Concentration of the Force in an individual

[Darth Fanboy]

Throughout the SW timeline we routinely see followers of both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force push each other to the brink of extinction, only to have the tables turned at some point in time afterwards, usually through the efforts of one powerful individual (Bane, Sidious, Luke Skywalker as examples with Cade Skywalker being another potential member of this group).

Do you feel that this is an indicator of the Light Side or Dark Side of the Force becoming more potent when it is utilized by few as opposed to many? This was Darth Bane's rationale for implementing the Rule of Two, but later on we see Luke Skywalker, the Last of the Jedi, rise up to defeat the Empire and defeat that which had annhilated the Jedi Order at its peak. Also, if this were true, then wouldn't the battle between Luke and Vader/Palpatine on the Death Star II probably the most monumental battle between Light and Dark in the entire series? Luke's Light, Palpatine's Dark, and the split psyche of Vader caught right in the middle. It really makes RoTJ that much more captivating to me and brings that feel of the Battle of Endor transcending beyond fleets and armies.

This doesn't have to apply to the Jedi and Sith Orders per say, just either of the dual natures of the Force.

Alternatively, do you believe this is just a series of coincidences (remember, Suspension of Disbelief, so we cannot just sit back and chalk it up to George Lucas, or other SW authors and writers) or that the shifts we see between the Jedi and Sith are influenced through other means. Perhaps Luke was just that strong, and it had little to do with him being the last Jedi?

Summarizing the babbling:

Is Bane's idea of the Force "concentrating" in an individual true for both Light and Dark? Or Just the Dark Side? Or do you think he was off base entirely?

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't think so. Luke Skywalker doesn't triumph by his mastery of the Force, which never equals that of the Emperor (and he only overcomes Vader through fury and surprise) but by appealing to the good left in his father. Sidious is powerful, but both Yoda and Mace Windu are near equals.

[Surlethe]

I don't know about "concentrating", as though the power of the Force in an individual is loosely inversely proportional to the number of Force users on that side of the black/white divide, but it does seem to link into Knife's idea of the Force itself orchestrating events and bringing itself balance.

[TC Pilot]

Dark Siders are almost inevitably more powerful than Light Siders. Palpatine was the most powerful Force user to ever exist, with absolutely no equals.

Bane's hypothesis of "diluting" the power of the Dark Side does not so much have to do with the number, but with the problem that comes along with that number. Group dynamics don't neccesarily encourage the emotions of a Dark Sider. You can't have a functional army full of raging psychopaths and mass-murderers. Eventually, they'll turn on each other and destroy themselves (as happened with the original Sith and was begining with Revan's), or you have neutered Sith like Kaan's army who for the sake of the group won't facilitate the full array of possibilities the Dark Side offers.

With Bane's Order, it's all about the power. One holds the power, the other covets it. The master can act as he wishes, so long as in the end he perpetuates the Sith line.

The Force isn't a limited power source. Or, if it is limited, it's got a limit so large that no individual or group could ever hope to deplete it.

Remember the old Sith proverb: "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

[Cykeisme]

I disagree with the assessment of "power levels" in the individuals discussed.

Anakin Skywalker is quite expressly stated (both in-universe, and Lucas' writers intent) to be the most powerful Force user to ever exist. His confidence was rather undermined after his defeat at Mustafar, not to mention that his injuries would have no doubt limited his ability to focus.
His son Luke is also supposed to be at pretty wanky levels in the movie continuity.

Sidious is indeed powerful, but not as much as the Skywalkers. He does, however, have the advantage of having a millenium (and more) of Sith secrets, and the experience to use them.

Something that has to be taken into account is the idea the difference between potential and actual strength. The Dark Side allows a user to immediately tap almost all his potential, which is why a user of the Dark Side is more powerful.. and also how Luke managed to beat Vader, by simply tapping into his vast potential despite his lack of experience and training.

To summarize, Luke is that strong.

Besides, the events that transpired in the throne room on the second Death Star were prophecized long before.. the Chosen One destroying the Sith.


TC Pilot is right that the main reason for the Rule of Two is to prevent infighting, not dilution of a limited pool of energy.. it's been explicitly stated as such.

[Dark Flame]

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but at several points in the NJO, Luke and others mention a concentration of Force powers when there are many Jedi around.

For example, when the Jedi used their Force meld, there would have to be many Jedi, and it was mentioned that the more Jedi there were, the stronger and more effective the meld was.

In NJO, Edge of Victory:Conquest, Ikrit mentions that Anakin and Tahiri are strongest when working together, and that when they are together they are stronger than the sum of their parts.

In another space fight, Luke mentioned that "The Force was on our side today, because there were so many Jedi out there." Or something like that.

These examples show the opposite of what the OP show. When there are more Force users, the Force is concentrated and each is more powerful.

[Havok]

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but at several points in the NJO, Luke and others mention a concentration of Force powers when there are many Jedi around.

For example, when the Jedi used their Force meld, there would have to be many Jedi, and it was mentioned that the more Jedi there were, the stronger and more effective the meld was.

In NJO, Edge of Victory:Conquest, Ikrit mentions that Anakin and Tahiri are strongest when working together, and that when they are together they are stronger than the sum of their parts.

In another space fight, Luke mentioned that "The Force was on our side today, because there were so many Jedi out there." Or something like that.

These examples show the opposite of what the OP show. When there are more Force users, the Force is concentrated and each is more powerful.

Wouldn't that support the OP. When Force users gather and act as ONE they are more powerful then when they are spread out and using it separately. The Force is an energy field, and in something as big as a Galaxy does it matter if that energy field is concentrated in a 6 foot tall man, or say, a 1000 square mile area of space?

[Imperial Overlord]

[
Wouldn't that support the OP. When Force users gather and act as ONE they are more powerful then when they are spread out and using it separately. The Force is an energy field, and in something as big as a Galaxy does it matter if that energy field is concentrated in a 6 foot tall man, or say, a 1000 square mile area of space?

No, because channeling a lot of the Force clearly involves strain on the part of the Force user. The Force is awesomely powerful, but even Palpatine and Yoda have limits on how much they can use.

[Cykeisme]

In NJO, Edge of Victory:Conquest, Ikrit mentions that Anakin and Tahiri are strongest when working together, and that when they are together they are stronger than the sum of their parts.

Taking this in particular (and referring to the rest of the references in its vein in general), it's possible that "strongest" isn't referring to raw energy output (or the mystical equivalent), but more in the same sense that infantry and armor assets are mroe than the sum of their parts in a combined arms situation..

Nooot the best analogy, but I think it gets the gist of it across.

[Dark Flame]

I think I see what you're saying, Cykeisme, but I disagree. They used raw Force power in a way that neither of them could on their own. It wasn't like a combined arms approach, it was pure, unrestrained Force power.

And to agree with Imperial Overlord, they were exhausted afterwards. In the same book it said that ideally a Jedi should be able to use the Force without tiring, but no Jedi has learned how to, or has the strength to, do that.

[(name here)]

Since the force meld is a fusion, the whole must be at least the sum of it's parts, minus the energy to focus the meld. If the energy of the force meld is used to draw on the force, it could draw more power through each member than said member can generate alone. It is also possible that the force meld is a path of least resistance to the ambient force energy, and it has a natural tendency to flow into the meld.

[Zixinus]

I think that the idea of how the entire Jedi are extinct (although, I think they are hiding, I can't image that you can kill every Jedi in the galaxy, even if you took out their base) is the very dramatic basis that the Star Wars series is revolved around, as well as the consequences of these action.

From pure canon (taking the definition that purely basing on the film, not the games or books) there was no other event such like this. How many times do you think that the Jedi Order was exterminated?
Even if we assume KOTOR more or less canon (that's how far I got regarding the SW's history), most Jedi either gone into hiding or became a Sith.

The Sith being exterminated is not a great surprise to me. The "dark side" favours negative emotions, and negative emotions are not always helpful socially. As mentioned previously, can you keep an army of murderers and psychopaths in line? Not so hard to image with the serene and disciplined Jedi. I myself can't image an academy or an organized system the Jedi ran with the Smith.

Furthermore, I don't think there is an actual dark or light side of the force. I think its all in the dualist mind of the force users, after all, all of those we met are humanoid. If the end of the climax of the trilogy, when Vader shoves his master into the pit, were to play out differently or Luke merely not escaped, I think there would be random force sensitivities popping up, and whether they would choose the dark or light side, would be up to them, not to the Force.

[TC Pilot]

From pure canon (taking the definition that purely basing on the film, not the games or books) there was no other event such like this. How many times do you think that the Jedi Order was exterminated?

The KOTOR era came pretty close to wiping out the Jedi. Only a hundred or so Jedi survived the Jedi Civil War, and most of those were wiped out by Darth Nihilus. The rest, many of which the Exile has the chance to kill in Sith Lords, simply went into hiding and gave up being Jedi, for all intents and purposes.

The Jedi Purge after the Clone Wars was much more thorough. Off the top of my head, only a couple Jedi actually were still around as of ANH: Obi-Wan, Yoda, Rahn, and K'kruhk

Furthermore, I don't think there is an actual dark or light side of the force. I think its all in the dualist mind of the force users, after all, all of those we met are humanoid.

If the end of the climax of the trilogy, when Vader shoves his master into the pit, were to play out differently or Luke merely not escaped, I think there would be random force sensitivities popping up, and whether they would choose the dark or light side, would be up to them, not to the Force.

Without the training to access the Force in ways that it would manifest more than just apparent luck or vague precognition, an individual would never be confronted with the choice between the Light and Dark Sides.

[Havok]

Furthermore, I don't think there is an actual dark or light side of the force. I think its all in the dualist mind of the force users, after all, all of those we met are humanoid. If the end of the climax of the trilogy, when Vader shoves his master into the pit, were to play out differently or Luke merely not escaped, I think there would be random force sensitivities popping up, and whether they would choose the dark or light side, would be up to them, not to the Force.

Well, if we are going on purely movie canon, then there is definetly a Dark and Light side. It is mentioned repeatedly by the strongest and wisest of Force users in the movies. If a fully trained Jedi Knight (Anakin) and a Master (Dooku) can choose the Dark Side why wouldn't an untrained person not be susceptible to that same fate. Besides, the Dark or Light path IS a matter of choices and which emotions you focus the Force through.

[Zixinus]

The KOTOR era came pretty close to wiping out the Jedi.

Yes, but Lucas wasn't the one that wrote KOTOR.

*insert picture of Yoda here*

I was referring to mindset, but physically Yoda is still quite humanoid. He's essentially a gnome with funny hands and feet.

Without the training to access the Force in ways that it would manifest more than just apparent luck or vague precognition, an individual would never be confronted with the choice between the Light and Dark Sides.

I assumed that the force sensitive would be trained somehow.

Are there Force autodidacts?

Well, if we are going on purely movie canon, then there is definetly a Dark and Light side. It is mentioned repeatedly by the strongest and wisest of Force users in the movies. If a fully trained Jedi Knight (Anakin) and a Master (Dooku) can choose the Dark Side why wouldn't an untrained person not be susceptible to that same fate. Besides, the Dark or Light path IS a matter of choices and which emotions you focus the Force through.

It's a pet theory. The idea is that the "dark side" is a personification, a bit like "the beast" is with vampires in The Masquerade.

The point is whether the Force chooses who's dark or light side, and whether force "concentrates" with population.

[TC Pilot]

Yes, but Lucas wasn't the one that wrote KOTOR.

What difference does it make who wrote it?

I was referring to mindset

Any attempt to disprove the Dark Side has a substantial amount to explain away, as well as undermining the general premise of the movies.

Whether it's its own "sentient" form or simply the actions of individuals perverting the Force, there is a Dark Side. Korriban, Ziost, Dagobah's tree-cave all bear the mark of the Dark Side. Hell, even animals can be genetically warped by the Dark Side. It's there, regardless of philosophical quibling.

but physically Yoda is still quite humanoid. He's essentially a gnome with funny hands and feet.

You have an incredibly loose understanding of what it is to be humanoid. Yoda is about as humanoid as Jabba or Chewie is.

I assumed that the force sensitive would be trained somehow.

Trained Force users don't just "pop up" in the manner you implied. Force sensitives would inevitably do so, but their abilities would only manifest themselves in minor ways, such as Anakin's reactions allowing him to podrace.

Are there Force autodidacts?

There has to have been at least one to have formed groups like the Sith or Jedi to begin with. In the incredibly unlikely and rare instance a Force sensitive managed to train himself, ultimately, yes, he would be faced with a choice between Lightness and Darkness.

[Flagg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that humanoid essentially means "2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 torso, 2 ears, 2 eyes, 1 mouth, and 1 nose". As in the basic human form. That would make Chewie and Yoda humanoid.

[chitoryu12]

Well, he was right about one thing. Jabba is hardly humanoid (though he almost is. He's just missing the legs).

[TC Pilot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that humanoid essentially means "2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 torso, 2 ears, 2 eyes, 1 mouth, and 1 nose". As in the basic human form. That would make Chewie and Yoda humanoid.

Here's what the Wookieepedia has to say on it:

Classification of a species as "humanoid" was not standardized or strict. Generally, a humanoid species had to have a similar anatomy to Humans at least in some degrees: that is, an upward bipedal stance, a head with two eyes, nose for breathing and smelling and mouth for nutrition and communication. Symmetrically arranged on either side of the torso (which is the main section of the body) were two arms -- each of which ended in hands that had a variable number of fingers (used for manipulation of objects) -- and two legs -- which ended in feet (used for locomotion). Humanoids generally had scarce hair, mainly concentrated on head or face.

Slight variations and deviations from this general 'template' could be overlooked and a species could still be classified as humanoid. For example Duros had no ears, nose, or hair; Twi'leks had two large headtails; and many non-Humanoids had Humanoid features. Wookiees, although seeming animalic, could be called humanoids.

Non-humanoid aliens had distinctly nonhuman characteristics, such as tails, additional limbs (or even no limbs, as with the Slith), wings, additional heads (as the Cha'wen'hes), or invertebrate characteristics (as the Gree).

Overall, I think that works out quite nicely.

[Flagg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that humanoid essentially means "2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 torso, 2 ears, 2 eyes, 1 mouth, and 1 nose". As in the basic human form. That would make Chewie and Yoda humanoid.

Here's what the Wookieepedia has to say on it:

Classification of a species as "humanoid" was not standardized or strict. Generally, a humanoid species had to have a similar anatomy to Humans at least in some degrees: that is, an upward bipedal stance, a head with two eyes, nose for breathing and smelling and mouth for nutrition and communication. Symmetrically arranged on either side of the torso (which is the main section of the body) were two arms -- each of which ended in hands that had a variable number of fingers (used for manipulation of objects) -- and two legs -- which ended in feet (used for locomotion). Humanoids generally had scarce hair, mainly concentrated on head or face.

Slight variations and deviations from this general 'template' could be overlooked and a species could still be classified as humanoid. For example Duros had no ears, nose, or hair; Twi'leks had two large headtails; and many non-Humanoids had Humanoid features. Wookiees, although seeming animalic, could be called humanoids.

Non-humanoid aliens had distinctly nonhuman characteristics, such as tails, additional limbs (or even no limbs, as with the Slith), wings, additional heads (as the Cha'wen'hes), or invertebrate characteristics (as the Gree).

Overall, I think that works out quite nicely.

So Yoda and Wookies are humanoids.

[TC Pilot]

In a way, yes. I personally wouldn't consider Wookiees or Calamari to be even remotely human, but that's personal preference. But my point remains essentially the same, the virtually all-inclusiveness of "humanoid" notwithstanding.

[Lord Revan]

at least one member of the jedi council was not a humanoid (the one with the huge beard had no legs what so ever)

Edit:that person being Oppo Rancisis.

[Flagg]

at least one member of the jedi council was not a humanoid (the one with the huge beard had no legs what so ever)

Edit:that person being Oppo Rancisis.

Is that due to his species, or did he lose them at some point?

[Dark Flame]

Oppo Rancisis was a Thisspiasian and they did not have legs, but instead have a large tail. They also have four arms.

Personally I think they look like creepy mermaids.

[Lord Revan]

at least one member of the jedi council was not a humanoid (the one with the huge beard had no legs what so ever)

Edit:that person being Oppo Rancisis.

Is that due to his species, or did he lose them at some point?

species.

his species are serpentine with 4 arms (though see only 2 in the movies)