Dr. Who Ep. 2913: Last Of The Time Lords [Spoilers]

[NecronLord]

I like how BO assumes the Master meant to take over the universe in one fell sweep.

"Those Romans. Retarded. How could one city possibly build an empire, they're collossaly outnumbered" "The British. Tiny island. No way they could take over a third of the world. They just don't have enough troops."

The Master was going to attack a single world with two hundred thousand warships, and then use that one's resources... The new Time Lord empire would be built the same way as every other empire is built. Piece by piece.

[Lord Woodlouse]

The Master explicitly says in the episode that this is just the first strike. It would create an empire, from which further conquest could be launched.

[Hitch Hiker]

Does anyone else get tired with Starks ranting?

[Ariphaos]

You know, before the Sound of Drums, I originally thought that the Master was going to gain the willing, complicit support of the human populace after some major alien attack and he begins to lead humanity in galactic conquest, with the last two episodes basically detailing his rise to power, and the fourth season going back to the story-arc style with various resistance groups trying to bring the Master down.

Seriously, like he needed the Toclafane?

...I wonder if they ever even bothered to float ideas like that.

[Crazedwraith]

You know, before the Sound of Drums, I originally thought that the Master was going to gain the willing, complicit support of the human populace after some major alien attack and he begins to lead humanity in galactic conquest, with the last two episodes basically detailing his rise to power, and the fourth season going back to the story-arc style with various resistance groups trying to bring the Master down.

Seriously, like he needed the Toclafane?

...I wonder if they ever even bothered to float ideas like that.

The problem is if they keep wanting to do the excellent Chrismas specials you've got to have everything sorted by the end of the last episode. So no real loose ends or cliffhangers if you don't want to resolve them then.

On the subject of Christmas specials, presumbly this year's being on the Titantic won't be taking place 'on Chrismas Day' as the other two were on 25th of decemeber 2005 and 6. But I suppose many more of those and the in-universe people would be owndering why there's always an alien invasion at Christmas

[NecronLord]

The Master explicitly says in the episode that this is just the first strike. It would create an empire, from which further conquest could be launched.

Bingo. And two hundred thousand 'black hole converter' powered warships is more than sufficient to take most planets, I should hope.

[Stark]

Still waiting for your 'why Martha sucks' rant Stark. Go on. You know you want to.

Not 'sucks', per se, just 'dramatically worthless'. I mean, she followed him round for a bit, then left. Huzzah? Even the Doctor was 'kk bai'. Unlike Rose, who was an inseperable part of the first two seasons, I feel Martha could be replaced by 'generic companion' and the third season would be exactly the same, but with less faux medical dialogue.

Xeriar has a point - I imagined the Master to be an Evil Prime Minister, not a raging psychopath with piles of useless exposition and a whole 'drums lol' thing that goes nowhere and soldiers that magically change sides.

[Darwin]

The Master explicitly says in the episode that this is just the first strike. It would create an empire, from which further conquest could be launched.

Bingo. And two hundred thousand 'black hole converter' powered warships is more than sufficient to take most planets, I should hope.

Rocketships. like right out of Flash Gordon.

Say what you will, but The Master's sense of aesthetics is superb.

[Stark]

Does anyone else get tired with Starks ranting?

PS it's impossible, irritating and probably illegal for me to have an 'unconstructive' opinion about anything... but it's totally fine for people to have similarly 'unconstructive' opinions about me! It's great to be a fanboy, yo ho ho, it's great to be a fanboy tee hee hee!

[Lord Woodlouse]

I'd be very surprised if the drums thing is not foreshadowing for something further down the road.

[DocHorror]

You know, before the Sound of Drums, I originally thought that the Master was going to gain the willing, complicit support of the human populace after some major alien attack and he begins to lead humanity in galactic conquest, with the last two episodes basically detailing his rise to power, and the fourth season going back to the story-arc style with various resistance groups trying to bring the Master down.

Seriously, like he needed the Toclafane?

...I wonder if they ever even bothered to float ideas like that.

They probably do, then they realise its beyond their budget & John Simm won't commit to a 6 month shoot.

[Jon]

This scene just rocked

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eTqU4uFixd0

and I don't even like the Scissor Sisters

[DocHorror]

*Sigh* I'll admit to being quite conflicted by this episode. It has some great moments, let down by some incredible stupidity.

What was with making the Master a wife beater? As if he wasn't evil enough do they have to reduce him the the level of a stella-ed up football thug? To me it comes across as a cheap way of saying 'ooh he's bad, look he beats up girls.'

The Toclafane/Utopia thing was good, the idea of the paradox was good - even if it did end in a reset button.

The Doctors reaction to the 'death' of the Master was good, even if the Ming the Merciless bit at the end cheapened it. To be honest they didn't need to include it, we know he'll return. Perhaps not as John Simm, but in some form or other.

I kinda need to watch some of it again as we had leaving-house-party while it was on & I had to be antisocial & watch it while people yapped away over it.

[Big Orange]

The Master was going to attack a single world with two hundred thousand warships, and then use that one's resources... The new Time Lord empire would be built the same way as every other empire is built. Piece by piece.

That makes sense to a certain extent, but the Emperor Dalek and even the Cult of Skaro would be a better position than the Master was in "LotTL" after they conquered Earth, since they were essentially the winning side in the Time War (until the Doctor pulled the carpet from under them) and Daleks are more adaptive than humanoids in using resources (although the Master did a lot with a limited budget).

And did anyone else think that Russel T. Davies was being cowardly in fixing the billion+ Earth deaths and resetting events by a year? He played a similar ploy when Rose "died" but she merely got trapped in the alternative Earth and the authorities back home wrongly assumed that she died. It would've been more daring that the destruction of the Paradox Machine totally nullified the Toclafane from existence but the carnage they and the Master inflicted remained unchanged. But then again Doctor Who is relatively light family entertainment and it perhaps shouldn't be so overly downbeat.

And just irritate Stark I thought "Utopia" was a little contrived if humans of the year 100 trillion still drove around in Leyland trucks and carried AK-47s. Only the return of Captain Jack and Derek Jacobi as Professor Yana/the Master made "Utopia" better than the sum of it's parts; the real meat and potatoes in this three parter was "The Sound of Drums" ("Last of the Time Lords" was still very good, but things deflated somewhat when we had most events reset by a year, even though there was adequate enough explanation).

and soldiers that magically change sides.

You mean opportunistic (or blackmailed) henchmen lept off the Master bandwagon in the same way the "loyal" Lucy Saxon magically shot him? You think that this was the first historical instance of soldiers turning on their leader after a moment of weakness?

[Starglider]

And did anyone else think that Russel T. Davies was being cowardly in fixing the billion+ Earth deaths and resetting events by a year?

I'm ok with it as long as it doesn't happen again next season. This show had better not turn into Voyager (though I don't think even RTD would write the kind of total reset button script Voyager repeatedly suffered from).

[Stark]

And just irritate Stark I thought "Utopia" was a little contrived if humans of the year 100 trillion still drove around in Leyland trucks and carried AK-47s.

Unlike true idiots, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. However, the hilarious 'AKs with scopes' and 'zomg futurekind we could have just shot to death whenever' stuff wasn't particularly significant: just nits to pick in an otherwise great ep. When the whole thrust of the episode is stupid, or contrived, or boring, etc, that is a much bigger problem. The return of Captain Jack (and the awesome Jack/Doctor) stuff was a big part of Utopia's awesome, just like the absolutely pathetic plugging of Torchwood and Jack's departure was part of the suck of the finale.

You mean opportunistic (or blackmailed) henchmen lept off the Master bandwagon in the same way the "loyal" Lucy Saxon magically shot him? You think that this was the first historical instance of soldiers turning on their leader after a moment of weakness?

This is what I hate about you: you're so STUPID. You can dishonestly snip a tiny sentence fragment and not address my actual point - you must be learning! No shit, people change sides, thanks for bringing that to my attention. Sadly, we're talking about DRAMA, and after the utterly retarded behaviour of the Master's troops, having them simply change sides with no explanation is weak - particularly galling is the clear comradeire between Jack and the guard guy, and their absolutely INSTANT 'die to save the world I was just butchering' about-face. Room for some good drama there, but I guess they wasted too much screentime on irrelevant 'drums' silliness that went nowhere and did nothing.

Clearly you care more about largely irrelevant details like AKs than giant hammerblows of writers fiat driving an episode to it's retared biblical conclusion.

[Straha]

Here's a question:

The Valiant went back in time to just before the Paradox machine went off, right? But we know there were Toclafane there before it went off. So what happens to them?

I wont even touch the matter of the death of all the important people who were on the Valiant, or on the matter of duplication of individuals (guards on the Valiant)...

[Darwin]

Here's a question:

The Valiant went back in time to just before the Paradox machine went off, right? But we know there were Toclafane there before it went off. So what happens to them?

I wont even touch the matter of the death of all the important people who were on the Valiant, or on the matter of duplication of individuals (guards on the Valiant)...

Eye of the storm. The Valiant wasn't affected by the time reversal in the same way as everything else. The few Toclafane that were on the earth when the Paradox machine went off were on that ship.

[Straha]

Here's a question:

The Valiant went back in time to just before the Paradox machine went off, right? But we know there were Toclafane there before it went off. So what happens to them?

I wont even touch the matter of the death of all the important people who were on the Valiant, or on the matter of duplication of individuals (guards on the Valiant)...

Ghetto Edit: And what about the Toclafane that were on the Ship when the Reset Button was pushed?

[Darwin]

Ghetto Edit: And what about the Toclafane that were on the Ship when the Reset Button was pushed?

Were there any on the ship during the reset? I don't recall seeing any. The Master had it pretty thinly populated.

[Straha]

Here's a question:

The Valiant went back in time to just before the Paradox machine went off, right? But we know there were Toclafane there before it went off. So what happens to them?

I wont even touch the matter of the death of all the important people who were on the Valiant, or on the matter of duplication of individuals (guards on the Valiant)...

Eye of the storm. The Valiant wasn't affected by the time reversal in the same way as everything else. The few Toclafane that were on the earth when the Paradox machine went off were on that ship.

That works, though IIRC we saw more than two meet with the Master before but only two were on the Ship with the Master when it went through...

Were there any on the ship during the reset? I don't recall seeing any. The Master had it pretty thinly populated.

There were at least the three outside the TARDIS when Jack was going for it, and there was a whole swarm right outside, if not on, the Ship before the Paradox Machine was destroyed. (Remember: "Defend the Paradox, Defend the Paradox!")

[El Moose Monstero]

Thinking about the last 2 mins of the episode and the Christmas special, I'm wondering whether they're going to blame some sort of residual paradox effect to allow the doctor to cross his previous timeline - maybe get Christopher Ecclestone back in for a one off or something, negating the need to set up a new companion straight away.

[Stark]

Imagine what Jack did to get past the three Toclafane - who were using 'kill' shots, not disintegrator shots, and thus could put Jack down trivially - in a few seconds to save the world. He's immortal, but he can be killed and he's got time pressure.

No really. The writers didn't bother.

[Straha]

Imagine what Jack did to get past the three Toclafane - who were using 'kill' shots, not disintegrator shots, and thus could put Jack down trivially - in a few seconds to save the world. He's immortal, but he can be killed and he's got time pressure.

No really. The writers didn't bother.

That's the impression I got. By the end they'd really written themselves into such a corner they couldn't figure a way out, and so they waved their hands and *poof* by act of the Blue Glowing Doctor God to whom All Pray (lost lover of the Yellow Glowing Goddess of Thunder Rose) there was an ending. And, in all fairness, it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

Another question: Why the hell did Martha get herself captured? She risked herself unnecessarily just so she could gloat to the Master?

[2000AD]

Sadly, we're talking about DRAMA, and after the utterly retarded behaviour of the Master's troops, having them simply change sides with no explanation is weak - particularly galling is the clear comradeire between Jack and the guard guy, and their absolutely INSTANT 'die to save the world I was just butchering' about-face. Room for some good drama there, but I guess they wasted too much screentime on irrelevant 'drums' silliness that went nowhere and did nothing.

Yeah, it's like that network of satelites the Master had brainwashing people had been switched off or even taken over by someone opposing him ..... oh wait.

Another question: Why the hell did Martha get herself captured? She risked herself unnecessarily just so she could gloat to the Master?

I'm guessing to lull him into a false sense of security. He thought he'd destroyed her means of fighting back (the gun) and captured her, but in actual fact she'd already finished her mission and set the wheels in motion.