Dr. Who Ep. 2913: Last Of The Time Lords [Spoilers]

[Darwin]

Theirs also part of Martha's legend, "the only person to get out of Japan alive", meaning the destruction of Japan wasn't part of the initial attack but a later event.

Yeah, that's a given. I expect when the Master demanded Japan bow down to him, they gave him the collective finger.

[Stark]

Theirs also part of Martha's legend, "the only person to get out of Japan alive", meaning the destruction of Japan wasn't part of the initial attack but a later event.

Thank you. I'm glad some others pay attention to this sort of thing. For all the talk of Archangel being the last word in mental control, it clearly isn't, and Japan at least was made an example of after the initial invasion. I think it's ironic that Darwin now says it's 'a given', when he openly mocked my suggestion that the slaughter was spread over time.

I was thinking that since people don't seem to understand what I think was 'weak' about the instant side-changing with no explanation, let's use another example. Imagine Rose God of Thunder showed up in PotW, but all scenes leading to it after the Doctor's message have been removed. Everything has still be foreshadowed: we know about the heart of the TARDIS, we know about Bad Wolf, we know about the telepathy and Rose was last seen in the TARDIS, intent on returning to save the Doctor. We can join the dots in-universe and pretty much know what happened without having to be shown.

Except without those scenes, it's rubbish. It's even MORE contrived, it's stupid, it's out of nowhere, and to complete the example the airtime would have to be filled with nonsense about something irrelevant and a sledgehammer loaded with the Prophet of the LORD preaching Hope to defeat the Message Of Hate spread by the Devil to Defeat Him at His Moment of Triumph. We lose all the drama, the event no longer has a powerful context or relevance, and it weakens the entire episode even further. This is how something can be totally understandable, but also utterly worthless and stupid from a dramatic point of view.

[Zac Naloen]

Theirs also part of Martha's legend, "the only person to get out of Japan alive", meaning the destruction of Japan wasn't part of the initial attack but a later event.

Thank you. I'm glad some others pay attention to this sort of thing. For all the talk of Archangel being the last word in mental control, it clearly isn't, and Japan at least was made an example of after the initial invasion. I think it's ironic that Darwin now says it's 'a given', when he openly mocked my suggestion that the slaughter was spread over time.

I was thinking that since people don't seem to understand what I think was 'weak' about the instant side-changing with no explanation, let's use another example. Imagine Rose God of Thunder showed up in PotW, but all scenes leading to it after the Doctor's message have been removed. Everything has still be foreshadowed: we know about the heart of the TARDIS, we know about Bad Wolf, we know about the telepathy and Rose was last seen in the TARDIS, intent on returning to save the Doctor. We can join the dots in-universe and pretty much know what happened without having to be shown.

Except without those scenes, it's rubbish. It's even MORE contrived, it's stupid, it's out of nowhere, and to complete the example the airtime would have to be filled with nonsense about something irrelevant and a sledgehammer loaded with the Prophet of the LORD preaching Hope to defeat the Message Of Hate spread by the Devil to Defeat Him at His Moment of Triumph. We lose all the drama, the event no longer has a powerful context or relevance, and it weakens the entire episode even further. This is how something can be totally understandable, but also utterly worthless and stupid from a dramatic point of view.

err... have you forgotten the line "Wipe out one tenth of the population"

anything after that would have been done over a period of time. The initial slaughter would have been over very quickly.

[Stark]

Okay, thanks for quoting a huge post to comment on the first part. That's neat.

And I know Orange-disease is going around right now, but I was JUST TALKING about people paying attention. OF COURSE I remember the 'decimate' discussion. I SPECIFICALLY REFERRED to Darwin's incredulous 'You're kidding, right' statement in the post you just quoted. I made it clear originally that I believe after the original attack (which is unverifiable at 10%, btw) there were clearly later strikes.

Frankly, I don't really know what your point is. Try actually quoting the relevant part so I don't have to guess - it looks like you're trying to suggest I'm saying the exact opposite of what I just said.

[Zac Naloen]

Okay, thanks for quoting a huge post to comment on the first part. That's neat.

And I know Orange-disease is going around right now, but I was JUST TALKING about people paying attention. OF COURSE I remember the 'decimate' discussion. I SPECIFICALLY REFERRED to Darwin's incredulous 'You're kidding, right' statement in the post you just quoted. I made it clear originally that I believe after the original attack (which is unverifiable at 10%, btw) there were clearly later strikes.

Frankly, I don't really know what your point is. Try actually quoting the relevant part so I don't have to guess - it looks like you're trying to suggest I'm saying the exact opposite of what I just said.

I think everyone is just getting confused, it seems . From what i've read it looked like you were disputing the speed of the original decimation, clearly that is not the case. You used the "last out of japan line" as if it disputes the speed at which they decimated the 10th of the population. It doesn't, it just shows that he took out everything else as and when he needed to after his original show of force.

[Stark]

Oh yeah, the initial attack was clearly pretty hardcore and 6 billion flying death balls aren't going to have any real problems killing an arbitrary number of people. It actually raises some questions about resistance and Toclafane density, really - I wonder where 99% of them were most of the time? Just milling about at random points on Earth? You'd think the Master wouldn't need human guards with far more useful, loyal and invincible Toclafane henchmen in far larger numbers.

I don't think anyone has argued that the Master killed piles of people at first and then just ruled by fear: it's pretty strongly suggested that the Master spent some time putting down resistance etc.

[The Guid]

It may well be he needed the human guards because the second he took his eye off a Toclafane it would blast the shit out of someone "because it's fun". In that respect the guards could become like the Conductor in Day of the Daleks.

He may have therefore kept most of the Toclafane that he wasn't using scouring the outside areas back through the rift. Just a theory.

[2000AD]

You just don't get it, and that's sad. Stop tilting at strawmen for a little and actually read my posts. Of course there are ways it could have happened - the fact that it got no explanation at all (and again, I don't believe Archangel was mentioned after Professor Traitor) is *weak storytelling*. PS, saying 'it's in there' is not evidence - back up your claim or drop it.

As I've said I don't have the ep on tape, hence the numerous requests from me for someone with it to get the quotes. I couldn't find the scene on Youtube (Closest I got was as soon as The Doctor starts glowing) will Wikipedia be ok?

Combined with the Master's Archangel satellite network, which the Doctor has had an entire year to get in tune with, this has the effect of charging the Doctor with the combined psychic energy of the people of Earth. This enables the Doctor to restore his youthful physiognomy and end the Master's control. As the Master cowers, the Doctor says the words the Master was afraid to hear: "I forgive you".

I'm guessing you were in the toilet or something as just about everyone else here noticed the Doctor saying he'd got into the Archangel network.

Just in case Wikipedia isn't enough for Stark, I humbly beseech anyone with the episode on tape (or whatever) to provide the quote for when the Doctor says he's been spending his year in captivity hooking up to the Archangel network.

Out of interest Stark, since you seem to have missed the bit about The Doc and Archangel do you think that the people just praying (for lack of better word) to the Doctor was what gave him power? Because that would be bad drama.

Yeah, magic loyalty that comes from nowhere and goes nowhere and has no explanation isn't dramatically weak at all. Are you listening? OF COURSE THERE ARE EXPLANATIONS. It's just POOR DRAMA. This is a minor point in the manifold problems of the episode, but you both can't let it go and can't even understand what I'm saying.

Fine spell it out for me. 'Cos you keep on saying no explanation is poor drama, then when you get an explanation you still say it's poor drama. So please spell it out for me why you find it poor drama.

Dude, they're fighting and being slaughtered by their alien overlords to save mankind from a destruction they knew all about a year ago. If you don't think this shows either a) massive double-agentry, where the whole thing was planned for ages or b) a sudden, complete turnaround from the goose-stepping goons then ... that boggles my mind.

I'm goin to skip this 'cos all I'd be saying is one word: Archangel. But apparently you're too stubborn to realise that everyone but you watched the episode and heard the references to Archangel.

Oh wait, lets not skip it. Here's a purely speculative speculation that doesn't involve Archangel as a brainwashing tool.
The guards had a whole year to go "oh shit, we made the wrong decision" but they're fucked 'cos the Master now has his funky Toclafance ready to kill anyone who acts. Not to mention that Tom asking Martha if it's true that she is the only one that can kill The Master indicates some rumours going round among the humans that The Master has some funky alien powers of survival or something.
They're also in constant contact with The Doctor since they're guarding him. Doctor was able to communicate with other prisoners to set up an attempt on The Masters life, so communicating in secret to a guard shouldn't be too hard. When does he get the chance? Well he looked all alone when the Master danced into to see him at night to gloat. And best of all the guard has the best excuse for why he's there if he get's caught: he's guarding him. Doc doesn't even have to give him too much detail on the plan, all he needs to say is "Trust me and say my name at this time then back me up when I smackdown the Master" and he's set.

So there you go, a piece of pure speculation that you'll probably hate more as it isn't backed up in the episode even half as much as what is probably the actual explanation, all pulled out of my ass because you weren't paying attention when you watched the show.

Christ, it's like you're INTENTIONALLY thinking like a retard. Yes, the Doctor etc were declared terrorists - and then the Master murdered POTUS, conquered the world, and killed hundreds millions of people right in front of them. Yeah, let's cover these guys, the old guy might try something - especially those guys who came in with the President! WE'RE HELPING, WE'RE HELPING!

Fine, simple explanation: Craven cowardnice. Glowy balls just vaped the president and now this guy is saying he's their master, would you take a potshot at him? When you're ment to be meeting the aliens diplomaticaly no less.
After that it appears that The Master is the only thing holding the Tocklafane back. They off him and Earth might get more than decimation. In fact that sounds like a damn good reason why they didn't do anything for a year.

On the 'old guy' bit, when they stopped him The Doctor was normal. Then the Master shot Jack with a laser and aged the Doc, add another point for cowardnice as this guy is now packing some serious tech and looks like he can handle himself.

I'm actually enjoyin this as for anyone else I'd have said "Archangel" and 'cos they paid attention during the important scenes they'd have agreed, but 'cos of you I'm thinking up new reasons that are still (kinda) valid.

It's shown that they're basically the only thing keeping the Master from being assassinated on a minute by minute basis - what, did they get a double dose of the kool-aid? The writers have to do this stuff themselves, you know.
I hear if a terrorist defrauded an election and once held an advisory post with the military, then you should follow them into a billion bodycount. Obviously: that's why the ep gave so much time to the soldiers as more than just goons with guns - oh wait, it didn't, they were mindless idiots under the command of Irrelevant Character Ten and then suddenly became heroes.

Since we're avoiding brainwashing a specially for you how does intimidation sound?
As mentioned above (and by other people), since the Tocklafane find killing fun I wouldn't put it past the Master to publically declare that if he was offed the the Toclafane would finish what they started with the decimation.
Maybe that's what happened to Japan. A small portion openly rebelled and the Master decided to make an example out of them. Given that he decimated the Earth as an opening move I wouldn't put it past him to wipe out a country for some of them rebelling.

As for defrauding an election did anyone else see anyone but the Doctor and the lone reporter (and she only figured out that something was fishy) figure out what had happened?

And as you yourself pointed out, the guards weren't doing too good a job at guarding him, letting Tom get far enough so that The Master had time to kill him (and IIRC the only part they played in the Doctor's attempt at the start was pumping regenerating Jack full of bullets). Maybe that's their attempt at rebelling without it being obvious?

[Stark]

2000AD, I'm off to work so I can't make a proper reply at the moment, but I'd like to say that I *know* he used the Archangel network ... to power himself up. He used his contact with it to absord the human prayers, using the engines of the Devil to redeem mankind.

This in no way whatsoever suggests he used it to reverse-brainwash the guards, and in no way makes it less lame that it magically happened between two cuts with zero leadup or explanation. Your other explanations are all much better (aside from 'looks like he can handle himself', to guys with G36s at point blank range), but I have to repeat that I'm not troubled by the event, but it's sudden, out-of-nowhere nature. It's *weak*, it's not impossible, and I'm not sure how many times I need to say this before you start listening.

[2000AD]

This in no way whatsoever suggests he used it to reverse-brainwash the guards,

I know, I said I didn't think there was any mention of it in the episode and that I was proposing it as an explanation for the guards change of heart that connects with what was said in the episode.

and in no way makes it less lame that it magically happened between two cuts with zero leadup or explanation. Your other explanations are all much better (aside from 'looks like he can handle himself', to guys with G36s at point blank range), but I have to repeat that I'm not troubled by the event, but it's sudden, out-of-nowhere nature. It's *weak*, it's not impossible, and I'm not sure how many times I need to say this before you start listening.

Well it's sudden and out of nowhere because it's linked to a twist in the plot, which by their nature are normally sudden and out of nowhere (though one has to question the out of nowhere bit as with the episode only half over and despite the Master gloating over his foiling of the Doctor's plan I doubt there's anyone who seriously thought the Doctor wont save the day somehow). The whole episode up to that point had been one big McGuffin with the exception of one scene and some dialogue.
So I'm guessing the question now is: Was it a well executed plot twist? (I'm guessing you're going to say no)

[Stark]

Yah, I was wrong about nobody mentioning Archangel during the climax. I'm just too terrified to watch it again.

As you say, it's just a twist - and part of my problem is that it never recieved any establishment. This is the finale full of asides like 'lol I designed a flying aircraft carrier', but they omit the 'oh yeah all these guys are like my love slaves' thing. And then, after being cardboard cutout villain soldiers, they suddenly turn around and not just abandon their evil ways, but fight to the death against impossible odds, following the order of people they were killing or keeping oppressed not five minutes before, with not a single frame making any of this anything but writers fiat. Even a single line about even who they fucking were - they don't appear to be UNIT troops, but some kind of Evil Master Death Squad - would have been far more effective.

Basically I think they wasted about 60% of their screentime on useless shit, and then just dropping bombs like 'oh they're good guys now' and 'oh yeah Jack got past them... somehow' and 'yeah the Doctor can do this ... somehow'. Did they even explain why the Archangel mind control net used the Master's drums of war beat?

[2000AD]

Did they even explain why the Archangel mind control net used the Master's drums of war beat?

Don't think so, though since he helped build it I'm guessing The Master chose it so that he could say that now everyone was hearing the sound of drums, just like him.

[Hades]

I just checked and as the Master said, I Can't Decide is indeed track 3 on Ta-Dah. Now that's research

I Thought that was such a good song when i heard it on Doctor Who I wonderd if it somthing by an exsistnig band or something composed by Murry Gold (i didnt catch line about where it came from)

Having just seen that post i've done a search of my audio files and it turns out i already have the album...... shows how easily it is to not know what you have when you have 4000 + songs

[Big Orange]

In Gladiator the Praetorian Guard suddenly turned on the main villain with seemingly little explanation as well, although those black uniformed extras carrying the H&K carbines maybe turned against the Master because they had family members who were among the one in ten murdered by the Toclafane and they were slaves themselves that were glad to see their nasty boss suddenly get totally overpowered then humiliated - another reasonable explanation is that the guards were overly ruthless goons who'd rather have a strong leader and turned against the said leader if he showed a moment of overt weakness.

[NecronLord]

In Gladiator the Praetorian Guard suddenly turned on the main villain with seemingly little explanation as well,

They were the Praetorian Guard. They went in for Emperor-murdering a lot. They even sold the post of Emperor on occasion. They were unofficially a force that knocked off the more cruel and tyrannical Emperors, while protecting the better ones. Historically, the Praetorian commander was involved in the extermination of Emperor Commodus.

They were the leading cause of Emperors dying for a while there...

[The Baron]

One thing that struck me as odd is how did the Face of Boe / Jack die if he's...y'know...all Captain Scarlet-y. It's been a while since I saw Gridlock, but he did die then, right?

I can see Martha popping up to help the Doctor whenever he's pottering around modern day Earth. Still, I'd have liked it if she stayed around, she was a good companion.

We know that Jack has an excess of life energy, he is seen extending others lives with a kiss - energy expelled from his mouth. When the Face of Boe powered up the city in Gridlock, he used the 'last of his energy', it was expelled through his mouth.

It's possible to speculate that had Jack never given up any of this life energy, or fought Abaddon, or kept New Earth alive using his energy and whatever else he did over those billions of years, he may have lived forever, but he did give up the energy on many occasions and this eventually lead to his death. That is my (educated) speculation.