a sweeping generalization about Christians based on, for example, the Creationists is completely misplaced because other Christian faiths stand at odds with the Creationists and don't believe the same thing.

The fact that none of them can agree on precisely which way to worship is a bit telling. There's so many contradictions that they're fighting over then there's no way to be certain which of them managed to get it right. It's pretty hard to take any religion seriously when you have 50 different sects within it that are all saying the other one is wrong and going to hell for not worshipping in their particular style.

[Insert Username Here]

Bzzt. As of the 60s or 70s (a few decades ago, I forget precisely which) the KKK leaders fractured the Klan membership and declared that there was to no longer be a centralized group and each one is on its own. They're no more unified than Christianity. I don't know enough about the flat earthers to say one way or the other.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance of the KKK. But my general point is still valid.

The fact that none of them can agree on precisely which way to worship is a bit telling. There's so many contradictions that they're fighting over then there's no way to be certain which of them managed to get it right. It's pretty hard to take any religion seriously when you have 50 different sects within it that are all saying the other one is wrong and going to hell for not worshipping in their particular style.

Other than the not taking it seriously bit (and it's pretty clear you're not a fan of Christianity), I agree with you. Hence my reasoning that blanket statements about Christianity are inherently false.