Who is the best commander..Thrawn or Kirk

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-09 07:38pm

Having read Star Crossed at least a 100 times (awesome story) I have a question? Assuming equal firepower (Kirk captures a SSD?..I don't know how) who would win in a confornation...Kirk or Thrawn

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-09 07:39pm

Kirk may or may not be better at motivating his forces, but if Thrawn has any number of ships at all (with Kirk having the same number) he will win. Basically, Kirk MIGHT be a better Captain, but Thrawn is a MUCH better Admiral.

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-09 07:45pm

That is a good point..I was thinking more along the lines of a one on one conflict but yours is a good point

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-09 07:48pm

That is a good point..I was thinking more along the lines of a one on one conflict but yours is a good point

Haven't seen you before....

POKE

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-09 07:52pm

I have read the site for a long time..took quite awhile to gather up the courage to post...I started off thinking Star Trek would whop everything but now I have changed my position..love the SD.net but do not have much time 3 kids and all....

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-01-09 07:52pm

This scenario is actually slightly biased against Kirk. Let's say that they're both equally good Captains. But the simple fact is that Thrawn used Imperial tech for far longer, and thus he's more familiar with it and all its strengths and limits - which gives him an advantage.

As a sideline, whenever I read the part where Kirk gets an ISD and outmaneuvers an Imperial's ISD in Fist of the Empire (the FanFic,) I could never quite get the thought out of my head that Kirk should still be learning the system, and even HE would not dare that maneuver because he should still be feeling the limits, and Scotty should also still be learning the system no matter how realistically good he is. They should not be at 100%, yet they managed to outmaneuver the enemy ISD, whose Captain and Engineer had probably a hundred or thousand times of hours of working with the ship. I feel queasy.

Of course, if we put them both in a GCS or something, the reverse may well be true. How could Thrawn have possibly thought his reactor was so cheap that a karate kick would set it to blow?

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-01-09 08:38pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Kirk may or may not be better at motivating his forces, but if Thrawn has any number of ships at all (with Kirk having the same number) he will win. Basically, Kirk MIGHT be a better Captain, but Thrawn is a MUCH better Admiral.

Exactly! It all boils down into the size of the fight. If its 1 v 1 then Kirk might win. Although Thrawn in Heir to the Empire did manage to win against being outnumbered and outgunned (1 ISD vs several Reb. Assualt Frigates). That event also shows that in single ship combat Thrawn would still win over Kirk in any FAIR encounter.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-09 09:11pm

Kirk is a better commander in that I think he gets more out of his men, he inspires them better and they are more loyal to him. As seen in numerous episodes of teh shows and the movies where the other crewmen (particularly in STIII) are willing to throw away their lives and livelihood for him AND each other.

That is as a COMMANDER.

As an admiral or warlord, Thrawn takes this. Kirk puts up a helluva good fight, but Thrawn simply lives and breathes this stuff. War is what he is and Kirk was a part time warrior AND a diplomat. He fought better than most but he was by no means the embodiment of strategy that Thrawn is obviously meant to be.

On a character Level, Kirk is a far more rounded character and more enjoyable to write and read in action.

Of course the ultimate answer to this question will be revealed very shortly.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-09 09:15pm

When it comes to a tactical encounter Thrawn walks away with the prize.
If it was a popularity contest within the crews they commanded....Kirk is better at being liked/inspiring etc....

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2003-01-09 09:49pm

Although Kirk is probably the better captain I think Thrawn would still own him on 1v1 battle.

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-09 09:51pm

Stravo wrote:
On a character Level, Kirk is a far more rounded character and more enjoyable to write and read in action.

Of course the ultimate answer to this question will be revealed very shortly.

Please tell me when...this story is making me lost sleep trying to figure out it.....

Of course Kirk is the master of the surprise tactic and is expert of pulling a miracle out of his hat....I think Kirk would win barely and he had an awesome support team (Scotty, Spock etc..) but my judgement might be clouded by my love for the orginal show..I have seen every show at least twice and it was one of the main reasons I wanted to work in TV and edit TV stuff..some of those old shows were the best......

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-01-09 09:56pm

In terms of strategy and tactics, Thrawn wins. This is the guy who beat the best of Palpatine's forces at a two to one numerical disadvantage with just 6 patrol craft.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-09 10:21pm

Stravo you know that I love you man, but sometimes one has to mean in order to be kind. This Kirk blind spot is a character flaw that I realised in you from the first time this topic was started way back when. *shakes head* Time to put and end to it!

Stravo wrote:Kirk is a better commander in that I think he gets more out of his men, he inspires them better and they are more loyal to him. As seen in numerous episodes of teh shows and the movies where the other crewmen (particularly in STIII) are willing to throw away their lives and livelihood for him AND each other.

This is, from my point of view, a flawed statement. We have neumerous examples of Thrawn's ability to inspire and command loyalty from his officers, and his men; Reference the Thrawn trilogy, Pellaeon makes a reference that when Thrawn first returned to known space, his men were willing to be lead by him, however near the end of the trilogy, they were willing to die for him.

In the Thrawn duology, we see a much more obvious example of how Thrawn, a fake Thrawn, was able to inspire a beaten Remenant into it's former glory. How star systems allied to the New Republic flocked to his banner. And even more convincing are the actions of the fleet in the Unkown Regions, where they were awaiting his return. They continue to do their duty in the belief that he would return to lead them again after a 10 year absense. Also I would like to point out the immense loyalty that he insipred in all of his troops, including those that were forcably kid-napped and pressed into his service (Baron Fel)!

I would also make the point that this wasn't just one ship, with one crew, but a whole dammed fleet! Honestly I think you were grasping at straws with that statement.

Stravo wrote:As an admiral or warlord, Thrawn takes this. Kirk puts up a helluva good fight, but Thrawn simply lives and breathes this stuff. War is what he is and Kirk was a part time warrior AND a diplomat. He fought better than most but he was by no means the embodiment of strategy that Thrawn is obviously meant to be.

While I agree with the premise of this paragraph I wish to also point out that Thrawn was by no means a 'gung-ho' military man. Witness the way he treats his conquered, he is just as mindful of diplomacy as he is about strategy in a military conflict. Thrawn is the epitome of the 'Sun Tzu' tought General, he realises that war, politics and psycology are all inter-related.

Stravo wrote:On a character Level, Kirk is a far more rounded character and more enjoyable to write and read in action.

Of course the ultimate answer to this question will be revealed very shortly.

I have made my feelings clear on this matter before, but as I also stated it is your story, and you have lead me up a fair garden path, and I have trust in what-ever you do with this, it will be fitting for both characters!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-09 11:25pm

Crown,

I never denied my love and affection for the Kirk character and I admitted from the start this is his story, he's the hero, but at the same time I love the Thrawn character and respect his fan base tremendously. I don't think that anyone will be unhappy with how this all turns out. As you have duly noted I have been as fair as one can be to both sides of the story without straining credibility.

But I agree, Thrawn is not just a military machine, I did not mean to paint him that way as just some warlord like Genghis kahn. He is far more calculating and cunning than that.

But let's all remember, he is a villain, he is evil and he wants to conquer the galaxy in the name of his emperor.

Anyway, I am not arguing with you Crown in case you think I'm pissed, far from it, I was just clarrifying my position.

Considering the upcoming chapters I wanted it to be absolutely clear where I stood on the issue.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-09 11:55pm

As has been said, Kirk is a better CAPTAIN, Thrawn is a better ADMIRAL.

So, where does this leave us?

Let's compare (this is how I see it, nothing more):

A ship can't function without a captain.
A fleet can't function without an Admiral.

POINT TO THRAWN

Kirk motivates his men by being RIGHT THERE, willing to take a hit and die alongside them.
Thrawn motivates his men by whipping them into a righteous fury and ensuring from afar they will survive

POINT TO KIRK

If a fleet were to lose all its captains, the Admiral would have a tough time working with their replacements
If a fleet is to lose its Admiral, he can be replaced by the most senior captain, although this is really a quick fix

POINT TO KIRK

Both men show remarkable courage, ingenuity, and coolness under pressure

TIE

When Kirk doesn't like someone, clashes begin.
When Thrawn doesn't like someone, he keeps clashes to a minimum.

POINT TO THRAWN

Kirk has single-handedly saved Earth.
Thrawn has single-handedly plotted numeruos victories for the Empire, and was cheated from attaining true victory.

POINT TO THRAWN

Kirk believe all species have a right to be heard.
Thrawn kept the noghri in bondage

POINT TO KIRK

So, now we get

Kirk: 4
Thrawn: 4

TIEBREAKER

Kirk faced a tough road because he was promoted to Captain at a very young age.
Thrawn faced a near-impossible road because he was nonhuman.

POINT TO THRAWN

THRAWN WINS

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-10 09:36am

YOU FORGOT...

Kirk gets more pussy.

POINT TO KIRK.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-10 09:51am

I FORGOT...

Kirk has debunked/destroyed many gods.

POINT TO KIRK.

Kirk is an accomplished pugilist (this seems to be very important quality for TOS era Starfleet captains.)

POINT TO KIRK.

Kirk has succesfully bluffed/cheated himself out from a now win situations several times (Kobyashi Maru, "The Corbomite manouver, ST III Etc.) and thus shown himself to be a good poker player and a ballsy commander.

POINT TO KIRK.

Kirk has single-handedly saved Earth.
Thrawn has single-handedly plotted numeruos victories for the Empire, and was cheated from attaining true victory.

POINT TO THRAWN

This needs to changed to:

Kirk has single-handedly saved Earth and the Galaxy on several occasions.
Thrawn has single-handedly plotted numeruos victories for the Empire, and was cheated from attaining true victory.

POINT TO KIRK.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-10 10:03am

Point to Thrawn

That was not just a 2:1 Numerical Advantage it was a 3:1 And his ships where less armed than the Enemies he face, and He Beat them WITHOUT CAUSILITES

In ST Terms Thats like the E-A taking on 11 Warbirds by itself and wining

Also Thrawn is not nessarily evil, The greatness of Zahn's writing protrays that, The NR is becoming the Empire and hoplessly sliding into corruption, Even as the Empire Reunites under a new Leader and THIER old corruptions and faults are swept aside, He even manages to Convice Fel(The equivlant of Kirk Convicing Khan to join him) to fight for him and his side

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-10 10:17am

Mr Bean wrote:Point to Thrawn

That was not just a 2:1 Numerical Advantage it was a 3:1 And his ships where less armed than the Enemies he face, and He Beat them WITHOUT CAUSILITES

In ST Terms Thats like the E-A taking on 11 Warbirds by itself and wining

Also Thrawn is not nessarily evil, The greatness of Zahn's writing protrays that, The NR is becoming the Empire and hoplessly sliding into corruption, Even as the Empire Reunites under a new Leader and THIER old corruptions and faults are swept aside, He even manages to Convice Fel(The equivlant of Kirk Convicing Khan to join him) to fight for him and his side

Bean I can't agree with you on the NR becoming just like the Empire. The novels as the prequels show that yes the Republic was corrupt and ineffeicient, but then again, so are most democracies. What GL was showing was the alternative...a harsh despotic Empire that ruled with an iron fist was still corrupt and took everyone's freedom away. At least under the Republic (both old and new) there were freedoms and choices to be made. GL may not love the system of democracy but as stated in AOTC: "Once we stop believing in democarcy it no longer works"

The alternatives are far harsher as shown in teh films.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-10 12:00pm

Sir Sirius wrote:YOU FORGOT...

Kirk gets more pussy.

POINT TO KIRK.

This affects his command skills HOW?

Kirk has succesfully bluffed/cheated himself out from a now win situations several times (Kobyashi Maru, "The Corbomite manouver, ST III Etc.) and thus shown himself to be a good poker player and a ballsy commander.

POINT TO KIRK.

He's a good poker player. Wheeeee.

And I already went over his command skills, shithead, or didn't you see:

Both men show remarkable courage, ingenuity, and coolness under pressure

TIE

Quit trying to stack Kirk's side.

This needs to changed to:

Kirk has single-handedly saved Earth and the Galaxy on several occasions.
Thrawn has single-handedly plotted numeruos victories for the Empire, and was cheated from attaining true victory.

POINT TO KIRK.

Did Krik transform a meek, dying Federation into an aggressive, heavy-hitting opponent that threatened a government far larger than itself? No. Did Kirk manage to come up with crazy inventive tactics? Yes. Did he use those tactics to score victory after victory for the Feds? No.

Ruhk's actions do not detract from Thrawn's abilities.

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-01-10 02:09pm

Point to Tharwn his abilty to study art work of races and being able to form near perfect tactics from the art work to defeat them. He also inspired more fear in his enemies then his own people effectivly raising Morale another 2 points.

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-10 02:34pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
As a sideline, whenever I read the part where Kirk gets an ISD and outmaneuvers an Imperial's ISD in Fist of the Empire (the FanFic,) I could never quite get the thought out of my head that Kirk should still be learning the system, and even HE would not dare that maneuver because he should still be feeling the limits, and Scotty should also still be learning the system no matter how realistically good he is. They should not be at 100%, yet they managed to outmaneuver the enemy ISD, whose Captain and Engineer had probably a hundred or thousand times of hours of working with the ship. I feel queasy.

I have never read Fist of the Empire..I tried searching for it but no luck..do you have a link??

Thanks

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-01-10 07:23pm

I want to know what five morons clicked the kirk button....they need to be Hadokened post haste.

Sir Sirus.

Have you ever read the books involving Thrawn by Timothy Zahn(Gah I had to look up his name, I am forever shamed)? If not I suggest you do.

If you did read the books, read them again only THIS time, I suggest taking your head out of your ass, it tends to help reading the process.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-01-10 07:36pm

http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/marina.html

BTW, I think "red" is left and "green" is right - I think, I've really forgotten. But Marina seems to like these terms

macman · Post by **macman** » 2003-01-10 10:07pm

Thanks alot

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