STGOD: A Dead Art?

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Adrian Laguna
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Hotfoot wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:I don't see how it would be genocide. Unless you want to accuse both the United States and the Soviet Union of planning genocide against each other during the Cold War. So long as you only target things of military importance (basically everything but subsistence farming), it's not genocide. Oh, and you need to stop the bombardment if they surrender.
Hmm, let's see. Destroying each other's entire nation, killing millions upon millions of civilians in the process, and potentially destroying all life on the planet in the process.

You're right, that's not genocide, it's XENOCIDE. :roll:
No, it's strategic bombardment. It's also legal, de facto if not necessarily de jure.
Seriously though, are you responding to the right post?
I wasn't, and if you had read my subsequent post you would have noticed that I realized my mistake. Here it is again, with extra emphasis, for your benefit:
Me wrote:Oh, I thought they meant simply levelling every population centre and military base, as well as destroying all infrastructure. Like the bombing of Germany and Japan in the Second World War, or the nuclear bombardment plans established during the Cold War. It would kill billions of people, but still be perfectly legal. Unless they manage to get a surrender through all the jamming, then the bombarding fleet is required to stand down.
What you actually meant was "killing everyone" which is geno/xenocide.

So there is no argument here. Unless you want to argue that strategic bombardment constitutes genocide, that would require a different thread.
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Post by UCBooties »

As of now, no one knows where Blackmast is, though there is probably a general idea that we are somewhere in that region of space due to operational ranges, targets of choice, etc. But to actually figure out where we are is going to take some doing.
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Post by Covenant »

As part of the "Here there be Dragons" coalition, I'm an unknown to the Earth powers as well, but mine is a doubleblind. I don't know much about anyone else either, Earth excepted, and only because I used to live there.

My space may be mapped by other local powers, but my civilization is pretty under the radar. I doubt anyone outside of my local proximity would have even bumped into the Dinosaurs. Those near me may know how to find a Confederation vessel if they need to chat, but just like the Wanderers and the others in this corner, a lot of these guys keep it quiet.
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Post by rhoenix »

Same story here - Gliesans don't tend to draw attention to themselves usually. Observers, if they were clever, would have noticed that my civilization sprang up rather quickly, and has accelerated since. Until now, they haven't really tried to communicate with anyone.
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Post by Academia Nut »

The Straltoc are in the "We don't hide our location, but distance has made us isolated" category. If you ask us, we'll tell you where we are, but otherwise we've only started communicating with others recently so our territory is probably mostly unknown.
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Post by Cincinnatus »

The Dwarves aren't secretive at all, due to the fact that they like to trade with everyone and anyone. Their existence and location should be common knowledge.
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Post by Shinn Langley Soryu »

The Congress of Colonial Settlements, despite directly bordering the two Americas and being within extremely close proximity to the Polish Republic and the UISC, is quite isolationist. President Mitsuishi said so herself: most of the Terran powers don't even know the CCS exists.
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Post by Tanasinn »

The Glorious Khurlassian Republic openly broadcasts its presence and searches for other nations. Its borders are one of the things the Republic is always honest about, but the exact number of outposts, asteroid mining ops, and minor space stations is subject to widely varying descriptions. Nine of the ten primary Republic worlds are fairly well-documented, to encourage trade and (carefully restricted) immigration. The Republic is quite deceptive about all things military, and does not allow foreign vessels near Ellorn or its shipyards, making foreign knowledge of it essentially unknown.
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Post by rhoenix »

What I'm finding fascinating is that I'm getting a glimpse of each player's psychology, and gameplay style in reading your posts and OOB's.

By that same token, I've tried to carefully keep certain things about my faction shrouded, and upfront about others.

Inspiration for how they came about (for the curious) came from Spartans & Samurai of history, the Protoss from the game Starcraft, the games Parasite Eve 1 & 2 (for the PS1), modern-day Israel in reality (mainly how every citizen is at least briefly a member of the military), and plenty of my own touches. A good portion of the tech used is more or less copy & pasted, with some alterations, from a scifi story I was working on.
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Post by UCBooties »

What I'm finding fascinating is that I'm getting a glimpse of each player's psychology, and gameplay style in reading your posts and OOB's.


I am grimly curious about what you have gleaned from my psychology from my game stuff. Can you elaborate, or at least PM me?
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Post by Covenant »

UCBooties wrote:
What I'm finding fascinating is that I'm getting a glimpse of each player's psychology, and gameplay style in reading your posts and OOB's.


I am grimly curious about what you have gleaned from my psychology from my game stuff. Can you elaborate, or at least PM me?
I'm a little interested in what one could glean from a Confederation of spacefaring dinosaurs with ships named after geology.
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Post by Academia Nut »

Minor question on rules. How do we work with NPC factions? Do we PM one of the moderators to talk about what we want to do or what?
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Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I am curious to see if ANyone oustide of NGTO friends have picked up on the various clues I have been droping as to the 'True' ruler of the UISC.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Academia Nut wrote:Minor question on rules. How do we work with NPC factions? Do we PM one of the moderators to talk about what we want to do or what?
Generally yes.
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Post by rhoenix »

Covenant wrote:I'm a little interested in what one could glean from a Confederation of spacefaring dinosaurs with ships named after geology.
Well, you apparently have a soft spot in your heart for Calvin & Hobbes, which makes me happy.
Crossroads Inc. wrote:I am curious to see if ANyone oustide of NGTO friends have picked up on the various clues I have been droping as to the 'True' ruler of the UISC.
By that same token, I was wondering if anyone was picking up on the subtle hints I've been dropping about my people. ;)
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Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Spyder wrote:~Oh God, she's coming. Don't think about midget scat porn, don't think about midget scat porn...shit, shit shit! I'm thinking about midget scat porn aren't I?
May I say I LOVE Telepaths? And that, as we migth guess, being able to read other peoples minds is a rather large mixed blessing...
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Dark Hellion
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Post by Dark Hellion »

OK, fuck off darkevil and starglider. This probe thing is clearly an attempt to get me eliminated, and I would have been fine, if you went through the right fucking channels. But you performed numerous actions without my consent, and without giving me a chance to respond, and now that I am finally getting PMs, they consist of "well you couldn't do shit anyways so tough luck." That's bullshit. I had an RP worked out with Hawkwings that you have interrupted, as well as the fact that you are still going ahead with this shit.
I want a mod to come here, and sort this shit out. I am pissed, Noble Ire knows why, hopefully everyone who has read this thread knows why, and this fucking pissing around with me is bullshit. Besides chronology problems (when the fuck did the attack on Nephilim territory happen in comparison to the probe incident, what was my communication status at the time, where was I?) we also have the fact that you have to have faked it, because a military use probe will skuttle itself with low-yield, self-destruct explosives the instant it thinks it's compramised, which a shit ton of jamming directed against it is a fucking obvious clue of that. It's a ridiculously complex operation, one that would take a lot of planning, great coordination, with my intelligence systems you would have to have used secure coms the whole fucking time. You also had to make a fucking replica of the probe that will withstand scrutiny on video. In what, a weeks time. Un-fucking-believable. I tried to roll with the punches, but every reply I get is "we didn't think it was a big deal" when they are threatening me with nearly 3000 points of combined fleet. Of course it's a fucking big deal, and without me getting to get a single real response in, because I didn't know what the fuck was going on, I am now facing down annihiliation. Bullshit guys. Bull-fucking shit and you know it, and others are smelling it too.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Sounds like I get to earn my pay. The involved parties should contact me or another mod so this mess can get sorted out.
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Post by Dark Hellion »

Here's the problem Overlord, I don't know who the involved parties are, and I am at the center of it. Seems exactly like the situations that PMs are supposed to be used to avoid huh? :roll:
Seriously guys, I would have let you get away with this, if you had just sent me a single fucking PM before you did it.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

As a rule, you don't fuck with a guys stuff. You post actions and then discuss the results with the player in question. If you have to put something ultra sneaky into action that you feel uncomfortable discussing with a player, you PM a mod so it is all above board. Note that consequences has no problems posting that sneaky stuff from his guys that are "nuke from orbit until its extra dead" evil in the main game thread.

So everyone involved give me nice PMs with their actions listed in chronological order so I can start sorting things out.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Adrian Laguna wrote:No, it's strategic bombardment. It's also legal, de facto if not necessarily de jure.
So you're saying that there weren't nukes pointed at major civilian population centers? Because that's the only way you're proving that point. Moreover, let's not forget that the argument of "If it's legal it must be right" is bullshit, unless you support the MPAA and the RIAA wholeheartedly.

Of course, it's also FALSE according to the Geneva Conventions, but why let a little thing like that get in the way of your argument.
Geneva Conventions wrote:carpet bombing

Area bombardments and other indiscriminate attacks are forbidden. If it becomes apparent that an objective is not a military one, or if an attack is expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects then the attack must be canceled or suspended. (Protocol I, Art. 57, Sec. 2b)

An indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects and resulting in excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 3)
So there is no argument here. Unless you want to argue that strategic bombardment constitutes genocide, that would require a different thread.
It is when you include EVERY CIVILIAN POPULATION CENTER. Just because we did it in World War 2 doesn't make it right. Believe it or not, we weren't total angels in that war, and not everything we did was right, righteous, or even legal. Attacking civilian populations has always been a tactic of terror. It says you're willing to kill anyone and everyone that stands in your way. You can handwave it away and try to justify it, but the simple fact remains that you're saying that wiping out civilians is justifiable in any given war for any reason. Never mind that in the case of conquest you're killing the majority of your trained workforce, you're killing millions, if not billions of sentient beings.

Now it's clear that you are really stretching the definition of a military target by including civilian population centers, but hey, that's okay. That gives us all a clearer picture of what you consider to be right and wrong. Clearly, you think it's just fine to kill civilians until they're all gone or they give up. It's an interesting philosophy, but it's not necessarily "right" or even "legal".

By the way, since you seem to love the letter of the law so much, here's some more:
Geneva Conventions wrote:Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)
Now, obviously, this doesn't necessarily apply to the STGOD, since I doubt the numerous space aliens have signed the Geneva Conventions, or that those even exist as originally written anymore, but the fact of the matter remains that what you consider to be an absolute certainty is in fact not. Granted, it's up to the players to see if they will bother getting upset about someone bombarding a city into rubble from orbit, but that's the gambit you make when you do general bombardment. In some cases, you can get away with it pretty easy. Other times, well, not so much.
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Shinn Langley Soryu
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Post by Shinn Langley Soryu »

rhoenix wrote:What I'm finding fascinating is that I'm getting a glimpse of each player's psychology, and gameplay style in reading your posts and OOB's.
I would believe that a faction that names its ships after anime characters (among other things) would be pretty straightforward.
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Post by consequences »

In one respect, I am sorry, as I probably should have PMed a mod before I started on my mad quest for power.


The truly obnoxious thing is that I find I am liking the Drakol Imperium far more than my own power.
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Post by Dark Hellion »

Ok, not to rain on everyones parade, but I am requesting a Retcon of the probe incident. Despite my repeated requests to be informed of happenings, and the fact that I still don't have an accurate timeline of events, they have gone ahead and continued posting. I am sick of it. You don't start a major fucking war involving over half a dozen factions without informing one of those factions.
Fuck you again Starglider, and Fuck you DarkEvilme and fuck whoever else was involved in keeping this shit behind my back. Thank you Noble Ire, Rhoenix for being transparent and for communicating what you know. Thank you Imperial Overlord for being extremely patient, and for dealing with my sleep related pissyness.
Guys, if you would have stopped posting, sent me a few quick PMs and waited a few fucking hours this wouldn't have happened. I have been off work the past week, and have been on SD.net checking every few hous, and all I got to do was watch posts pile up, without me knowing what was going on, and all of a sudden I am facing a 250 ship fleet. You could have sent me a PM any fucking time. So now I have to shut the whole fucking game down just so I can finally know what the hell is happening with my own shit.
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Post by Darkevilme »

Ahem, dark hellion, you asked what happened with the probe pretty early on, we told you, we changed the story several times as you tried to make it seem the thing was harmless, then that it had a scuttling charge (bombs do not make harmless). The story is now that the probe was discreetly replaced with a fake that then did the drop. You cannot turn around and flat out lie that me and starglider have not kept you informed, i admit i responded with a little rudeness, well maybe a lot of rudeness but that was more a reflection of how you phrased your questions in the first place.
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