Uber Constituition vs SSD

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-08 11:59pm

SirNitram wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Well, that's the funny thing about "high-end" calcs; do we consider them a generous but still meaningful estimate, or do we consider them "the most we can push the evidence to possibly mean, no matter how unreasonable?"

Because, as others have pointed out, this would imply that we should take Dodonna's quote and Solo's quote together to mean that 500 Imperial ships can unleash 1E38 J of firepower.
If you're trying to be unreasonable, you throw in the Death Star technical companion's quote(That an unshielded world hit by the beam would be vaporized) and assume 500 ships can unleash 1e42J in one second.

What page is that on?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-09 12:38am

TheDarkling wrote:Cult of the Connie puts the destroying as taking a very short time (single digit minutes at max) but theres very little support for that position.

Then they aren't taking the whole canon into context. In "Mirror Mirror", the Halkan cities which were targeted by the ISS Enterprise were out of range in LESS than 2 minutes. Sulu needed to course correct to regain the lock, or just wait for the next city to come under their guns.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 11:02am

TheDarkling wrote:I suppose you can revise it down if you have reasno to my saying Kirk was lying or that destroy simply means cause some damage on some of the surface but htat wouldn't be taking the high ends that justify the uber connie.

Kirk made a vague statement about "destroying" the planet. Scotty later came on the scene with information that was more specific. You extrapolate Kirks vague statement to mean that the E-nil can accomplish BDZ level firepower even though your interpretation is directly contradicted by Scotty's more precise information (which was to devastate the major population centers).

Why do you think Kirk's vague statement is more reliable and a better source of information than Scotty's specific statement?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 11:07am

Me:

Cities only is very small scale indeed while what is said is somewhat larger (although still not on the level of a BDZ).

You:

You extrapolate Kirks vague statement to mean that the E-nil can accomplish BDZ level firepower

Spot the difference.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 11:11am

Darkling: nitpick, nitpick, nitpick small errors in someone's semantics and wording.

Me: deal with the general issue of firepower without worrying about the precise wording.

See the difference?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 11:20am

No you claimed I said it was BDZ level firepower when I didn't (in fact I explicitly stated it wasn't to stop such knee jerking, I guess next time I should put it in bigger text), I did state that it was more than just cities which everyone says about it including Scotty.

We have Kirk saying everyone will die.
We have another account that it lays waste to the surface of an entire world.
Scotty says it destroys all inhabitated surface.

Nowhere does it say only cities all Scotty says is that all the cities will be destroyed in so much amount of time, its possible that the citis would be the target of the first few volleys then a more systematic pattern would be employed - this fits all the evidence.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-09 12:07pm

Darkling, you still don't get it. If it is possible to interpret the dialogue either way (which it is), then it doesn't fucking matter what vague implications you can draw from semantic analysis of dialogue; you still have nothing.

This argument is a good example of why the "dialogue overrides visuals" people are full of shit. Do you know why nobody argues over whether Alderaan was blown up, just devastated on the surface, etc? Do you know why nobody argues over the number of survivors from the blast? Because we SAW it. It is objective, there is no dispute. The planet blew up.

A meaningful calculation must be based on an observation in the best case, and at worst, an unambiguous description of the RESULTS of an action (results and blustering are two COMPLETELY different things). Alderaan was an observation. However, when a calculation is based on one of many possible semantic interpretations of dialogue, particularly when it concerns an event which did NOT actually happen (ie- blustering before the fact rather than observation of the aftermath)i, it is NOT meaningful.

So again I ask: by "high-end calcs", do we mean "meaningful but generous calcs"? Or do we mean "numbers pasted onto bullshit?"

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 12:45pm

TheDarkling wrote:No you claimed I said it was BDZ level firepower when I didn't (in fact I explicitly stated it wasn't to stop such knee jerking, I guess next time I should put it in bigger text), I did state that it was more than just cities which everyone says about it including Scotty.

Ok, you didn't try to claim it was BDZ level firepower. That was Alyeska. I'm sorry I got you two trekkie clones confused for a moment.

However, you did say,

TheDarkling wrote:and as Kirk says "I gave my Chief Engineer the order to destroy the surface of a planet" now while that may not mean the entire surafce (despite what he says) it seems to agree that it won't be cities only.

So do you deny that you were trying to slide in the interpretation that Kirk meant every last square mile?

We have Kirk saying everyone will die.

Did he? Where?

We have another account that it lays waste to the surface of an entire world.

I take it you mean the ST:E issue where someone labeled an INTERPRETATION of canon as the canon itself.

Scotty says it destroys all inhabitated surface.

Earlier you gave a body count from Kirk

TheDarkling wrote:"start talking about hundreds of millions of people being killed (which is was the what the exact same guy described his population as being)."

If Eminiar VII is like Earth (and it must be since Kirk had no physical problems on the surface) and the planet has only a population in the "hundreds of Millions" (to use your earlier estimate) then most of the surface would be uninhabbited. Earth's current population is currently over 6 billion (an order of magnitude greater than your Eminiar VII estimate) and much of our surface is in fact UNINHABBITED.

Nowhere does it say only cities all Scotty says is that all the cities will be destroyed in so much amount of time, its possible that the citis would be the target of the first few volleys then a more systematic pattern would be employed - this fits all the evidence.

Both Kirk and Scott mention cities. (BTW, thank you for providing the Kirk quote via E1701)

James Tiberius Kirk wrote:In two hours, there won't be a single city left standing on this planet!

Whenever they get specific, they never mention rural areas yet you insist that the estimates should include the entire surface.
You can extrapolate "destroy the surface" all you want but you still have no actual evidence that they can level the entire surface of the planet, regardless of whether we consider it a BDZ equivalent.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 01:26pm

Darth Wong wrote:So again I ask: by "high-end calcs", do we mean "meaningful but generous calcs"? Or do we mean "numbers pasted onto bullshit?"

Obviously he means, "anything and everything we can squeeze out of the dialogue"

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 01:59pm

Wong:No Wong I do get it and I have said exactly what you just told me in this very thread however I think you will find that TOS didn't have many (if any) visuals to go off of, thats not the point however I was simply saying drawing the conclusion that Scotty said only cities is wrong given the quotes - thats it, I was accused of saying things I had not and saw the need to correct the person making the false claims.

Darth Servo:

Ok, you didn't try to claim it was BDZ level firepower. That was Alyeska. I'm sorry I got you two trekkie clones confused for a moment.

Was there any need for that, apart from just being a mild insult against anyone pro-trek, at least you don't hide your bias I guess.

No I did not mean every last square mile however the lowest estimate of damage is the entire inhabitated surface (scotty), everyone or near everyone (kirk and the leader of Eminiar VII) and lay waste to an entire planet (a planetary emperor with a starfleet captian as his advisor), therefore claims of city only are baseless since everynoe else pgs the damage as higher.

No I haven't used the ST:E anywhere we have a quote from a Roman emperor (who has been breifed abou what a starship can do by a SF captain) and he says kirks ship can "lay waste to the surface of an entire world").

I see no problem with assuming Eminiar VII is to a large degree uninhabitated, I never made claims otherwise.

I have no where insisted it includes the entire surafec in fact you have quoted saying that I don't here

and as Kirk says "I gave my Chief Engineer the order to destroy the surface of a planet" now while that may not mean the entire surafce (despite what he says) it seems to agree that it won't be cities only.

this is the second time you have said I have said something when in fact I have said the exact opposite, now you copied what I said so I can't understand how you managed not to read it prehaps you were simply basing your argument on your notions about "trekkie clones" if so I would suggest you read an individuals reasoning first and not simply make up your own version of it based on what you think they would say given the past behaviour of "their side".

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 02:57pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Ok, you didn't try to claim it was BDZ level firepower. That was Alyeska. I'm sorry I got you two trekkie clones confused for a moment.
Was there any need for that, apart from just being a mild insult against anyone pro-trek, at least you don't hide your bias I guess.

My bias has nothing to do with the discussion.

No I did not mean every last square mile however the lowest estimate of damage is the entire inhabitated surface (scotty).

No, thats the HIGHEST estimate.

everyone or near everyone (kirk and the leader of Eminiar VII)

Whats the exact dialogue?

and lay waste to an entire planet (a planetary emperor with a starfleet captian as his advisor), therefore claims of city only are baseless since everynoe else pgs the damage as higher.

...we have a quote from a Roman emperor (who has been breifed abou what a starship can do by a SF captain) and he says kirks ship can "lay waste to the surface of an entire world").

Ahhhh. Bread and Circuses. He also thought that 100 men armed with phasers would be able to conquor the entire planet.

That Emperor was an idiot. Especially since we know from Omega Glory that primitives armed with nothing but spears and clubs could defeat a few men with phasers given a 1000:1 numerical advantage. Do you really think the Roman Empire with 1950-60s technology wouldn't do better than stick wielding natives?

The Roman Emperor had never seen what Fed Tech could actually do. He was merely SPECULATING. Get it yet?

This is why the Trek side gets treated so poorly. You guys repeatedly try to present CONJECTURE, EXTRAPOLATION of dialogue and SPECULATION as if it was all reliable evidence. And you wonder why we think your'e not that bright.

I see no problem with assuming Eminiar VII is to a large degree uninhabitated, I never made claims otherwise.

I have no where insisted it includes the entire surafec in fact you have quoted saying that I don't here

Yes you have, in this very post with all that nonsense about the Roman Emperor/entire world.

and as Kirk says "I gave my Chief Engineer the order to destroy the surface of a planet" now while that may not mean the entire surafce (despite what he says) it seems to agree that it won't be cities only.
this is the second time you have said I have said something when in fact I have said the exact opposite, now you copied what I said so I can't understand how you managed not to read it prehaps you were simply basing your argument on your notions about "trekkie clones" if so I would suggest you read an individuals reasoning first and not simply make up your own version of it based on what you think they would say given the past behaviour of "their side".

Oh, so your little comment in parenthesis, "despite what he says" was to be completely ignored?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 03:30pm

No the highest estimate would be a complete BDZ not the destroying of the inhabitated surface, I would have thought that was obvious.
No one states less than the inhabitated surface so why assume less than that? because you want to is the answer (not that it really matters because it doesn't exactly display great firepower).

Kirk:All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction.
You heard me give general order 24.
In two hours,the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7.
Anan 7:You wouldn't do this.Hundreds of millions of people.
Kirk:I didn't start it, Councilman...but I'm liable to finish it.

Now as I have already said you could assume Kirk is bluffing and that the Emperor is way off base (trying to reduce the amount evidence) but we still have Scotties statement (inhabitated surface) now unless you just want to ignore that to (Scotty was lying aswell?) then thats the amount done - yu can just ignore it all or re-interpret it based no other evidence (as I have said earlier) however taken in isolation thats where it stands.

The Emperor had been told what the Enterprise (well not specifically but what a starship could do) could do and this fits in with what Scotty and Kirk say.
You also seem to dismiss the fact that its obvious the Enterprise could "lay waste to the surface of a world" given enough time since it would only require nuclear level weapony.

and you think I'm not to bright because I don't recognise your brilliance and bow before it.

I said "dispite what he says" however I made my meaning clear its not my fault you choose to ignore what I have said and then invent your own lies about it, I was stating that he could be embelshing abit so we take another look at what he said in context with what Scotty said.

I can't believe we are having a converstain based upn your "mis-reading" of what I have said in this thread, but any excuse to take a jab eh?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-09 03:38pm

Of course, we could just clear out the blustering and we find ourselves with the cities quote. Which, if the planet is so underpopulated that only a few hundred million live there, the torpedo load will be able to accomplish if they're mid-Kiloton range. But that would ruin the attempts to jack up the firepower.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 03:47pm

SirNitram: I have already stated that the firepower it gives isn't that great, I wasn't arguing that (in fact I'm not arguing anything just defending myself from misrepresentation).

I suppose you could argue the entire imnhabitated surface area is actually the cities if yuo wanted although theres little justification for such a claim (if the even is taken in isolation or even just within TOS to an extent).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-09 04:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:I suppose you could argue the entire imnhabitated surface area is actually the cities if yuo wanted although theres little justification for such a claim (if the even is taken in isolation or even just within TOS to an extent).

You're still missing the point, which is that blustering before the fact (in a deliberate attempt to intimidate) is a shitty source of information. To treat it in a theological literalist manner as you do is simply unreasonable.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 04:35pm

No I see what you are saying your saying base nothing off i because it could just be bluster, you can take that stance especially if any other evidence (or equal of better quality) is available however without that I don't see any great reason to simply put it down to bluster (especially since there is an order which Scotty and kirk seem to agree on what it involves).

That being said trying to come up with anything other than huge ballparks off of it is differcult.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the matter, you can take VFX and little else while others don't trust VFX and try to go off of what characters say (although even they prefer more cast iron speech), I prefer to go for a balanced approach but thats personal preference.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-09 04:45pm

A "balance" between the subjective and objective implies that both carry some validity. They don't. Dialogue which is ambiguous and which does not even describe an action but rather, a threat of action designed to intimidate, is worth precisely dick. If we used your method, the corbomite weapon would have been interpreted as real until Kirk fessed up.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 05:02pm

Alright, Darkling. To prevent further "misrepresentation" please describe how you define "inhabitted surface" and be PRECISE. Remember, vague statements will only lead to more "misrepresentation."

TheDarkling wrote:No the highest estimate would be a complete BDZ not the destroying of the inhabitated surface, I would have thought that was obvious.

No, a Connie doing a BDZ is not an estimate; its the most grotesque ultra inflated exaggeration ever conceived.

No one states less than the inhabitated surface so why assume less than that? because you want to is the answer (not that it really matters because it doesn't exactly display great firepower).

Wrong, Scotty specifically defines "inhabited surface" as "all cities and installations" Now we just need to define "cities and installations".

Kirk:All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction.
You heard me give general order 24.
In two hours,the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7.
Anan 7:You wouldn't do this.Hundreds of millions of people.
Kirk:I didn't start it, Councilman...but I'm liable to finish it.

Oh yeah, real solid numbers there. No mention at all that it would kill "nearly everyone" on Eminiar 7. The planet could have a population of ~6-7 hundred million and the Enterprise could kill ~3 hundred million and it would still fit with the dialogue.

Now as I have already said you could assume Kirk is bluffing

I don't need to.

and that the Emperor is way off base(trying to reduce the amount evidence)

He WAS way off base. He thought that 100 fed troops could conquor the "entire planet" with ease yet that notion was quite convincingly proven WRONG in Omega Glory. It is not inconceivable that he was just as wrong with his Starship firepower estimates. He had obviously fallen for the idea that "superior tech" mean "near-invincible" (in other words, he's a Trekkie).

but we still have Scotties statement (inhabitated surface)

Which Scotty specifically defined as "cities and installations"

now unless you just want to ignore that to (Scotty was lying aswell?) then thats the amount done - yu can just ignore it all or re-interpret it based no other evidence (as I have said earlier) however taken in isolation thats where it stands.

I haven't ignored anything. Dialogue is ALWAYS subject to interpretation. You on the other hand ignore some completely pitiful examples of Connie firepower (such as several seconds of continuous firing to destroy Lazarus' tiny one-man pod in The Alternative Factor or 100 megatons out stripping the E-nil's weapons in The Doomsday Machine.

The Emperor had been told what the Enterprise (well not specifically but what a starship could do) could do and this fits in with what Scotty and Kirk say.

He'd also been told what hand phasers could do and he did some extrapolation. His extrapolation has been proven WRONG. Being told about something is NOT anywhere near as reliable as an actual demonstration, as this particular case proves.
Besides, his statement (even if he is right) could just as easily be interpreted to mean the same thing as what I've said the statements from A Taste of Armageddon mean. It all comes back to exactly how you respond to my first question in this post.

You also seem to dismiss the fact that its obvious the Enterprise could "lay waste to the surface of a world" given enough time since it would only require nuclear level weapony.

And given that this still can just as easily be interpreted to mean "cities and installations" you have no case.

and you think I'm not to bright because I don't recognise your brilliance and bow before it.

No, I think you're not bright because as I said before, you try and present Extrapolation, Speculation and Conjecture as reliable evidence. Can't you read?

I said "dispite what he says" however I made my meaning clear its not my fault you choose to ignore what I have said and then invent your own lies about it, I was stating that he could be embelshing abit so we take another look at what he said in context with what Scotty said.

If you would care to explicitly define what you consider "entire inhabited surface" to mean, we might be able to avoid such "misrepresentations" in the future.

I can't believe we are having a converstain based upn your "mis-reading" of what I have said in this thread, but any excuse to take a jab eh?

Actually, any excuse to increas my post count.

Now excuse me while I go and celebrate my 500th post. Whoo-hoo. Jedi Knight at last!!!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 05:10pm

If you want to argue that general order 24 is the standard code word for"pretend we can trash a planet" then go ahead, you could also say that Scotty was talking it up and that GO 24 simply means do abit of damage to the cities etc but this is simply am attempt to lower the firepower which is backed up by others (including the Emperor), I also don't really see the problem because to do what Scotty said wouldn't require that much firepower and certainly no more than that which the Enterprise has already displayed - on its own you are right it could go either way but when backed up by other evidence it indicates that General Order 24 can be what Scotty describes thus I see no reason to not take him at his word.

If Kirk had said (well actually he did) that the Enterprise would destroy the planet death star style then its obvious that he is trash talking so to speak (because nothing backs up tat level of firepower).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 05:16pm

Darth Servo:As I have already said you can take it how you will but since what is described by Scotty is within the abilities of the connie I see no reason to not take him at his word.

I did start answering you post but when I saw another snipe at trekies I just decided not to bother, congrats on your new rank and go celebrate your "victory".

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-09 05:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:Darth Servo:As I have already said you can take it how you will but since what is described by Scotty is within the abilities of the connie I see no reason to not take him at his word.

I did start answering you post but when I saw another snipe at trekies I just decided not to bother, congrats on your new rank and go celebrate your "victory".

Aw, poor Darkling. An insult and he can throw the post out. Who does that sound like..

Again. Scotty clarifies his statement later. Why do you ignore this?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-09 05:28pm

No every single one of his posts contained snide attacks and little else (most just opinion), I conceded the debate so lets just leave it at that.

One last thing though, what do you mean Scotty clarifies later?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-09 05:40pm

SirNitram wrote:
If you're trying to be unreasonable, you throw in the Death Star technical companion's quote(That an unshielded world hit by the beam would be vaporized) and assume 500 ships can unleash 1e42J in one second.

[/quote]

What page is this information on?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-09 11:49pm

TheDarkling wrote:No I see what you are saying your saying base nothing off i because it could just be bluster, you can take that stance especially if any other evidence (or equal of better quality) is available however without that I don't see any great reason to simply put it down to bluster

TOS: "Mirror Mirror"

KIRK: "We will level your planet and take what we want. That is destruction"

How are they going to "take what they want" if Kirk levels the planet? Unless...Kirk is, once again, blustering. And no, it doesn't just mean dilithium crystals. Kirk tells Spock the Halkans have more to offer than the crystals.

Another thing. They were targeting the CITIES ONLY. When one city rotated away from the phaser lock, they targeted another.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-10 01:10pm

TheDarkling wrote:Darth Servo:As I have already said you can take it how you will but since what is described by Scotty is within the abilities of the connie I see no reason to not take him at his word.

Beautiful example of circular logic: we know GO 24 destroys the entire population because thats within the abilities of the Connie. And the evidence for the Connie's population destroying abilities is....GO 24.

I did start answering you post but when I saw another snipe at trekies I just decided not to bother, congrats on your new rank and go celebrate your "victory".

No every single one of his posts contained snide attacks and little else (most just opinion), I conceded the debate so lets just leave it at that.

I went back through my posts in this thread (11 total including this one) and about half of them (6) contained what might be considered an insult, one of which was a direct response to your own "insult".

OK I invite everyone to look through my most recent posts in this thread where my insults occured. Did I go too far? If so, I will humbly apologise to Darkling.

As for my posts containing "most just opinions" I ask Darkling:

So when you insisted that GO 24, the offhand comments by the Roman Emperor, etc. all meant that the Connie could kill essentially 100 percent of a planetary population numbering "hundreds of millions" that was not an opinion, inspite of all the possible alternate interpretations provided by myself and others in this thread?