Dr. Who Ep. 2913: Last Of The Time Lords [Spoilers]

[Crazedwraith]

Still waiting for your 'why Martha sucks' rant Stark. Go on. You know you want to.

Not 'sucks', per se, just 'dramatically worthless'. I mean, she followed him round for a bit, then left. Huzzah? Even the Doctor was 'kk bai'. Unlike Rose, who was an inseperable part of the first two seasons, I feel Martha could be replaced by 'generic companion' and the third season would be exactly the same, but with less faux medical dialogue.

And Rose wasn't a genric companion? Other than when she screwed things up herself as in Father's Day she just followed the Doctor around. Until she went all DEM of course. (I'm wondering if that all came about due to the need to regenerate Eccleston)

The main thing that annoy me about Martha is the whole Unrequited love thing she has with the Doctor. She was far more awesome when she was giving him shit at the end of "Smith and Jones."

[Stark]

Yeah, it's like that network of satelites the Master had brainwashing people had been switched off or even taken over by someone opposing him ..... oh wait.

Can I have a quote? I'd love to add 'brainwash people to support him' to the list of awesome features. And that's clearly why they were all buddy-buddy and self-sacrificial: BRAINWASHING. Like I ALREADY SAID, I have no problem with the side-changing at all: simply that it goes from 'mindless slaves' to 'Captain Jack's best buddy hero guard' in an instant, and that's weak.

And Rose wasn't a genric companion? Other than when she screwed things up herself as in Father's Day she just followed the Doctor around. Until she went all DEM of course. (I'm wondering if that all came about due to the need to regenerate Eccleston)

The main thing that annoy me about Martha is the whole Unrequited love thing she has with the Doctor. She was far more awesome when she was giving him shit at the end of "Smith and Jones."

I'm sorry, I really can't see where you're coming from. Rose was an inseperable part of the drama and the arcs for two years, and the Doctor/Rose interplay was a central theme. Martha just had 'I'm a doctor lol' and the 'unrequited love' thing you mention, which was both weak AND utterly lame - turns out girls just cream their jeans over the Doctor for no reason at all!

I think Orange mentioned this earlier, but the arc stuff was far more obvious and in-your-face this season. I think this is bad - whole episodes basically exist to foreshadow elements of the finale, and the rest of those episodes suffer. Lazarus Experiment was throwaway nonsense, but it was necessary for the finale. Same with Gridlock and all the others that were weak - only a few like Human Nature were able to be good as WELL as bashing you in the face with foreshadowing. I think 'make good ep and insert silly references after' was probably better.

[Hillary]

Well - rather enjoyed that. Plotholes you could drive a flying aircraft carrier through but Doctor Who was ever thus. Loved the tiny Tennant creature with the big eyes. Loved the manic Master. Loved the Utopia humans in the deathglobes. Loved the Ming ring thing. Really loved that Jack is the Face of Boe.

Hated the resolution - stupid chanting, floating Doctor, blowing up the Paradox machine with a gun but you can't have it all.

Still the best Sci Fi series on TV for my money.

Roll on Kylie and the Titanic.

[GuppyShark]

Oh, come on, like the answer to "Why does the guard suddenly help Jack" isn't obvious?!

Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.

[2000AD]

Yeah, it's like that network of satelites the Master had brainwashing people had been switched off or even taken over by someone opposing him ..... oh wait.

Can I have a quote? I'd love to add 'brainwash people to support him' to the list of awesome features. And that's clearly why they were all buddy-buddy and self-sacrificial: BRAINWASHING.

Anyone got the episodes on tape to provide the exact words?
IIRC in Sounds of Drums there was that nice scene of the trio sitting around the garbage can fire where the Doctor goes "Aha!" and then launches into the explanation of how the Archangel network is telepathically making people trust Saxon.
Then there's the dialogue in Last of the Time Lords when Martha meets the lady professor and she tells them it's the Archangel network that is keeping most people from rebelling against The Master.

Like I ALREADY SAID, I have no problem with the side-changing at all: simply that it goes from 'mindless slaves' to 'Captain Jack's best buddy hero guard' in an instant, and that's weak.

Nice of you to change your argument. First you say it's that there's no explanation that's weak:

Sadly, we're talking about DRAMA, and after the utterly retarded behaviour of the Master's troops, having them simply change sides with no explanation is weak

Then when someone gives an explanation it's still weak.
Or is it only weak because you seemed to be paying hardly any attention to the episodes, hence missing the big scenes explaining why the Archangel network is a big plot point?

[Crazedwraith]

More of "The Sound Of Drums" question but how the Hell did Saxon become Prime Minister anyway? After all its not a position we elect directly like say POTUS. Did he start is own party or something? But if he got a majority with them why did he have a cabinet full of traitors?

[The Guid]

My guess is he started his own party which then skyrocketed in the polls leading to mass defections from other parties.

[Prozac the Robert]

I'd guess he probably stood and won a seat as an independent (possibly at a by-election, possibly triggered by killing off an MP), got loads of insanely good coverage in the press, and then attracted loads of MPs from other parties to form some sort of government with him at the head. He wouldn't necessarily have to have his own party, the requirement is just to be "someone who can command the confidence of the House of Commons." If neither of the other party leaders could do so, he could perhaps put himself forward. All a bit far-fetched normally, but he did have a network of mind control satellites.

[Lost Soal]

He was a part of Harriet Jones party, how else could he be defense minister.

[Netko]

So the big Torchwood particle-beam-of-the-week cannon was probably his initiative? Cool unintentional retcon.

[Crazedwraith]

So the big Torchwood particle-beam-of-the-week cannon was probably his initiative? Cool unintentional retcon.

Probably not. He arrived after the Chrismas Invasion.

[Dartzap]

Beeb

Kylie stars in festive Doctor Who
Pop star Kylie Minogue is to have "a major lead role" in this year's Christmas special of Doctor Who.

The star will join David Tennant for Voyage of the Damned, an hour-long show following on from the current series, which ended in the UK on Saturday.

"This will be the most ambitious and best Christmas episode yet," promised executive producer Russell T Davies, who has also written the script.

Filming is scheduled to begin in Cardiff later this month.

'Delighted and excited'

There had been rumours for several weeks that Minogue, who halted her Showgirl world tour for 18 months when she was diagnosed with breast cancer, would appear in the show.

And Davies said he was "delighted and excited" to confirm the 39-year-old's participation.

Minogue, whose debut single I Should Be So Lucky topped the charts in 1988, is currently working on her 10th studio album.

Last year's Christmas special of Doctor Who - The Runaway Bride - starred comedian Catherine Tate alongside Tennant.

She played a woman who was upset at being transported into space as she walked down the aisle on her wedding day.

The episode, broadcast on BBC One on Christmas Day, attracted an audience of 9.4 million.

That's one horrible rumour proved true

[His Divine Shadow]

Is that horrible? It's hilarious. Tennant and Kylie Minoque sounds like a wonderfull match

[Lord Pounder]

The makers of Dr Who are really going out of their way to appeal to the gay demographics. Sweet.

[Stark]

Anyone got the episodes on tape to provide the exact words?
IIRC in Sounds of Drums there was that nice scene of the trio sitting around the garbage can fire where the Doctor goes "Aha!" and then launches into the explanation of how the Archangel network is telepathically making people trust Saxon.
Then there's the dialogue in Last of the Time Lords when Martha meets the lady professor and she tells them it's the Archangel network that is keeping most people from rebelling against The Master.

Sigh. Thanks for doing an Orange and explaining things I already know. Yes, he used the Archangel network to hide himself and gain political power. While it seems obvious he also used it to get his army of mindless, humanity-destroying goons, this fact isn't my problem. I thought it was clear I was saying 'do you have a quote the Doctor used the network to brainwash the Master's soldiers', since I don't recall any mention of Archangel after Martha saw Professor Traitor. I was reeling under the impact of suck during the climax and I am never watching this episode again, so a quote would have been nice.

Nice of you to change your argument. First you say it's that there's no explanation that's weak:

Sadly, we're talking about DRAMA, and after the utterly retarded behaviour of the Master's troops, having them simply change sides with no explanation is weak

Then when someone gives an explanation it's still weak.
Or is it only weak because you seemed to be paying hardly any attention to the episodes, hence missing the big scenes explaining why the Archangel network is a big plot point?

Grow up. You're not the only person I'm talking to in this thread, and I'm not bothered by the guards changing sides (as mad clear in my reply to Orange, and the quote you just provided). In case you missed it the first four times, having them change from mindless idiots to Jack's best buddies fighting side-by-side to save the world in half a second was *weak* *dramatically*. This isn't even a major flaw in the episode - simply an incongruous detail, given the Doctor's hilarious plan and his fake escape attempts. Just like Jack magically being inside the TARDIS now, it's simply weak - oh, now they're not only not-evil world-destroyers, they're totally trustworthy heroes of the human race who are fully briefed! Nothing lame there at all. I hear it was a tiny, tiny theme that humans aren't decadent wankers and are actually self-actualising awesome dudes.

Didn't anyone else think it was stupid at the end of SoD that while most people were only slightly aware of Archangel's influence - there are those who didn't vote for Saxon, apparently - the UNIT goons were so utterly brainwashed they prevented people stopping the Master and continued to obey him when it was clear he wasn't Saxon, wasn't human, and just destroyed the world? I mean, he must have an awesome recruiter!

[DocHorror]

Didn't anyone else think it was stupid at the end of SoD that while most people were only slightly aware of Archangel's influence - there are those who didn't vote for Saxon, apparently - the UNIT goons were so utterly brainwashed they prevented people stopping the Master and continued to obey him when it was clear he wasn't Saxon, wasn't human, and just destroyed the world? I mean, he must have an awesome recruiter!

Yeah, I did. But, *sigh* sometimes you do have accept certain things within a story. You could argue that the Master had UNIT in his pocket ever since he designed the Valinat.

It was jarring to see Mrs Master & the guards chanting 'Doctor' at the end as well. I suppose you could say it was the Doctors breaking of the psy-network that restored them to sanity. As to why the Doctor waited so long for such a convoluted plan, maybe he knew it'd take him a while to adapt & adjust to the Archangl network.

[Stark]

Yeah, which is why I don't have a real problem with it - after all, time travel, paradox machines, etc. There are any number of ways it makes sense internally (archangel, Saint Doctor, etc).

However, as much as posters on SDN often don't seem to understand this, it's not so much WHAT happens as HOW it happens. Rose, God of Thunder was hell, hell weak, but it was dramatically awesome. Girl in the Fireplace was contrived, throwaway silliness, but it was dramatically awesome. Just having unexplained things that don't really make sense and ignoring problems etc is more of a problem than reusing props or bad makeup, as it damages the drama and makes the whole thing seems contrived AND unsatisfying.

PS, all those who pray for the Doctor will be forgiven their sins. Oh wait, did I say that out loud? It was supposed to be subtly hidden inside the episode!

[Stark]

GHETTO - and the 'Master controls UNIT lol' thing was something that had plenty of scope for awesome, but we got nothing. The goons didn't even have UNIT flashes, even though they're the crew of the UNIT flying carrier.

[DocHorror]

Yeah, which is why I don't have a real problem with it - after all, time travel, paradox machines, etc. There are any number of ways it makes sense internally (archangel, Saint Doctor, etc).

However, as much as posters on SDN often don't seem to understand this, it's not so much WHAT happens as HOW it happens. Rose, God of Thunder was hell, hell weak, but it was dramatically awesome. Girl in the Fireplace was contrived, throwaway silliness, but it was dramatically awesome. Just having unexplained things that don't really make sense and ignoring problems etc is more of a problem than reusing props or bad makeup, as it damages the drama and makes the whole thing seems contrived AND unsatisfying.

PS, all those who pray for the Doctor will be forgiven their sins. Oh wait, did I say that out loud? It was supposed to be subtly hidden inside the episode!

Yeah, the Drums came from nowhere & went nowhere. We didn't even get any clue as to what it was. Was it the Time Vortex? the Black Guardian or Death taking the Master as her Champion?

What was the point of the Doctor stopping that Master from killing Earth cos it'd kill himself. Then the Master choosing to die to spite the doctor. As much as i loathed the ming scene at least it kept the character consistent.

Though it is still a vexing scene (especially as it was only added as a 'get out of jail' card for a future production tram to bring back the Master. As if it was needed. He was visably vapourised 'Planet of Fire' yet can back in the 'Mark of the Rani' only to boast of his indestrucability.)

[2000AD]

Sigh. Thanks for doing an Orange and explaining things I already know. Yes, he used the Archangel network to hide himself and gain political power. While it seems obvious he also used it to get his army of mindless, humanity-destroying goons, this fact isn't my problem. I thought it was clear I was saying 'do you have a quote the Doctor used the network to brainwash the Master's soldiers', since I don't recall any mention of Archangel after Martha saw Professor Traitor. I was reeling under the impact of suck during the climax and I am never watching this episode again, so a quote would have been nice.

Sorry, i assumed you were looking for quotes of the Master brainwashing people.
As for direct quotes of the Doctor using the satelites to brainwash people I don't think there are any, I was merely filling in the gap in the following chain of events:
1) Master uses satelite network to make most people compliant to him.
2) Doctor says he's taken over said satelite network.
3) ???
4) People who previously were loyal to The Master are now following the orders of The Doctor and his companion.

Hardly a massive leap in logic is it?
And again if you want the specific quote of the Doctor saying he's tapped into the network then find someone with the episode on tape, it is in there.

Grow up. You're not the only person I'm talking to in this thread, and I'm not bothered by the guards changing sides (as made clear in my reply to Orange, and the quote you just provided). In case you missed it the first four times, having them change from mindless idiots to Jack's best buddies fighting side-by-side to save the world in half a second was *weak* *dramatically*. This isn't even a major flaw in the episode - simply an incongruous detail, given the Doctor's hilarious plan and his fake escape attempts. Just like Jack magically being inside the TARDIS now, it's simply weak - oh, now they're not only not-evil world-destroyers, they're totally trustworthy heroes of the human race who are fully briefed! Nothing lame there at all. I hear it was a tiny, tiny theme that humans aren't decadent wankers and are actually self-actualising awesome dudes.

If the premise that the Doctor was using the satellites to influence people is acceptable then it's not incongruous.

And where did you get 'totally trustworthy heroes of the human race who are fully briefed' from? The only thing that indicated the heores trust in them is Jack's "Follow me" when he's going for the paradox machine and that's after The Doctor has done his funky stuff and made The Master cry like a baby.

Didn't anyone else think it was stupid at the end of SoD that while most people were only slightly aware of Archangel's influence - there are those who didn't vote for Saxon, apparently - the UNIT goons were so utterly brainwashed they prevented people stopping the Master and continued to obey him when it was clear he wasn't Saxon, wasn't human, and just destroyed the world? I mean, he must have an awesome recruiter!

Given that he helped them design the Valiant it would appear that The Master has some connections inside UNIT. Combine that with The Master being the Prime Minister of Britain and now being backed by floating balls of death and that's 3 reasons for them to follow him off the top of my head. That's not counting that they could well have been brainwashed by Archangel after all. These things allowed him to go from nobody to Prime Minister with established background in 18 months.

As for stopping the Doctor and his friends, let's not forget they had just been declared terrorists. Even if we don't assume the guards are loyal to Saxon (brainwashed or otherwise) stopping terrorists is still part of their job.

[Stark]

Sorry, i assumed you were looking for quotes of the Master brainwashing people.
As for direct quotes of the Doctor using the satelites to brainwash people I don't think there are any, I was merely filling in the gap in the following chain of events:
1) Master uses satelite network to make most people compliant to him.
2) Doctor says he's taken over said satelite network.
3) ???
4) People who previously were loyal to The Master are now following the orders of The Doctor and his companion.

Hardly a massive leap in logic is it?
And again if you want the specific quote of the Doctor saying he's tapped into the network then find someone with the episode on tape, it is in there.

You just don't get it, and that's sad. Stop tilting at strawmen for a little and actually read my posts. Of course there are ways it could have happened - the fact that it got no explanation at all (and again, I don't believe Archangel was mentioned after Professor Traitor) is *weak storytelling*. PS, saying 'it's in there' is not evidence - back up your claim or drop it.

If the premise that the Doctor was using the satellites to influence people is acceptable then it's not incongruous.

Yeah, magic loyalty that comes from nowhere and goes nowhere and has no explanation isn't dramatically weak at all. Are you listening? OF COURSE THERE ARE EXPLANATIONS. It's just POOR DRAMA. This is a minor point in the manifold problems of the episode, but you both can't let it go and can't even understand what I'm saying.

And where did you get 'totally trustworthy heroes of the human race who are fully briefed' from? The only thing that indicated the heores trust in them is Jack's "Follow me" when he's going for the paradox machine and that's after The Doctor has done his funky stuff and made The Master cry like a baby.

Dude, they're fighting and being slaughtered by their alien overlords to save mankind from a destruction they knew all about a year ago. If you don't think this shows either a) massive double-agentry, where the whole thing was planned for ages or b) a sudden, complete turnaround from the goose-stepping goons then ... that boggles my mind.

Given that he helped them design the Valiant it would appear that The Master has some connections inside UNIT. Combine that with The Master being the Prime Minister of Britain and now being backed by floating balls of death and that's 3 reasons for them to follow him off the top of my head. That's not counting that they could well have been brainwashed by Archangel after all. These things allowed him to go from nobody to Prime Minister with established background in 18 months.

As for stopping the Doctor and his friends, let's not forget they had just been declared terrorists. Even if we don't assume the guards are loyal to Saxon (brainwashed or otherwise) stopping terrorists is still part of their job.

Christ, it's like you're INTENTIONALLY thinking like a retard. Yes, the Doctor etc were declared terrorists - and then the Master murdered POTUS, conquered the world, and killed hundreds millions of people right in front of them. Yeah, let's cover these guys, the old guy might try something - especially those guys who came in with the President! WE'RE HELPING, WE'RE HELPING! It's shown that they're basically the only thing keeping the Master from being assassinated on a minute by minute basis - what, did they get a double dose of the kool-aid? The writers have to do this stuff themselves, you know.

I hear if a terrorist defrauded an election and once held an advisory post with the military, then you should follow them into a billion bodycount. Obviously: that's why the ep gave so much time to the soldiers as more than just goons with guns - oh wait, it didn't, they were mindless idiots under the command of Irrelevant Character Ten and then suddenly became heroes.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I frankly don't see how anyone can dispute the brainwashing angle when Archangel essentially controlled 98-99% of the population to the extent that no one knew what Saxon really stood for, yet he got voted in and then went about turning Earth into the forward base for a universal invasion. There were dissenters, yes, but they were obviously minor compared to the vast numbers working under pain of death if they didn't. The Toclafane proved they could kill over 600 million with impunity on the first day, so no one was going to immediately go against The Master.

They could have done with a four parter though, showing more of the year under occupation and The Master controlling UNIT and various shots of Martha on her travels.

[Stark]

Dude, they could have instantly shot the Master, or simply left. You know, anything that isn't 'slaughter piles of dudes to help him destroy mankind (including them). Then again, their inablility to shoot Useless Rebel Guy before the Master himself shows that perhaps they're either pretty hopeless of not hugely loyal, just incapable of acting directly against the Master. In any case, vast piles of useless exposition vs zero exposition for plot critical events = fail at writing.

The dissenters really show that Archangel isn't all that great: it certainly doesn't work on the Doctor anymore, for instance, whereas before it affected him at least slight (which suggests it had many roles that perhaps weren't related). In any case, this simply shows that it's more complex than 'lolz brainwash tem all' and skipping it does nothing but give us an awesome 'wtf?' moment where the Evil Stormtroopers become Heroes of the Revolution in a single cut, with the Doctor pretty much 100% focussed on the Master.

I'm not sure what the timeframe for their 600 million was, though - since they watched Japan get owned, clearly the tempo of slaughter couldn't have been that high. I'm curious what mods the Valiant recieved - it could apparently stop hundreds of thousands of rockets IN RUSSIA by itself! Then again, they were made from used cars.

[Darwin]

I'm not sure what the timeframe for their 600 million was, though - since they watched Japan get owned, clearly the tempo of slaughter couldn't have been that high.

You're kidding, right? 6 billion Toclafane coming out of the rift could kill 600 million people in the amount of time it takes them to disperse across the world's population centers, which by the looks of things couldn't have been more than an hour or two. They were lasering the hell out of everything.

[Lost Soal]

I'm not sure what the timeframe for their 600 million was, though - since they watched Japan get owned, clearly the tempo of slaughter couldn't have been that high.

You're kidding, right? 6 billion Toclafane coming out of the rift could kill 600 million people in the amount of time it takes them to disperse across the world's population centers, which by the looks of things couldn't have been more than an hour or two. They were lasering the hell out of everything.

Theirs also part of Martha's legend, "the only person to get out of Japan alive", meaning the destruction of Japan wasn't part of the initial attack but a later event.