Creation museum causes Chrisitans to feud... lawsuits ensue

[Insert Username Here]

Do you think he's wrong? We Christians are indeed irrational; that's another of the reasons why our faith is potentially dangerous, even though it can be used for good, as well. If you don't think irrationality and faith are potentially dangerous, think back to a sunny Tuesday morning in September 2001.

That's why we have to keep a close eye on faith. Sentiments like "morality only comes from religion" are destructive to society, and since there's no objective evidence to back it up, anyone who takes it to be true is taking it on faith. That's the sort of thing you always have to keep in mind when you're thinking about Christianity: live the good parts of the traditions, reject the evil parts.

Totally. When you're dealing with faith, you're dealing with irrationality in large chunks. But I certainly wouldn't call it delusional.

I could go off naming my issues with it, but that would wind up taking several pages most likely, and derailing the thread (even more). Derogatory remarks on subjects by shitheads who don't understand what the fuck they're talking about being one of my problems.

Is it derogatory to say you have issues with religion? I was making an honest observation.

[The Vortex Empire]

Do you think he's wrong? We Christians are indeed irrational; that's another of the reasons why our faith is potentially dangerous, even though it can be used for good, as well. If you don't think irrationality and faith are potentially dangerous, think back to a sunny Tuesday morning in September 2001.

That's why we have to keep a close eye on faith. Sentiments like "morality only comes from religion" are destructive to society, and since there's no objective evidence to back it up, anyone who takes it to be true is taking it on faith. That's the sort of thing you always have to keep in mind when you're thinking about Christianity: live the good parts of the traditions, reject the evil parts.

Totally. When you're dealing with faith, you're dealing with irrationality in large chunks. But I certainly wouldn't call it delusional.

You wouldn't call it delusional to think that the universe was created by a sky pixie? And that the entire human race is descended from two people? That sounds pretty delusional to me.

[Insert Username Here]

It should be obvious when you realize that there are moral atheists and immoral Christians.

I've always been a little hazy on the definition of morality. There's certainly religious morality and non-religious morality in my mind. Sometimes the two meet, sometimes they're far apart. I try to avoid using the word 'morality' in debates for that reason (at least without defining it's meaning at the time).

[General Zod]

Totally. When you're dealing with faith, you're dealing with irrationality in large chunks. But I certainly wouldn't call it delusional.

Main Entry: de·lu·sion
Pronunciation: di-'lü-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
1 : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Bzzt. Try again.

Is it derogatory to say you have issues with religion? I was making an honest observation.

The fact that you somehow think I was referring to you specifically is amusing. Although I did find your quip about being forced to go to Sunday school annoying.

[Surlethe]

Totally. When you're dealing with faith, you're dealing with irrationality in large chunks. But I certainly wouldn't call it delusional.

Why not?

I've always been a little hazy on the definition of morality. There's certainly religious morality and non-religious morality in my mind. Sometimes the two meet, sometimes they're far apart. I try to avoid using the word 'morality' in debates for that reason (at least without defining it's meaning at the time).

Even if it's difficult to define, there's still instinctual morality. Can you conceive of an atheist whose actions are moral, and can you conceive of a self-professed Christian whose actions are immoral? If so, then you'll see that religion does not follow from morality.

[Insert Username Here]

The fact that you somehow think I was referring to you specifically is amusing.

Allow me to throw one of your statements back in response:

It's called "context". You quoted me when you were responding.

[Insert Username Here]

Why not?

Read Zod's definition of delusion that he posted. To accept faith as being delusional is to accept that the faith is based in false belief. That seems to be a direct contradiction.

Even if it's difficult to define, there's still instinctual morality. Can you conceive of an atheist whose actions are moral, and can you conceive of a self-professed Christian whose actions are immoral? If so, then you'll see that religion does not follow from morality.

I do agree that there is instinctual morality. I also think there is a religious morality. And the two aren't necessarily the same thing. Not sure if that makes sense...

[General Zod]

The fact that you somehow think I was referring to you specifically is amusing.

Allow me to throw one of your statements back in response:

It's called "context". You quoted me when you were responding.

Ahem. Learn to read, please.

Derogatory remarks on subjects by shitheads who don't understand what the fuck they're talking about being one of my problems.

Now then, point out where I singled you out specifically as opposed to making a generalization.

[Surlethe]

Read Zod's definition of delusion that he posted. To accept faith as being delusional is to accept that the faith is based in false belief. That seems to be a direct contradiction.

Well? Do you have objective evidence to show, for starters, that God exists? I certainly don't, and I'll bet there are a bunch of atheists here who would love for there to be a life after death.

The point is that there is pretty much 100% confidence that our faith is in vain, that God doesn't exist. Yet, we believe anyway. Why? Well, like I've said, and you've agreed, it's irrational. Therefore, we're probably delusional (although since we can't see, touch, hear, or sense God in any way, it's less of a delusion than the hard-wiring problems of schizophrenics).

I do agree that there is instinctual morality. I also think there is a religious morality. And the two aren't necessarily the same thing. Not sure if that makes sense...

No, it doesn't. Do clarify.

[General Zod]

Read Zod's definition of delusion that he posted. To accept faith as being delusional is to accept that the faith is based in false belief. That seems to be a direct contradiction.

Perhaps you could actually, I dunno, explain why it's a contradiction instead of stating it as fact and expecting us to accept that.

[Insert Username Here]

Well? Do you have objective evidence to show, for starters, that God exists? I certainly don't, and I'll bet there are a bunch of atheists here who would love for there to be a life after death.

Of course not, but I still believe it. By agreeing that I'm delusional, I'm saying that while I believe God exists, I know that belief to be false. That seems contradictory to me. I can, however, see why others would think I'm delusional. I think Scientologists are delusional, but I wouldn't expect them to agree that they're delusional.

The point is that there is pretty much 100% confidence that our faith is in vain, that God doesn't exist. Yet, we believe anyway. Why? Well, like I've said, and you've agreed, it's irrational. Therefore, we're probably delusional (although since we can't see, touch, hear, or sense God in any way, it's less of a delusion than the hard-wiring problems of schizophrenics).

I don't agree there's pretty much 100% confidence that our faith is in vain. Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can anyone prove God doesn't exist. At least I've never seen proof he doesn't exist.

No, it doesn't. Do clarify.

I'll try. But I realize we may be defining morality differently. Guess we'll find out.

Some morality is instinctual. I'd put killing in that camp. I'd like to think that everyone, religious or not, would agree that senselessly killing another person is morally wrong. I, personally, don't feel that bit of morality comes from religion (though many Christians may disagree with me), but that it's instinctual.

On the other hand, some morality is religious. I'll put premarital sex on that list. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the immorality of premarital sex comes from religion.

Does that make any sense?

[Insert Username Here]

Perhaps you could actually, I dunno, explain why it's a contradiction instead of stating it as fact and expecting us to accept that.

I'm pretty sure I did. I have faith in something. But I realize that faith is delusional, therefore wrong. So how can I have faith something is true if I know it's wrong?

[General Zod]

Of course not, but I still believe it. By agreeing that I'm delusional, I'm saying that while I believe God exists, I know that belief to be false. That seems contradictory to me. I can, however, see why others would think I'm delusional. I think Scientologists are delusional, but I wouldn't expect them to agree that they're delusional.

How is belief in an alien overlord that's bent on imprisoning millions of alien souls in humans any more delusional than talking shrubbery or talking snakes?

[General Zod]

Perhaps you could actually, I dunno, explain why it's a contradiction instead of stating it as fact and expecting us to accept that.

I'm pretty sure I did. I have faith in something. But I realize that faith is delusional, therefore wrong. So how can I have faith something is true if I know it's wrong?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. You can be aware something is false but still cling to it irrationally out of some type of insecurities or other psychological issues.

[Insert Username Here]

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. You can be aware something is false but still cling to it irrationally out of some type of insecurities or other psychological issues.

I can really only speak to myself. I have faith that it's true, so I'm not delusional. I wouldn't cling to something irrationally if I already knew it was false.

But like I said, I'm well aware others may think I'm delusional. I'm ok with that.

[General Zod]

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. You can be aware something is false but still cling to it irrationally out of some type of insecurities or other psychological issues.

I can really only speak to myself. I have faith that it's true, so I'm not delusional. I wouldn't cling to something irrationally if I already knew it was false.

People do so all the time. Why should you be any exception?

[Superman]

Actually, religion could easily be viewed in the same light as any other delusion, and the behavior of ritual as any other compulsion. The only difference is that society says it's acceptable. If one tells people that he hears Napoleon talking, he will probably get a free trip to a mental care facility. If that same person hears Jesus, he's a devout Christian.

An individual with schizophrenia will most likely suffer from hallucinations in addition to delusions (Surlethe's meaning was on target, though).

[Insert Username Here]

People do so all the time. Why should you be any exception?

I just don't see any way I can respond to this that would satisfy anyone.

[Gil Hamilton]

I can really only speak to myself. I have faith that it's true, so I'm not delusional. I wouldn't cling to something irrationally if I already knew it was false.

But like I said, I'm well aware others may think I'm delusional. I'm ok with that.

I think the point of a delusion is that the person having it doesn't think its false. How can someone be deluded into thinking something if they in fact don't think it?

[Darth Raptor]

I think the point of a delusion is that the person having it doesn't think its false. How can someone be deluded into thinking something if they in fact don't think it?

You can believe you're correct (and may in fact BE correct) without being able to prove it logically. Not all truths have an intrinsic basis in logic, so believing in something for which there is no evidence (even if true) is delusional. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is expecting other people to subscribe to your delusions and summoning the waahmbulance when they don't.

[Darth Wong]

I can really only speak to myself. I have faith that it's true, so I'm not delusional. I wouldn't cling to something irrationally if I already knew it was false.

But like I said, I'm well aware others may think I'm delusional. I'm ok with that.

Unlike God, Reality doesn't care whether you believe in it. Others do not merely "think" that you're delusional; they know you are, with the same certainty that they know neutrons exist or the Earth revolves around the Sun. As for the question of whether "delusional" is a loaded and insulting and therefore inappropriate term, I'm reminded of Eric Cartman saying "I'm not fat! I'm big-boned!"

[Darth Servo]

I have faith that it's true, so I'm not delusional.

Please explain why having faith in something makes it not a delusion. If some declares their faith in the Easter bunny, does that mean they aren't delusional?

I wouldn't cling to something irrationally if I already knew it was false.

If you knew it was false, you wouldn't have faith in it anymore.

[Superman]

I agree, everyone else knows that these people are delusional.

I was listening to Stern the other day playing clips of one of the Baldwins who has recently turned televangelist. He and some other clown were preaching and telling everyone that Paris Hilton claimed to have found god in jail, and that they should all pray for her.

The fact that they would pray for an extremely rich cunt over... oh, I dunno, say children who die every day from AIDS in Africa, is a big reason why I can't take any of this seriously. It's almost like evangelical/fundamentalists all share a common thought disorder where they just don't see the big picture in life. They fail to grasp that there's a big world with lots of religions, they pray for raises at work and for Paris Hilton when kids are dying daily from starvation and horrible diseases in other parts of the world...

They're mostly stuck up in their own heads and worry about having the correct belief. I would argue that the point of religion is about helping people to suffer less, and that these types of Christians are broken.