Dr. Who Ep. 2913: Last Of The Time Lords [Spoilers]

Post by **Vympel** » 2007-07-01 07:07am

No. That'd suck.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-01 08:09am

Bounty wrote:Last week, the machine had been charging up for god-knows-how-long to make the paradox, but a year later is was just idling to keep the paradox running. I think.

Stop doing the writers work for them. Clearly, simply blasting the Master and the Machine would have worked fine - but KILLING IS BAD ZOMG.

Bounty wrote:
Ugh.
Oh, you just hate everything. Martha a bad companion? "Ugh" as a comment? Got anything less substantial to say?

Sorry I missed the part where she did anything.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-01 08:10am

GHETTO - the obvious 'he'll be back' shot basically ruined all the good Master/Doctor stuff: shooting him dead was obviously the Master's backup plan the whole time (god knows his stupid bitch was otherwise completely useless). He's dead, lots of pathos, poor hypocritical coward Doctor

OH WAIT NO HE ISN'T LOL JUST KIDDING.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 08:34am

Vegi wrote:Come on! The Doctor burns The Master? And just leaves him!?! Did he forget that Time Lords can regenerate post-mortem?

The Regenerative process can almost be destroyed by anaestetic (TVM) never mind being burnt to a crisp. Vapourisation is sufficient to trump it, too (Arc of Infinity, others) and cremation is one step down from that.

Did he forget that The Master has survived being nothing but ash before? (see 1996 movie).

That wasn't a normal regeneration. That was some freaky goa'uld symbiote crossed with a T-1000 thing.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 08:58am

Prayer: I'm sorry... It's okay for Sutekh to have mind powers enough to blast the Earth to a ball of ashes, but a hive mind of humanity can't briefly regenerate the Doctor and give him some telekinesis? You know, it wasn't actually meant to be prayer, the Master happened to say that. Prayer would imply the intervention of a superior being. An actual prayer answer would involve summoning the White Guardian or something.

In the same way, Deus ex Machina is becoming an over-used phrase around here. The Parting of the Ways is a Deus ex Machina, Rose Tyler literally becomes a god and solves the plot. The Doctor briefly regenerating and doing a bit of telekinesis is hardly in the same league. He doesn't even destroy the Toclafane. Sorry, it's a fantasy world, where the Doctor is a telepath, can pull objects out of thin air, and travels around in a telepathic space ship powered by the special spacial properties of Cardiff.

By lambasting every time the protagonists do something to surprise you as another DeM you limit plot to pathetic, absolutely linear things where everything is immediately spelled out in advance and the protagonists act like complete dumbasses all the way through.

Oh, and according to the commentry, Lucy Saxon shot her abusive husband in all good faith. as such, I'm betting on the blonde woman with the police Saxon's ring.

frogcurry · Post by **frogcurry** » 2007-07-01 09:15am

The problem with the hive-mind solution is that is doesn't require any build-up or intelligence, it just goes OMG I have a badass superpower now hah haha ha. Its a Star Trek TNG style solution to a problem; give the characters a one-shot superweapon that they don't need to work for and which will never turn up in any form, shape or manner in the storyline again. And thats a cop-out.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 09:19am

frogcurry wrote:The problem with the hive-mind solution is that is doesn't require any build-up or intelligence, it just goes OMG I have a badass superpower now hah haha ha. Its a Star Trek TNG style solution to a problem; give the characters a one-shot superweapon that they don't need to work for and which will never turn up in any form, shape or manner in the storyline again. And thats a cop-out.

Are you kidding? Martha spent a year going around the world... preaching... in order to get that result. YOU DIDN'T SEE IT ALL but it happened. This is precisely what I mean; moaning that it's a Deus Ex Machina because it was something done by the protagonists that happened to surprise the audience. As for whether you'll see it again; I would hope the Doctor plans to do something about the Master's Mind Control Network at the first opportunity, just as I would hope he'd plan to go and find some way for the Toclafane to 'escape.' You will see the Doctor's mind powers again, at some point, this particular one? No. I seriously doubt there'll be any realistic opportunity for a recurrance of that, so why should it be in the storyline again?

Han Solo showing up and shooting the TIE fighters away in Star Wars is much more of a DeM than this is.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 10:07am

As for complaining about the 'no killing' routine, sorry, it's kids/family television. They're not going to have the Doctor go around killing unless there's an immediate danger that can be solved by it; killing the Master in the last episode would have accomplished nothing and for the record, in this one, he did try to shoot the Master with his own ray gun when he had it. He didn't later, because the Master was no physical threat to him, or anyone, at that stage.

It's not an episode-specific thing, either. The Doctor doesn't rely on gizmos; there's no reason why he shouldn't be going around with god's own energy-shield by now, after all. He doesn't kill people unless he really has to, and all those tired hero cliches.

It certainly wasn't the best episode in the season, not by a long way. But people grinding their teeth and complaining about 'the reset button' and 'the Deus ex Machina' is a little unfair. It's not gritty, edgy, hardcore everything-is-grim TV like nBSG, it's family entertainment. The good guys are going to win. No serious lasting harm is going to be done to modern day Earth, and alas, irritate me though it does, some people are still going to deny the existance of aliens.

And frankly, having seen the Dr Who team's effort at gritty, hardcore television, I'll take my so-called Deus ex Machinas and reset buttons (never mind that the great offense of Voyager's reset button is that it prevented character development, something that was clearly not the problem here) over grim-Doctor shagging his way through everything and then angsting about it endlessly.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-07-01 10:13am

Was anyone else hoping that the Master would end up travelling around with the Doctor? I'd really liked that aspect of Scream of the Shalka and it would be neat to do it in the main series for a little while.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 10:17am

Drooling Iguana wrote:Was anyone else hoping that the Master would end up travelling around with the Doctor? I'd really liked that aspect of Scream of the Shalka and it would be neat to do it in the main series for a little while.

Yes, I was, actually. Though he'd probably escape every other week.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-01 10:35am

The Master would be the best Companion ever.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 10:48am

Lord Woodlouse wrote:The Master would be the best Companion ever.

Humm... If I'd had my way, by now, the TARDIS would have The Master and Dalek Sec in it.

The comedy value of that...

Vegi · Post by **Vegi** » 2007-07-01 01:05pm

NecronLord wrote:That wasn't a normal regeneration. That was some freaky goa'uld symbiote crossed with a T-1000 thing.

There is no evidence that would indicate he could not simply do that again. The Doctor said himself not 10 minutes earlier, The Master would not just simply kill himself.

And was it just me, or did Lucy Saxon have a black eye? Look at her right eye in a few scenes. It's not there the whole time.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 02:10pm

Vegi wrote: There is no evidence that would indicate he could not simply do that again.

There is no evidence what the Master-morphant was. Presumably some kind of alien technology. It was not something he regenerated into, as he had no regenerations at that stage. And it seems... unlikely to say the least that the Time Lords were kind enough to supply him with the ability to tun into a gel-snake when they gave him an entirely new body.

The Doctor said himself not 10 minutes earlier, The Master would not just simply kill himself.

Uhuh. And then he just did it in front of the Doctor. And the Doctor burnt his body to make sure. What more do you want?

And was it just me, or did Lucy Saxon have a black eye? Look at her right eye in a few scenes. It's not there the whole time.

Yes. The Master was abusive, according to the commentry. That's why she turned on him.

Vegi · Post by **Vegi** » 2007-07-01 02:53pm

NecronLord wrote:There is no evidence what the Master-morphant was. Presumably some kind of alien technology. It was not something he regenerated into, as he had no regenerations at that stage. And it seems... unlikely to say the least that the Time Lords were kind enough to supply him with the ability to tun into a gel-snake when they gave him an entirely new body.

The Master has been body hopping without regenerations since the Tom Baker years. Why would you think he couldn't still do this? Do you have any evidence that it's some exotic technology that for some inexplicable reason has never been mentioned in the entire history of the show or are you just making this up as you go?

Uhuh. And then he just did it in front of the Doctor. And the Doctor burnt his body to make sure. What more do you want?

You're missing my point. Lucy killed The Master. And he didn't regenerate immediatly. However, he did not put himself in a position in which he could not come back from the dead. If the planet is destroyed and his remains are scattered across the cosmos....then sure I can see it being rather difficult for him to come back. If The Doctor takes his ashes and throws them into a black hole...then sure....he's probably dead permanently. But leaving him in a state in which The Doctor knows first hand he's already returned from before and trusting that The Master will stay dead just to spite The Doctor?

That's just wishful thinking. I expect more from The Doctor. He's smarter than that.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » 2007-07-01 04:22pm

NecronLord wrote:As for complaining about the 'no killing' routine, sorry, it's kids/family television. They're not going to have the Doctor go around killing unless there's an immediate danger that can be solved by it; killing the Master in the last episode would have accomplished nothing and for the record, in this one, he did try to shoot the Master with his own ray gun when he had it. He didn't later, because the Master was no physical threat to him, or anyone, at that stage.

Welllll.. The Doctor probably knew quite well that the Master would have a lockout on his laser screwdriver. His plan hinged on the Master believing that he had sent Martha to assemble a weapon to kill him, afterall.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 06:10pm

Vegi wrote:The Master has been body hopping without regenerations since the Tom Baker years. Why would you think he couldn't still do this? Do you have any evidence that it's some exotic technology that for some inexplicable reason has never been mentioned in the entire history of the show or are you just making this up as you go?

Irrelevant. His absorbtion of Tremas (the only instance of him ever actually possessing someone else that springs to mind was not only entirely different, it happened when he was not dead. And yes, there was technology involved. You will note that Tremas touched the Master's TARDIS, suddenly freezes up, the Master appears, and steps into him. I would certainly have attributed that to his massively-multifunctional TARDIS, the one that shoots rays out of its eyes rather than some bizzare mind power.

You're missing my point. Lucy killed The Master. And he didn't regenerate immediatly. However, he did not put himself in a position in which he could not come back from the dead. If the planet is destroyed and his remains are scattered across the cosmos....then sure I can see it being rather difficult for him to come back. If The Doctor takes his ashes and throws them into a black hole...then sure....he's probably dead permanently. But leaving him in a state in which The Doctor knows first hand he's already returned from before and trusting that The Master will stay dead just to spite The Doctor?

Uhuh. And the Doctor should keep on expecting the Master to return from being burnt to a crisp throughly. Ignoring how long the remains might have been supervised there without any sign of a Morphant, body switching, or anything else.

And he's returned from a black hole, too, using your reasoning, he shouldn't do that, as it's not secure enough.

That's just wishful thinking. I expect more from The Doctor. He's smarter than that.

No he's not. He's a bleeding moron who has a permanant infection of the Red Dwarf luck virus. Seriously, he's been travelling for hundreds of years, and doesn't even have any kind of body armour, even when practically any time he lands, he gets shot at. He's been captured more times than you can shake a stick at, and he's not even bothered to invest in a fairly commonplace personal transport device.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-07-01 06:18pm

Good but not quite brilliant, for writing reasons as usual. I'd be ok with either the 'shoot it = reset button, even though it was going to explode before' or the 'techno-prayer gives the doctor super-powers' on their own, but the combination was a bit too much cheese. The OMG MUST NOT KILL was indeed excessive and made the 10th Doctor a considerably less sympathetic character. If it hadn't been for amazing luck, billions of humans would be dead and trillions of beings would be about to die because he didn't just take out a man who had already mass-murdered a good fraction of the universe. I'm sorry but there's no excuse for that other than moral cowardice - which is fine as a character flaw if there's some kind of recognition of it, but no it's just unrelenting 'the Doctor is the most wonderful thing ever' hero-worship.

Stark wrote:I will say it had one high-point, though. They finally ejected the abortion of a companion, Martha Jones. What a worthless exercise that was.

Jack was criminally underused in the last episode, but I don't know what your problem with Martha was. She's not amazing (since she's neither Ace, Romana nor Leela

) but she seemed ok, comparable to Rose in fact (maybe a little too similar in the end). Care to elaborate?

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2007-07-01 06:26pm

NecronLord wrote:
Vegi wrote:The Master has been body hopping without regenerations since the Tom Baker years. Why would you think he couldn't still do this? Do you have any evidence that it's some exotic technology that for some inexplicable reason has never been mentioned in the entire history of the show or are you just making this up as you go?

Irrelevant. His absorbtion of Tremas (the only instance of him ever actually possessing someone else that springs to mind was not only entirely different, it happened when he was not dead. And yes, there was technology involved. You will note that Tremas touched the Master's TARDIS, suddenly freezes up, the Master appears, and steps into him. I would certainly have attributed that to his massively-multifunctional TARDIS, the one that shoots rays out of its eyes rather than some bizzare mind power.

If I recall correctly the Master was using the last few ebbs of the Source to take over Tremas & rejuvenate his body. The episode makes it rather unclear.

Besides, the Master? Dead? Pah! He's indestructable, the whole universe knows that.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2007-07-01 06:33pm

I dunno, the master seemed really pathetic there at the end. Nomatter what he's ever gonna do I'm always gonna see the crazy little guy who didn't want to hear he was forgiven.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-01 06:34pm

DocHorror wrote:If I recall correctly the Master was using the last few ebbs of the Source to take over Tremas & rejuvenate his body. The episode makes it rather unclear.

Ah yes. I seem to recall him saying something about using the Keeper's vast and vaguely defined (technologically generated) powers to do that. Thank you.

Besides, the Master? Dead? Pah! He's indestructable, the whole universe knows that.

Quite so. If the Doctor wanted to be sure, pushing him in a Black Hole wouldn't do, watching his remains wouldn't do (the Morphant was more than quick enough to get past him, last time), and nor would burning.

The only solution seems to be to lock him behind every mirror.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-07-01 06:34pm

DocHorror wrote:Besides, the Master? Dead? Pah! He's indestructable, the whole universe knows that.

Just wait until he possesses Captain Jack. I bet John Barrowman would play an even better Master than Eric Roberts!

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2007-07-01 08:33pm

By the way, those spheres they said something... "just the dark" they where fleeing from the dark wheren't they? Torchwood reference?

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2007-07-01 09:06pm

NecronLord wrote:The only solution seems to be to lock him behind every mirror. :lol:

That trick only works on lesser beings. :-p

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-01 10:09pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:By the way, those spheres they said something... "just the dark" they where fleeing from the dark wheren't they? Torchwood reference?

Stop highlighting the loose threads! They dropped huge bricks of expositions about 'zomg teh drums', and the Time Lords etc, and it was all IRRELEVANT.

While I think the two parter is probably the weakest ep of the season (made worse by the utter win of Utopia), my problems with the Super Doctor are twofold. One, the Master was clueless - he had no idea that would happen, or how this power would manifest (reverse aging? Flight? Shields? I mean, for fuck). Secondly, he regenerated the clothes that had been thrown in the bin, thus loosing the appropriate 'landing on his bare feet' shot that would have emphasised the (to my mind stupid) themes of forgiveness and mercy, as exemplified by Christian saints.

I think I'll make an edit of PotW just for NL: right after the God of Thunder solves everything, I'll cut in some shots of the voidship and some Sec dialogue. Look! I just undercut the whole point of the drama!

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Dr. Who Ep. 2913: Last Of The Time Lords [Spoilers]

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